Is 2 x Posse Inevitable?

[Sardonic Artery]

Hi, I'm a guy who's been playing Gators since near the start of their non-factiondom, yet only owns one unit of Gatormen Posse. I'm of the opinion that, as the game expands, you're not going to see the powerful choices of past releases (can anyone name me a character Wrath jack / Domination beast that can compete with Mulg and Deathjack?). With that in mind, is it time to concede that with the powerful Posse, there's not going to be a unit that can compete with them? (Bog Trogs play a different role and I suspect a mediocre ranged unit to be next.)

It's not that I don't like them; I'm just not a fan of multiple units of the same model.

[ozmo]

I think minions like mercs before them are going to suffer from limited choices. Combine this with the minions tax (slaughterhousers I'm looking at you), it will be hard to get very competative/efficient choices as other factions mat "break" them.
For example Gators under Rashath(sp) feat hit at an effective POW 17.
Gators are very very good troop choices, with all three locks making them even better. If you plan to play 50+ point games 2 units are going to be very useful. I think you can work around that but you will probably be hurting the competativeness of the list.

[Polar_Bear]

Well, I think it's a much different question if you ask, "Should I get a second GMP because we're never going to get anything that good again?" or if you ask, "Should I get a second GMP because we'll eventually get things that fill a role that the GMP don't fill?" You mentioned a ranged unit (though you say it'll be crappy. Why, I don't fully know, but I'm not a psychologist, but it seems a rather defeatist attitude).

So, because we don't share the same ideological stance with your question (while I admit everything isn't 100% perfect with Warmachine/Hordes, there are some things that do seem a bit of a better deal than others), I don't think I can answer that first question (and it seems to be the one you're more implying).

I would say that no, I don't think that PP is going to come out with anything /better/ than GMP, but that's because PP doesn't tend to come out with things that just make what's currently available obsolete. So no, we won't get a melee unit that's as durable as GMP (their major strong-suit, if you ask me). But we will probably eventually get a unit that is melee-based that maybe hits harder, or is faster, or whatever. So in one sense, you could say that 2x GMP is inevitable, because we won't get a unit that's "All the things GMP does, but better for cheaper."

But we will certainly get /other units/ eventually, and when that happens, then no, it may not be the most optimal (whatever that means to each individual player will vary) to run 2x GMP.

PB

[thag-rush]

Hell, I run two units of Posse in my pThagrosh list... they're too good to take just one unit.

[talquizar]

Like to see Mulg take on WE+SJ :P
I don't use 2 GMP but with the 5 man box coming out I will probably pick one up. I don't like owning 2 of anything in hordes. But my logic in getting the other unit is simple "An educated guess will say we are not getting another unit for quite some time. they are trying to make us the beast and solo faction with the GMP and Ambushers being our only units for quite some time." Don't get me wrong I am okay with this I like our beasts and what I have right now makes a really neat 50 point list.

[Sardonic Artery]

Yeah, it's just the multiples thing.

You mentioned a ranged unit (though you say it'll be crappy. Why, I don't fully know, but I'm not a psychologist, but it seems a rather defeatist attitude).

Not trying to be defeatist -- I just don't see Gators getting a great ranged unit. That seems like one of the limitations they should keep.

[PG_Duckboy]

I got over my fear of multiples once T4 Ebutcher tier force came out.

IMO, if you don't have 2 units of GMP, your hurting your effectiveness of your army at 50pts with some lock.

[Polar_Bear]

Well, not getting a ranged unit that has large numbers (think Stormfall Archers, but Bog Trogs or something), and getting a crappy ranged unit are two distinct things.

I mean, no, I don't see Blindwater getting equivalents of Long Gunners or Gun Mages, or even Bloodtrackers, but we'll get some sort of unit with a ranged capability (that's not a League unit) eventually. Obviously, since we didn't get one with this release, we won't be getting one for quite a bit. But I see it as almost a certainty in the eventuality of it.

PB

[dboeren]

I could easily see some kind of Bog Trog skirmisher ranged unit. Short ranged, Bushwhack, or something of that sort. Alternately, you might get something roughly like the Legion Warspears unit, range multi-wound Gatormen with spears.

It *IS* pretty inevitable that you'll get some kind of ranged troops eventually. Every other faction has them after all. That doesn't mean it will be anytime soon though, especially with the Minions release schedule.

Also, there's nothing wrong with non-fancy ranged units as long as their points match their capabilities. Look at the Skorne Slingers. They don't particularly stand out in any way, but they're CHEAP - 4/6 for a ranged unit is a deal any way you slice it so they're gonna see play even though they don't have CRA, or multiple shots, or 14" range, or a choice between three kinds of magical bullets. What's good or bad has to factor in the cost and not be taken as an absolute.

I think it's fair to say that Gators are mainly a melee faction and that ranged is not their specialty. In that light, they're unlikely to get a ranged unit that would be counted among the best in the game. Who cares? Not everybody gets those, it doesn't mean they're not useful. You seem to be walking a thin line between saying they won't (and shouldn't) get a "great" ranged unit versus they're going to get a "mediocre" ranged unit. That's actually not a line at all, that's a broad plain! Isn't there room in between for the "good", "decent", and "ok" ranged units to live? Can't they get one of these too?

[GlassJaw]

I run 2 units almost always at 50 points and fairly often at 35. I feel they are the core of Blindwater. They serve as both the tarpit and anti-infantry roles, and do both extremely well. They get even better with Barnabas and Maelok especially.

In my experience, Blindwater is quite often outnumbered and again, 2 units of Gators serve to counter that.

So yeah, to me, 2 units are fairly essential.

[MagnustheJust]

Only 2???

I'm at 3, and still considering a 4th...

But then again, this is me we are talking about.

[Sardonic Artery]

Only 2???

I'm at 3, and still considering a 4th...

But then again, this is me we are talking about.

Shush you. You advised someone not to get 12 spitters.

[The_Wretch]

Yeah, sheesh. Who doesn't need 12 spitters.

[GlassJaw]

I have a 3rd min unit that I'm considering maxing out and painting up like Zomgators!

[MagnustheJust]

Shush you.

Umm... Yeah.

Good luck with that...

[Loki_333]

I'm in the same boat as Magnus, got 3 max and looking at a 4th for the Unbound list I designed based on what's coming out for Domination. I would have liked another infantry unit so that I could just run 1 max per caster and I'm not a huge fan of the way the Bog Trogs look; or light infantry in general.

If you're just playing lower point games then you should be fine, but anything over 35 at this point you'll be looking a multiples of something to make your points without fury management problems.

[talquizar]

Umm... Yeah.

Good luck with that...

many have tried all have failed :P

[PG_Duckboy]

only reason why i am at 2, is because i am waiting for the repackage and should pick up 2 more units.

[Sellsword]

I think a much bigger issue with minions in general is not the whole "codex creep" issue that was originally cited, but the obvious issues with minions. Everyone can take them! Play testing and balance with minion units is a must since they are generally available to every faction. So essentially you are giving every army out there (pigs aside) a new unit, imho that's a big step and I can understand and even applaud the decision to go slow on that. As for holding out on getting a second unit becuase you see something better coming down the pike, well, I say buy max field allowance of every model and that gives more flexability and as your army grows you get into larger games with more than one caster, part of the fun after all.

[Rollis]

Another thing to take into consideration is that more than likely you won't see these future units for quite a while. They are still releasing Wrath models. Domination hasn't even been released. And then it'll be on to the next Warmachine book. So you can opt out of having a second infantry unit for...what, a year and a half to two years? GMP are arguably one of the best infantry units in the game. I don't suggest skipping on 2.

[Washburn]

Two max units form the core of my Blindwater lists, never let me down. Two units of the same model is boring, and you'll need to be creative to convert them into being different from each other. Painting them different, like gators or crocs from different regions, also works. I made my second unit into 'zombie crocs' to fit in with Maelok.

But two units really does work well together, especially with Maelok.

[CPFinnit]

I pretty much always run two full GMPs at 35. They do what they do very well on their own and both Barney and Maelok make them even better.

[PG_Fritzagelmann]

Only 2???

I'm at 3, and still considering a 4th...

But then again, this is me we are talking about.

I have 4 units and love them. I can't believe anyone out there wouldn't have at least 2 units of GMP

[Sardonic Artery]

Yeah, I think it's time to concede and buy a second when the complete box comes out -- painting the two units different colors.

[iveysdad]

the only thing i can think of to say about the crap ranged unit comment is that i thought the same with my skorne army and we just got slingers with arcing fire, and corrosion aoe attacks.. ***? and they are as cheap as praetorian swordsmen? yeah...

don't lose hope in that archer fish unit you want. and if they get released as "archer fish posse" i will laugh and claim the name ...

[brotherscott]

Two units may be inevitable...


I ended up with two units of Gatormen, and have been contemplating a third...

In smaller games I usually go with a full unit and a minimum unit of Bog Trogs for variety, but I don't mind filling up on 'beasts, either.

I suppose I will wait to see over the next year if they come out with some sort of ranged "Fish Posse Archer Unit" ...

[Silopolis]

There's no reason not to buy two units and max them the hell out.

Gatormen are, in my opinion, hands down the best heavy infantry in the game, and Gators can bring more of them and make them even better.

Last night I faced Maelok's gatormen. ARM 20 Undead gators in melee, ARM 22 on the feat turn. Three of them took my War Hog down to three wounds left in one round--the round after they murdered an entire minimum unit of Brigands.

Buy them, paint them, and run them in every game. They're seriously that good.

[Halfhoot]

I have been fairly successful with just my one unit of Posse... but I do think I might break down and get a second unit. I'm almost always extremely outnumbered.

Oh and I'd say the new immovable Skorne Beast competes with Mulg and the Deathjack honestly. He may not be able to kill *quite* as well... but it's well enough and killing him will take extreme effort. I don't know how we'll kill him in blindwater. Can't drag him down and you get bumped out of melee after you get a hit in and his armor is so high even a Wrastler will be having trouble doing more than scratch and the rest of our army will barely touch him. We'll have to run something at the right angle to be a push stop for a charging Wrastler and pray for good damage rolls.

[phreaker187]

With Maelok I'm almost thinking 2x posse is a must in 35 games. They're just so good!

[PG_Deathraven]

I play mostly 35pts with one max posse and min Trogs. Yet to try out Maelok though, I'm waiting for some of his buddies from Domination to come out first.

[PG_fildrigar]

(can anyone name me a character Wrath jack / Domination beast that can compete with Mulg and Deathjack?)

Ghetorix would like a word with you. AXE!

[Rollis]

I have been fairly successful with just my one unit of Posse... but I do think I might break down and get a second unit. I'm almost always extremely outnumbered.

Oh and I'd say the new immovable Skorne Beast competes with Mulg and the Deathjack honestly. He may not be able to kill *quite* as well... but it's well enough and killing him will take extreme effort. I don't know how we'll kill him in blindwater. Can't drag him down and you get bumped out of melee after you get a hit in and his armor is so high even a Wrastler will be having trouble doing more than scratch and the rest of our army will barely touch him. We'll have to run something at the right angle to be a push stop for a charging Wrastler and pray for good damage rolls.

I got around a similar issue taking on the Cygnar battle engine, when struck in melee it pushes you away. My solution? Move a Snapper up and have it stand a bit away. Wrastler walks up in front of the Snapper and beats on the engine. He cant get pushed back, because he just bumps into the Snapper and doesn't move. Not idea, of course, but it's a way to deal with those sorts of things.

[PG_Deathraven]

Ghetorix would like a word with you. AXE!

Infact he'd like to axe you something! *rimshot*

[Butcher's boy]

So far I only have one unit of GMP, maxed. My 35 pt list last night was Barney. Wrastler, Spitter, Snapper, WE&SJ, max unit GMP, Croak Hunter, and a feralgeist to make the points up. I really enjoyed the game but i could definitely see the sense in swapping WE&SJ for more Gators. maybe Santa will be good to me and bring me more

[Khador247]

Last Saturday I won $20 of store credit at a local tourney. I used it to get a minimum unit of Gatormen for my Circle army. I'm less than thrilled with Circle's melee infantry options. So then I came home and ordered a second min unit. It wasn't because I wanted a second unit but rather because I didn't want to buy two blisters and have three of the five gators in the same pose. I hate that. What do I get the feeling that $20 of store credit is going to end up costing me a lot more down the road? Lol.

Barnabus is awesome. I knew it when I read his rules for the first time and after having faced him it just confirmed what I thought. When I first read Calaban I thought he paled in comparison. After going up against him at the Mid Atlantic Team Tourney and losing every model in my army I gained respect. His feat can be really devastating. Along comes Domination and Maelok. I love his rules. His feat is just sick. I like him in the fluff too. I hope that he gets his revenge against Calaban.

So yeah fighting the temptation to start a Gator army is going to be tough. At least I wouldn't need to buy many models I guess.

[MagnustheJust]

Last Saturday I won $20 of store credit at a local tourney. I used it to get a minimum unit of Gatormen for my Circle army. I'm less than thrilled with Circle's melee infantry options. So then I came home and ordered a second min unit. It wasn't because I wanted a second unit but rather because I didn't want to buy two blisters and have three of the five gators in the same pose. I hate that. What do I get the feeling that $20 of store credit is going to end up costing me a lot more down the road? Lol.

Barnabus is awesome. I knew it when I read his rules for the first time and after having faced him it just confirmed what I thought. When I first read Calaban I thought he paled in comparison. After going up against him at the Mid Atlantic Team Tourney and losing every model in my army I gained respect. His feat can be really devastating. Along comes Domination and Maelok. I love his rules. His feat is just sick. I like him in the fluff too. I hope that he gets his revenge against Calaban.

So yeah fighting the temptation to start a Gator army is going to be tough. At least I wouldn't need to buy many models I guess.

Ive said it before, and I'll say it again...


Once you go Gator, Ain't nothin' greater!!

[MagneticFreak]

Lately I had very bad moments with my gators. My opponents appeared to be aware of their potential and sent beasts at ARM 20 to kill a model per hit...and decimated my unit fairly easily. I guess they are some things I still dont know how to do, but their lack of bite ( As opposed to Sentinels or Forgeguards) really keep their number maxed to 5.

[Michael]

For the original poster:

I dread facing two units (or more) of Posses. They're nasty in melee and tough to crack. Two P+S 13 attacks, and all of their various prayers and other spell buffs, turn even one or two of these guys into wrecking machines.

I personally believe that investing in two (or more!) of these units is a great idea.

[Shado]

I never play with less than 2 full units. I just find that a full unit of posse is just more effective than a beast in most games. The only reason I take beasts these days is just for high ARM cracking or the beast's aniums or if I want ranged attacks. Else wise, Spam the board with Gatormen Posse! I currently have 4 full units of GMP. I have decided to get another unit.

[Sevwall]

The debate Is whether you should get 3 units. 2 is a given.