Life Without the Gladiator

[gaminguy]

A few months ago I noticed something that had begun to bother me about my list building. Most of my lists started with Beast Handlers, a Gladiator, Swordsmen with UA, and either Acuarii or Gatormen with a Taskmaster depending on the warlock. The BB and Brute were almost as common. Worse, I was fielding Hexeris almost half the time, and splitting most of the rest of my games between Morghoul1 and Rasheth.

Being the contrary aesthetic that I am I decided to bench it all. (Except the Beast Handlers. I’m not that masochistic.)

Here’s what I’ve noticed so far.

Heavy Beasts:
I don’t actually miss Rush outside of Pathfinder. It took the thread on the Sentry before the why came into focus; the Gladiator and BB are the slowest beasts in our stable. The rest of our heavies can match their Rushed threat range without the boost. I also had a tendency to send the BB in by itself: my warlock frequently didn’t have the resources to throw Rush around (and I wasn’t taking the Shaman much) so the Gladiator was often stuck Rushing the BB and hanging back for the next turn. The BB will wreck a lot of face, but it can only accomplish so much by itself. A pair of heavies that can both commit at the same time can match or beat its damage output.

Light Beasts:
Without the Brute I tend to fall back on the Krea for its defensive animus, but the other lights have served me well when they’ve made the table. The Savage in particular has taken on things that should have been well out of its weight class, and even come out on top a few times when I had the right buffs. I’m beginning to think that the extra offensive capacities of a combat oriented light are worth more than the abilities of the defensive or utility beasts.

Heavy Infantry:
Cetrati are darn solid. I like the mobility of the Acuarii and the extra attack output of the Gators, but there’s something to be said for a unit that can take that kind of abuse. Even without Defender’s Ward on the table they do good work.

On the other end of the scale, the Ferox are so mobile it’s not funny. I think their MAT 6 gets a bad rap, with two attacks they generally hit what I aim them at. They’re not that hard to get charges off with either, and MAT 8 P+S 14 is pretty darn good. They’re flimsy by Skorne standards, but with Defender’s Ward I’ve seen them soak up half a Cygnar army’s shooting and still have men on the table, if that doesn’t qualify them as Heavy Infantry I don’t know what would. They’ve even managed a caster-kill for me with Fury and a couple of lucky to-hit rolls after Leaping over the opposing line.

Light Infantry:
I know, Nihilators FTW! Thing is; I’ve only had them painted for a month, so they’ve only seen the table on a couple of game nights. This is a place where I really think we have tunnel vision. The Karax and the Immortals both have their issues, I can’t deny that, but neither has lost me a game just by being on the table.

All I really expect the Karax to do is act as a speed bump; with reach they can cover a larger area or offer more potential free-strikes than Swordsmen in that capacity. We have a goodly number of buffs to offer them, and a unit with Reach and CMA is never to be entirely discounted. I do think they pay the “TyCom Tax” however (along with the Cetrati and Ferox).

The forum thinks what it thinks of the AG, but I’ve found that Resonance just isn’t that hard to manage for the Immortals and with Hakaar out “I need the useless AG for them” doesn’t hold water. Quite frankly my AGs and Immortals have quite a few caster kills to their names, and not just under Zaal.

(I’ll admit didn’t like the Nihilators from a conceptual standpoint; I don’t particularly like Berserk. They’ve exceeded my expectations, but not by so much that they’ll replace my Swordsmen as my standard unit.)

Ranged options:
I’ve never been one to discount some ranged firepower, benching my Usual Suspects has left me free to shake things up taking more combined-arms type lists.

I’ve never really understood the complaints about the Catapult, my games lately have done nothing to change my opinion. They’ve inflicted a fair amount of damage, kept high-def units from positioning too aggressively, interfered with opposing artillery (and frequently out-ranged it), and missed killing Eyiriss only because my dice don’t like me.

My Cannoneer has performed almost as well at range, and proven both more resilient and more competent in melee than faction wisdom would suggest. It’s quickly becoming my go-to heavy again. I’ve not fielded it in pairs or alongside a Rhinodon yet, but I probably will before too long.

Warlocks:
So far I’ve enjoyed every warlock except Morghoul2. I get why I don’t reach for the Makedas or Xerxis on a regular basis, none of them really has the flexibility that I like so much with Hexeris, but they’ve been a fun change of pace. Xerxis has more depth than I remember, and Makeda1 does what she does so well that her lack of depth doesn’t matter very much. Makeda2 is … lets just say that timing her feat is not as intuitive as you might think if you haven’t played her very much.

Overall:
I can say with great certainty that we can play without the Gladiator. I know I’m not going to win a major ‘con anytime soon, but I win about as often as I lose. I didn’t see any change at all in my win ratio after dropping most of the things I considered key pieces in my arsenal, and I think that says something about our internal balance.

[waspinator21]

awesome write up.

[equilshift]

I have to tell you, as s new skorne player (on vassal... I have a thin wallet ), I have never included MK, just because I want to learn how to win without him, before I win with him. However, I have yet to make a list that doesn't include the gladiator. Your post has inspired me to change that. Not sure what to replace him with, since he hits so well for so little (and the animus is great, of course). I guess I will just try to find the 2 points for a BB. Not sold on the Rhinodon just yet (definitely not without a BB backing him up, anyway).

I know a guy who runs AG's and I am not sure why people here hate them so much. Shooting them is easy enough, but with the Krea sitting right next to them, its not so easy to kill them off right away. Defensive strike is so money I can't even explain it.

Edit: If and when you have time, would you mind writing up a tactica on combined arms lists? Coming from Cygnar its been weird how little ranged stuff I put in my Skorne lists. I like a combined arms list with Mordikaar (him, cannoneer, extoller(s), drake, maybe shaman. Still haven't tried out Reivers). I don't have enough experience with it (or with anyone else) to write up a tactica on the subject though *hint hint*

[Triumph Of Man]

I know a guy who runs AG's and I am not sure why people here hate them so much. Shooting them is easy enough, but with the Krea sitting right next to them, its not so easy to kill them off right away. Defensive strike is so money I can't even explain it.

It's because the people who've used it in MkI know that its points cost went up slightly, and yet its abilities were nerfed.

Probably because if they had their old stats they'd be bat**** crazy in a Zaal tier. It's just annoying to pay the Zaal tax if you're using a different warlock.

[planescapedm]

Good write up. I play without the Gladiator more than half the time. He's useful but there are perfectly viable, and competitive, lists without him... and without Molik Karn.

[Avarice711]

I have to tell you, as s new skorne player (on vassal... I have a thin wallet ), I have never included MK, just because I want to learn how to win without him, before I win with him. However, I have yet to make a list that doesn't include the gladiator. Your post has inspired me to change that. Not sure what to replace him with, since he hits so well for so little (and the animus is great, of course). I guess I will just try to find the 2 points for a BB. Not sold on the Rhinodon just yet (definitely not without a BB backing him up, anyway).

I know a guy who runs AG's and I am not sure why people here hate them so much. Shooting them is easy enough, but with the Krea sitting right next to them, its not so easy to kill them off right away. Defensive strike is so money I can't even explain it.

Edit: If and when you have time, would you mind writing up a tactica on combined arms lists? Coming from Cygnar its been weird how little ranged stuff I put in my Skorne lists. I like a combined arms list with Mordikaar (him, cannoneer, extoller(s), drake, maybe shaman. Still haven't tried out Reivers). I don't have enough experience with it (or with anyone else) to write up a tactica on the subject though *hint hint*

lol Equal, you just need to keep watching me play. but in all seriousness, I love me some "EMorg"(That's right i'm rebeling against the number system) Tier 4 at 35, lose the tier at 50 cause it's a bit restrictive lol, plus that model is so BA.

I also have foudn venators even though a i feel a little over priced a worth while investment with thier UA, especially with xerxis. While they don't ignore stealth, they can cra and aim with minifeat to get quite a few of the pesky hi def models off the table

[Rhin0]

No gladiator that sounds absurd, haha.
I can see why you want the change though.
These days I'm only just starting to venture in 50pts, and when I'm not taking Molik.
I seem to be taking, Bronzeback and two gladiators for beasts. They really are a staple in any list.

But for now, I'm enjoying them. And I'll run them until i get bored of seeing the same beasts on the table.

[PG_lord tyrant watt]

Excellent summary. Ive started getting off of the Gladiator band wagon as well. Sure its nice to have pathfinder, and that little bit of extra movement, but, if you remove those models, Skorne starts to play like they did in MK1. A grinding attrition faction.

I recently picked up PMakeda for the first time in about 8 months to a year. I included Marketh, Sentry, and the BBtitan as my beasts. The Nihilators, Venator Reivers(which i have fallen in love with), bloodrunners, beasthandlers, and some support. Running through Savagery 3 times on my models made my opponent very frustrated. I cant even begin to say how good bloodrunners are with her. Advancing 13 inches with the Tycom and savagery, and then shadowplaying all over the place, they end up about 15-19 inches from where they started.

This year, i have also focused on Xerxis for hardcore. Running him and the Cetrati, along with a Sentry, Krea, and Shaman has really made me start to like Skorne again. In Mk1, i got into the Skorne for the attrition/grind/denial abilities that they had. Now, they lost the denial side, but they still do the attrition really well.

Today, im going to put EMorghoul on the table and see how he does.

[viperidae99]

Awesome write-up gaminguy, I'm keen to hear your experiences. I've been experimenting with the Sentry more lately, and having fun. I still maintain that an EMorgs ranged list has potential, using his feat and Ghost Walk to pull out of melee and blast as needed. I'll give it a try one of these days...

I always look at my Savages and wish I were using them, and they never embarrass me when I do use them. I find they're always the first to go though, when I need to compensate for a perceived weakness.

[Notorious_BLT]

I'll be honest, after reading the title of this thread I thought the post was simply going to read "Isn't worth living."

Seriously though, I had been thinking about fielding nothing but the Sentry, Cannoneer, and Rhino for my heavies for a while just to get off of my Gladiator & BB kick. You have inspired me to do so and when I run Naaresh (for the first time) tonight not a single Gladiator or Bronzeback will be seen on the table!

[Hasten]

I cant even begin to say how good bloodrunners are with her. Advancing 13 inches with the Tycom and savagery, and then shadowplaying all over the place, they end up about 15-19 inches from where they started.

I'm glad someone else agrees with me (emphasis mine) =). They're so great for taking out or tying up troublesome infantry. I started bringing them as Strider/Hex Hunter insurance (oh, how I hate Striders!) but have found that having what amounts to a "throw away" unit to just cause trouble and prevent elite infantry from doing what they want to be doing is worth every one of their points, and no-one makes them shine like pMakeda.

Ranged options:
I?ve never been one to discount some ranged firepower, benching my Usual Suspects has left me free to shake things up taking more combined-arms type lists.

I?ve never really understood the complaints about the Catapult, my games lately have done nothing to change my opinion. They?ve inflicted a fair amount of damage, kept high-def units from positioning too aggressively, interfered with opposing artillery (and frequently out-ranged it), and missed killing Eyiriss only because my dice don?t like me.

My Cannoneer has performed almost as well at range, and proven both more resilient and more competent in melee than faction wisdom would suggest. It?s quickly becoming my go-to heavy again. I?ve not fielded it in pairs or alongside a Rhinodon yet, but I probably will before too long.

Dropping the Gladiator and exploring our shooting options has been where I've been shaking up my gameplay lately, and I've noticed much the same thing as you regarding the Cannoneer and Catapult. My primary opponent brings dual Ravagores so frequently that it got me thinking about our own Cannoneer. I've fielded 2-3 Cannoneers (plus a Krea and no other beasts) and 1-2 Catapults in my last three or four games with both Rasheth and Xerxis, and have been shocked at how effective they were. Rasheth in particular is interesting with his feat bumping the effective blast damage pow up by 2 against most targets you're attacking with them.

It's been pretty eye-opening, and what I like about it is that I feel less required to charge headlong constantly. It's really opened up the potential to position more carefully, and thus made me miss Rush much less. I've also been including Ferox and Bog Trog Ambushers lately, and they can do some wonderful things on a flank. Coordinating the Ambush turn with running your Ferox in behind the Trogs to set up a big ugly flanking charge on your next turn has been particularly fun for me.

Cheers,

-H

[gaminguy]

Wow, that was a much more positive response than I was expecting.

@Equilshift - Combined arms is kind of a hazy term for Skorne, I tend to use it when I mean "it's not a token ranged attack, shooting is part of the plan". I don't know that there is really enough there to write a tactica.

@viperae99 - I'll do the best I can, several of those games are months behind me at this point.

I went back to the well right at the start and broke PMakeda out for the first time since the FT. The first game I took:
MK
Rhino
Drake
Beast Handlers
full Vens + UA
Ferox
Blood Runners
two BRMTs

I wound up taking on a Gunbjorn list with a Bomber, a Blitzer, two Impalers, a Swamp Troll, two Thumpers, and min unit each of Scatter Gunners and Fenn Blades.

There was a water feature running from the right to the middle of the board, and some forest on the left. He set up the Scatter Gunners and Fenns to the left, and lined all his trolls up behind the water with the Thumpers on either end. I set the Ferox to hunt down the Scatter Gunners, the beasts near the center, the Venators down the right, and the Blood Runners on the far right flank to go engage the Thumpers if they could get that far.

His first turn was mostly getting into position (he had trenches as a Tier bonus IIRC), I threw Savagery at the Ferox and DW on MK and advanced with most of the list. The Ferox leapt into the Scattergunners. They would chew up the gunners and the Fenns over the next two turns, and mostly take them out of the game (mostly die in the process.)

The next two turns were largely jockying for position, the Venators managed some damage on one of the light Trolls, I seriously underestimated how big of a boost snipe is and lost some of the Blood Runners and the Venators. My third turn I forgot that A) BRMTs have Sprint and B) Thumpers have Momentum; between them it let an unengaged Thumper slam my Drake over Makeda. The Swamp Troll promptly drug her into range of the two Dires and that was game.

Even though I lost this game, it did tell me that I was right to bench some things. I was entirely too sloppy with my placement since I'm so used to the protection a Brute provides. I let myself get intimidated by having 5 trolls on the other side of the table so I didn't play my heavies aggresively enough, and with the water feature in the way I didn't have a handle on what my threat ranges would be without Pathfinder. I'd love to be able to play that game over now.

[gaminguy]

Second game was a far more traditional PMakeda list:

Sentry
Cannoneer
Krea
Beast Handlers
Cetrati
Karax
Immortals
AG
Agonizer
I seem to recall having Marketh as well.

The other guy had:
PKreuger
Two Wold Wardens
Gnarlhorn
Full Druids with UA
Wolf Riders
LotF
I think he might have had the Guardian and mini-wold-shrimp unit as well.

He put one Wold Center, one on the left flank to advance through the forrest on that side, the Gnarlhorn on the other flank with the wolf riders. Druids were just right of the center Wold and the shrimps were just behind. The LotF also went to the left flank.

I put the Sentry and Cannoneer together in the center (Sentry on the left) with the Aggy right behind them. Makeda positioned a few inches further back. The Cetrati took the right flank backed up by the Krea, and the Karax led the Immortals on the left.

We both advanced on turn one, I put DW on the Cetrati and Savagery on the Karax, the Immortals ran to keep up.

Turn two, the Cetrati took the charge of the Wolf Riders with hardly a scratch and almost obliterated them in return, while the LotF ate most of the Karax and then died to the AG. The Cannoneer lofted a shot at the Druids, and clipped a shrimp or two while the Gnarlhorn and Wolds got into position.

Turn three the Gnarlhorn severely hurt the Cannoneer, but didn't kill it, while the Sentry was fished by the druids and shot by the center Wold for little damage. Kreuger popped feat to hold up the Immortals as well, although they promptly ran around the clouds. Meanwhile the Cetrati charged into the Gnarlhorn and flattened it, the Cannoneer took another shot into the Druids (which skatered badly) and the Sentry got enraged and then crushed the center Wold.

Turn four the Wold on the left advanced to put some damage on my support section and block the Immortal's line to Kreuger. The Druids (and shrimp IIRC) finally offed the Cannoneer. The Sentry (apparently feeling his oats at this point) charged and killed the other Wold, which freed up the Immortals and AG. They charged into Kreuger. He had Flight up and I had Carnage up, so I needed 8's and 9's to hit. The AG clipped him for half his damage, out of six Immortals one more clipped him for the win. (Kreuger was well close enough for his melee run, it probably would have been game over if I'd missed with all the Immortals.)

Lessons from this game: PMak has a feat, I must remember to use it. Also, killing LotF should be top priority if I can put a shot on him. Aside from those obvious things, the Sentry is really pretty good. It took quite a few attacks and just kept going, and dropped two Wold Wardens which are one of the toughest beasts the game has to offer. Diminish actually proved useful this game, without it the Gnarlhorn would have killed the Cannoneer and left the Druids free to go after the Sentry instead.

[gaminguy]

Third game was an MM/TC, EMorg with MK, a Shaman, and a Savage, up against Grimm with an EBDT, an Impaler, and an Axer.

I don't remember all the details of that game, but I spent a lot of time shuffling Ghost Walk around for the amount of forrests on the board, right up until I tried to upkeep it. Oops.

The Impaler and Shaman traded shots several times, he put out his Axer to bait me into charge range of the EBDT, I killed it with the Savage (which is not what I think he was expecting would happen), and the EBMT killed it.

Grimm popped feat, and EMorg was barely able to get into range to Blind the EBMT. He made a couple of attacks and half killed it besides, which really surprised me. I hadn't considered how effective he could be on lower armored targets. MK also barely made it into range, then side stepped twice to get to the damaged Impaler which he promptly murdered. I decided that no matter how small a threat a blinded EBDT represented, it was a bigger threat than a dead one so I risked a frenzy on the next turn to finish it off.

Really should have been game over there, but we both forgot that killing all Jacks/Beasts is a win condition in MMGTC. Without any beasts left Grimm took a hail mary run at EMorg, then EMorg cut him down.

EMorg is actually fun in small games like this one where his abilities can effect a big chunk of your army and his personal stabby-ness can have a proportionally bigger effect on the game.

I also played a 35 point game against Scavernous that I don't remember the details of, besides that TK and Croe's Cut Throats is a mean combo and that Gorman DeWolfe is near the top of my hit list. I think I would have had a shot that game if I'd remembered that Ghost Walk grants immunity to Free Strikes (I could have got my Nihilators into Croe and co.) and I'd managed to off Gorman. A Blind EMorg is a dead EMorg.

[iveysdad]

aren't we all due for a complete overhaul in our lists next month anyway? i give you props for getting an early start on getting models dusted off before domination comes out. p.s. i'm really going to chuckle when our new flying beast comes out and has an animus that rocks and makes us all have an even harder time figuring out what to play, beast-wise. and when molik and bb get nerfed and the glad becomes our new champion goto beast... who knows what's in store for us, but i do know that morg2 can only get better... hopefully

[dboeren]

Sure its nice to have pathfinder, and that little bit of extra movement, but, if you remove those models, Skorne starts to play like they did in MK1. A grinding attrition faction.

I don't know if I can fully agree with this, because in MkI our beasts had +2 speed on their charges all the time. For me, that was a big defining factor of the MkI Skorne playstyle, so I kind of feel like Rush is necessary to make them play like MkI (not that they entirely do even with Rush but that's a separate conversation).

I recently picked up PMakeda for the first time in about 8 months to a year. I included Marketh, Sentry, and the BBtitan as my beasts. The Nihilators, Venator Reivers(which i have fallen in love with), bloodrunners, beasthandlers, and some support. Running through Savagery 3 times on my models made my opponent very frustrated. I cant even begin to say how good bloodrunners are with her. Advancing 13 inches with the Tycom and savagery, and then shadowplaying all over the place, they end up about 15-19 inches from where they started.

I still think Makeda's a great warlock with a diverse toolbox of abilities. I played my unit of Bloodrunners last night under Naaresh and I can see how great they'd be under Savagery, especially for taking out ranged units. Mine ate most of a unit of Winterguard Riflemen, and if they'd been able to all commit at once with a 13" walk we'd have gotten them all and still been looking for dessert.

I'm also willing to run with Immortals, and don't mind taking Hakaar to help them, it just doesn't seem like a big sacrifice. They're not awesome, nor are they cheap, but they're good enough to be usable. Still not so fond of Karax though. Funny, I thought I was sort of avoiding the "flavor of the month" just by continuing to use Praetorians and not always packing Nihilators (who I feel are good, but a bit overrated).

I'd like to get in some more games with Naaresh before jumping to other warlocks again, but I field pretty much everyone except eMorghoul, who is reserved strictly for small Mangled Metal games. Not really that big a fan of eMakeda either. She works, I have no argument with that, but she doesn't seem that exciting to me.

[computertrucker]

Hmm BB and Molik getting nerfed? why would that happen? Wrath came out and didnt nerf any jacks like the Deathjack, the Avatar, Or the reckoner... dont see any nerfs, just more options.

[gaminguy]

aren't we all due for a complete overhaul in our lists next month anyway? i give you props for getting an early start on getting models dusted off before domination comes out. p.s. i'm really going to chuckle when our new flying beast comes out and has an animus that rocks and makes us all have an even harder time figuring out what to play, beast-wise. and when molik and bb get nerfed and the glad becomes our new champion goto beast... who knows what's in store for us, but i do know that morg2 can only get better... hopefully

Yes we are, and it's had us all thinking about and discussing our roster lately. (And more options certainly won't make EMorg worse.)

Ask someone what they want in the next book, and they will probably list things to fix what they perceive as the weaknesses in their faction right now. After playing for a while without some of the "power pieces", I doubt we will see anything that looks like a magic bullet for anything on the problem unit list.

I think that's been an unexpected side-benefit of shaking up my lists; if you ask me what needs addressed today I will give you a different answer than I would have four months ago. Back then I'd have said design dependence on the +2 speed from Rush, MAT 5 heavies, EMorg being unplayably flawed, and possibly a lack of infantry capable of cracking real armor. Today I'm not saying those things. I still think EMorg needs a little bit of a boost, but I find myself itching to field him again after reflecting on the games that didn't go so well.

As to what I think the faction needs today, I'm not so sure.

I really want some denial again, that was part of what attracted me to Skorne in the first place.

I want more native pathfinder (or similar abilities) on beasts, I think that would reduce dependence on Rush more than Bounding would.

I'd really like to see some upkeep protection abilities (something like a Souless Escort that can be burned to protect an upkeep), that would be something neat and unique to Skorne, and very handy considering how many good upkeeps we have.

There are some specific things that I would like (an Alpha Rhinodon, a UA or WA for the Karax or Immortals or both, a master gunner type solo, etc) but they are more for theme than for any real weakness I see in the faction.

[viperidae99]

Sounds like some solid games gaminguy, cheers for the reports. Wow, PMakeda is someone I haven't pulled out since Mk1, should probably do that. On EMorgs, I dread facing Grim and always have to, thanks to a mate who loves him. His feat and DEF lowering techniques usually mean death (especially if Burrowers are about) but I guess at the MMTC level, it may not be as bad.

Both LOTF and Gorman are two of my most hated models, that you see once and immediately add to the top of the hit list. Methinks Venators and Cannoneer might make new additions to my Xerxis list, as I constantly bemoan my lack of ranged when I need it. Any new underrated favourites based on games so far?

I really want some denial again, that was part of what attracted me to Skorne in the first place.

Totally agree.

[Avarice711]

I still love playing emorg, he is so much fun if you ask me especially when someone put's 2 heavies next to each other and u blind them boht while standing right in front of them, then walk away 9" withe fate weaver and press forward to base thier caster with your feat up. it's mm mmm good.

oh and PS I love the freaking model.

[PG_lord tyrant watt]

I don't know if I can fully agree with this, because in MkI our beasts had +2 speed on their charges all the time. For me, that was a big defining factor of the MkI Skorne playstyle, so I kind of feel like Rush is necessary to make them play like MkI (not that they entirely do even with Rush but that's a separate conversation).
.

Not sure what you mean here? In MK1, you couldnt charge through rough terrain, so the if you didnt have pathfinder, the +2 SPD was useless.

I mean, up untill Metamorphosis, Skorne had no pathfinder or ghost walk like abilities. They moved slow, and played attrition every game. Thats why pieces like the Krea, Cannonneer, and Drake were so good. They denied the enemy charges, and protected your models from the enemy. Then once engaged, Skorne would take the hit, and then hit more accurately in combat than anyone else, and would destroy anything in combat with them.

[dboeren]

That's true, you couldn't charge through rough terrain. But only a portion of the table was rough terrain, and you knew where it was ahead of time (barring certain spells, etc...) so you could try to avoid it. I frequently got to make long charges with my beasts, and if you dredge up posts from that time period you'll see a lot of talk about it. Sometimes terrain will be a problem, but frequently it wasn't, and opposing models had the same difficulty if they didn't have Pathfinder.

[gaminguy]

Sounds like some solid games gaminguy, cheers for the reports.

...

Any new underrated favourites based on games so far?

Welcome. I have four more to write up, I'd have five but for the life of me I can't remember what I played against in my last EMorg game. (I took the PMak list from my second game and swapped EMorg in, that didn't work out very well.)

New underrated favorites? ...just the Cannoneer, I liked a lot of unpopular models already (I just wasn't finding spaces for them in my lists). Maybe the BRMT too, once it occured to me you can use Sprint to get deeper into a unit rather than running away from it. I've started thinking of it as a micro-tarpit, if it actually kills more that two or three models that's just gravy.

On the speed boost we used to have on Enrage: I'd sort of forgotten that you had to charge or slam to use it, and that any rough terrain stopped charges and slams. That was a pretty big deal, you could't get that +2" to advance and then shoot like we can now.

--------------------------

Sixth game was Xerxis:
Rhinodon
Savage x2
Beast Handlers
Catapult x2
Cetrati
Ferox
Nihilators

Up against Retribution:
Ozy (their new Caster)
Discordia
Griffin? (The one with Arcane Accumulator)
Stormfall Archers x2
Mage Hunter Strike Force + UA
Sentinals + UA
Arcanists x2
Annya and Holt

He set up the Strike Force in some woods on the left flank, supported by Stormfalls and Discordia, Sentinals in the middle, the Griffin and the other Stormfalls on the right, Ozy more or less centered up with Annya and Holt.

I set a Catapult on either flank, then from left to right the Ferox, Nihilators, Savage, Cetrati, and the other Savage. (The first Savage was right around the center line.). The Rhinodon set up behind the Cetrati along with Xerxis and the PGs.

First turn he advanced just about everything, his Stormfalls both targetted my Catapults and both were short. Ozy cast his "secondary AoE on a hit" spell on the Stormfalls and Prescience on his battlegroup. Xerxis was actually penned in by my setup (a mistake I learned from for the next game) but he Press Forwarded the Cetrati, Furied the Ferox, and DWed the right-most Savage. My Catapults proved that they did have range, dropping a Stormfall on the right and a Strike Force grunt or two on the left. The Nihilators ran screaming at the Strike Force to screen for the Ferox, who advanced into charge range behind them. The Cetrati advanced in shield wall toward the Sentinals with the Savages on either side to attract fire. The Rhino moved up and to the right behind them.

Second turn started with the Strike Force and accompanying Stormfalls killing all but two Nihilators and damaging two Ferox. I'd left them too close together (I'm used to Karax who laugh at blast damage), another mistake I would remember next game.

The Sentinals and Griffon jockeyed for position, the Stormfalls on the right took a fair sized chunk out of the Savage. Annya and Holt advanced on the left flank and Ozy shifted that way as well, I think he was worried about the Ferox.

Rightly so, as it turned out. I'm not quite sure what I did with the left Catapult (I think I moved it for a better firing position), the right one killed another Stormfall archer. I switched DW to the Rhino, which advanced on the Stormfalls and took the lead from the damaged Savage. The PGs healed him for a couple of points. The Cetrati advanced again, and the healthy Savage took a position in the center of the unit.

Meanwhile the two remaining Nihilators killed a Strike Force Grunt and half the other Stormfall unit, then the Ferox charged in and killed another 5 of the Strike Force. Both units broke.

Turn three both units rallied, and Discordia walked up to kill two Ferox with his spray. The Sentinals charged the Cetrati; as I'd hoped, he targeted four of them at the Savage. A few of them missed attacks and by spreading out he only killed two Cetrati.

At this point I looked ober the left flank and realized I had a shot at ending the game right there. The Ferox still had Fury up, and they were within Leap range of Ozy. They needed 9's to hit him, but they needed 8's for anything else and he had no focus on him so they were rolling dice even. I didn't think they would finish the Mage Hunters so I went for it. The two remaining Nihilators killed one Mage Hunter that was in the way, the last two Ferox leapt onto Ozy, first attack hit for eight, second missed, third attack boxed him.

I almost felt like I'd cheated.

I did learn a couple of things from this game. I'm used to spreading out my deployments, but with Xerxis if I wanted his spells up I had to think about where things were going to go on the first turn and set up so they were not in each other's way. Spreading out to avoid AoEs is also important for Nihilators and other one-wound troops that are not blast-immune. Xerxis himself has to be quite close to the battle line, I'm used to larger CTRL areas or fast warlocks like PMorg that can get where they need to be to keep beasts in CTRL range. I played Xerxis too far back, and there was at least one point where I couldn't charge something because Xerxis couldn't get far enough forward.

[gaminguy]

Seventh game was the same Xerxis list, up against Seige:
Two Defenders (one marshalled by the Gunmages)
Gun Mages with UA
B13th
Nyss Hunters with Murdock
EEyeiris
Gorman
Strangeways
Squire
Journeyman
Reinholt

It was actually the same board as the prior game too, the Nyss set up in the forest on the left, the Gunmages set up in the middle with a Defender on either side, and Seige, Gorman, Strangeways, the Squire, and the Journeyman mixed in. The B13th set up on the right flank.

I set up one Catapult in the center and the other on the far left, the Cetrati and Nihilators set up to advance first turn between them, Xerxis and his battle group spread behind, and the Ferox just right of center.

He ADed EEyieris on the far left.

First turn he advanced pretty much everything and Siege got Arcane Shield, he was out of range to do much else.

I opened with two Catapult shots at EEyieris. One clipped her, but I rolled poorly for damage and didn't kill her. I think that put my opponent back on his heals a bit though. The Ferox got Defender's Ward (they were on the other side of the board from EEyieris) and ran to threaten the B13th. Two of them ended up on a hill toward the middle of the board. The Nihilators ran to screen the Cetrati a bit, who advanced and Shield Walled in turn. The beasts advanced as well, one Savage behind the Cetrati, the Rhino just behind them to the Right, and the other Savage flanking to the right.

Turn two saw half the Cygnar army blast away at the Ferox, the B13th, both Defenders, Gunmages and Seige all fired on them, and when the smoke cleared two were left standing. Gorman backed out of their leap range, apparently aware of his reputation with the Skorne. The Nyss advanced and Murdock used Go To Ground so I couldn't hurt them with the Catapults. He also backed EEyieris out of their range.

Xerxis dropped DW on the Ferox and recast it on the Nihilators hoping to draw her back out, and advanced after using Press Forward on the Cetrati again. The Ferox charged the B13th, killing one of them, while the Catapults took pot-shots at EEyieris again. (They probably would have been better spent on the Gunmages, but I was a bit worried about shots scattering back into the Nihilators.). The Nihilators advanced again, trying to block charge lanes to the Cetrati, who advanced behind them along with Xerxis and his beasts.

Third turn opened with EEyieris sticking her nose back out to drop DW and the Gunmages killing about half the Nihilators. Then the Nyss Hunters assaulted into the Cetrati, killing two. The remaining B13th killed the two Ferox, but they'd done their job. Seige sized up the board, advanced with is extra focus and shot from Reinholt, popped feat, and went after Xerxis. He really should have done that first, but it wouldn't have had an impact on what happened next.

Two Nihilators walked into position to act as slamunition, one in B2B with Seige (his attack connected but failed to do any damage), and another in B2B with a Nyss that was blocking my Rhinodon's charge lane. Another killed the Journeyman, but we found that AS would stay up until he failed to pay the upkeep next turn. One Cetrati walked out of melee with the Nyss to get out of the way of a Savage (promptly dying) which then slammed one Nihilator to remove that pesky Nyss Hunter. Xerxis then cast Fury on the Rhinodon, popped feat, and charged and Combo-Slammed the other Nihilator into Siege. (Even needing 3 to hit I boosted that.) The Rhino got Enrage, charged Seige, and at dice -2 easily crushed him.

It's harder to learn from a plan that went right, my first turn went much more smoothly than the prior game since I was setting up with an eye on where things would be going. My opponent admitted he had forgotten Combo Slam, but even if he'd remembered it was there he wouldn't have seen the Nihilator Slammunition move coming. He'd started with Skorne but moved on to Cygnar because he just couldn't get his head around attacking his own models for fun and profit.

[gaminguy]

The last two games were EMakeda, and oddly they were both red on red games;

Karn
Cannoneer
Razorworm
Beast Handlers
Karax
Nihilators

Up against PMakeda;
Karn
Gladiator
Beast Handlers
Marketh
Hakaar
TyCom
Nihilators

He set up the Nihilators, TyCom, and Hakaar slightly left of center, PMak in the middle, Karn leading the Gladiators, Beast Handlers, and Marketh on the right.

I set up the Karax on the left, EMakeda in the center, the Nihilators just right of center, the Cannoneer right of the Nihilators, MK behind the line, and the Razorworm out on the right flank to take advantage of the woods.

First turn we both advanced, my Cannoneer got Leash and his Nihilators got DW.

I left an opening that I probably shouldn't have, and he opened turn two with MK getting Rush and Savagery and then walking to EMakeda. He left 6 or 7 damage on her, and everything else positioned for next turn and PMak popped feat.

Realistically I should have killed his Karn and backed off to position for the next turn, with PMak's feat up anything I killed would be wasted. Instead I went forward with the Karax and Nihilators to clear a path for my Karn to smack his, and left EMakeda in range of Hakaar and a charge from PMak herself. What happens if a future Makeda kills a past Makeda? We won't learn the answer today. I took this one as a learning experience, I've only played her twice in MM/TC games up to this point.

Next game was against Hexeris, I dropped the Worm and Karax to get down to 25 points, he had:
Gladiator
Savage
Drake
Beast Handlers
Swordsmen + UA
Void Spirit

I set up Makeda with the Cannoneer and MK on her right, the Nihilators on the left, and the Beast Handlers behind them. Hexeris set up to the right, with the Gladiator off on the left, the Drake centered, and the Savage on the right flank. There were a couple of buildings and a fence congesting the center of the board, he hid the Void and the Swordsmen behind the left one.

First turn I cast Leash on the Cannoneer again, advanced Makeda (and the Cannoneer) and took a speculative shot at his Beast handlers that scattered badly. After having him poorly positioned last game, MK ran to get into a good position to threaten the Gladiator and the Nihilators advanced. Hexi Soul Slaved the Drake and advanced it, put some damage on MK with Obliteration, ran the swordsmen and Void up around the outside of the building, and advanced the other two beasts.

We were thinking roughly the same thing at this point: "if I can kill his melee heavy, this will be a really one-sided game". I opened the turn by eyeballing the distance, casting Leash on MK, Road to War, and advancing with EMak. MK took his leash move, then got enraged, then charged the Drake. MK took half his life and side-stepped into the Gladiator. It took four Fury because I couldn't roll beans for damage, but the Glad died. The Cannoneer lofted a shot at Drake, doind some more damage but not enough for the kill. The Nihilators maneuvered for position trying to minimize Hexi's feat, a couple took swings at the Drake, and left it with only one box.

Hexi (much to my surprise) didn't pop feat this turn. Some of the swordsmen and Void Spirit continued flanking to the left and engaged a Nihilator (that had me worried a bit, since the only magic weapon I had was on Makeda) and the rest charged into MK. They left him with 5-6 damage points using Penetrating Strike, I suspect if they'd combo-struck they might have killed him. Hexi moved onto a hill for the extra defence and healed the Drake, who promptly finished the off MK. The Savage advanced again on the right. I'd forgotten Vampiric Reaving (my local meta is so WM heavy I never get to use it) so Hexi was sitting on most of my Fury.

With my best chance at ending the game quickly dead, Makeda cut for fury, cast Road to War and popped feat. The Nihilators walked into the swordsmen and obliterated most of them, the Beast Handlers, and the Void Spirit. (It had attacked and missed the turn before, so it was vulnerable). Every Nihilator that could manage it took his last swing on the Drake, despite four hits he was still standing. The Cannoneer was a little too far away to charge (I'd forgotten RtW already), so I had it advance and fire into melee. It missed, but the scatter clipped the Drake, the Swordsman Officer, and two of my Nihilators. Both shots on Hexi's troops were boosted, killing the Drake (finally) and the Swordsman. I managed to roll snake eyes for damage on one of my Nihilators and the other made his tough roll.

(I'll admit that moment made for a good story; Makeda, irritated at her troops repeated failure to kill the Drake, ordered her remaining beast to deal with the problem. The Cannoneer advanced and levelled it's cannon at the scrum, and let fly before Makeda could clamp her will back down on it. The blast enveloped several of her own troops along with the enemy. "Acceptable losses" Makeda thought grimly, but when the smoke cleared the Drake lay dead, the Dakkon was obliterated, and her own troops looked around, dazed but otherwise unhurt. The Cannoneer grunted in satisfaction and turned to look for the next target. Makeda gave the beast a stunned moment's consideration, "that one deserves a treat later" crossing her mind briefly before she turned her attention back to the enemy.)

With just only a couple of Beast Handlers and a Savage left, Hexeris threw another obliteration which hurt Makeda a little, and advanced the Savage to block charges. Makeda took the challenge, casting Engin of Distruction and killing the Savage. The Nihilators ran to engage Hexi.

Hexi finally popped his feat, trying to send the Nihilators back at Makeda, but one made his tough check and the other failed to inflict any damage. Hexi threw another oblit at Makeda which was transfered away, then he conceded in the face of EMak in easy EoD range.

[Yzor]

Fantastic battle reports. I have found my Gladiator lagging behind lately so I am considering dropping him. Rush is great, but he can't Rush himself then run and I have better uses for my caster's Fury then casting Rush on my Glad. When it does get into combat it's devastating though. My last game pMorghoul spend 5 turns on fire so my Gladiator was merely a transfer target for all that damage.

[Hasten]

Rush is great, but he can't Rush himself then run and I have better uses for my caster's Fury then casting Rush on my Glad.

Bear in mind though that the Gladiator can Rush another warbeast (or himself) and then charge at an opponent's piece across the board. You can even make the charge free with Enrage if for some reason you need to do that (I can't think why you would, but still). That's almost as good as a run with a Titan: 7" move instead of an 8" one. If he's Rushing himself, make that a 9" move, which is longer than you'd be able to run anyways.

This is an especially useful thing to do with a Krea, incidentally, when you want to protect infantry with Paralytic Aura. Popping her animus and then charging will let the Krea cover 9" instead of 6", which is enough to keep up with Cetrati making a full advance with Press Forward up.

Just a thought -- hope it helps!

-H

[dboeren]

Or you can cast Rush and then Slam which is inherently free and the same distance, just in case your Paingivers have something better to do.

[Hasten]

Or you can cast Rush and then Slam which is inherently free and the same distance, just in case your Paingivers have something better to do.

Yeah, you know, that works too =P.

-H

[gaminguy]

Wait, when did a Gladiator sneak into my thread?

[Gargamel]

Wait, when did a Gladiator sneak into my thread?

Your 8th and 9th games.

[gaminguy]

Your 8th and 9th games.

I thought I killed it before it could do too much damage. ...oooh; I just got Hexeris' Gladiator, PMakeda's is still in here somewhere. sends Morghoul to go "deal with the problem".

In all seriousness, I was having the same issue as Yzor; my Gladiator had a way of acting as part of the support block rather than keeping up with the front line, and it didn't help any that Rush was too important to the BB to risk losing it before the BB made it into combat.

[Mnkylord]

Or you can cast Rush and then Slam which is inherently free and the same distance, just in case your Paingivers have something better to do.

...and in a sudden, strange moment of both exhilaration AND shame, Mnkylord realized that he's an idiot. I've been declaring impossible tramples with my Gladiator for ages now. Slam, fool! Slam!

(though, technically, a trample is a little more flexible, since I don't have to declare a target. But still... )

[Valdenar]

We can surely live without a 'Glad..For example,in my Zaal list there is no 'Glad atm,and i doubt he will ever make it through.Many of our casters can play without him(except eMak IMO).

..But he remains our most solid non-MK Warbeast..

[dboeren]

The thing with the Gladiator is that he is both the source of a very useful animus (one of the few we have that is almost always useful) AND he is our cheapest beatstick heavy. I don't always need both of these things, but unless I want to spend more points I'm kind of forced to take him.

If there was a 7 point beast that fought sort of like a Gladiator (no, the Rhinodon doesn't count) but had a crappy animus, I'd take him sometimes to save points. If there was a 4-5 point light that had Rush but was no good at killing heavies I'd take him sometimes, especially when I was going beast-light. These beasts don't exist though.

If I'm running Zaal or Mordikaar or someone like that where I'm going beast light, I still want one thing in the list that can help handle enemy heavies. I'm not going to pay MORE than 8 points, the whole objective here is to fill this role cheaply so I can cram in more troops or Void Spirits or whatever that these warlocks want instead.

[Mr.chair]

Well, Zaal seems to be sort of the exception on what needs to be in a list. With last stand an AG or a cyclopes savage can usually do close to as much damage as a gladiator, especially in combination with your feat turn.

[gaminguy]

So I got another three games in this Friday. Mordikaar was supposed to be next on the docket but I spent three days trying to come up with a list for him and nothing looked like fun, so I pulled out my filthy gatormen slaves instead. (And at work that day a Mordikaar list just fell together, so obviously I just wasn't in the mood to play him.)

I'm not going to write up bat-reps since they weren't really Skorne games (no matter how hard I tell myself that my Minions are really just working for the Skorne), but I do have a couple of observations:

1) Beast Handlers are central to how Skorne works in a way that's hard to over-state. I suspect we're all aware of that, but it doesn't really come into focus until you play a faction without them. (I don't have a real second faction, and I've been playing Skorne exclusively since Mk I Primal.) I consistently found that my beasts accomplished less than I expected without the free charges and +2 STR, even knowing it wasn't there. Pow 17 doesn't look like that much less than pow 18, but that extra Fury really matters.

The freedom to cast defensive Animus like Spiney Growth and strip the Fury off or strip a beast after it passed a Frenzy check is really big too.

2) Skorne has really resilient beasts. The difference in DEF and ARM might not be that big, but in combination with the extra hit boxes it adds up. I lost the Wrastler (who is 12/19) to things that I think a Gladiator would have survived. A single Feral dropped it once, and usually a Gladiator will tank one (although not by much). That's something to consider as part of Skorne's playstyle.

Not major revelations by any means, but the insight seemed to be worth mentioning.

[Avarice711]

I know you talked about the cannoneer, it is a staple in my xerxis list, on feat turn xerxis can be an effective arm 26 vs warbeast in melee, it's awesome