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  1. #1
    Warrior arsuf476's Avatar
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    Default Thornfall Alliance

    So I am looking at starting up a hordes force to compliment my cryx and right now I am either going with the Thornfall alliance or Trollbloods, how competitive is thornfall? I like the models and playing an army of boars looks fun but I don't want to lose every game. thoughts?

  2. #2
    Destroyer of Worlds dboeren's Avatar
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    I haven't had any problems winning with pigs, I think they're pretty competitive. There's not as much diversity as with a more established faction, but what they do have is pretty solid and generally versatile.
    Currently playing: Farrow & Skorne

  3. #3
    Conqueror Velcro Shoes's Avatar
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    Just to add, here is a post of dboeren's battle reports while using Dr. Arkadius:

    http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ius-Chronicles

    Buddy seriously knows how to play this faction, I've read it like 10 times already and I'm dying to get more pigs so I can give them a go!
    Saeryn + Rhyas = Best gift Everblight could ever give me.


  4. #4

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    I view it as two sides to a coin. You have less models but you learn what all your models can do. Plus with less models means you have to buy less so its cheaper that way. And I love saving money while sending a war hog into someone's face.

  5. #5
    Destroyer of Worlds dboeren's Avatar
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    Early on it might be nice to save money with few models to buy, but it's not long before you're caught up and you're going to wish you had more piggies to drop cash on - that's how much fun they are, and the curse of playing Minions.
    Currently playing: Farrow & Skorne

  6. #6
    Destroyer of Worlds SalsaShark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dboeren View Post
    Early on it might be nice to save money with few models to buy, but it's not long before you're caught up and you're going to wish you had more piggies to drop cash on - that's how much fun they are, and the curse of playing Minions.
    This is the truth. The fact that I had to stop myself from possibly buying a 4th War Hog and my 3rd unit of brigands makes me laugh. Snout to face is incredibly fun.

  7. #7
    Brute Squad Devilsquid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob of Doom View Post
    I view it as two sides to a coin. You have less models but you learn what all your models can do.
    This.

    One of the things that made me a good Mercenary player was the fact that I used a smaller pool of models against a wider selection of opponents, so I had more experiance with my Steelheads against everything else, so I knew how to deal with things with the tools I had available.

    It's the same with the Minions. You have less selection, but you can learn how to do more with them.

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  8. #8

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    Ive noticed that ive become so much better of late with pigs, its continuous practice with the same models. My list has evolved over the last 20+ games to a carver tier 4... 3 wins and 1 narrow defeat in the last 4 games.

    My mates have noticed it too, i can now compete with experianced main faction players and have a good shot at winning.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by modefan93 View Post
    This is the truth. The fact that I had to stop myself from possibly buying a 4th War Hog and my 3rd unit of brigands makes me laugh. Snout to face is incredibly fun.
    Why wouldn't you want a 4th War Hog? Does not compute...
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  10. #10

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    My gaming circle tends to play 35pts competative, or 15 when teaching noobs

    I couldn't fit a 4th war hog into a list at those levels :-(

    And I need to leave space in the case for the flamer hog, sturm & drang and any other goodies we get

  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds dboeren's Avatar
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    I've managed to convince myself to wait for Domination before picking up the 4th War Hog. It all depends on what our new beasts are and whether they are War Hogs for the purposes of Arkadius's Tier list. I have high hopes that Flamer Hog will be considered a War Hog and I'll have good reasons to mix the two in my lists, reducing the need for a 4th War Hog. I may still pick one up eventually anyway though, in case I ever play multi-warlock games with my pigs.

    Arkadius can run FIVE War Hogs at 35 though (at Tier 2 with 8x Bone Grinders and Targ), so I wouldn't say that game size is a hard limiting factor.

    Good points on how a limited model pool makes you learn the models you DO have better.
    Currently playing: Farrow & Skorne

  12. #12
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    I'm trying to hold out on the 3rd War Hog for Domination, and the fact that my FLGS can't get more than one (which I already bought) is making that a lot easier.

    Sturm & Drang seem like they're the type to include a point cost reduction on beasts, as well, with Drang's emphasis on Goading beasts with +2 MAT. Maybe a reduction on Flame Hogs or something.

  13. #13
    Destroyer of Worlds dboeren's Avatar
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    Hard to say without seeing the spell list, it could be all unit buffs for all we know. If he gives a discount on Flame Hogs that seems like it would lower the odds of them being War Hogs and also qualifying for a discount with Arkadius. Not certain, but it would seem a little unusual to me.

    Both existing Farrow casters have some sort of discount in their Tier lists, but TWO is not a large number of data points so I'd hesitate to count that as solid proof

    If he discounts anything, I'd like it to be Slaughterhousers, and then offer some good troop buffs. +2" movement and Pathfinder for friendly warrior models in control area? How about Fog of War to help them get upfield without being shot? An Elite Cadre bonus of some sort? I think it would be pretty cool to do a 'Houser themed list but we'll see what we get.
    Currently playing: Farrow & Skorne

  14. #14
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    I was heading up to the FLGS tonight for a couple games with a friend. Went up to my hobby area, picked up my bag of Farrow...put it back down. Took my main bag downstairs, but went back up and picked up the Farrow bag again...but put it back down, went back downstairs and walked to my car with my main bag. I'm SO close to putting them the pigs on the gaming table, and need a nudge.

    My problem is two things, really, and I'm hoping that maybe some feedback from the players might help me get over it. First, I've read some of the posts here, particularly some of the Dr. Arkadius batreps and such, and it looks/seems like each Farrow caster plays a singular style. I realize that many casters in the game are like that, it's just that the two available Farrow casters feel so locked into a single approach/tactic with little to no ability to mix it up even a little bit. Part of that is due to the lack of variety with the beasts/troops/solos, I imagine, but what really makes raise an eyebrow is that the single strength is very obvious and apparent to your opponent...especially with Arkadius. It seems like it would be rather easy to gameplan a counter, because as soon as you announce which caster you're using, your opponent can predict your list and what you're going to try to do with it. Once you get past that unknown "I've never played against this caster and am not sure what he does" honeymoon, it seems like games would get exponentially harder to win. How exactly do you mix it up with Carver/Arkadius...or am I overstating/imagining the issue?

    Second, it feels like there are a lot of really hard counters for the stuff available in the Farrow catalog. Someone mentioned in another thread that Farrow have a big problem with high DEF troops, and I can theorymachine that it might be a problem. What about stealth? What about troop spam, since it seems both Carver and Arkadius typically run deep on heavies? It seems like the main answer is Razorback/Gun Boar AOEs, yet none of the list discussions I've seen really run that deep in either of those selections. Are those hard counters as bad as they seem, or am I overstating that issue as well?

    I really like the idea and theme with the Farrow. It's fun, surprisingly beat-sticky, and Arkadius looks like he would be very fun to play. I guess I'm just paranoid that after that first game where I catch the uninformed opponent with the new warlock's tricksy traps, he'll pretty much know "ok, he's going to shove 3-4 heavies down my throat with movement/frenzy feat shenanigans". From there, it doesnt even seem like netdecking would be required...he just has to tactically counter what he knows without a shadow of a doubt that I'm going to try to do. I dont mean to sound all doom and gloom, I just wonder if there is anything to these thoughts or if I should shut up and put them on the table already.

  15. #15
    Brute Squad Devilsquid's Avatar
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    Luper: Very good questions.1) Carver and Arkadius definitely do have strengths and weaknesses, and I think many folks like to emphasize those strengths as much as possible in their lists. What would your opponent do if you brough Arkadius with 20 Brigands, a war hog, and three gunboars, and shot you to death (Using psycho surgery to heal the gunboars). Or if Carver brought three warhogs and just rushed them at you? I think many folks get stuck in a rut, and are hesitant to take combination on the field that seem 'less than optimum'. I have a carver list I want to try that has no brigands in it. MADNESS, i know. If you play outside of the casters comfort zones, i think you'll be surprised at how many more options you have. 2) There are counters for everything in the game. While we don't have "anti-stealth", we have the Razorbacks (And Sturms spray). High def? Have your gun boar throw/slam something into the model to knock it down. Troop spam? You can only bring a certain number of bodies to bear at a time. clog them up with Housers (reach), and punch a hole through their lines. With the Minions, as with the Mercenaries, you have to play better and harder than the Factions, because you do have tools available for use, but they may not be the super fiddly ones the Factions have. Sometimes you have to bang a nail in with a wrench.

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  16. #16
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    Thanks for the reply! I'll admit, I probably wasnt being very fair in that I was comparing the pigs to the bigger "main" factions and, as you say, they dont have the same super-fiddly tools available (yet?) When thinking about putting the pigs on the table as opposed to one of the main factions I've been playing lately, it's easy to get lulled back to sleep by the convenience and utility those larger force catalogs have at their disposal. I get what you're saying about stepping outside the "strengths" to mix things up, but in some ways it feels like you are pretty severely handicapping yourself if you go that route. From what I've gathered, the theme lists for the two casters really play to the sort of strengths we've described, and at the same time offer some fairly amazing benefits that are hard to turn your back on. Other things (like Carver's elite cadre bonus to Brigands) also seem to encourage a bit of a "set in stone" feel to listbuilding.

    I suspect part of my issue is that my FLGS plays the majority of it's games at 35 pts. From tinkering around with Farrow lists at that point level, it is difficult to get in those "meat and potatoes" pieces that each warlock sorta demands, and still squeeze in side pieces like Housers and Razorbacks. For that matter, if I were bumping Arkadius to 50 pts, I'd be torn over whether to add a 4th War Hog or those specialist troops. Perhaps I need to stop analyzing the heck out of it, start banging that nail in with that wrench, and just see how it goes

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupercal View Post
    Thanks for the reply! I'll admit, I probably wasnt being very fair in that I was comparing the pigs to the bigger "main" factions and, as you say, they dont have the same super-fiddly tools available (yet?) When thinking about putting the pigs on the table as opposed to one of the main factions I've been playing lately, it's easy to get lulled back to sleep by the convenience and utility those larger force catalogs have at their disposal. I get what you're saying about stepping outside the "strengths" to mix things up, but in some ways it feels like you are pretty severely handicapping yourself if you go that route. From what I've gathered, the theme lists for the two casters really play to the sort of strengths we've described, and at the same time offer some fairly amazing benefits that are hard to turn your back on. Other things (like Carver's elite cadre bonus to Brigands) also seem to encourage a bit of a "set in stone" feel to listbuilding.

    I suspect part of my issue is that my FLGS plays the majority of it's games at 35 pts. From tinkering around with Farrow lists at that point level, it is difficult to get in those "meat and potatoes" pieces that each warlock sorta demands, and still squeeze in side pieces like Housers and Razorbacks. For that matter, if I were bumping Arkadius to 50 pts, I'd be torn over whether to add a 4th War Hog or those specialist troops. Perhaps I need to stop analyzing the heck out of it, start banging that nail in with that wrench, and just see how it goes
    I find that when building lists at 25 or 35, I wind up sticking Razorbacks in because I can't find that many other things to do with the points. I have had trouble getting the Slaughterhousers in, but that's because I hate going in a point or two short when I can help it, and with Farrow so far, I generally can't help it.

  18. #18
    Destroyer of Worlds dboeren's Avatar
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    I think you're overstating these issues. All casters have things they "do" and your opponent is generally going to know what their main spells or feat are. But how and where you apply these tools is up to you and you don't have to stick to only the most obvious lists or the most obvious tactics. Case in point - Carver. You can look at him and say that he's obviously supposed to be a Brigand caster and you have to bring a ton of Brigands. In fact, this works. You can take 20 Brigands with him and do well. But it's not the only way to play him. You can play three War Hogs and go the beast route with ARM 21 pigs rampaging around. You can take just a few Brigands and more Slaugherhousers who can be up to MAT 10 charging with Quagmire - now you're really threatening a melee assassination if just one or two of them can ever get a charge at the enemy caster. You can load up on AOEs with Razorbacks (free AD in Thornfall), Gunboard, and Targ and play the bombardment game with some models waiting to counter-charge. All of them work. Even with similar lists, you don't necessarily have to be predictable. Have you ever cast Quagmire on a unit of Bone Grinders and just run them flat out to touch and lock down enemy jacks/beasts? Have you tried the moving pig gunline where Brigands Hog Wild, shoot, then back out of charge range (or maybe forward if you kill enough) and Dig In again? You've got options and every game isn't going to feel the same unless you want it to.
    Currently playing: Farrow & Skorne

  19. #19
    Destroyer of Worlds Sacredsouless's Avatar
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    Also having a large enough collection for that stuff will give you jump on making tier lists. Coming from Cygnar there is only 1 Tier list that uses 2 units of Stormblades (or at least, one I can think of). That means I'm unlikely to run that Tier because there is so much more in Cygnar I could spend my monies on. But with Minions, and to a lesser extent Mercs, you don't have that many options so you are likely to double or triple up on stuff. I personally plan on 3x Warhogs, 2 max Brigands (though running 2 min or a min & a max will probably happen more often), and 2 units of slaughterhousers. I'm even thinking of picking up Gunboars for throwing and some boostable shooting. So right with the first 3 things I'll probably have more than enough for any tier they throw out (until we get new units of course) and enough that I could abuse those tier benefits (like 5 Warhogs with Dr. A in a tier 2 35pt game?).
    Come to the Pork-side....we have BACON!!
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  20. #20

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    I find telegraphing what my army is capable of to not be such a problem. Telegraphing what I'm actually going to do turn to turn is a bit more damning.

    You know what it means when someone puts down Arkadius across from you, but the feat can be applied in many different ways. Its an extremely fiddly feat, both you and they can do a lot to change how it could play out from moment to moment. And of course there's using it after a few beasts have activated to get one extra crucial shot off along with dumping fury. Stealthy things aren't as problematic if you get one beast in range for a Primal Shock, or just run up and hit it. High Def you can waste fury on if you pop feat late turn, or just slam things around. Getting Grasp on them helps too.
    I do feel like I need another tool or two in the box with the Doc, but I also feel like I could be doing more to play him better.

    Carver has very straight forward cards. They read: everything is now awesome, any of it can kill you. As much as I love Arkadius, its the BMMD that I want to field. With all my beasts boasting good spd and 20 or more armor and my Brigands becoming a credible threat to anything that doesn't require magic weapons, I don't feel like I'm pigeon holed. I feel liberated. I'm not locked into a single win condition and I don't need to babysit any model besides my caster to maintain a solid chance against whatever I'm facing. My experience with slow khador lists without too many tricks has taught me to rely instead on finesse on the board. Its less about what you have up your sleeve and more about how you move and position.
    The magic only thing would be a fairly serious hit. There are a few things the main factions can pull out that would currently make me cringe with the limited selection I have, but its not enough for me to fret over.

    I'd love to play a Carver list at 25/35pts with 3 gun boars and two full Brigs.

  21. #21
    Conqueror syanide's Avatar
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    ive played cryx for about 4 months now and have just started a pig army i dont find them as good as my cryx but then ive only played 2 games with them i won both. Plus u can add models from this force in with ur cryx as well.

  22. #22
    Brute Squad Devilsquid's Avatar
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    I have to say, of course they're not going to be as good as Cryx. Cryx has been around a LONG time, has a ton of options, and is a very strong faction.Farrow are less than a year old, have options you can count on almost two hands, and are a sub-faction of Minions, a sub faction in itself.This doesn't mean Farrow can't beat Cryx...just that comparing one to the other is rather unfair.

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  23. #23
    Destroyer of Worlds Beckman's Avatar
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    Cryx is probably the best faction in the game right now, also. So there's that. Legion and Circle are good also...
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