Evayl - Hit & Run

[Neutralyze]

ok guys, im here to actually put forth some information to spark ligitimate discussion about Evayl. I think we are looking at Evayl in a weird light currently. we keep on trying to make a list which are similar to her pVayl lists. so here are some things i thought about today while at the gym.

refuge is a very powerful spell and knowing how to make best use of the spell. we have a slew of models in an evayl list that we typically dont look at in many other lists. here is the list of models that i think can make great use of refuge

Typhon - move 6" and spray 8" with 3 sprays gives you a great chance of making refuge trigger and move back to safety.

Angelius - charge 10" with 2" reach and hit a target hard. from there, repulse those targets and move 7" backwards. that puts you 12" away from the direct threat if nothing was behind it to begin with.

Seraph - nothing too special. 16" threat strafe to safety. multiple shots grant better chance of refuge triggering. i do feel that this models SS in this list might provide crucial threat ranges to play the list correct.

raek - can threaten a far 12" with leap and then get a fake sprint away with refuge. can be nifty for taking out models on the sides and getting to safety.

Harrier - i think this model has great potential with refuge. you charge in with true strike, refuge over the models then sprint away into the back field and begin threatening those models. 2 pts and can threaten more than we think.

Sorceress and Hellion - spd 8 with a spray 8 with the ability to grant free charges to the angelius and harrier is great. then you throw refuge on her and she can ride by attack, spray and move 8 away. pretty nice!

throne of everblight - the more i think about this model with refuge it makes me pretty happy. 12" threat with 3 base attacks and battle wizard all increase the chances of trigger refuge. best of all it has 4" reach so when it moves away 5" it can be a little safer 9" away before you possibly SS it backwards or cycle stealth on it.

anyssa - this is a no brainer. move 9" shoot 12" then move 9" from refuge and 5" from light cav moves means shes way in the back field threatening the opponents support pieces.

Deathstalker - while not the most optimal of models to place refuge on, it could still get pretty far. moves 7" shoots 12" then if it hits and kills 2 warrior models it moves a total of 4" and then 7" away. can easily get behind the army as well and threaten key models at only 2 pts. obviously pow 10 might not kill important models such as vassals and other medium armor 5 life guys.

bayal - obviously you need hex hunters with him but who doesnt like shadow bind + refuge?

List saturation

i only listed a few models that got me thinking of a possible new build with her. the problem with everything is that at most youll have 2 models with refuge a turn if you cycle properly. so while trying to cram in all the above models into a list is cool, it might not be as optimal.

i purposely didnt list models like long range ravagore or pillow fisted proteus. i think most of the above models work well together in the long run.

please post your thoughts regarding my above quasi list. i will be making an army out of mostly the above models to see how it plays.

[Seferon]

The raek i'm not so sure of to be honest. Its a good idea, but from what you listed, there are better targets for refuge in my opinion. I do like the idea on the Harrier, never really thought about that actually. It makes me really think that the spawning vessel with her could be pretty good. Spawn a harrier, refuge it, let it go at the front lines then fly over like you said? Pretty nasty, especially if your opponent has to dedicate a heavy or some other key model to killing it. Sure, dedicate your key model to killing my free lesser.

I don't think the Deathstalker is worth refuge. Great solo, just think there will be better targets for it. The Sorceress with Refuge is something that didn't come to my mind actually. This is starting to sound a lot like a Flying Circus with all the flight. XD

I'm personally thinking that a tarpit unit may actually be good with her to tell the truth. Something the Angelius can fly back over to keep your opponent from getting to it, and if they kill 3 models of that "tarpit" while you have a spawning vessel.......Well, here comes that little Harrier flying over your ranks.

Maybe something like the Legionaires or Swordsmen with her or maybe even take the hex hunters.

[Neutralyze]

the raek was listed as was the deathstalker as potential targets. they are just models we arent looking as everything has been angelius, raptors + anyssa etc. i do think the hellion has potential with her and refuge as does the throne.

[Seferon]

Yeah, the throne seems like it could have potential, especially if you could cycle adminition onto it. The hellion really strikes me as a interesting model to use it with. It could also be a second flanking model that can get to the back of your opponents army to threaten some key solos.

I would think the Warchief would be good with Refuge except that its just so damn slow.....

Scather Crew is something else that could be fun with her actually. Fling a aoe then Refuge into a better position for next turns shot. Like, keep one grunt base to base and walk the other one up into range to be base to base with the main model after refuge.

[nachtnebel]

Don't forget Rhylyss, he can cast Kiss of Lyliss and get back into safety afterwards.

[Cadian Munkey]

Don't forget Rhylyss, he can cast Kiss of Lyliss and get back into safety afterwards.

You have to kill a model to trigger refuge no?

-Munkey

[Seferon]

You just have to hit a model. Thats why aoe deviations work well with it. Doesn't matter if you damage the model, just hit it.

[Defenstrator]

The Harrier idea really intrigues me. With a 14" move after it kills it's target you can get it really deep in the back field. And since it's out of CTRL it's likely to frenzy and chomp on the support piece it ran up to. Refuge on Bayal is also a big deal. He finally gets to properly use instead of being extracted with Slipstream or have an Angelius push the target away.

[clineonline]

carnivean can get a nice movement buff from this as well with his normal 19" threat range now increased even more he is scary.

another thing is a shredder. with rabbid. thats a 11inch charge boosted and a free getaway. and its an 8inch getaway thats not to shabby.

getting a spell martyr up the field could be nice too

[PG_Nemlock]

Regarding Angelius + refuge, don't forget she has overtake if she kills a model. I managed to get a charge lane on Eiryss turn 2 with my Angel and exploded her. Overtake back 1 inch then Refuge back into the forest Angel was originally hiding in and she was reset for next turn. (Angelius is just a she to me. No other way around it) Now, hearing about your harrier idea, overtaking Angel towards the enemy caster and refuging straight to caster base was something I totally didn't think of at the time. I've been so focused on making sure my refuge targets yo-yo back that I didn't even consider that. 2 Angels suddenly seems like a fantastic idea. Both of them essentially using refuge as a gigantic threat multiplier instead of a safety net. In that case your enemy offering up a screen helps you out instead of ties your beasts up.

[PG_Shalandar]

The Sorceress/Hellion combo doesn't work for me, but then again I rarely use the sprays compaired to the ability to shut down your opponents ranged options. Love that Angel, Plan to use it ALOT on my Carni twins. Will cycle it so that way they get repeated charges every turn. :-)

[zor]

Now I don't REALLY think that the lists are too much of a different build from pVayl, theres just different reasons to pick the things in the list and then different buffs and effects eVayl will put on them. Double Scythean isn't really as ideal as a scythean and an angel. And MAYBE pulling a seraph for another angel, but its not really too different.
Raptors are still a solid choice as they are with pVayl, but now they can come invisible. Shredder is still an auto-include, forsaken/shepherds...
Maybe the addition of spell martyrs...

[BernieLomax]

also stinger animus can help in a H&R tactics...

[DrakkenBlut]

Ravagore?

Long, long range, a great early Refuge target and a beast likely to be 1in from Vayl so 1 fury on it disappears. Also great animus to give to Typhon or another shooty beast. Scather further limits opposing army's advances, goes well with Admonition applications. Kinda falls behind in melee, though, would do well to include BFS with it.

Also, feat assasination potential: assuming double boosted Obliterations, that would inflict 17 pts of dmg on a 17 ARM target. Considering all the ways Vayl could channel the spells, the sheer threat would force the opposing warcaster to at least partially camp his FOCUS. Warlocks would do fine with just a two Fury reserve, but still it stifles possibilities for the other side.

[PG_speedfreek]

getting a spell martyr up the field could be nice too

Do you mean by charging an own warbeast or something?
It could perhaps give you up to 3" minus walking around the charge target.

Or perhaps charging the front of an enemy unit and then walking through it to juicier targets.

[ReaVeD]

I played Bayal for realtivly long time with pVayl. Tried to make him work pretty much the same way as it is here (SB + Vayls feat), but i couldn't make him tick. I either needed him in a different place than the HH or he just died horribly in early game. I ended up dropping him for a Spawning Vessel and a Spell Martyr (i still play HH with Vayl tough). I think that if he was a solo he would be great, but as unit attachment he's... well maybe not bad but very avarage.

Regards

[Neutralyze]

I modified my post a bit. Was happy about admonition that i didnt realize that its battlegroup only. So cant go on the throne. The hellion refuge is a suggeation. It also helps with fury wfficiency for the qinged beasts.

[Gaspy]

The Spawning vessel is a fantastic Oraculus target, and spawning 2 or 3 Harriers to refuge+sprint into the backfield is not insubstantial. It lets you play WAY back if you want.

As said above, Bayal is all kinds of survivable with eVayl between Repulsion, Refuge and Slipstream.

[Maerik]

One thing that popped into my head is a Refuged heavy beast walking backwards to meet up with your Forsaken. You get to clear that fury, and you get to make sure your Forsakens are staying far back until they're needed. Same goes for Shepherds

[Seferon]

Played her earlier today. Took a couple of the models that were suggested in her with her. Game turned out pretty interesting. I was stupid and basically gave my opponent my Typhon because of running him to far up on my first turn of the game and forgot to put admonition on him. ((Meant to, it just slipped my head honestly.)) Anyways, the Angelius pretty much took out two jacks by itself until my opponent used eStrikers feat and got up onto eVayl after charging at a forsaken he was out of range of. She took 15 points and transferred it. On my next turn, i dropped all upkeeps, cast refuge on Vayl, put icy grip onto striker, healed the seraph a bit so it had all of its aspects and then refuge out of melee. Striker had taken 11 points of damage due to his sword. So, my shredder i had there went rabbid and chomped on Striker. Ended up killing him with his next bought attack.

This was my list.

eVayl +6
Typhon 12
Angelius 9
Seraph 8
Shredder 2
Full Raptors 10
Annyssa 4
Sorceress on a Helion 4
Forsaken 2
Forsaken 2
Spell Martyr x3 3


His list was

eStriker
Hammer Smith
old Rowdy
Stormclad
ATGM
Precursor Knights ((Full))
Storm Guard


If i was to change the list, i would probably drop the forsaken and 1 spell martyr for a harrier and a shepherd.

Mvp that game was the Hellion catching 6 of the ATGM in one spray with a ride by attack and a refuge back into position to let the Angelius charge the stormclad.

[ShepMachine]

I was also thinking about her today...

Really trying to figure out the real power of her feat. Some spells have no synergy at all with it. And some have straightforward applications. But there are a couple that actually have some tech to them.

admonition. No feat trickery here. If you didn't have it on something before feat, you'll have it on now.

occultation. Same as admonition. One thing to note about it is that you had better get a unit with occultation really far away from vayl when she feats, if she plans to pulse purification, because she may not be in range to reapply occultation, and you won't want to waste a spell martyr or her orraculous on it.

obliteration can be cast three times. Thats a decent threat of a spell assassination, as has been mentioned.

purification. Nice as part of the cycle. It won't hurt you to use it while you've got a lot of upkeeps on your force, since they will be right back in business, just so long as you've still got range to cast everything.

The last two have some activation order trickery, which sounds like it will make eVayl pretty skill intensive.

You'll be able to cycle icy grip for free. Upkeep it on a target that you want to kill. Activate all of the things that want to attack the icy grip target, then activate vayl, feat and icy grip something else. Most of us know how to cycle upkeeps, but the reason I think this will be extra tricky, is that you can cycle the next spell as well.

upkeep refuge, activate the model that has it, trigger it, then activate vayl and feat before the next thing you're going to want to refuge with has activated.

Double upkeep cycles, a purificaton followed by a reapplication of admonition, occultation, and a pair of obliterations. It seems like her position on the table, relative to the enemy, and her own friendlies will really make or break the feat. If pVayl scaled with skill, then eVayl will be ridiculous. Even with orraculous, you'll still be wanting a few spell martyrs anyway I think, unless your force was super compact.

Its hard not to be looking for a replacement for cat and mouse, and I totally agree with Neutralize, she doesn't have cat and mouse, so we can't really be playing her with the same type of army. You can get two models worth of cat and mouse every turn, for free on feat turn, I think admonition is way better than dark sentinel, but I'd much rather have incite than icy grip. With chiller and incite, pVayl was able to support some pretty low MATs. It seems to be that this new Vayl will want to bring along more self sufficient beasts, and have less of them, so that she can yo-yo them easier.

I need to get her on the table. She seems really fun, I have no ability to discern if something is powerful or not.

[TormeyOHurt]

I played a 35 point game proxying her and Proteus and I gotta say I really liked them together. I really like the idea of refuge on all the models mentioned above, specificly the Angelius and Bayal. The biggest thing I've noticed is that EVayl is not as forgiving as PVayl is, less mistakes can be made since you've lost Dark Sentinel, and concielment. on the other hand she is a little more fury efficiant if you keep one of her beasts, ie. Proteus or the Angelius that you just refuged back within an inch of her, she can then remove 1 fury before she takes fury in, that makes it a little more comfortable to buy an extra attack, or boost that hit you where iffy about due to fury issues.

I know that one of the comments that has been made about proteus is his inability to really destroy things as well as a carnivean, but he was very useful in the game I played. Refuge went on him, admonition on the Angelius. He moved up boosted his tenticle grab on a pureblood warp wolf, pulled it in, boosted hit and damge, baught and boosted hit. He then refuged back near the shepherd that removed his fury. The warpwolf was then softened up enough that the Angelius' charge took it right out. On his turn, the only thing in fesable range to charge was the angelius, whom simply shifted back when they attempted to engage. Its not always an Ideal situation, but having the Angelius with tenacity on it is still def 15 arm 18 which is not horrible against ranged attacks.

The list I used btw(at 35 I was using her Tier 4 which btw is rather nice.)

EVayl
Proteus
Seraph
Angelius
Harrier
Shredder

Full Pot
Shepherd
Min Hexhunters + Bayal

The only thing in the list that underpreformed was Bayal and the Hexhunters, though that may be because the only thing in the list they could really engage where medium based 8 hit box units, they did do a decent amount of killing, and kept the flank long enough for Vayal and her beasts to do what they needed.

[Neutralyze]

So you can cycle refuge onto 3 targets a turn.

Upkeep it on first target and have it to. Make vayl go next and use it on herself. After shes done you can cast it once more on another target. Obviously its fury intensive unless on feat turn.

[Seferon]

If only we had a ability to let a warbeast do a attack outside of its activation......Would that actually trigger Refuge and you could get two activations of refuge off?

[zor]

Oh god. If evayl kept dark sentinel and that proc'd refuge that would be...oh god...amazing?
Maybe that's why we don't have it...

I feel like the only staple for evayl so far is angel raptors Shredders and forsaken. Heavies are becoming more ymmv.

I really feel like evayl has the potential to be a huge scenario winner with as she can find ways to end up in control zones with a lot of tough decisions for your opponent.

[Neutralyze]

What tough decisions? I dont think shes cramming models down your throat. Hit and run, spray and pray. My list has typon, throne and hellion who all spray. Maybe when the character eestriction stuff happens we might even use a carny.

[zor]

The tough decisions come from the ways you can use your opponent to create repositions. Between double angel and Refuge and admonition you have ability to stretch your battlegroup further...using your opponents positioning and charges.

[Gaspy]

I've already started planning Admonition escape routes between my own small based models. Placing a warrior model to limit non-reach charge options, then leaving a 'backdoor' for the beast to admonition through so enemy models can't block me in. She's really bringing my interest back to the faction.

[Seferon]

I was sitting in my local shop today, thinking about the gatormen and it came to me. Has no one tried the gatormen with eVayl yet? Gatormen + Occulation sounds pretty fun.

[PG_Pszito]

Thanks for throwing out the tasty thoughts, y'all! Refuge in itself is a big enough spell to fully explore the potential of it.

I'm glad the use of it on Vayl was finally mentioned. I feel between her ability to channel, refuge, and admonition/occultation she may be our newest sweet tactical retreating caster. If you can set up your arc node pre-activation she can Lurker up as well to get a full 12-14" anywhere she needs to be and have tech defenses up. In scenario that means she can objective hop like it's her job.

I am honestly in the school of giving her more tools than specializing but I can't overlook her ability to sit in the back with dual ravagores, fury management, and a succubus while pounding out some heavy firepower. On feat she can easily pop two boosted Obliterates, refuge cycle, and help bring the ravagore's guns to bear. 4 boosted, high-pow ranged/spell attacks from a securely safe range is a nasty package. Splash in a seraph/naga/bolt thrower and her ranged game is superb. I'm under the impression that the melee applications of refuge are more situational than they are empowering so I'm focusing on the ranged game. I've always played against a Dire Troll Bomber with refuge on, never an earthborn, a mauler, or mulg. Typhon and Proteus both can be quite powerful with Hit&Runs but ultimately they will likely still be within charge/threat so I would rather animus+admonition them.

My 2 fury so far.

[Maerik]

I'm just sitting down to a 35p game with Vayl2. I'm gonna take this:

Vayl2
-2x Carnivean
-Seraph
-Shredder

Min Raptors
2x Spell Martyr
Swamp Gobbers

I plan to refuge some spraying Carniveans and see how that works.

[Maerik]

So that was a fun game. I was almost tabled, but I squeaked out a Obliteration/snowglobe assassination.

Cycling refuge between two Carniveans was pretty fun. The shenanigans between Slipstream, Refuge, and Admonition were endless and quite hilarious.

I played against Sorcha2, WGDS, IFP, and Beast '09.

The entire time, Vayl was able to stay way far in the back and throw out Oraculi.

[Seferon]

Thanks for throwing out the tasty thoughts, y'all! Refuge in itself is a big enough spell to fully explore the potential of it.

I'm glad the use of it on Vayl was finally mentioned. I feel between her ability to channel, refuge, and admonition/occultation she may be our newest sweet tactical retreating caster. If you can set up your arc node pre-activation she can Lurker up as well to get a full 12-14" anywhere she needs to be and have tech defenses up. In scenario that means she can objective hop like it's her job.

I am honestly in the school of giving her more tools than specializing but I can't overlook her ability to sit in the back with dual ravagores, fury management, and a succubus while pounding out some heavy firepower. On feat she can easily pop two boosted Obliterates, refuge cycle, and help bring the ravagore's guns to bear. 4 boosted, high-pow ranged/spell attacks from a securely safe range is a nasty package. Splash in a seraph/naga/bolt thrower and her ranged game is superb. I'm under the impression that the melee applications of refuge are more situational than they are empowering so I'm focusing on the ranged game. I've always played against a Dire Troll Bomber with refuge on, never an earthborn, a mauler, or mulg. Typhon and Proteus both can be quite powerful with Hit&Runs but ultimately they will likely still be within charge/threat so I would rather animus+admonition them.

My 2 fury so far.

Her melee tricks actually work pretty well to be honest, its just that it works best with the tactic that Neutralyze mentioned about the angelius. I've been taking a pair of Angels and typhon with the Black Frost Shard and getting close to tabling my opponent most of the time. A lot of the time its the Black Frost Shard that moves up, ice cages the target that the angelius is going to charge, then Kiss it and end their activation. From there, a angelius activates and charges at the heavy, armor pierce it, then buys attacks until it is full, then retreats away. The second Angelius does the same thing to the same target, but uses its last 2 furry to repulse everything back and retreat away. A lot of times the two angels have been killing their main target, which the one that did it advances forward with overtake, then repulses and retreats.

This is the list i've been playing with.

eVayl 6
Typhon 12
Angelius 9
Angelius 9
Shredder 2
Raptors 10
Black Frost Shard 5
Sorceress on a Helion 4
Forsaken 2
Spell Martyr 1
Spell Martyr 1
Swamp Gobbers 1

[Necra-Chi]

I like refuge on Typhon. That was the first thing that sprung to mind for me. I'm really bad with getting Typhon killed because I can't resist a good charge or spraying and then he never quite does as much damage as you'd like and then get's charged and dies. Yo Yo typhon is just sick and wrong.

[leo_neil316]

What tough decisions? I dont think shes cramming models down your throat. Hit and run, spray and pray. My list has typon, throne and hellion who all spray. Maybe when the character eestriction stuff happens we might even use a carny.

I dunno, without a damage buff herself the carniveans inherent face shredding power looks really tasty to me. Especially with that 19" assault + refuge letting it play bodyguard.

Add in icy grip on what you want to spray to make the fella more accurate. Shall be interesting to see.

[Dragons_Daughter]

Looking at the "hit and run" theme with refuge on a beast perhaps my thought was that raptors would be a nice touch with that, moving in, shooting, then light cav'ing away. And with occultation on them they'd be pretty nasty.

[brilder]

Proteus creates a lot of sneaky options, if not a lot of power:

Refuge on Proteus
Hit target with 6" tentacle lash
Drag target up to 6"
Hit with granted melee attack
Refuge-advance proteus 2" away
Hit with tentacles
Drag target another 2"

You've just pulled an enemy 8" (probably a little less).

[Seferon]

Proteus creates a lot of sneaky options, if not a lot of power:

Refuge on Proteus
Hit target with 6" tentacle lash
Drag target up to 6"
Hit with granted melee attack
Refuge-advance proteus 2" away
Hit with tentacles
Drag target another 2"


You've just pulled an enemy 8" (probably a little less).

Except that you can't do that. Refuge lets you advance at the end of your activation. Proteus wouldn't get anymore attacks.

[Maerik]

One other thing I wanted to mention about the game I played. I used Serenity as basically a free Tenacity. I could clear that 1 Fury from a Tenacity-battery Shredder. That way, I was playing 9 Fury on the board w/o any Fury Management.

Another good use of Serenity is having 8 Fury on the board and 1 Fury on Vayl if you think you might need a transfer. If you don't transfer, Serenity the 1F away. If you did transfer, you don't need to cut.

[nojinx]

Proteus creates a lot of sneaky options, if not a lot of power:

Refuge on Proteus
Hit target with 6" tentacle lash
Drag target up to 6"
Hit with granted melee attack
Refuge-advance proteus 2" away
Hit with tentacles
Drag target another 2"

You've just pulled an enemy 8" (probably a little less).

Yes. The advance provided by Refuge happens at the end of activation, so no additional attacks, but this is the right idea. Proteus and Refuge can provide a (up to) 6" extraction of a model from its position.

I was wondering if there was a way to get a full unit of Legionnaires w/ UA to charge attack behind the weapon-master character at full force. This may be the answer. What would that be, 4d6 + 21 damage w/ the CMA?