Dawnlord Vyros Tactica

[NEoJoe]

Well in the games in question. Against a Guy at my LGS I played him 3 games over two weeks in league, both times rolling out my sentinels.

The first game he pelted the crap out of me with Widowmakers but I eventually killed them. Game ended when the Manticore decided to throw the Juggernaut at Sorscha and Kaelyssa did the rest.

The other two games the following week he clumped his widowmakers and I simply roasted them with an Eliminator both times (guess he misjudged the range an apparition+running chimera+ Eliminator can have).

I can confirm a report of Karchev getting hook-sworded in the face with my Jack in front of him. I rarely see a caster that can solo Karchev in a turn. Vyros totally did. Twice.

Also anyone who complains Khador armor can't be cracked reliably is nuts. Sentinels+concentrated power on a heavy = something will be knocked out.

I'm quite jealous. I've never personally killed Karchev with Vyros, good job. I actually never thought about Vyros' odds of killing the Man in the Machine, but after thinking about your post I realized they aren't as bad as my grim predictions. On all the average roll business, if Vyros never snakes, Vyros gets 5-6 damage per swing assuming Karchev isn't camping (Not a super uncommon state for him). At seven attacks, with one likely boosted, Karchev is toast. Plus factor in that the POW vs ARM nature of the game increases the averages in favor of the aggressor... but if Karchev is camping even one, things get hairy and you won't wanna go in unless he's been damaged already. I'm glad Vyros' group is good at that.

Also, you make me wonder if spending the focus on the Chimera will expand the Eliminator opportunities enough to make that spell more valuable to me.

Great writeup NEoJoe. One thing I would like to mention about Vyros fielding Gorgons. The combination of the gorgon's force lock ability and 360 degree line of sight. Not to mention the extra speed from mobility. So that it can run into tarpit units like pirates, or into other warjacks to buy yourself an extra turn or two to fire into other targets.

I would mention this had I tried it yet. Right now I'm not trying to discuss anything that I don't know personally, which is why I've also not discussed Halberdiers with UA in great detail, any Vyre jacks, the Aspis, the above mentioned Chimera, or other things. I did mention some stuff I've not tried fully yet, like the manticore and how one should probably play Invictors with Vyros, but I felt reasonably confident in my assumptions and made sure the audience knew I was spinning some theory with some small comment.

The Gorgon is totally something I'm trying soon, though I'm more excited to hook it up to the Sentinels. After Kallas and DesertSpiral talked about it, that thing with a huge engagement range, aim bonuses, boosting without spending my focus... all of that is adding up to sound pretty good. But I've still gotta test it. The results of that test will probably be posted in Kallus' thread, but I will do some Gorgon with Vyros action, and report any significant findings back here.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

[ucfan34]

A little talk about the first two lists. I hate that Eiryss is damn near mandatory for this faction. At 35 points, that's 3 points I'd really enjoy putting into my army and not just damage control. *sigh* One day I'm gonna suck it up and just not play her for 6 weeks. Hopefully I can come back and say "Guys, good news! We can win without getting rid of Spiney Growth, Defender's Ward, Crippling Grasp, Tenacity, Arcane Shield, etc!" But I'll probably just lose a whole lot.

Any though about putting an Articifer into the list. More specifically replacing Eiryss. I don't have eEiryss, so I haven't had a chance to miss her yet...

The Articifer would seem to be decent backup for Discordia's imprint. Negitives are it's base is smaller and it can't run and cast. Otherwise, seems like it would fit right in....possibly just until I get eEiryss.

[NEoJoe]

Any though about putting an Articifer into the list. More specifically replacing Eiryss. I don't have eEiryss, so I haven't had a chance to miss her yet...

The Articifer would seem to be decent backup for Discordia's imprint. Negitives are it's base is smaller and it can't run and cast. Otherwise, seems like it would fit right in....possibly just until I get eEiryss.

My friend's from Cincinnati.

Anyway, my games with the Artificer have taught me the standard stuff. He's hardish to kill. His melee abilities are impressive. The Force Barrier spell is good. He is slow. Magno Blast doesn't happen much but it's useful (used it to open a path to Gorten) sometimes.

One person said it well when they said Discordia is the model that protects the proactive things, Artificer protects the stuff that hangs back. In my games however, forward and back are defined by 'in front of Discordia' and 'within 2-3 inches behind Discordia.' And when my forward units really go forward, they leave Discordia's protection and are off on their own. Meaning the Artificer will be sharing targets.

Fortunately, their abilities stack and make one giant zone of middle finger. So I just gotta ask myself if I want to spend points on that guy... and I'll know the answer to that after more character restriction practice, wherein I might lose Discordia. Even if I don't, I'm losing some stuff, and there will be a point vacuum that needs filling.

For you, I can promise he's not bad at all. The pleasant thing about him is he's always doing something. If your opponent has a gun, he's probably helping you at least a little, even if he's just dictating they shoot some other sensitive target. Then between his own little ranged spell and competent melee abilities (beat back can really help him move stuff that's trying to c-block Vyros' charge) he's gonna chip in for the war effort, and that's nice. And maybe if you play him enough you'll be writing the Artificer tactica this site needs with all the nice info we don't have.

He's good for Stormfall Archers too if you run those.

[ucfan34]

Fortunately, their abilities stack...

Just to clarify...the Articifer's Force Barrier will stack with Discordia's Kinetic Field?

[Murkhadh]

Just to clarify...the Articifer's Force Barrier will stack with Discordia's Kinetic Field?

One is plus defense, the other is + armor, and they have different names. You wont' be double immune to blast damage though. :-P

[Kallas]

One is plus defense, the other is + armor, and they have different names. You wont' be double immune to blast damage though. :-P

Yeah you will!

...

It just doesn't matter a damn

[DesertSpiral]

It will if they ever relaease a model that says "This models blast damage ignores the first effect that would ignore its blast damage!"

[Arasaka]

Thanks for the write-up!

I don't play my Ret very much anymore (this will change when the new Myrmidons are released) but your advice was solid and your writing style enjoyable to read. Very nice!

[NEoJoe]

Thanks for the write-up!

I don't play my Ret very much anymore (this will change when the new Myrmidons are released) but your advice was solid and your writing style enjoyable to read. Very nice!

Thanks! This will be updated overtime as well to discuss Vyros' bad matchups and how to fix them, new tactics with existing jacks, and what the Vyre jacks mean to him after they come out.

[Eagle eye]

Just wanted to give a big shout out to NEoJoe and those discussing Vyros in this thread. Won my second game with Vyros today vs Skorne (P Makeda) and followed the advice here by letting my sentinels take all the hits until I got my jacks and the Fane Knight into position to wreak havoc and force him to go for the assassination.

[Bartacus]

Have always been a fan of Vyros, he was the first Ret. caster I played and I never feel let down by him. Would love him to go Epic more than any of our other casters as I think with some tweaking he could become an absolute monster.

Thanks for a great tactica NJ. Maddie is virtually first pick in all my Vyros lists, I don't tend to run Lanyssa unless I know I'm facing Legion as I would rather spend the points elsewhere. I also tend run my MHA's in pairs, cuts down the odds of whiffing on the crucial charge and I never, ever regret spending the points as it's not unusual to have my opponent divert 2 to 3 times the points cost to deal with them.

I've had a longish break from Ret. but this thread has enthused me to break V. out again and proxy some of the new Jacks (well Banshee at least....)

Cheers.

[ucfan34]

So...I've got a few games in with Vyros. After actually using some of the advice found in this tactica, thank you again NEOJOE. Definately some sound advice to be had.

I ran a 35pt Discordia brick (Discordia+Sentinels+IR+Artificer).

Thoughs...(didn't post a list so as to not become a list discussion).
1.) I'm liking the Artificer with Vyros so far. Contributed to the brick on turns 1 & 2. Then was acting as a Vyros Def buff from that point forward (MFer is slow). Got the O_o face in both games, when I said Vyros was def 17 arm 24.

2.) I find myself wishing I had an Arc Node. Adding a 2nd heavy at 35pts is too much. Looking at the Chimera with interest.

3.) I don't feel I played Vyros as far forward as I should have...pretty sure I'm laughably far back. Probably contributing to the above.

4.) I'm liking the free upkeep from Sylys, but not sure I'd keep him if I played as far forward as I feel I should be. If I had a Node I don't think I'd miss the extra range.

Questions:
5.) How long is your Disco Brick staying in tact?
5b.) How are you keeping it in tact? I'm finding my Sentinels outpacing Discorda around turn 2, but I've still got too many in the way to either get Discordia into the melee mix on turn 3 or use the spray without hitting my own troops.

[Kallas]

The reason the Sentinels outpaced 'the brick'? The Artificer.

At Arm 21 vs ranged, your brick isn't caring about half of the guns in the game. Drop the Artificer and speed up (Sentinels run 10", possibly with a 3" Vengeance move and Discordia imprints then runs 12".)

You're slowing them down for +2 Def against ranged which is nigh pointless at the Arm value they're running at. Having the Artificer trundle after Vyros. Yeah, not a bad plan, but don't make the brick crawl, even for a turn, unless you happen to be moving a very small amount anyway (in a Threat-off, for example.)


I'd suggest running at least one Phoenix with Vyros. I've been having a lot of success with Discordia and two Phoenix. At 35,you can still fit two Arcanists and a min unit of MHSF with UA and still have two points to spare. And having the extra range of an Arc Node for Stranglehold is really, really useful, especially if you have Sylys in tow.

I have to question this thought:

2.) I find myself wishing I had an Arc Node. Adding a 2nd heavy at 35pts is too much. Looking at the Chimera with interest.

What is the Chimera provide here? I understand the obvious cost 'issue', yet compared to the assumed list, it only looks like a weak link.

I assume you're taking something like:
Vyros
- Discordia
Sylys
Sentinels + UA (max)
Artificer

That's 25 (so maybe at this point level, a second may be too much) but if you're at 35, a Phoenix is a fantastic investment for Vyros.

[darkenn]

Id like to say; Bravo everyone, after reading hte great replys to an great post. I really am looking forward to trying him out again!

[ucfan34]

The reason the Sentinels outpaced 'the brick'? The Artificer.
At Arm 21 vs ranged, your brick isn't caring about half of the guns in the game. Drop the Artificer and speed up (Sentinels run 10", possibly with a 3" Vengeance move and Discordia imprints then runs 12".)

Admittedly, I have been trying to keep the Artificer up with the Sentinels. Although, is has been the rear. Specifically to cover the UA. Hence it falling back to Vyros about turn 3.

Bolded the last part of the quote for emphasis as I see this may be the issue. I'm imprinting after advancing 6", not running. Didn't think I could both run & imprint. Just an oder of activation issue I see. Working through these L2P situations makes me laugh. Seems so obvious after you say it. That should definatly, one solve the breakdown problem, and two makes sure the Artificer isn't keeping up if I try (so I wont bother).

Having the Artificer trundle after Vyros. Yeah, not a bad plan,...

Before flat out removing the Artificer I'm going to keep toying around with trundling. Just now I'll trundle from the start.

I'd suggest running at least one Phoenix with Vyros. I've been having a lot of success with Discordia and two Phoenix. At 35,you can still fit two Arcanists and a min unit of MHSF with UA and still have two points to spare. And having the extra range of an Arc Node for Stranglehold is really, really useful, especially if you have Sylys in tow.

What is the Chimera provide here? I understand the obvious cost 'issue', yet compared to the assumed list, it only looks like a weak link.

I assume you're taking something like:
Vyros
- Discordia
Sylys
Sentinels + UA (max)
Artificer

That's 25 (so maybe at this point level, a second may be too much) but if you're at 35, a Phoenix is a fantastic investment for Vyros.

I'll jump this over to a list discussion. Thread title: Vyros lists & Musings.

[NEoJoe]

Before flat out removing the Artificer I'm going to keep toying around with trundling. Just now I'll trundle from the start.

Someone give this man a cigar! That's exactly what you should do. Keep trying the stuff that you like. Listen to what people say about it (if it's troll gibberish it'll be obvious usually) and keep testing it to find out what you really think.

And yeah, 17 24 is pretty rad

Otherwise, Kallas hit all the points pretty well. The Discordia brick is pretty fast, shouldn't normally trod along.

I think I do need to address when the brick breaks up. It will break up, and you'll probably be the one breaking it up, and if you do it properly enough you're probably doing well.

Imagine Discordia a big beautiful mommy bird. The sentinels are her precious little baby birds. Mommy bird loves her baby birds with all her heart, but like all moms, she knows she has to let them go and live and become daddy birds and mommy birds just like her. But till then SHE WILL PROTECT THEM. She does this for about two turns, sometimes three, rarely one. But eventually the enemy proximity is just about right, and one of the baby birds (probably the stupid ones that don't wear armor and use tiny little swords, and didn't even have a soul) has probably gotten eaten by a predator. This drives the other baby birds into a murderous frenzy and they depart the nest like a swarm of MAT 7 POW 12 weapon masters that will pillage the enemy outright. This is also called 'delivering the sentinels'. From their on they will wreak havoc on the enemy and either win the game on their own or pave a bloody road that Vyros and his battlegroup will stroll down on their way to the enemy caster's still beating heart.

TL;DR The brick holds till the sentinels can get a good charge, then it breaks up and they go to down on their own. Don't feel compelled to throw Discordia into the fray as well, but do so if it's a good idea. She just doesn't have to unless she has to, if you know what I mean.

And the bird analogy holds. Vyros likes birds.

[ucfan34]

Keep trying the stuff that you like...keep testing it to find out what you really think. And yeah, 17 24 is pretty rad.

Yeah, I like the model so much I initially just thew it in and figured I'd make it work. After actually using it a few times, I don't feel like it's been awesome, but I also don't feel it's been ineffective or a waste. Oh, and Kallas. I liked your use of trundle to describe him, very apt. I shall continue to describe him as trundling.

...The Discordia brick is pretty fast...

Imprinting then running Discordia should help me speed up considerably.

I think I do need to address when the brick breaks up. It will break up, and you'll probably be the one breaking it up, and if you do it properly enough you're probably doing well.

Okay, so maybe I'm not as bad off as I though. So far I have been the one to break up the brick, and it's been impactful every game so far. I kinda feel like I'm not getting as much out of it as I could though...probably just need pactice/time on the table.

Imagine Discordia a big beautiful mommy bird....one of the baby birds (probably the stupid ones that don't wear armor and use tiny little swords, and didn't even have a soul) has probably gotten eaten by a predator.

I haven't felt like I needed a souless for the unit thus far. Aside from it's other benefits are you running on (or) more just as a vengeance trigger?

And the bird analogy holds. Vyros likes birds.

I like this analogy.

[cryocube]

Imagine Discordia a big beautiful mommy bird. The sentinels are her precious little baby birds. Mommy bird loves her baby birds with all her heart, but like all moms, she knows she has to let them go and live and become daddy birds and mommy birds just like her. But till then SHE WILL PROTECT THEM. She does this for about two turns, sometimes three, rarely one. But eventually the enemy proximity is just about right, and one of the baby birds (probably the stupid ones that don't wear armor and use tiny little swords, and didn't even have a soul) has probably gotten eaten by a predator. This drives the other baby birds into a murderous frenzy and they depart the nest like a swarm of MAT 7 POW 12 weapon masters that will pillage the enemy outright. This is also called 'delivering the sentinels'. From their on they will wreak havoc on the enemy and either win the game on their own or pave a bloody road that Vyros and his battlegroup will stroll down on their way to the enemy caster's still beating heart.

Awesome analogy is awesome

[NEoJoe]

I haven't felt like I needed a souless for the unit thus far. Aside from it's other benefits are you running on (or) more just as a vengeance trigger?

Nah, you don't need the soulless, but you might be talking to the biggest user of them (I don't see many people talk about them much really, but could be wrong). I started off using them because they are good throwaways for the vengeance trigger (one point did sound a bit pricey though), extra sword arm, and spell interference sounded good. Over time and like sixty games I learned exactly what they are:

90% of the time, their spell interference is just straight up spell immunity. I can type a gigantic list of spells that just don't hit your dawnguard/whatever just because these guys are there. And in terms of a dawnguard brick, the more immunity the better, as you are playing a brick. A brick's m.o. is to survive. 5% of the time it's stiff spell resistance. Finally though, sometimes you can't help getting hit by something. Hopefully Disbinding will help there, but I've never used Disbinding honestly.

One point is not too much for me. In some games, for the one point I spend on this guy, I will simply win because I spent the point on this guy. Their increased speed allows them to peel ahead and block lanes a bit, a classic strategy. They don't have reach, so you'll need to recognize the times it's better to use a regular sentinel or two. If they don't die, they're MAT 8 POW 10 WM and I never regret it. (Also if the opponent does have a spell you really don't want to get hit by, running soulless up the board is going to negate mage static as they'll have a guy 5" closer to target, so watch out for instances like that and be careful)

I usually field them in pairs. If the opponent has no spell I fear I will generally run them up the farthest and if they live they charge and flank with each other while my Sentinels still just kinda hang back (probably moving the rest of the Sents up enough to put the Soulless in command range and promoting two Sentinels to where the soulless roughly used to be). If there is such a spell, I play accordingly.

That's pretty much it unless I forgot something. I find two points for all that stuff is a steal. I love our universal weapon attachment.

[hylianhunter]

Nice to see this discussion. Vyros was also my first Retribution caster and still is my favourite (though Rahn is getting close). His tricksyness with movement and LOS is amazing and can often catch people off guard.

I run him quite a lot, though my approach focuses less on delivering Vyros to the enemy caster and more on letting the army finish the job. A Phoenix and a Hydra are pretty much auto-includes for me in those lists. Generally, the Sentinels form the front line with the jacks hanging a little behind, with the Phoenix potentially getting Hallowed Avenger on turn 2 or 3 if it looks like there might be interesting targets to charge laterally (so the Phoenix is among the Sentinels, not in front of them). Stormfall Archers generally add flexible fire support to those lists.

[Watchtower]

More and more I find taking Discordia with Vy a mistake. It locks me into a brick style and has skornegy with Birdseyes.

Until the Banshee and Aspis is released I think I will take Phoenix and Griffons exclusively.

[frozenwastes]

I think taking the reach jacks with Vyros is probably a pretty solid way to go.

[Kallas]

More and more I find taking Discordia with Vy a mistake. It locks me into a brick style and has skornegy with Birdseyes.

Until the Banshee and Aspis is released I think I will take Phoenix and Griffons exclusively.

I don't want to say it but, you're doing it wrong. Discordia offers the brick, it's your call as to whether you use it. If the enemy has little/no shooting and you're bricking? That's not her fault.

As far as only Phoenix/Griffons, I think you're really hamstringing yourself with overly restrictive selection. If you honestly don't want anything else, fair enough, but Manticores work great with him, and Hydra's ignoring most of LOS are great (though I personally dislike Hydra's for other reasons.) The lights are generally just flat out overshadowed by the heavies, but a pathfinder Chimera running into position and getting safe beyond a forest can put some hefty pressure on the enemy.

[NEoJoe]

More and more I find taking Discordia with Vy a mistake. It locks me into a brick style and has skornegy with Birdseyes.

Until the Banshee and Aspis is released I think I will take Phoenix and Griffons exclusively.

I can see that. I understand that if you have brick elements and you don't run a brick, you probably don't feel so hot about the list. And it sounds like you don't want to be playing the brick really. So yeah, sounds like you've got the right idea and are looking for another way to play him.

(For the record though, Birds Eye isn't more Skornergy with Disco than it is for Griffon, as the latter can swing through guys a la Tall in the Saddle and Discordia can now choose targets through a forest/cloud. Both of them can charge through forests and clouds)

Anyhow, it seems you're more inclined to do a fast flanking type game with Vyros? I would like to hear your thoughts if you don't mind

[ucfan34]

Hey NEoJoe, Might you potentially be looking for someone's thoughs? Possibly considering updating this tactica? Figured I'd throw this out there (since your PM box is full) :P

As far as your tactica goes, if your playstyle has changed enough that you've now got new core peices / combos / strategies I think it might be worth an update. I'd like to see a part2 so to speak. Not necessarily editing this older one, but continuing where you've left off. There's a lot of good stuff here whether you're playstyle has changed or not.

Even if you don't do an update or 2nd part I'd be interested in knowing how you're getting on now.
As far as my updated experiences with him goes...
+The one big thing I'll mention is that my best games with him have come from 1 of 3 things.
1.) Opponents who forgot about Bird's Eye
2.) Opponents who didn't take the time to figure up my Jack's threat range with Mobility (and whatever else may be on the table).
3.) Successful use of Stranglehold. Which essentially equates to a high risk / high reward situation. It works and I'm almost always taking the advantage. It doesn't and I generally die next turn.
This is what really left me disappointed after a while. When I was coming up with a solid win it was more a mistake on my opponent's part than strong play on mine. It is part of the game though I suppose.

+Taking Sylys allows Vyros to best take advantage of Stranglehold which is integral. I think Sylys is manditory for Vyros (at least for my playstyle), which hurts because he's manditory with Kaelyssa also. Kaelyssa's going to cover more bad matchups and provide a better balanced list, so she wins, unless I'm just going go with Vyros no matter what.
+The Mobility+Lanyssa combo is pretty strong with reach jacks. I'm pretty much always taking a Banshee & Phoenix. It's also really easy to hang your jacks out to dry.
+ With the right models he's nigh impossible to assassinate at range. With an Aspis & Artificer following him around, camping focus, IR, on a hill or behind cover, with Artificer bubble, and range attacks are mostly laughable. One of the best combos Ret can put out in terms of making your opponent give you a O_o face with a "*** Bro! That's gross." Menoth's fire can still eat his face.
+Vyros is weakest at 35pts IMHO. At 35pts it allows your opponent to really start bringing nasty combos, while you just can't cover things. This is true with 35pts in general, but I've found the most unbalanced matchups at this point level.
+At this point in time I wouldn't say Vyros is unplayable or even all that that weak really. Most games are good to a point, and then bam! it goes south, usually on a pretty key dice roll (Strangle hold), he's just waiting to fail.

My most successful 35pt list has been...
Vyros +6
Banshee -10
Phoenix -10
Sylys -2
Arcanist -1
Arcanist -1
Full Sentinels+UA -11
Griffin -4
Lanyssa Ryssyl -2
35pts

At 50 add...
Sphinx -7
Battle Mages -5
Magister -2
Soulless -1

I've got 3 primary functions I'm trying to accomplish with this list (Not that these are revolutionary):
1.) Alpha Strike a key jack/warbeast
2.) Stranglehold another jack/beast (Or warcaster if you can get them)
3.) Keep Sentinels alive and deliver Sentinels

A few other notes on the list:
+This style basically becomes a poor man's Ossyan with regards to board control (although it's much more melee oriented, obviously).
+flanking solos / units ruin lives. They're the one big thing that I've really struggeled to consistantly deal with in most of my Vyros lists. If I put something in to deal with it, the rest of the list suffers. The Pronto Griffin has been the best balance I've found.
+The Griffon has an obscene threat range with this list. 6+6+3+2+2+2+3=24" or Speed6 + Pronto + Charge + Fleet + Reach + Lanyssa + Magister=24". This doesn't take into account Battle Mages either. Not that this full combo would ever happen, but it does illustrate how far that Griffon can potentiall get to hose up plans. Most of the math can be applied to any jack really.
+I'd rather take Halberdiers over Sentinels, and use the points elsewhere, but that Pronto is really key.
+Also key is the Sphinx's gun helping Vyros & Lanyssa make sure they're successful, while being a decent backup heavy.

That's all I've got for now. Let me know if anything stands out be it good or bad.

[shady]

I am a menoth player at heart however im just starting ROS, i find Vyros is my caster of choice. I finding Vyors is likeing 2 hydras double trouble with range 12+ ish i find casters who dont know Vyros is in a big surprise haha when i can target his or her caster.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So Wrath is out, as are the Vyre Myrmidons ^^,

Has anyone been using them with the Dawnlord?

Does the Sphinx allow Battle Mages to be brought in?

Aspis + Feat has already been discussed

Is that Sentinel marshall'd Daemon doing anything special for Vyros?

Is the Banshee proving an equal, or greater, swap into the Dawnlord's army for the Phoenix - given that Vyros doesn't have too much in the way of spells to arcnode and gaining knockdown could be handy?

[joelker41]

So Wrath is out, as are the Vyre Myrmidons ^^,

Has anyone been using them with the Dawnlord?

Does the Sphinx allow Battle Mages to be brought in?

Aspis + Feat has already been discussed

Is that Sentinel marshall'd Daemon doing anything special for Vyros?

Is the Banshee proving an equal, or greater, swap into the Dawnlord's army for the Phoenix - given that Vyros doesn't have too much in the way of spells to arcnode and gaining knockdown could be handy?

Ignoring LOS slams/knockdowns is nothing short of fantastic. As is having a base POW 17 reach 360 vision heavy void blade. Also add a little more of a traditional 'bricking' Jack combination. A Banshee with Involiable Resolve is one tough nut to crack, any damage roll needs to hit the 1 column really badly or you just won't chunk enough damage off. Wailing and the shoulder gun not being tied to a system is absolutely hilarious. I had a game just the other day where the thing had one box left and was preventing orders to the unit that was around it and if they walked away would have had a sweet slam on the caster. Not only is it great while fully operation, it still forces your opponent to kill it. The same can be said for the Phoenix, who can still Combust with any box(es) left.

Adding Denial in the form of Wailing without Vyros having to cast Stranglehold is just awesome. Instead of going all Khador on it and insisting that beating face and Vyros just bricking is the answer, we now have an ARM 21 Myrmidon (that for me anyway) can walk straight into a unit of Kayazy on one side and a unit of Winterguard on the other and completely shut them down for multiple turns.

I admit I haven't tried the Daemon/Sentinels marshalling combo. I am intrigued, but at the same time having a 9 point Jack marshalled is always scary to me. Of course I was used to running Mules with my ARGM in Mercs...so I guess there is a similarity. I just generally find whenever I do try marshalling with a melee unit it can kind of gum up the works a tad.

[absent]

Vyre Jacks are amazing, more at 11.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Vyre Jacks are amazing, more at 11.

*watches clock*

:P

I am asking for dudes use of them, which can flesh out theorymachine and deal with or expose any kinks and flaws along the way.

*gets back to watching clock*

[absent]

This weekend on the sunday tournament i took a sphinx! with vyros and IR'ed it, smashed it into a scythean, killing it. It was the biggest threat to vyros, then he took his turn and smashed on the sphinx with a big piece of his remaining army, feated with saeryn so i couldn't counter, but left the sphinx alive (at 4) in a pretty awkward spot for him. Next turn i moved IR over to vyros and parked him right in front of the army, a couple failed tries to kill him and i cut saeryns head of with the sphinx flanking. If it had been a shael jack i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been alive, and more expensive. Seems like a deal to me. Banshee would have been even nastier to leave alive near the caster, but he's a little pricey and it was 35 pts.As this is vyros tactica i haven't tried the other two with him.

[PG_relasine]

This weekend on the sunday tournament i took a sphinx! with vyros and IR'ed it, smashed it into a scythean, killing it. It was the biggest threat to vyros, then he took his turn and smashed on the sphinx with a big piece of his remaining army, feated with saeryn so i couldn't counter, but left the sphinx alive (at 4) in a pretty awkward spot for him. Next turn i moved IR over to vyros and parked him right in front of the army, a couple failed tries to kill him and i cut saeryns head of with the sphinx flanking. If it had been a shael jack i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been alive, and more expensive. Seems like a deal to me. Banshee would have been even nastier to leave alive near the caster, but he's a little pricey and it was 35 pts.As this is vyros tactica i haven't tried the other two with him.

To me, the Sphinx just seems like a solid trade piece. It's cheap, with Concentrated Power can hit hard enough to make someone think twice before ignoring it, has decent threat with SPD 5 and Reach, and even has a nice, little gun. If you can get someone to commit their expensive Bronzeback, Beast 09, Earthborn, etc. to kill it, you're coming out ahead.

[Mavwick]

As an old Vyros salt, you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle if you are ignoring Hallowed Avenger.
Always take two Lights with Vyros. One is a Griffon to sacrifice with Hallowed Avenger. The other is his late-game flank buddy which shifts between Griffons and Aspis, now. Vyros is a Warcaster who knows how to take control. ARM buffs infantry or a 'jack to a level that's hard to deal with normally. SPD5-6 'jacks with Reach have incredible threat range with Mobility. Hallowed Avenger keeps your enemy pinned down as the rest of the army approaches. It's easy to sacrifice the 4-point Griffon to tie up some guns, lock down heavier targets or kill solos that will harm your game plan. The Griffon gets +2 to charge attacks and ignores rough terrain. It also has a 360 front arc with Vyros to take his charge in any direction. Well-placed Hallowed Avenger strikes have probably won me as many games as Vyros' Flank, as it throws a serious wrench into the plans of the enemy when something goes up the board and ties down a chunk of the opposing army.
It's probably already mentioned, but never forget Flank and Vyros' stat line. ARM17 base means he can camp a few FOC and walk into Checkmate positions even when battles go bad. That's what the second Light is there for, and Aspis makes a better candidate with Shield Guard. Aspis is also nice to have mid-line on the feat turn and punch away on enemy infantry.

My problem with running more than two Retribution Heavies is that we can't take more than two Arcanists. It doesn't work when you need all three to push and their impact starts looking exponentially worse when you lose one Arcanist to an early kill.

I've got to do a lot more experimenting with Vyre 'jacks, but both the Banshee and Sphinx offer some new tricks in his game. The Sphinx is just cheap and effective and the Banshee's lauded enough on these forums. I have a hard time giving up the Phoenix's SPD advantage as well as the power of combustion when you're bogged down with infantry; especially pieces that give us a hard time like Kayazy. To answer a couple above questions :
-NEVER marshal with Vyros. All of his synergy is in the battlegroup. Daemon doesn't add much to his game. Or anyone's, really.
-Sphinxes do not facilitate Battle Mages as much as Warcasters. If the Battle Mages struggle to hit a target, it probably has higher ARM or it's infantry where the Sphinx cannot help them.

[BrotherOracle]

I played a Deamon in one game, was pretty effective. mowed down winter gaurd left and right. Not that mowing down WG is hard but I feel that pow 12 aoe but not a true blast is pretty powerful. But its competition is so good its hard to justify when the banshee is so useful and the Phoenix and Manticore are so good. Manticores are so good for 8 points.

[absent]

I'm not sure the demon is great with vyros, though seeing through things to hit the best hellmouth is pretty nice i want reach for flank and usually more melee focus, with certain other casters i think the demon a fine investment depending on what you need.

[Cyryst]

I too will sing the praise of the Daemon, having it pull in unsuspecting casters b2b with their jacks and then getting their jack slammed over themselves has won me a few games now. Doesn't need t be Vyros to pull that of in particular however.

[NEoJoe]

Lots of good stuff

Will do, but another time. Thanks, btw.

As an old Vyros salt, you're missing a huge piece of the puzzle if you are ignoring Hallowed Avenger.
Always take two Lights with Vyros. One is a Griffon to sacrifice with Hallowed Avenger. The other is his late-game flank buddy which shifts between Griffons and Aspis, now. Vyros is a Warcaster who knows how to take control. ARM buffs infantry or a 'jack to a level that's hard to deal with normally. SPD5-6 'jacks with Reach have incredible threat range with Mobility. Hallowed Avenger keeps your enemy pinned down as the rest of the army approaches. It's easy to sacrifice the 4-point Griffon to tie up some guns, lock down heavier targets or kill solos that will harm your game plan. The Griffon gets +2 to charge attacks and ignores rough terrain. It also has a 360 front arc with Vyros to take his charge in any direction. Well-placed Hallowed Avenger strikes have probably won me as many games as Vyros' Flank, as it throws a serious wrench into the plans of the enemy when something goes up the board and ties down a chunk of the opposing army.
It's probably already mentioned, but never forget Flank and Vyros' stat line. ARM17 base means he can camp a few FOC and walk into Checkmate positions even when battles go bad. That's what the second Light is there for, and Aspis makes a better candidate with Shield Guard. Aspis is also nice to have mid-line on the feat turn and punch away on enemy infantry.

My problem with running more than two Retribution Heavies is that we can't take more than two Arcanists. It doesn't work when you need all three to push and their impact starts looking exponentially worse when you lose one Arcanist to an early kill.

I've got to do a lot more experimenting with Vyre 'jacks, but both the Banshee and Sphinx offer some new tricks in his game. The Sphinx is just cheap and effective and the Banshee's lauded enough on these forums. I have a hard time giving up the Phoenix's SPD advantage as well as the power of combustion when you're bogged down with infantry; especially pieces that give us a hard time like Kayazy. To answer a couple above questions :
-NEVER marshal with Vyros. All of his synergy is in the battlegroup. Daemon doesn't add much to his game. Or anyone's, really.
-Sphinxes do not facilitate Battle Mages as much as Warcasters. If the Battle Mages struggle to hit a target, it probably has higher ARM or it's infantry where the Sphinx cannot help them.

This, a million times. One of the biggest changes to how I play Vyros in the past long time is more attention to Hallowed Avenger. Everything mentioned is true, and this spell is fantastic. Never underestimate doing things out of activation, especially if it's a damn charge.

I will add to what you say though: HA allows some pKaya like shenanigans. If your opponent has a legal charge target on the flank, you can move your phoenix into a sacrificial spot in order to combustion or beat a heavy or whatever. Then, if you surround your phoenix with guys before you end your turn, your opponent will have to clear your infantry out of the way, triggering HA and your phoenix (who ignored almost all LOS mods) can wind up 9" away from the enemy Mulg or whatever. TL;DR your 'jacks can charge away before getting smashed.

The spell just gives you the opportunity to outplay your opponent, and I love getting that ability.

And, while I don't think I sold it short, I love stranglehold so much it makes me sick. At my last tournament I held a Gladiator still while doing about ten damage to it with stranglehold over four turn. Sylys required though.

[Lord Sessadore]

Have to agree - any time a game goes past turn 2 or 3, Stranglehold can turn into solid gold. And Sylys makes it so much easier to pull off, too.
Edit: I think Stranglehold was responsible for what probably would've been my first credible win after the noobie learning curve, actually. Used it on Molik, who was really the only threat left on the board and wasn't in melee with anything - I figured this would keep me safe from him long enough to kill him then move on to Makeda, and I think it would have worked perfectly. Other player thought that sacrificing action just mean losing initials though, and was in a hurry to finish the game and ditch so didn't want to look it up, so he cleared a path and walked Molik up to Vyros and bought a couple attacks. I claim the moral victory.

Given both of the accolades for Hallowed Avenger here, I think I need to try to use this more. I've ignored it for the longest time because I thought it was difficult to use and/or poor ROI. I think the reason for that was my experiences when I was learning the game - I usually put HA on my Phoenix, then tried to charge a heavy or something with it. This usually resulted in a dead Phoenix that only got to make one attack that game, so I shelved the spell. Using it to have a Griffon jam something, or to let a Phoenix retreat (360 front arc shenanigans, yeah!) are some really good ideas that I now want to try.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Given both of the accolades for Hallowed Avenger here, I think I need to try to use this more. I've ignored it for the longest time because I thought it was difficult to use and/or poor ROI. I think the reason for that was my experiences when I was learning the game - I usually put HA on my Phoenix, then tried to charge a heavy or something with it. This usually resulted in a dead Phoenix that only got to make one attack that game, so I shelved the spell. Using it to have a Griffon jam something, or to let a Phoenix retreat (360 front arc shenanigans, yeah!) are some really good ideas that I now want to try.

What would you be charging with the Phoenix to enable it to retreat?

Also, can someone explain what the 360º front means?
Does that mean no back-strike bonuses for opponents?
And unfortunately allows the opponent to roll around Vyros' Myrmidons and not necessarily getting hit with a free strike?
What are the benefits of the 360º frontage?

I assume the LOS help means any of Vyros' Myrmidons can shoot whatever they want, within range of course, with no penalties?

[absent]

Birds eye allows you to fire at anything you want, but all the penalties for cover/concealment still apply.

360 LOS does indeed negate backstrikes, allow your opponents to move a bit more freely, but it also lets you attack more models potentially, and charge models that other things could not charge, stuff that ran to flank for example. It's a positive and negative, it mostly is irrelevant though.

On Hollowed avenger, i think what he is saying is charge the phoenix in, kill something dead, now when they kill a trooper to clear a charge lane to your phoenix, trigger HA and charge backwards at one of your own dummys, thus getting out of threat range, a benefit to 360 los there.