Merc/Minion Updates!

[Mod_Faultie]

The Hordes rules are out! Changes listed below for Mercenary/Minion models.

Merc/Minions
Alten Ashley: +1RAT, -1PC, +2RNG, Monster Hunter only d6points to a branch, gained Swift Hunter
Brun & Lug: -1PC, Immunity Cold (Brun & Lug), -1P+S (Lug)
Dahlia & Skarath: Serpentine now prevents KD, Serpent Strike is only 1Fury now
Gudrun the Wanderer: Always has Berserk, Hangover is now when destroyed, full heal and KD
Lanyssa: No change
Saxon Orrick: Gained Stealth, lost Pathfinder, Tough, Camouflage, and Expert Hunter, gained Reconnaissance (Friendly models in CMD range gain Pathfinder).
Viktor Pendrake: No change

Bonus: Other Minions
Bog Trogs: Gained Powerful Charge
Bone Grinders: No change
Farrow Brigands: FA2, +1RAT, lost Point Blank and Prayers, gained Pathfinder and Bushwhack
Gatorman Posse: No change
Swamp Gobbers: No change
Feralgeist: -1PC, Spiritbind is now any warbeast & cannot activate the same turn, no free charge, slam, etc., no boosting
Rorsh & Brine: -1PC, +1ARM (Rorsh), Tough (Rorsh), Dig In (Rorsh), +1MAT (Brine), Pig Farm now requires that healing actually take place in order to grant Remove from Play.
Totem Hunter: Lost Advance Deployment
Wrong Eye & Snapjaw: No change

Initial thoughts:
Gudrun might be worthwhile now (full Berserk...we'll try it out). He's a SPD6, Pathfinding, AD, MAT7, P+S15 Reach Berserk model with 16 wounds, which is nice to have in Searforge.
Brun & Lug - So, I think most of us wanted them to be able to pull off Flank more consistently. Instead, the pair is now even worse without it. Hmmm...PC9, though (and Immunity Cold?). I think, overall, they're quite fieldable. They're also 2PC cheaper than the initial fieldtest rules, at the cost of only 1POW (but gain Cold immunity). They were over-valued by PP before, but I think 9PC is a decent spot for them.
Saxon - Could be very useful in Agenda armies, now, giving Pathfinder to friendlies within 9". Stealth is nice too!
Alten - Wow...what a kick in the nuts. However, he's now only PC2, setting him on par with other specialist 2PC solos for other factions (like the Sharpshooter, or Kell, etc.) He was severely downgraded, but much cheaper (1/3!)

[Ger]

Alten: I'm okay with this. He's now a much better all rounder and less of a "I kick the hordes player in the nuts and steal his lunch money". As Alten has Pathfinder, Swift Hunter is awesome with him. Especially with RaT 8 and Rng 14. I pop a dude and back up deeper into the forest.

It looks like keeping Alten alive for more of the game will be easier. Since he's 2 points he's much less of a commitment as well.

Ya I'll take that. He's one of my few painted models and I can field him in an all comers list now.

Gudrun seems simpler to understand and I'm happy with that.

Still chewing. I wonder if Searforge players will take Brun and Lug for the anti-freezing.

[Justin Kase]

I am glad they gave Saxon a Pathfinder like ability (actually, a potentially more powerful version of it).

Stealth is another twist of his former abilities.

Sad to see him lose Expert Hunter, though it didn't quite work in FT anyway.

His usefulness has changed, but I will certainly be using him more often in Magnus Agenda for the future

[jwai]

I'm pretty happy with the way they've changed Saxon Orrik. Before, there wasn't much point using him against lists that don't use warbeasts, but now he's a lot more versatile, while still having a few tricks against warbeasts.

[Rosicrucian]

Lanyssa is unchanged! Huzzah! That's all that really mattered to me merc/minion wise.

[Ger]

huh.

Also from the look of Alten's new version of Monster Hunter, that auto d6 damage is in addition to the damage roll instead of replacing it. Not bad for 2 points, especially with his RNG 14 back.

So d6 damage + a Pow 12. Not terrific against heavies. Useful, damage is damage. Against lights though.... Take a Shredder. Your looking at 3d6 total if you hit. (straight dice on the damage roll) Could very well kill one in one shot. Which he couldn't do before. Harrier too.

Still doesn't approach how much damage he could do before. But it's not terrible at all.

[Cannibalbob]

Not sold on Brun & Lug still - sadly.

At 9 points, I may use Brun & Lug with Searforge if I am feeling in a silly mood. But overall they don't impress me much. A Driller still does what they do for a fraction of the cost. A Basher costs less and causes oh so much disruption. Brun & Lug needed a slightly larger threat range - and they did not get it.

But, I will try them out a bit and see how they fare.


On the bright side, they really did improve Rorsh & Brine quite a bit. Dig in is not my favorite change, but it works to make Rorsh a bit more survivable, and Brine was boosted to mat-6. And the pair dropped in cost - yay.

[PG_Askew37]

I'll be fielding Brun and Lug in my Durgen list in a tourny tomorrow, and Gudrun is being used as a solo/light artilery assassin for my Gorten list.

I'll let everyone know how they do with their new roles.

[Rosicrucian]

Just, noticed. Saxon Orrik should be BAD *** with the traitor's theme list.

[Hellspawn]

I was really hoping for more from Brun and Lug. I don't think I'll ever do as good of a painting job as I did on Lug, yet I can't justify fielding them. Sadness. That companion rule just kills them for me. Plus, Cragback doesn't seem to be able to do anything without Lug. He needed weapon master.
Saxxon looks just stupid good though. I'm all for Magnus getting every tool he can!

[CrimsonGuard]

Dahlia also got an extra point of arm, and they're only 9 points now.

[Hjelmen0]

Brun & Lug: It's an interesting change, but they still function well as flankers, which I like.

Gudrun: Great change! I like it!

Feralgeist: I weep for that model. I used it soo much against hordes and it won be several games. Now it's completely useless.

Lanyssa Ryssyl: I'm so happy that she's unchanged. I planned her into my coming Highborn force, and Hunter's Mark makes all the difference between usefull and "don't buy".

[jwai]

Just, noticed. Saxon Orrik should be BAD *** with the traitor's theme list.

This would be to do with being able to hide behind the wrecks but then being able to go right through them when it's time to attack?

[Rosicrucian]

This would be to do with being able to hide behind the wrecks but then being able to go right through them when it's time to attack?

Yup. You got it. And with the Traitor commonly fielding about four jacks that's a lot of cover providing terrain you get to place. Previously it was a little awkward because he had so little pathfinder. Now it's no problem.

[Pendargon]

GO AGENDA SAXON!!!
That's what i always wanted to hear!
Pathfinder wherever i need it, coupled with an awesome statline and a decent gun! Yeah, baby!

[geistwald]

Pathfinder wherever i need it, coupled with an awesome statline and a decent gun!

All this for 2 points mind you. Almost an auto-include in every single faction he is allowed to join.

[Mod_Faultie]

Dahlia also got an extra point of arm, and they're only 9 points now.

That was in the Holiday update.

[DaughterOfFrankenstein]

Alten Ashley: Is still pretty brutal with Monster Hunter, as Monster Hunter is now triggered on the attack, as opposed to chosen. Bucking Jenny is still a POW 12+2d6 damage roll, +d6 damage that ignores ARM is pretty gravy. He'll be pretty boss against light/lesser warbeasts, and now Heavy Warbeasts aren't quite so flimsy at three (now two) points in cost.

Brun'n Lug: Immune to Stationary, yo. At 9 points, I worry that they'll have a hard time competing with the Avalancher, but we shall see. I'll put them on the table several times because I have faith.

Gudrun: Is now not-horrible while still being not-great, but can probably pay for his points now, as opposed to not. Huzzah. Oh wait... where's Perfect Balance? Nope. Oh well. We shall see how well it serves in Commission/Highborn.

[MoDination]

Brun & Lug help reduce the foc strain on Rhulic 'casters. With Thor marshalling and Brun/Lug you have more focus to dedicate to spells/boosting your own attacks.

I think I will definitely need to pick up Orrik though for all my armies. Maybe Gudrun too...

[Cannibalbob]

Brun & Lug help reduce the foc strain on Rhulic 'casters. With Thor marshalling and Brun/Lug you have more focus to dedicate to spells/boosting your own attacks.

I think I will definitely need to pick up Orrik though for all my armies. Maybe Gudrun too...

Honestly, I don't find that Gorten really has much of a focus strain anymore.


Saxon Orrik is rediculous now.

[Cannibalbob]

Farrow Brigands: FA2, +1RAT, lost Point Blank and Prayers, gained Pathfinder and Bushwhack

The pigs look to have been shafted for the most part. They are now a very ghetto version of Pygmie Bushwhackers...

I was hoping for a reason to make a Grim Angus list with a bunch of Pigs in it. I rather liked the previous version of the rules that made them very hard to hit on the approach and let them fire thier guns in combat.

Now they have Bushwhack and a range of 10".... Did privateer not learn anything from MkI? Pygmies had the same thing - bushwhack and range-10 and they SUCKED hardcore. Try making good use of bushwhack when you don't have crap for range...

[Mod_Faultie]

The pigs look to have been shafted for the most part. They are now a very ghetto version of Pygmie Bushwhackers...

I was hoping for a reason to make a Grim Angus list with a bunch of Pigs in it. I rather liked the previous version of the rules that made them very hard to hit on the approach and let them fire thier guns in combat.

Now they have Bushwhack and a range of 10".... Did privateer not learn anything from MkI? Pygmies had the same thing - bushwhack and range-10 and they SUCKED hardcore. Try making good use of bushwhack when you don't have crap for range...

I would generally agree with this assessment.

[Cannibalbob]

Oh wow.... I just noticed that Lug is now only p+s 15.... He is still mat-5 (Brine managed to get boosted to mat-6), so now he is utterly reliant upon flank for any sort of performance - and yet he is still constrained to a pitiful control range.

I did not expect Brun & Lug to actually get worse... this is just silly.

I hope my friends don't mind if I proxy Lug as another Driller in most games.

[Mod_Faultie]

Oh wow.... I just noticed that Lug is now only p+s 15.... He is still mat-5 (Brine managed to get boosted to mat-6), so now he is utterly reliant upon flank for any sort of performance - and yet he is still constrained to a pitiful control range.

I did not expect Brun & Lug to actually get worse... this is just silly.

I hope my friends don't mind if I proxy Lug as another Driller in most games.

As I mentioned above: the complaints were that they couldn't reliably pull off Flank. The response was that they shouldn't always have to.

The solutions was to make Flank even more necessary.

I...don't think the feedback mattered at all in that regard. At least they're 2PC less than the originally cost.

I think that's not bad, considering their performance. Not an every-list sort of option (like a Driller), but certainly not a shelf-sitter.

[Zyrael]

As I mentioned above: the complaints were that they couldn't reliably pull off Flank. The response was that they shouldn't always have to.

The solutions was to make Flank even more necessary.

I...don't think the feedback mattered at all in that regard. At least they're 2PC less than the originally cost.

The Final Hordes update.... which might be proverbially called the "Nail in the Coffin" does nothing if not prove all feedback didn't matter and/or was ignored.

I thought maybe my Searforge might offer some fun even after my Circle was shattered... but with the Avalancher... and now Brun/Lug... I just can't get enthusiastic.

[Cannibalbob]

As I mentioned above: the complaints were that they couldn't reliably pull off Flank. The response was that they shouldn't always have to.

The solutions was to make Flank even more necessary.

I...don't think the feedback mattered at all in that regard. At least they're 2PC less than the originally cost.

I don't disagree.

The flank requirement and difficulty was my complaint about this pair during the field test as well.

However, I can safely say that outside of Searforge this pair has no purpose whatsoever.

Rorsch & Brine are improved overall. Brine is more accurate and has more attacks than Lug - other than on a flank attack. Rorsch was improved to be more survivable - and the pair can operate somewhat at a distance from each other due to Souie!. Rorsch can now be buffed by Farstrike again - and the pair still has thier movement shenanigans. Also, against living models Brine hits like a sack of bricks.

Wrongeye & Snapjaw did not change at all - except that they essentially became better in relation to Brun & Lug since Lug lost pow. Snapjaw hits harder, can regen his health, can become untargettable by spells or ranged, and has a much larger threat range.

I see nothing that Brun & Lug add to any Hordes faction anymore.

In Searforge they are an expensive pathfinding heavy and a highly mediocre pathfinder solo. They have a fairly small effective threat range (although this is not really new to Searforge). All they really add is pathfinder and some self-sufficiency. However, I personally would rather just have the disposability/redundancy of another Driller. Those things are so cheap I don't care if one gets smashed.

[Mod_Faultie]

I don't think B&L are awful, or anything. I do find it disheartening that their distinct synergy is still just as difficult to maintain (while utilizing their SPD5), but is even more necessary than before.

However, even if they're just okay, I think I'll run them occasionally at 9PC, whereas I would have never run them at 11PC.

[Chuck B]

Im disappointed that Brun and Lug didn't get the changes they needed though the point reduction is nice I'd rather take a Driller or Basher now and save the point for something else.

On the plus side Im very happy with Lanyssa, shes going to be a great 5th B-13th or power booster for pNemo and side kick for Durgen. Her ablity to add +2 to slam movement and to negate pathfinder will come in handy in a Highborn list.

[Mod_Faultie]

Also note: I think Lanyssa will be even more popular now, since they've made Saxon Orrik a veritable auto-include for most factions (due to his Pathfinder aura). Her ability to negate that will be nice.

[Feverdream]

I'm, like, somewhat giddy at the possible opening made by PP with the wording on my favorite Lesser Warlock, Rorsh...

First off, I like his improved survivability and the extra weapons Brine has now.

But what's got me happy is the wording on Rorsh's card, specifically "Farrow Warlock", and that he can only include Minion Farrow Warbeasts in his battlegroup. All the other Lesser Warlocks have "Limited Battlegroup", and mentions the specific names of each warbeast that each caster can take.

Does this hint at more Farrow-y goodness? I can only hope.

I also never figured the Druids of Orboros to be the forgiving types, what with that incident Rorsh had involving a box of dynamite, a dropped cigar, and a sleeping omnipotent, but I see there's a lot of potential for having him join the treehuggers.
The Brigands I purchased long ago, but never played have become fairly workable in a lot of lists now, too. The Bone Grinders used to find their way in many of my lists, and they will continue to do so.

[Hjiryon]

Dahlia and Skarath:
They reduced the cost of Skarath's absolutely useless animus from 2 to 1 fury. I guess that means it goes from "Well... We had to write something there, so we just made sure it's nothing you'd use anyway" to "this may be theoretically useful on the second thursday of the seventh week of the fourteenth month of the year if it's raining and you're playing retribution allied with Goreshade". Nice.

On a more serious note, since Haunting melody will always be upkept, I guess that means Dahlia can now choose to cast Mist Walker on herself or Skarath, and then have one fury left for Serpent Strike (or for transferring damage). It's an improvement, if not a huge one.

[mikethefish]

I can't agree with you Hjiryon. I used the Riposte animus all the time, and having it go from 2 to 1 Focus, I find it to be very useful and have a lot of utility.

[Mod_Faultie]

I can't agree with you Hjiryon. I used the Riposte animus all the time, and having it go from 2 to 1 Focus, I find it to be very useful and have a lot of utility.

This would mean she can cast is on multiple other warbeasts, warjacks, solos, etc.

[mikethefish]

Precisely. If you REALLY really want to, the two of them can put it on 8 different models. Of course, that's probably not so useful, but certainly placing it around on a few key models every round can be quite effective.

Our two other 1 Focus spells that we have access to on various casters are Explosivo, and Influence. Personally I would rather have the Riposte.

[Hjiryon]

Precisely. If you REALLY really want to, the two of them can put it on 8 different models. Of course, that's probably not so useful, but certainly placing it around on a few key models every round can be quite effective.

Our two other 1 Focus spells that we have access to on various casters are Explosivo, and Influence. Personally I would rather have the Riposte.

I guess I can see how running it in a ret list would be useful now that you mention it - we've no shortage of stealthed, high-defense solos - some of them can pack a decent punch, too. Placing something like this on the MHA might actually make her a decent alpha-strike instrument, since trying to take said MHA out in melee afterwards just gets nasty.
I guess I'll have to test it.

[Rosicrucian]

Precisely. If you REALLY really want to, the two of them can put it on 8 different models. Of course, that's probably not so useful, but certainly placing it around on a few key models every round can be quite effective.

Our two other 1 Focus spells that we have access to on various casters are Explosivo, and Influence. Personally I would rather have the Riposte.

I know this is technically the minion forum too, but since you mentioned explosivo and influence... Dahlia and Skarath will not work for any of the contracts.

[geistwald]

I don't think B&L are awful, or anything. I do find it disheartening that their distinct synergy is still just as difficult to maintain (while utilizing their SPD5), but is even more necessary than before.

And then they got Immunity: Cold, but I'm not sure quite why from a mechanical perspective. Was it meant as a buff to offset the debuff to P+S? I'm not sure.

However, even if they're just mediocre, I think I'll run them occasionally at 9PC, whereas I would have never run them at 11PC.

The more I read the new stat cards, the more I feel we just got another Hordes Mk1. While I think Waramchine Mk2 isn't perfect, it was a certain development and it's more collected than Mk1 ever was, especially after Legends. But this release looks like a mess with no apparent conception except for some built-in sales incentive.
Speaking of models I own, I think mk2 Gudrun is balanced and fun and I feel like testing the possibilities he brings on the table. Others like B&L, well I don't even have the urge to try how do they work now. They are not awful, they're just uninteresting.

[Mod_Faultie]

As a note: if you feel that a given model or models are inappropriately stat'd (over/under-powered, wonky, etc.), then please post your thoughts in a concise, logical manner. See the quote from my sig; there is still time to influence the final outcome of the rules.

[geistwald]

You're right, but it's not that I think models are over/under-powered, wonky, etc. Speaking of B&L I think they are fairly priced now, and therefore I really don't care about their cut-back. It's just they have a set of stats and abilities that makes one to play them conservative, while other models work surprisingly straightforward. E.g. Flank is a big boon, the Companion rule is a big restriction, but also affects the use of Flank. Add the poor control of Brun, and you gain a duo of high potential lurking in the woods all game long. They aren't bad by no means, they are good, but compared to models like Saxon Orrik or Gudrun, I can't see conception behind them.

I'll field B&L occasionally because they look awesome and I'll be happy if they win a game or two for me. Anyways, one of my usual opponents plays Sorscha quite often. But in my opinion the rules of the duo are half-baked, just like the overall feel of Hordes mk2. Your sig says "the window of time is fairly short." Well, make it longer. Easy.

[Ger]

What if every Lesser Warlock had an automatic Leash between them and their beast. When one moves the other gets to make a 3" advance Toward them. Interesting concept at least.