Dealing with high def armies

[muffinman331]

I am not a real experienced Skorne player yet (I've played about 20-30 games so far), but so far the thing I've had the most trouble with is high Def infantry lists. Well, that and Cryx in general, but that's a different topic for another day. put Skorne in front of a 'jack-heavy list or something that relies on a ton of high armor infantry (like steelheads or stormblades with arcane shield) and Skorne has a field day. But throw skorne up against stupid-high defense stuff like kayazy or WGI deathstars, and it's a totally different story.

This probably doesn't just apply to Khador stuff, but they are the specific example that I ran into that gave me trouble. Iron Flesh on Kayazy assassins seems quite out of reach for most of our stuff. with only a few models hitting Mat 7 there's not much chance of using our normal infantry killers (swordsmen in most of my current builds) to take down these high-def targets. Generally the only things that are able to hit WGI or assassins are beasts, but then you're killing two or three a turn and not using your beasts to kill important stuff like 'jacks or great bears or whatever.

Being new, I am hoping for some advice on what models in our toolbox can be used to deal with a threat like this. I look at my normal opponents (other than Khador I face a lot of crxy cygnar and legion) and see all sorts of useful abilities that can take out a bunch of high-def low-arm units. remains-in-play clouds that do auto-hits, electroleaps, tons of CRAs, purging bile thralls, blight field, etc etc. then I look at our stuff and don't see many options.

so how do all you more experienced players take out high def armies? for example, this list that a guy from our group has been (half)jokingly posting on our forums:

Epic Irusk
Behemoth
10 Kayazy Assassins
10 Kayazy Assassins
10 Kayazy Assassins
10 Kayazy Assassins
10 Kayazy Assassins
Kayazy Assassin Underboss

[Rynth]

Sadly, high DEF is a bit of a weakness for us; fortunately, we do have some tools.

We've got AOEs from Hexeris, Mordikaar, Zaal, Rasheth, Cannoneers and the Catapult; even when the miss they could end up hitting.
We've got sprays from Mordikaar and Drakes and thresher from Rhinodons, Kovaases(Kovaaii?) and Blood Runner Master Tormentors; if hitting one is difficult improve your odds by making a lot of attacks.
We've got some less conventional ways as well; such as slamming your own models through them, and using your own guys to make Eruption of Ash clouds to deliver lingering AOEs of POW 12 damage rolls.

As to that list I'd probably look to a Rasheth list along these lines:
Rasheth
Cannoneer
Cannoneer
Cannoneer
Bronzeback
Drake

Agonizer
Nihilators (Max)
Beast Handlers (Min)
Catapult
Catapult

It is a tier 1 list so the titans cost less.
Every turn I'd be dropping 3 POW 8 AOE 3s, a pair of POW 8 AOE 4s and a pair of POW 12 AOE 3s that block LOS and cause damage to models entering or ending inside of them. With 51 models on the table most of the drifts will be good drifts.
Breath of Corruption can also be used defensively. Cast it on one of your models and they become immune to Kayazy's
Stacking the Cannoneer's animus and Rasheth's feat drops Kayazy's P+S by 4 which makes them significantly less threatening.

Probably not a great all comers list, but I think it would do fairly well against the proposed Kayazy spam.

[PG_Blitzer]

Slam or throw things into their units. During a tournament an opponent of mine was surprised when I had my BB throw the objective marker into the kayazy and onto the underboss. I then used a Gladiator to slam one of my own models through more of his unit. The Kayazy were no longer a threat after that.
Some of our casters are able to get rid of annoying upkeeps like iron flesh.
Charging Ferox are mat 10 when they can see Rhadiem.

[Unseen]

Some of our casters are able to get rid of annoying upkeeps like iron flesh.

"Some of our casters?" Try just Zaal via Hex Blast(unless you were just future proofing for something us non-PGers don't know about yet). Keep in mind Hex Blast only strips upkeeps on a direct hit which can be difficult against a high defense target even before conditional defenses like Stealth, Concealment, Cover and Camouflage get taken into account. IIRC, Zaal ignores none of those with his spells.

Charging Ferox are mat 10 when they can see Rhadiem.

True enugh, but what a waste. 12-16 points to have 6 bad(MAT 10 vs DEF 19 in theworst sace scenario I can thnk of) shot at one of your expensive cavalry models killing a cheap Kayazy assassin.

[Hasten]

We also have access to Orin Midwinter for some bounced lightning. Regarding those Ferox, they're large bases so you can potentially charge with one or two and then subsequently slam them through a crowd of high-def models.

Generally speaking though it's unreasonable to expect an all-comers list to deal with a list like that Kayazy spam. It's worth noting though that only one unit would be at absurd levels of DEF at a time, so your best bet would likely be to engage the others with the rest of your models.

-H

[dboeren]

Ask a silly question, get silly answers. Until your buddy actually shows up with 50 Kayazy it's a moot point. If that ever happens, borrow Feora and a unit of deliverers off someone and then you can both go back to playing normal games.

[doom_reaver]

simples just follow the patented 5 steps to victory programme (patent pending)
1 model required, Bronzeback titan. accessories- tube sock, a ruthless and somewhat blood thirsty friend.

strategy:
1 either lose the dice roll or win it and elect to allow the opponent to set up first.
2 Declare that all your models will be ambushing and yell NOW!!!!
3 your fried who has been waiting non-chalantly in the background leaps forth swinging the socked bronze back in a thresher like arc of destruction reducing your opponent to a spasming mess on the floor.*
4 due to the fact that the war-caster on the table is representative of your real life opponent the fact that your opponent has in real life lost all his health boxes counts as a win by assassination.
5 If questioned by local authorities outline the win conditions to the officers present and then re-iterate step 4 of this process.

*disclaimer- this sure fire method of victory is for entertainment purposes only and should be carried out under the supervision of both great grand parents. Doom_Reaver industries accepts no liabilitity for deleterious effects to your liberty or criminal record resulting from the implementation of the 5 point plan.

[Blugger]

50 kayazy isn't even that great, they're DEF 14 base and eIrusk has no way of raising that score. Only the unit with the FA: 1 underboss will get up to 16 in melee and, since all assassins are stealthed, eIrusk won't have much to hide behind.

Be more worried about pIrusk IF with a full unit of kayazies plus UA

Carnage, Carnivore, Death March help hit higher defenses, though kayazies won't really care sitting at def 19 in melee

Zaal will laugh at them, though

Void spirits with Mordikaar just barely misses them on average, and khador detests incorpreal models

Naar has access to iron flesh and makes upkeeping spells difficult for the enemy

Lastly, you can also choose to ignore them by trampling through the bastards and hitting something important on the other side.

[PG_apollosun]

Slamming your own models through high def ones is incredibly effective. Allows you to position the model-to-slam for optimal kills in your turn. You're tagging your own model in the back arc so it should be quite easy to hit. Outside of tough models, this is usually auto-kill for those hit. And our heavies barely get scratched from non-boosted slam dmg. And opponents rarely see this coming.

[Skorznex]

Ask a silly question, get silly answers. Until your buddy actually shows up with 50 Kayazy it's a moot point. If that ever happens, borrow Feora and a unit of deliverers off someone and then you can both go back to playing normal games.

I lol I was gonna say ... Castigators anyone??

[Vombaticus]

Well i first would like to point out, that Kayazy are FA:2 so the Kayazy spam list would be illegal.
Against high def infantry my cannoneer became my go to beast. Use it with a caster that can arc an aoe ( Hexeris/ Rasheth) and the high def guys will be a lot easier to handle. On top of that you could use Gatorman, they are MAT 9 with death march/ carnivore and are able to reroll misses against living models. ( They will still have a hard time hitting DEF 19, but its your best shot)
Other than that its the good old " slam/ throw stuff trough them".

[Rynth]

Zaal will laugh at them, though

Could you explain this?
Let's assume Iron Fleshed Kayazy so we're at least starting on the same page. DEF 19 against melee, DEF 17 against ranged before concealment, cover and stealth get added into the mix. Zaal can drop Iron Flesh by directly hitting with Hex Blast, but since he doesn't ignore spells he has to be within 5" to do so. His eye laser will ignore the concealment and cover, but still will not ignore the stealth. Nihilators + Last Stand + Feat can combine to reliably hit them if they are close enough to berserk into several and you have enough feat tokens to hit them.
Zaal either ends up dangerously close to your enemy, or it costs you your feat and a portion of a unit. Neither looks too much like "laughing at," IMO.

[rocksalt]

Facing off against infantry spam of any type is our faction's glaring weakness. A weakness that I hope will be fixed in Domination.

So hoping that our dino BE can lay down some supression fire/AOE type thing.

[Blugger]

Could you explain this?
Let's assume Iron Fleshed Kayazy so we're at least starting on the same page. DEF 19 against melee, DEF 17 against ranged before concealment, cover and stealth get added into the mix. Zaal can drop Iron Flesh by directly hitting with Hex Blast, but since he doesn't ignore spells he has to be within 5" to do so. His eye laser will ignore the concealment and cover, but still will not ignore the stealth. Nihilators + Last Stand + Feat can combine to reliably hit them if they are close enough to berserk into several and you have enough feat tokens to hit them.
Zaal either ends up dangerously close to your enemy, or it costs you your feat and a portion of a unit. Neither looks too much like "laughing at," IMO.

He gets kovaases...kovaai?

Kayazy can ignore free strikes and, on one turn, intervening models, but not clouds and auto 1 damage

Plus there's last stand in a pinch. Swordsmen won't hit assassins on average, but they were graced with two attacks to try. Besides, this is Zaal. He wants his living units to die.

[Warden]

You could always take an Extoller with Zaal then he can laugh at whatever he wants...LOL

My current 50 point all comers list is not too worried about high def. More worried about heavy shooty armies.
It looks like this:
Hexeris
max swordsman + UA
min PGBH
Agonizer
Apitimus Marketh
Extoller
Ancestral guardian x 2
Void Spirit
Razor Worm
Cyclops Savage
Basilisk Drake
Titan Gladiator
Bronzback Titan

It has a lot of high MAT attacks and it's fun to throw around the guardians when they are full of souls. I have had some real fun beating down those assassins from a distance. When the underboss moves up just smack him out of the middle of his formation and they are not so bad to deal with.
I know this is only one army but we do have ways around any threat. Even the ones we have the hardest time with. This army is really fun against pretty much everything so far. Not perfect but fun.

[CrashProned]

Im a Khador player, and I want to put this out there: We will soon have Demolishers, which will provide Girded to things B2B with it like, oh I dunno...Kayazies? So the blast damage will soon be less of a threat to High Defense Khador stuff, So use things like pMoroul, the Bloodrunners are pretty good to. Oh and try to get people to use THEIR OWN attacks and hit THEIR OWN units. The other game I had pButcher, Spriggan, Wardog, and the Bears hiding behind the Kayazies as I advanced into melee, but I cast Obliteration and it backfired and cleared out 6 Kayazies and a lane straight to Butcher.

[PG_beatdown]

pButcher theme list with 7 units of doomreavers +ua
and a beserker for fun

its a tournament so we cant build a list just to beat it....what do you do

the kayazy are a very real threat too
you have to know what to do about them

[zee]

Slamming your own models through high DEF infantry, while reliable, is very costly in terms of giving momentum over to your opponent. You're offering a large based model to them on a silver platter. BUuuut... I never thought about slamming cav through! Still costly, but at least it's not an entire heavy beast. Plus, we have cav that can really position themselves well. I'll have to test out a cav anti-Khador list soon. I've been slamming Rhinodons through, because a Mat 5+2 boosted thresher is a good first try at taking some stuff out before you slam his fat tush through the enemy.

By the way, we can get MAT 10 on the charge or MAT 9 with a reroll infantry (slaughterhousers and Gatormen respectively with Hexeris, Rasheth or pMakeda), so you can get at least a puncher's chance against high def. It may not be great, but you're not totally helpless.

[Triumph Of Man]

Could you explain this?
Let's assume Iron Fleshed Kayazy so we're at least starting on the same page. DEF 19 against melee, DEF 17 against ranged before concealment, cover and stealth get added into the mix. Zaal can drop Iron Flesh by directly hitting with Hex Blast, but since he doesn't ignore spells he has to be within 5" to do so. His eye laser will ignore the concealment and cover, but still will not ignore the stealth. Nihilators + Last Stand + Feat can combine to reliably hit them if they are close enough to berserk into several and you have enough feat tokens to hit them.
Zaal either ends up dangerously close to your enemy, or it costs you your feat and a portion of a unit. Neither looks too much like "laughing at," IMO.

eIrusk doesn't have iron flesh. If it's not eIrusk the dude can't have 50 Kayazy.

[Rynth]

eIrusk doesn't have iron flesh. If it's not eIrusk the dude can't have 50 Kayazy.

Go read Blugger's comment again. He was talking about the ease in which Zaal could deal with Iron Fleshed Kayazy, I asked for clarification on that topic because "laughs at" seemed stronger than.

He gets kovaases...kovaai?
Kayazy can ignore free strikes and, on one turn, intervening models, but not clouds and auto 1 damage

Don't forget that the Kovaas is an abomination, so there is the slight chance getting too close will scare them.
He may get multiple in a game, but only ever 1 at a time. A single cloud is difficult to hide everything behind; I've never managed the feat even with the Goibber's larger single cloud or Rasheth's multiple smaller clouds. Might be a meta/terrain dependent thing though.

Plus there's last stand in a pinch. Swordsmen won't hit assassins on average, but they were graced with two attacks to try. Besides, this is Zaal. He wants his living units to die.

Ugh. There is about a 25% chance that you'll roll a 13+ on 3d6. If all positionings are perfect so that a swordsman that hits will have the ability to Side Step into a new Kayazy of the same unit then a full unit of 11 attack capable swordsmen will kill about 3 Kayazy and all 11 will die and clear the field for the rest of your opponent's army. Zaal does want his warriors dying, but you never want your guys to die wastefully, and chasing a 25% kill rate seems a bit of a waster to me.

When I think laughingly good I think of Hexeris vs Venethrax's or eAsphyxious' feats or pMorghoul vs single wound Shield Wall units; disgustingly one sided contests. Zaal is probably on of our better options for dealing with high DEF, but even his answers aren't great.

[Ramrod]

How does eMakeda fare on feat turn with swordsmen and nihilators?

[Rynth]

How does eMakeda fare on feat turn with swordsmen and nihilators?

Swordsmen do slightly worse under her feat than Last Stand.
Swordsmen need a 13+ to hit. That happens 25.9% of the time, so roughly a quarter of their attacks will hit. So 11 feated Swordsmen will kill about 3 Iron Fleshed Kayazy.

NOTE: Swordsmen need anything but snake-eyes on damage to kill the Kayazy. Its a low enough chance that I've ignored it for their kill total, but it is possible.

Nihilators need a 12+ to hit. That happens 37.5% of the time, so about 4 out of their 10 attacks will hit. At P+S 12 any hit is a kill and allows for an additional attack. The additional attacks "should" generate one more kill so 10 feated Nihilators will will about 5 Iron Fleshed Kayazy.

Keep in mind I'm an Art School graduate so my math is grossly oversimplified, rounded and, quite possibly, wrong.

[Indragnir]

Rynth, eMakeda's feat grants boosted attack rolls, so it's 13+ on 3d6, that's 37,5% (per attack), Nihilators 43,75%.

In my experience : my best answer are the beasts... however it's hard to devote them killing high defense infantry, and lot of times I cannot afford them being employed that way.
I tried everything, to me beasts, and void spirits charging my own models for some mean cloud are my best answers. Moderate success was obtained with cannoner, catapult and drake.
I'm leaving out warlocks because there're 9 locks out there and not every game will you play the right lock.

[Rynth]

Rynth, eMakeda's feat grants boosted attack rolls, so it's 13+ on 3d6, that's 37,5% (per attack), Nihilators 43,75%.

I'm aware of the boost. However, it seems I did forget the second attack this morning which does improve the praetorians kill numbers..

Your numbers seem a bit high(though could just be my own ignorance and internet table trust issues), is there more to them that just to hit? I've looked at several odds tables and they all put getting a 13+ on three dice at about 25% and 12+ at about 37%. One or two points I'd take to be a rounding issue, 5-12 means I'm probably doing something wrong.

[Indragnir]

I'm aware of the boost. However, it seems I did forget the second attack this morning which does improve the praetorians kill numbers..

Your numbers seem a bit high(though could just be my own ignorance and internet table trust issues), is there more to them that just to hit? I've looked at several odds tables and they all put getting a 13+ on three dice at about 25% and 12+ at about 37%. One or two points I'd take to be a rounding issue, 5-12 means I'm probably doing something wrong.

You hit on a 13-14-15-16-17-18, that's 6/16, since you cannot roll a total of 1 or 2 with 3 die.

[PG_Deathraven]

The good folk over at Trollblood Scrum already did the math for you, 13+ on 3d6 is 25.9%. http://www.trollbloodscrum.com/search/label/Dice

[Indragnir]

The good folk over at Trollblood Scrum already did the math for you, 13+ on 3d6 is 25.9%. http://www.trollbloodscrum.com/search/label/Dice

I'm not math oriented guy, I simply notice 3d6 can produce 16 different results and 6 results from 16 possible results will hit, so to me 6 chances from 16 that's my number.
Maybe I'm ignoring some basic statistical rule in my logic. I don't know.

[PG_Deathraven]

There are diffent odds of rolling each number. For example you can only roll an 18 by getting 3 sixes, but you can roll a 10 with many different combinations of the 3 dice. Probability is a deceptive area of maths, so I like to look these things up and make sure cause I'm no math genius either.

[Indragnir]

Ah, so it's even worse. Less % of hitting.

Now I feel a bit more unsecure about high defense infantry. Lol. Just kidding.

Thank you DR.

Edit: could you tell we the % with two attacks?

[PG_Deathraven]

The chance of getting at least one hit with each swordsman is the same chance as listed in the column for Doomshapers fortune. Basically if you get 3 dice swordsmen/Ferox are man for man a better bet than Nihilators/Bloodrunners, as the second attack is more use in this situation than an extra mat.

[Centa]

Ah, so it's even worse. Less % of hitting.

Now I feel a bit more unsecure about high defense infantry. Lol. Just kidding.

Thank you DR.

Edit: could you tell we the % with two attacks?

The chance to roll a 13 with one attack (3d6 to hit) is 25,93% and with two attacks your chance to hit is 45,14%.

[PG_Paingiver]

simples just follow the patented 5 steps to victory programme (patent pending)
1 model required, Bronzeback titan. accessories- tube sock, a ruthless and somewhat blood thirsty friend.

strategy:
1 either lose the dice roll or win it and elect to allow the opponent to set up first.
2 Declare that all your models will be ambushing and yell NOW!!!!
3 your fried who has been waiting non-chalantly in the background leaps forth swinging the socked bronze back in a thresher like arc of destruction reducing your opponent to a spasming mess on the floor.*
4 due to the fact that the war-caster on the table is representative of your real life opponent the fact that your opponent has in real life lost all his health boxes counts as a win by assassination.
5 If questioned by local authorities outline the win conditions to the officers present and then re-iterate step 4 of this process.

*disclaimer- this sure fire method of victory is for entertainment purposes only and should be carried out under the supervision of both great grand parents. Doom_Reaver industries accepts no liabilitity for deleterious effects to your liberty or criminal record resulting from the implementation of the 5 point plan.

nice one!!!

[Ramrod]

So fire a blast at the iron fleshed kayazy, pop feat, charge the swordsman into the half strength IF unit and the berzerkers into their second unbuffed unit?

[Mr.chair]

simples just follow the patented 5 steps to victory programme (patent pending)
1 model required, Bronzeback titan. accessories- tube sock, a ruthless and somewhat blood thirsty friend.

strategy:
1 either lose the dice roll or win it and elect to allow the opponent to set up first.
2 Declare that all your models will be ambushing and yell NOW!!!!
3 your fried who has been waiting non-chalantly in the background leaps forth swinging the socked bronze back in a thresher like arc of destruction reducing your opponent to a spasming mess on the floor.*
4 due to the fact that the war-caster on the table is representative of your real life opponent the fact that your opponent has in real life lost all his health boxes counts as a win by assassination.
5 If questioned by local authorities outline the win conditions to the officers present and then re-iterate step 4 of this process.

*disclaimer- this sure fire method of victory is for entertainment purposes only and should be carried out under the supervision of both great grand parents. Doom_Reaver industries accepts no liabilitity for deleterious effects to your liberty or criminal record resulting from the implementation of the 5 point plan.

It's a good plan, but I just don't feel comfortable assassinating without molik Karn. Would it still work if he was in the sock instead?

[Skid64]

There was a lot of discussion around swordsmen needing to hit on a 13+. That seems a bit of a long shot to me.

Someone early in thread breifly aluded to using Bloodrunners with a Master Tormentor but the idea was dropped. I am wondering why this would not be the preferred option. Bloods get +2 (Mat 7 +2)to attack as long as the Master T is in sight. If you go this route and assuming the worst case of Def 19 on the Kayazies, the bloods will hit on 10s. With the boost from eMakeda's feat or a charge, you will hit them 62% of the time. One hit and the Kayazies die with Atomical Precision. Given the odds and the lower point cost for Bloodrunners this would seem the better choice. What am I missing?

[Jaradakar]

There was a lot of discussion around swordsmen needing to hit on a 13+. That seems a bit of a long shot to me.

Someone early in thread breifly aluded to using Bloodrunners with a Master Tormentor but the idea was dropped. I am wondering why this would not be the preferred option. Bloods get +2 (Mat 7 +2)to attack as long as the Master T is in sight. If you go this route and assuming the worst case of Def 19 on the Kayazies, the bloods will hit on 10s. With the boost from eMakeda's feat or a charge, you will hit them 62% of the time. One hit and the Kayazies die with Atomical Precision. Given the odds and the lower point cost for Bloodrunners this would seem the better choice. What am I missing?

Charge adds dice to damage, but not to hit. Counting on eMakeda is not very realistic, as we have many Warlocks and being forced to play just that one, is not that great for our faction.

MT + Bloodrunners might be okay, but the MT needs to be out in front for it to work and can have LOS blocked from enemy infantry or your own Bloodrunners. Not to mention due to her thresher ability she'll most likely be a higher priority target so won't be around long. That puts the Bloodrunners back at 7, which ultimately still has issues hitting Krayazies.

My advice would be to just ignore them or try to tie them up/buy time, while focusing on the goal of scenario or caster kill because correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Krayazies present a huge threat to our beasts do they?

[PG_Deathraven]

Depends on the caster. With pButcher or Damiano they do.

[Blugger]

Plus either Irusk for the additional damage die, eVlad for feat + transference and eSorscha for feat

[Indragnir]

They're an incredible threat to our beasts (Irusk(s), eVlad, eSorscha, pButcher, Damiano...). I trample them a lot but then I struggle to destroy my heavy target(s) without initial attacks.