Who do you use? Character limited options

[jonconcarne]

So what with all the character limited things going on (and one that I might go to this weekend), I was wondering what other Cryx players think about playing for it.

What characters do you find the hardest time doing without? What casters do you run that you wouldn't normally?

So personally, for me the hardest characters in Cryx to do without are the Deathjack, the Withershadow Combine & Darragh Wrathe. I use Darragh fairly often at 50 pts, so that pretty much excludes me from playing Terminus & my eGoreshade build in the same set. The Deathjack is a staple for me with certain casters (with pGoreshade, eSkarre, Morty). The Combine is pretty much in every single one of my 50 pt lists, although I can do without them with a fair amount of casters (eSkarre, eDenny, the Coven, eGoreshade).

So if I were to make up 3 lists, here's where I'd start.

• eGaspy + Darragh, Combine, BLT & Banes, & maybe cankerworm.
  basically my standard eGaspy list, he gets all the characters and everybody else just does without.
  
  eDenny + Nightmare + Satyxis Raiders and Nyss
  Nobody else would really want/need Nightmare. Nyss give some ranged firepower.
  
  eSkarre + DJ + Satyxis Raiders + Gerlak + Pistol Wraiths
  Pretty much my typical eSkarre list as well, just running Pistol Wraiths & Bloodgorgers instead of Bane Knights & BLT.

Once I get more practice with Scaverous, I could see using him in here too in place of eSkarre or something.

Anyways, I'm just curious to here what other people's thoughts are and who they'd be running.

[Obeisance]

Personally, I think the whole character restrictions thing is total and complete ****.

Warmahordes is pretty much balanced. It doesn't need restrictions.

Consequently, I'll be showing lack of support by boycotting events running such restrictions.

[PG_Draxos]

Personally, I think the whole character restrictions thing is total and complete ****.

Warmahordes is pretty much balanced. It doesn't need restrictions.

Consequently, I'll be showing lack of support by boycotting events running such restrictions.

I agree with Obeisance except for one exception. My LGS is not very competative and we are starting to do tourneys that are designed to be silly and challanging. Friday we are having one that is Prime/Primal only and I want to run the next on as no Characters. Otherwise yeah I agree

[Obeisance]

What next- comp in Warmahordes? Pfft.

[BilesyBelcher]

Terminus - Darragh Wrathe, Madelyn Corbeau, Blackbanes and Withershadow
eGaspy - Tartarus
eDenny - Gorman, Nightmare, Deathjack

I havent play tested much with the second two restrictions, but DJ may move up to eGaspy.

[warlorddrax]

i actually like the idea of character-restricted formats. i think that it adds a new dimension to the game and encourages more creative army-lists across the board. i would love to play in the character restricted tournaments, and i might be running them in the future.

as for armies that function extremely well without named characters...

Morty functions extremely well without the DeathJack. her Tier list should be an auto-pick in a character-restrictive format.

pSkarre should be a second-pick because she also functions extremely well without characters. just fill her with Satyxis and Mechanithralls and you are good to go. (or maby just mechanithralls... lots and lots of mechanithralls...)

[Refyougee]

Personally, I think the whole character restrictions thing is total and complete ****.

Warmahordes is pretty much balanced. It doesn't need restrictions.

Consequently, I'll be showing lack of support by boycotting events running such restrictions.

*nods sagely*

[Sanctjud]

I second Obeisance's "Pfft."
Though, I won't go so far as boycott them. I do enjoy "something different" most times.

As for comp,...oh man, let's just leave it at most at the theme lists

[mox5000]

Agree with Obeisance, and it's made me not want to attend any events where there are character restrictions. I think it actually works to UN-BALANCE the game, as some factions rely more heavily on character units than others to create more competitive lists that can deal with multiple threats or situations.

I find Cryx is hit the hardest of my 4 factions (Cygnar, Skorne, Legion being the others), although there are legitimate concerns for each of the other 3 as well (B13, MK, Typhon for example)

Tartarus, Darragh Wrathe and especially the Withershadow Combine are all things that have high rate of use in my armies. Lacking the WSC can hamper a lot of my lists as they are such a great tool box and do things that can't be replicated by any other units we have available.

[jonconcarne]

Wow, I'm surprised at all the hate for it. Personally, I think it's a great idea because it forces people out of their comfort zones. You don't get to use the easy option in every list . Plus it let's you get away with the things that are harder to fit into a 2 list format for fear of the hard counter. The big downside to this format is that to do it well, you really have to have a large collection of models. My Merc army is hit a lot harder because of that. If I had a Talion charter list or more Steelheads, I'd be fine.

Anyways, aside from not having the Combine in every list, I don't think Cryx is hit that bad.

BLT can't be in every list. That means you run with different infantry that don't require characters. Good thing Cryx has that in droves. Satyxis of both types. McThralls & Brutes. Bile thralls. Then there's niche ones like Blackbane's & Soulhunters.

Deathjack & Malice can't be in every list. So roll with other jacks. My faves are Harrowers & Reapers, with the occasional Slayer or Seether thrown in.

[Syfer22]

I myself am not a fan of character restricted lists. While it IS true that it forces you out of your comfort zone (and you don't see Eiryss in every list, huzzah), a lot of the warcasters that I'm fond of generally tend to need characters to run well.

Terminus: Withershadow Combine, Darragh Wrathe, Tartarus, Madelyn Corbeau (not that big an issue, he's the only one I use her with presently)
Scaverous: Withershadow Combine, Deathjack, Gerlak, Tartarus
pAsphyxious: Withershadow Combine, Tartarus
eGoreshade: Withershadow Combine, Tartarus

More than Tartarus, it's the Withershadow I really want to have. Our warcasters are so selfish with focus that I have to try to grab whatever I can, and it feels like I generally never have enough to go around. Ah well, they'll run whatever event they want to run -- All I care about is getting my Cryx coin.

[DavidRM]

I see the character jacks as "upgrades" of normal jacks. Except Cankerworm. Who is just odd.

Deathjack, Nightmare and Erebus are upgraded Slayers. And Malice is an upgraded Reaper.

If I can't take Deathjack (the only character helljack I currently own), I just fall back to the Seether and find something clever to do with the "extra" 3 points. Or I rethink the entire list and build around Harrower instead.

I do miss Gorman when I can't take him, though. He's a hard 2 points to replace.

[Decade]

While I'm not exactly a fan of the character restrictions, I'm going to reserve judgement until I see how it affects my game on the table. When I bring multiple lists to a event, there's usually little overlap, because one is almost invariably Morty, and the only named model I use with her is Deathjack. My character assignments would probably go something like this:

Morty: DJ
eSkarre: Malice, Tartarus, Gorman
Terminus: Erebus, Wrathe, Mady, Rengrave (if I use revenants), WSC, Saxon

I will be honest with everyone. The idea of not having to see the elf-***** in every list makes me somewhat more receptive to the format.

On a side note: I disagree that DJ is an upgraded slayer. He's a whole different beast entirely. Also, in fluff, Cryxian helljacks are based off the Deathjack, not the other way around. In fact, DJ was first because he appears in the Monsternomicon, which I think predates Warmachine. Though I could be wrong.

[PG_Alviaran]

Actually, I love the character restricted formats. And I think the only ones who have a right to complain about it are Merc players. (Well, and newer players with smaller collections. But considering this is not the norm for most tournaments and is already generally only higher level tournaments, people are likely to have larger collections)

Cryx is NOT reliant on character. Certain builds are. If forces you to not play three casters who you feel MUST have the Combine and Tartarus. Play something different. Player a caster or a list build that doesn't need them. Honestly, I think we are pretty well off unless you see DJ + Tartarus + WSC as a required 21 pts in every single list you make. In which case, you are the exact kind of player this is meant to upset and force outside of your comfort zone.

Probably the only character I miss in Cryx in such a format is the Deathjack. And even then, I can play others like pSkarre, pDenny, etc. that I don't think NEED him. I save him for the list that I think gets the most out of him. Same with Tartarus. I don't just toss Banes into every list (actually, I don't do that even as it is). It's a crutch. Learn to play without them. It is the best way right now I think to upset the meta and keep it from stagnating. I am sick and tired of seeing the Black 13th, the Deathstar, Molik Karn, etc. in every list. It's frustrating because it's BORING to play against. Even if I have the right tools to stomp it into the mud without even trying every single time, it still isn't FUN.

And keep in mind this is someone who just ran the DJ, Malice, Gorman and Tartarus in Hardcore at Gencon. It was models I know and love. And I'm still in favour of character restricted formats.


But to the OP regarding my 3 I'd take. Something like this perhaps:
pSkarre - Gerlak, Ragman
eDenny - Malice, Tartarus, WSC (maybe)
Mortenebra - Deathjack

Sprinkle Gorman in one of the first two to taste. Other options that would require some shuffling:
Coven theme - Deathjack, WSC, Darragh Wrathe
eSkarre - Deathjack, Malice

And that is a first pass idea. The exact lists would take some tweaking. But I like this format. Hell, the way it forces me just to think about the lists themselves, without even playing them, is fun. I have to think and devise different ideas. Obviously, the tough ones for me would be the DJ and Malice, since I love those two dearly.

[gcflash]

DOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Warmahordes without characters, how are you ever going to play being that every Warnoun is a character!?!

But seriously, there is no issue with character models in the game. The points system and FA makes it fairly safe that a force consisting of only characters is likely to be fairly uncompetitive. After all most of the overpowered issues tend to revolve around non-character models (ie Banes, Winterguard though both are supported by characters but they are not the overpowered models in those instances).

The thing to remember is that Warmahordes is a skirmish game based on larger than life and very powerful characters. So taking them out can only lessen the gaming experience.

Cheers

[PG_JBFlanz]

Jon, I really like your breakdown as far as competitive 3 list restricted format is concerned. I am surprised that you are not interested in nightmare with eSkarre though, as at 50 points just having dj as a threat is not enough when playing against a competent player. Anyways, list flavor aside, I really love character restriction. In my opinion it is the same as restricting games to a point limit. Watching as some players crumble without their mega stars is funny, and I think players learn more and play outside the box a bit more. It was a blast making lists for gencon, and I cannot wait for more character restricted games! Best of luck buddy, and I assume I will see you in a week and a half?

[jonconcarne]

Jason, I'll take either a Leviathan or Seether with eSkarre as a second melee heavy, but the Nightmare can be an option. He's just a character, so that would depend on the rest of the lists. I don't know if I'm going to make it to Smackdown anymore though. Fiancee has co-opted the weekend a bit . We'll see though. I might be there for 1 day still.

[Nightsbane]

Meh, I think the entire idea of running tournaments with restrictions is born from whiners that need to learn how to play more than need for variety. Giving them what they want is not making them better...this comes from a guy that got beat all the time for half a year - year before really getting the hang of things and beginning to gain a lot of wins with multiple armies.

[Lawso42]

Wow. Why so much hate? Its just another option for an event. Anyways... I really like the idea of it, and I will be playing in my first character restricted event next month. So far I'm planning on playing Asphyxious1 with Tartarus and Saxon Orrik, Terminus with Nightmare and Gundrun, and Scaverous with Deathjack, Withershadow, Gorman and Orin Midwinter. Honestly, the only models I'm truly missing in all my lists is the Withershadow Combine, But with those 5 points I can actually fit other stuff I had been wanting to play, but never had the room.

-Lawso

[PG_JBFlanz]

Jason, I'll take either a Leviathan or Seether with eSkarre as a second melee heavy, but the Nightmare can be an option. He's just a character, so that would depend on the rest of the lists. I don't know if I'm going to make it to Smackdown anymore though. Fiancee has co-opted the weekend a bit . We'll see though. I might be there for 1 day still.

Make it there for hardcore and the drinks are on me!

[jonconcarne]

Make it there for hardcore and the drinks are on me!

I'll see what I can do

[drachenfels]

here's my options if i had to...

eGaspy with Canker and Tartarus - Grind down assasination matches
Scaverous with Malice, SLAUGHTERBORN and WSC - objective claiming
Mortie T4 with DJ - anti hordes

[Kommissar Golovko]

Darragh for me as I play a lot of Undead and the movement or damage mitigating help he provides helps a lot with them. Doesn't matter which caster. The other more often used characters by other players, I have not been as much as Darragh.

[Obeisance]

It wouldn't affect me too severely- it's harsh but I can play around it. The only character stuff in every list is Gorman and Withershadow.

Character units at 50..
eGaspy - Deathjack, Withershadow, Gorman, Darragh, Tartarus.
Scaverous - Deathjack, Cutthroats, MacNaile, Tartarus, Gorman.
eDenny - Nightmare, Withershadow, Gorman, Nyss, MacNaile, Tartarus.
eSkarre - Deathjack, Nightmare, Malice, Gorman, Withershadow.

Makes me realize how much character stuff I use.

Next Steamroller event is 50- I'm taking eDenny and if I can't make a decision- eSkarre too.

eDenny - Nightmare, Withershadow, Gorman, Nyss, MacNaile, Tartarus.
eSkarre - Deathjack, Nightmare, Malice, Gorman, Withershadow.

They'd have to share Nightmare, Withershadow and Gorman.

The problem is, both of my lists need Withershadow to deal with the Deathstar. I need the ability to strip Iron Flesh. eDenny is the most capable of going without it- because I can feat and arc Marked for Death for -5 DEF and just PEW PEW the DEF 12 WGI with RNG 14 Nyss. eSkarre also needs Gorman to help keep herself alive. And Nightmare.. doesn't really have a good replacement. However, eDenny has something that can run decently in it's place.

eSkarre keeps all the character stuff.
eDenny replaces Nightmare with Wrong Eye and Snapjaw. Then Withershadow and Gorman (8pts left) with.. more infantry? Makes my eDenny list a lot weaker.

Character restrictions are balls.

[warlorddrax]

i'm also rather surprised at all the character-restriction hate that i'm seeing.
... then again, i love having weird restrictions placed upon me. i think that it really mixes things up and keeps them fresh.

just for the hell of it, if i were to play in a character-restricted format, i would probably go with this:

Scaverous: WitherShadow, DeathJack. (T2)
Mortenebra: Derylyss... doesn't need any other characters. (T4) (usually takes the DJ at 50 but can do without just fine)
pSkarre: Tartarus, Saxon Orric. (Saxon Orric is autoinclude. Tartarus comes in at 50... DJ is recommended but i can do without.)

hmmm... i guess that i don't really use that many characters... out unnamed troops, Jacks, and solos are so awesome!

[Syfer22]

LOL Obeisance... I love how over the course of your one post you go from this

It wouldn't affect me too severely- it's harsh but I can play around it.

to this.

Character restrictions are balls.

[Baenre]

I personally don't miss the DJ in lists as much as i would miss Malice which usually gets a load of attention form my opponents vs the DJ. Still any of the casters can get away with different combos due to our extreme flexibility in lists. Some of our tiers will fill in nicely for some of the casters knowing that our opponents will have the same restrictions going in.

We at least have 3 solid characters to mix in with 3 varied types of infantry so our lists are not that hampered. I noticed someone mention wrong eye and snappy, whom i play with regularly in my lists along with Rorsh and brine.

The only down side as has been said is your own individual model selection. If your collection isn't very extensive this is definetly not the tournament for you. If you do happen to have a lot of units and mercenaries it can be a really fun tournament to sport some very odd lists.

[PG_Alviaran]

I think the only reason the DJ doesn't get more attention there, Baenre, is because if they don't throw EVERYTHING at him to kill him, he just comes back. Killing him can be so hard in the right conditions that I have many opponents ignore him not because he isn't a threat (he is often the single biggest on the board at any given time) but the trade off in resources, even for a turn, to put him down can be way too much. Send one jack to kill a Seether or Malice or need to find a way to load up two of them to take down the DJ.

I love the DJ. Nothing else garners such HATE from across the table. And what's better? Their hate often seems ineffectual!

[Obeisance]

LOL Obeisance... I love how over the course of your one post you go from this
to this.

"I can play around it" and "this is balls" aren't mutually exclusive phrases.

Warmachine/Hordes doesn't need what basically equates to comp. I've played 40k/WHFB on and off for 10 years in my city. And you know what? List restrictions are crap.

Just because I CAN play around character restrictions, doesn't mean I should be FORCED to.

edit:

The reason for my acidity on the subject, is that I've heard this may become standard for Steamroller 2012.

Sorry to divert the post.

[2LiveIs2Die]

I really like it.
What is the point of having a format that's suppose to show you mastering the faction if you play the same lists with dofferent warcasters?
sure, you cannot spam deathjack in every list but why would you want to do that anyway. Not being able to run the same models in every list truly shows mastering a faction. Last I checked running the bane box + combine + deathjack in every list wasn't using a factions options to the fullest.

My main concern would be gorman, for sure. I always run him. I tihnk some theme lists could be very good in this format because of the extra restriction.

[Lamoron]

I can't imagine SR 2012 banning characters, as that would just be beyond silly.

I like the idea of running a few games/tournaments without them, but banning them in SR 2012 is just crazy talk. There are plenty of characters we can live without, but most factions have a few characters, that certain casters just can't live without.

The Withershadow Combine: Terminus will never be seen again. This would be such a blow to him, that I can't see fielding him. Terminus relies on free upkeeps, and one upkeep spell WILL cost him a game without them. He also needs puppet master to reliably assassinate without a feat round to prime him. There are plenty of other casters that will be hit hard, but Terminus will be unplayable.

Bane Lord Tartarus: ... making half the lists out there unplayable seems extreme. I can see the benefits of forcing players to field alternatives, but removing him will cause riots, as people will be stuck with hundreds of dollars worth of models they cannot field.

Slaughterborn: He's a Bloodgorger UA, and without him they won't work. Since this format also bans Tartarus, and Blackbane's, our infantry options will be severely restricted.

A "no character" format, will leave us with Satyxis Raiders, Satyxis Blood Witches, Mechanithralls, Bile Thralls, and the odd Black Ogruns as viable infantry units. This will not happen, though I wouldn't be surprised if the SR 2012 rules had the option for non-character tournaments in an appendix.

[Obeisance]

You're misunderstanding, La Moron. It's not "no characters" it's restrictions. As in, character units can only appear once over your lists.

ie; 3 lists, 1 copy of BLT, Gorman, WSC, Deathjack.. etc.

[FeignLife]

Hahaha. I'd be totally screwed if I went to one of these events. I rely way too much on the WSC and Gorman, though I suppose that's kind of the whole point. I have to agree with Obi that the restrictions are indeed "balls". But hey, we're still not getting hit as hard by it as Merc players...

If I had to do this it'd probably be something like...

eSkarre: Deathjack, Erebus, WSC
eDenny: Wrongeye, Saxon, Gorman, Nyss, Dougal
pShade: Malice, BLT, Darragh, Madelyn

[Lamoron]

You're misunderstanding, La Moron. It's not "no characters" it's restrictions. As in, character units can only appear once over your lists.

ie; 3 lists, 1 copy of BLT, Gorman, WSC, Deathjack.. etc.

Hmm, that does make it a bit easier to accept, but not much.

[PG_Alviaran]

List restrictions are crap? You weren't here in MK1 where the size of the game decided if you could even play certain warcasters.

[Baenre]

I think the only reason the DJ doesn't get more attention there, Baenre, is because if they don't throw EVERYTHING at him to kill him, he just comes back. Killing him can be so hard in the right conditions that I have many opponents ignore him not because he isn't a threat (he is often the single biggest on the board at any given time) but the trade off in resources, even for a turn, to put him down can be way too much. Send one jack to kill a Seether or Malice or need to find a way to load up two of them to take down the DJ.

I love the DJ. Nothing else garners such HATE from across the table. And what's better? Their hate often seems ineffectual!

It's not that hard to rip a DJ in half to be honest if you put just a little effort forth. Not having reach is also a big deal when it comes to effectiveness of the DJ. Sure he rips up single models and i would never argue that but if your opponent is dumb enough to leave a high value single model within the DJ's threat rng then they deserve to lose the model. It's when your opponents throw fodder at him or find ways to remove him form threat rng or even find a way to charge him first.

I find when i play against hordes it's actually very easy for them to smoke the DJ off the table no matter where you position it at. With a local meta of nearly 45+ players we have a good 30 of them with hordes armies or strictly are hordes players so i face those kinds of situations often.

I understand what you are saying about drawing off parts of their army to deal with the DJ but it shouldn't take 2 heavies to down a DJ if you do it right.

Now some casters just scream to use him because of their spell lists or inate abilities and in those cases i would always sport a DJ. Specifically Eskarre and Morty just amplify the DJ's power to god like proportions. Otherwise i get more milage from a harrower who can take down infantry and jacks just as easily but comes with an effective rng attack to keep my opponents honest. Not to mention no KD against Hordes is essential since they love a good power attack.

List restrictions are crap? You weren't here in MK1 where the size of the game decided if you could even play certain warcasters.

Lets be honest about this and realise why they are REALLY doing this. It's because they know Hordes is Vastly behind on character choices in their lists due to them being unwilling to hold up a WM book to allow hordes a chance to catch up. Character models make a huge difference and they are trying the only thing they can come up with to try and level the playing field. A small supplement strictly for hordes giving each faction a few character choices would be a good fix IMO.

[Kommissar Golovko]

I don't think Hordes is "vastly" behind when it comes to character choices. Behind yes but not that far. The characters they have are quite effective.

[FeignLife]

List restrictions are crap? You weren't here in MK1 where the size of the game decided if you could even play certain warcasters.

Oh no. I seem to remember really liking eSkarre when I first started out and having to fill in 750 pts with my random newbie model collection and getting stomped hard by people who actually had the "correct" 750 pts for their epics.

To be quite honest, I like the idea of the character restrictions, and it has given Hordes players a much needed boost in Masters so far, but it feels sort of like a quick fix really...

I am however opposed to the whole "play a list once" part as I feel like it can turn some of the later rounds into toss-ups and forced bad match-ups, and would somewhat negate skill in some circumstances. I think I'm like the only person on the internet that thinks so though, so feel free to ignore this paragraph.

Regards,
-Feign-

[Temujin]

I am however opposed to the whole "play a list once" part as I feel like it can turn some of the later rounds into toss-ups and forced bad match-ups, and would somewhat negate skill in some circumstances. I think I'm like the only person on the internet that thinks so though, so feel free to ignore this paragraph

You're not. There's at least two of us now.

I'm against all arbitrary restrictions, as I feel it only serves to force people into specific builds. Right now, some people are gushing about how it adds "variety", but give it 6 months to a year as the standard format, and your precious variety will be gone as the meta settles itself into the new "top tier", which will inevitably be thinner than the old as it was born of restrictions and not expansions.

If there's a balance problem with certain character models or factions lacking in characters doing poorly, PP should fix those problems by adjusting the overpowered and underpowered stuff and adding characters to the factions that need them. Adding extra rules based on the FA:C tag is not the way to go, as that tag isn't the core of the problem.

It's a crutch.

Calling things a crutch is a crutch...

[jonconcarne]

Lets be honest about this and realise why they are REALLY doing this. It's because they know Hordes is Vastly behind on character choices in their lists due to them being unwilling to hold up a WM book to allow hordes a chance to catch up. Character models make a huge difference and they are trying the only thing they can come up with to try and level the playing field. A small supplement strictly for hordes giving each faction a few character choices would be a good fix IMO.

Yes. Hordes has less characters. Do they actually suffer from this at high play? No. Mercs have tons of characters, and that doesn't magically make them better than every Hordes faction. Character models are just like other models. They can make a huge difference, or they can make very little difference. The only thing is that character models in faction tend to be stronger than non-character models of the same point cost (i.e. they aren't always balanced very well).

I'm against all arbitrary restrictions, as I feel it only serves to force people into specific builds. Right now, some people are gushing about how it adds "variety", but give it 6 months to a year as the standard format, and your precious variety will be gone as the meta settles itself into the new "top tier", which will inevitably be thinner than the old as it was born of restrictions and not expansions.

Because this has obviously been proven over and over again. Using a format that causes somebody to not play different things in fact causes it all to be the same. Wait what?

If there's a balance problem with certain character models or factions lacking in characters doing poorly, PP should fix those problems by adjusting the overpowered and underpowered stuff and adding characters to the factions that need them. Adding extra rules based on the FA:C tag is not the way to go, as that tag isn't the core of the problem.

At least there's truth here.