Potential issues of Tier Lists vs. Faction futures.

[Chad]

I was thinking about the tier lists this morning and I had a bit of a revelation, and following that a concern.

In terms of both the restrictions and benefits, the existence of the tiers may have a profound effect on future model development within a faction.

Now, it's also true that new models are profoundly affected by what already is available. This is to be expected with model synergies. But the tiers add a whole new layer. Most of the tier allowances are restricted by statuses like character (for warbeasts/warjacks), named types (like Legionnaire), or an ability (stealth, flight, incorporeal).

What that means is Privateer Press must balance vs. both open faction synergy (how everything works with everything else) AND potential tier based inclusion.

Let's take a few examples - Saeryn's tier 4. Because this tier exists we could never see a Heavy Nephilim with flight, as you could easily add 2 of these +1 light Nephalim and get the benefits of both tier 3 and tier 4 using the same models (thus reducing your investment needed to get the tier benefit). It might not be in their plans to ever do it, but it does create a design restriction that wouldn't exist without the tier benefit. Similarly, you'll likely never see a 7 point Nephilim or a 4 point Nephalim, since both of those would allow even more edging of points out of the tier system.

Or something like Thagrosh's Tier 3 benefit - Because this benefit exists, you'll probably not see a legionnaire UA that would grant AD. Again, not something they may plan on, but something they probably couldn't get away with due to the tier benefit.

Looking through the tiers, I could probably come up with a ton of examples of design restrictions that result from the tiers.

From the other direction - because the tiers exist now, many future models that don't already fit by one of the inclusions that exist in a tier have to be retro-fitted to be allowed into a tier, barring some kind of tier re-release. Also, because of the named/typed benefits and inclusions, every newly designed model must be considered and naming conventions avoided in order to prevent it or specifically to include it in a tier. Not a big deal, obviously since the naming conventions are purely at PP's discretion, it's just another factor.

Any thoughts?

[PG_Draxos]

I see what your saying but I doubt it will be a problem any time soon, if ever

[jandrese]

Or that Nephelim with flight will be a character. There's always that.

[PG_joedj]

The inclusion of Theme lists in No Quarter suggests the that Privateer Press is constantly re-evaluating/re-inventing them. Errata-ing a theme list and or their associated tiers to add/eliminate models would therefore not be a problem, especially if included in No Quarter and on their website.

Great access to errata, rulings, and specific or general info has been a particularly good aspect of playing Warmachine/Hordes for me.

[computertrucker]

I see no problem here.. Move along!

[MagnustheJust]

{parks butt next to the 'No Worries' campfire and starts roasting marshmallows}

[PG_Draxos]

{parks butt next to the 'No Worries' campfire and starts roasting marshmallows}

*starts stealing magnus' marshmellows so I can roast them*
You want some chocolate for your smores Magnus?

[Chad]

Perhaps instead of dismissing it out of hand, you could over some counter-points. Computertrucker and Magnus - do these posts mean that you disagree that it creates potential design restrictions or that you just don't think it matters to you that those might affect the future of model design?

The inclusion of Theme lists in No Quarter suggests the that Privateer Press is constantly re-evaluating/re-inventing them. Errata-ing a theme list and or their associated tiers to add/eliminate models would therefore not be a problem, especially if included in No Quarter and on their website.

Great access to errata, rulings, and specific or general info has been a particularly good aspect of playing Warmachine/Hordes for me.

I agree with this, but errata only addresses the minor concern of retroactive inclusion to tiers. It does little to address future design concerns, and the potential limitations that exist because the tiers exist.

It's possible that they errata whole tier lists to fix a model inclusion or benefit they hadn't considered when designing a model, but is that likely? I know they (and the playtesters) work hard to look for that balance beforehand, it's more likely that certain things will just not appear in the first place than they errata to fix it simply because they want to have a certain model with certain abilities designed then patched ex-post facto.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

I feel that these "restrictions" are on things that were not going to happen anyway. Privateer develops model concepts YEARS in advance so the Theme Forces are probably more or less future-proof (especially since there are rules like Special Issue) even if you weren't talking about things like giant flying Nephilim and a SECOND Legionnaire UA (since signs point to a Character UA for them in Domination).

[Halfhoot]

Well... they already errata'd the new merc caster tier so that it could not include Triumph. Though I guess technically it wasn't an errata. It was just a statement that said he didn't work for that even though his stats say he's a Defender warjack.

[Watchtower]

*starts stealing magnus' marshmellows so I can roast them*
You want some chocolate for your smores Magnus?

First you take the graham, you stick the chocolate on the graham. Then you roast the 'mallow. When the 'mallows flaming... you stick it on the chocolate. Then cover with the other end. Then you scarf. Kind of messy, but good! Try some!

[Raven28256]

I don't think it will be an issue.

First of all, it is quite obvious that PP plans their releases years in advance. I'm sure they probably have model releases planned out, or at least have a general idea of where they want to go, about two or three books into the future. Just look at Thyra's theme force. It references a new unit that didn't come out in Wrath, meaning that the theme force was planned at least one expansion ahead.

Secondly, and most importantly, the "design restrictions" you have listed as examples are ridiculously specific and were probably never intended anyway. What are the chances that the Legionnaires will get a UA that gives them AD anyway? It is possible, but not probable, I think. Heavy Nephilims? Aren't Nephilims all lights right now? Again, the possibility of a heavy Nephilim with flight is there, but it is pretty rare to see a specific type/species of light beast get a heavy version. In fact, the only example I can think of is the Cyclops, and their heavy is a character that is noted for being abnormally large and strong for the species, which is why he is a chieftain. It might be the same with Legion. Maybe they do create a heavy Nephilim, but it is a unique specimen represented as a character beast, which negates the previously mentioned design restriction anyway.

[tutenkharnage]

I was told that Commander Stryker doesn't appreciate the unauthorized use of his likeness. Especially from his school years.

[juckto]

Errata-ing a theme force and or their associated tiers to add/eliminate models would therefore not be a problem

Oh yeah that will go down fine. Player starts a new army, decides to do it as a theme force, on a bit of a budget so only buys the models required. 2 months later PP turns around and tells him he can't field that force.

[Sevwall]

I dont personally think much thought goes into the theme forces. Once they are released I'd be surprised if they ever give another thought about them. If one got too good in the future they moght errata it, but I doubt they change a model based on its theme force inplications.

[Trygle]

It would be easier to Errata a theme force rather than errata a whole model.

A tier only affects the small subsystem it creates within the game.
Conversely a model outside this subsystem generates an affect based on it's own abilities and it's impact in the game.

Changing the tier benefit would mainly affect the tier, not so much the individual model.. Mainly when the tier is the main issue.

[Wishing]

I dont personally think much thought goes into the theme forces. Once they are released I'd be surprised if they ever give another thought about them. If one got too good in the future they moght errata it, but I doubt they change a model based on its theme force inplications.

While I agree mostly, in that I don't think anyone actively would consider theme forces to be an important factor when new model ideas are developed, but I do think they have the potential to influence decisions, if nothing else then for the sake of consistency. The Thagrosh example above is probably the best one... if PP were going to make a Legionnaire UA that gave AD, it seems likely that someone would point out "doesn't that prett much invalidate one of Thagrosh's theme tiers?", and unless the AD was crucial for whatever reason, they would probably modify the rules to avoid the clunky rules design conflict. Just my reasoning...

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

While I agree mostly, in that I don't think anyone actively would consider theme forces to be an important factor when new model ideas are developed, but I do think they have the potential to influence decisions, if nothing else then for the sake of consistency. The Thagrosh example above is probably the best one... if PP were going to make a Legionnaire UA that gave AD, it seems likely that someone would point out "doesn't that prett much invalidate one of Thagrosh's theme tiers?", and unless the AD was crucial for whatever reason, they would probably modify the rules to avoid the clunky rules design conflict. Just my reasoning...

What about Epic Krueger and how he makes things fearless, when his theme force is full of stuff that's already fearless? Theme forces are (mostly) based on the fluff, not the rules, and I doubt PP worries too much about the kind of interaction you're describing.