A MercPlayer's Dreams

**PG_ikildkenny** · 11-30-2011, 01:02 AM

Ok ... how do I start this ... ...

We all know that Mercs are a sub-par bunch ... and the reason is quite obvious - why make competitive units (for the merc players) that many can have so they won't use their own (competitive units) ... so one might say, that it is "logical" to make merc units sub-par in comparison to faction units ...

That of course creates some difficulties for merc players - sure, our casters are ... fine ... but they are not as good as the in-faction guys (to balance stuff like said units out) but sub-par asswell ... sure, at this point larger games were in mind ... but the reality is, that most games are still single-caster games...

at least a year ago all that wasn't that bad (still) ... since many good merc units still couldn't benefis from "friendly faction"-effects except in mercenary forces ... but than came wrath ...

the introduction of the ranking officers kind of tipped that whole thing in a same direction ... not only were merc units now more than attractive to faction players ... they even got BETTER (to some point) than they were in merc forces (e.g. assulting nyss or oac, eVlad-Feat Crows, etc.)...

so I was thinking ... WHY are merc players punished like this ... after spending ~15 minutes crying in fetal position I accepted that fact ...

But yesterday it struck me:

IF one wants to improve the status quo for both parties (those being the merc players and PP as a company) any suggestion would have to meet two criteria (imho):

1) Any change that is made has to be VERY simple (read: one small paragraph in the next errata should do the trick)
2) Profit! (mainly of finantial nature for PP - if it is clear, that it lets them sell more minis, they might be more willing to do it)

So please, if you make any further suggestions in this thread, keep those two points in Mind ...

Starting with the next post, I'd like to collect some suggestions/feedback to said suggestions ... maybe (just maybe) one or two merc-friendly infernals will read this and consider some suggestions in the next errata....

Without further ado:

**PG_ikildkenny** · 11-30-2011, 01:19 AM

My Suggestions:

A)

Cephalyx Units: this one is bugging me ever since I saw their entry in the Forces of Cryx book: They are Cryx allies - and thus an elligable choice for 4* Armies ... yet they have this itsibits paragraph called "selective" ... sure, one might think this is fine, 4* allready has enough choices ... but I was thinking of simply enabling them some more choices ^^

obviously this works right into point 2) in the first post: giving mercs the chance to use those guys would sell them more to merc players (at least those that do not allready play cryx and have them at there disposal)...

so how could one make this happen? There are three possibilities (imho): Create a Contract, that allows Cephalys-Units OR (considering point 1) in the first post) simple delete said rule via an errata OR add a "Cephalix Allowed" Paragraph to the 4* Syndicates Entry.

The solution is therefore quite simple: The next errata could/should have a paragraph that reads:

Forces of Cryx pp 94 and 95, Cephalyx Mind Slaver & Drudges Card, Cephalyx Overseer Card:
Delete the "Selective" Rule

OR

Forces of Mercenaries p 20, Four Star Syndicate, Army Composition:
Add the Item: "The army can allso include any Cephalyx Models"

As simple as that - more choices (and possibilities/stronger combos maybe) for merc players, more profit for PP, minimal effort!

B)

The Ranking officer problem: Ok ... this is maybe the simplest of all ... and the one with a very frustrating status quo:
Ranking officers make certain merc units for certain faction better ... obviously this is intended and fine as it is ... yet it still is frustrating for Merc players...

Here I have a VERY simple suggestion, that will solve the problem:

Change every Faction-specific Entry of the Ranking officers (e.g. every mention of "Khador" on Valachef's Card/Entry) to "Faction Ally" (including his discription of course) ... as simple as that ... that would still only require a simple paragraph in the next errata ...

*Insert position of Murdochs Page and his Card here*:
Change Every mention of "Cygnar" to "Cygnar Ally"

Rinse and Reapeat for Valachef and Attandent Priest (I know ... redundant, since there is no contract, that allows Protectorate-Allys specifically)

This again works for points 1) and 2) - Merc Players bight even buy BOTH char-attachments ... since they can benefit from both in the specific contract ...

and even fluffwise it (kinda) makes sense: there is no reason for Murdoc NOT to help the resistance ... even if it is only to scout or train a new acquintance for the Cygnaran Army. Similar Reasons (next to: the Kayazis told me) apply to Valachef.

**PG_vytzka** · 11-30-2011, 01:44 AM

I disagree with the premise. We have some extremely powerful units, solos and warcasters, and cheap and efficient jacks. The thing keeping them in check is the disparate nature of mercenary contracts and the lack of Faction tag to benefit from abilities when fielded outside Mercenary armies (and the limited availability and the point cost to remove that with Ranking Officers). Two caster games are not even being balanced for anymore.

If the idea of Shae, Ashlynn or Damiano leading a Faction army doesn't make you crap your pants, you're not looking hard enough.

**Tossy** · 11-30-2011, 01:44 AM

I didn't know Mercs were that much of an underdog. From what I can tell they are, but not as much as everyone says.

As to ranking officer, I haven't seen them in much use. They can create good synergy's but most of the time they are a 2 point sink which could be used better elsewhere. It is why Nyss Hunters get such a good run in Khador armies (because they can do it alone)

Which leads me to the point. Mercs are hard done by, as is the nature of trying to balance across the internal faction and the external ones, however our caster synergies give us a great boost. Our casters are just rude... seriously.

Saying that. If I had a wish list I would want black ogran boarding party to be "Cryx - Ally" as I want them with Shae in my pirates life army

Obviously that means I want in the errata "black ogran boarding party can be used in Shae tier list"

Done and dusted

**pattison** · 11-30-2011, 01:51 AM

Even if I wholeheartedly agree with you, I don't see this happening. The tendencies are not like that.

Yes, Valachev, Murdoch etc. now making Merc units from 'available' to 'hell yeah, we have a trillion new faction units!' and even better.
I mean the point of keeping merc stuff nerfed is to prevent the same merc models appearing in faction armies instead of their own stuff.
Nyss hunters turned out to be too good though...
And now, they're not only allow the faction players to make merc stuff into friendly faction stuff, but they give them additional (great) abilities!
Yes, it's insane. We're freaking starving for unit attachments, and there you go faction players: some assaulting Nyss / Devil Dogs etc.
And we can sit and watch and drool. It's frustrating, I agree.
With this direction (factions can use our stuff betten then we can) new merc casters should start to get really powerful and 'friendly faction' oriented.
I mean I understand that PP needs to sell those less-popular mercenary units, but stopping the punishment of mercs could also be a way besides giving everything plus a little bit to factions.

Also we still have certain uncompatibilities WITHIN mercs, which is honestly plain dumb (see our signature banners for a brilliant example).
In some cases we can't even take our own stuff effectively, while factions get a 'joker' attachment that makes our units do stuff that we can only dream about. I think that this is already over the 'let's keep mercs slightly weaker' policy.

I understand that mercs are a stepchild, but merc players are one of the most creative and enthusiastic branches.
We need some more care and forethought indeed, if PP doesn't want merc players to quit. Still the situation at the moment is more like irritating than unbearable, and I really hope it won't get more unbalanced.

Edit: On the topic of 'strong merc casters'. I agree that we have some really potent casters, but I don't think we can't see similarly broken or even crazier stuff in faction books. The level of power some of the faction casters are on cannot be compared to even the best merc ones. Strong and usable, yes, but not stronger than faction casters.

**Chopsworth** · 11-30-2011, 02:15 AM

IMO all I think it would take to shift mercs up in the power scale would be a few (contract based) caster attachments that had abilities like 'Elite Cadre' or 'Tactics'. Look at what Lord Carver turns Farrows into just by granting them a little bit extra that's not printed on the card. Or frankly, just add thos abilities to our contracts in the first place. As much as I enjoy redeploying a solo, or getting to field and extra unit of Dwarves these abilities rarely (not once for me) are game changers. I dream of a day when Rhulic's have tough built in...

I'm sure I join the list of disgruntled Searforge who known bloody well that the OAC were created for Cygnar's RO, or to see H&J under Irusk's Fire for effect (it's like a Durgen feat turn, ever turn!!!), and let's not even get into what Menoth can do to Forge Guard...

**PG_ikildkenny** · 11-30-2011, 02:24 AM

C)

this one kinda goes in the same direction as A) and similarly B).

Idrian Scirmishirs ... and including point B) the attandant priest ... are Protectorate Allies ... yet the only possibility as a Merc player to use them is Magnus' Theme Force ... so including them in one of the contracts should'nt make any large difference ... of course 4* might be to much but since most of the Mercs that work for cygnar allso work for the Protectorate one could add:

Forces of Mercanaries p. 20, Highborn Covenant, Army Composition
Add to / change the first Item: "... that will work for Cygnar and the Protectorate of Menoth."

In the light of Ashlynn's Fluff and the current political situation in Llael (northern crusade and such) Idrian Scrimishers (and Attendant Priests) kind of make sense ... and afaik this would not lead to strange combination like murdoc leading a unit of scirmishers or a priest leading a unit of precursors (since afaik they are not mercenary models - they are only considered as such in terms of spells/effects - but correct me if I'm wrong (and ignore point C in that cast

))

In case this works/might work as I believe it does, it would satisfy points 1 and 2 of the first Post: Easy to accomplish (it's a one-liner in the errata) and would make merc players consider buying Scirmishers even more ... since ... well ... one can!

D)

This one allready came up at another Position ... and in my Signature ...

To make a long story short: Allow Rockbottom's Coins for Rhulic Units in a Seaforge Comission army ...:

Forces of Mercenaries, p 21, Seaforge Comission, Special Rules
Add the Item: Lord Rockbottom's Paymaster Ability can be used on any Rhulic Modells.

E)

This last point is a bit more wishfull thinking than A-D ... and it requires new Realeases and such so please disregard this a SERIOUS suggestion more like a "Hey PP! Have you thought of THIS? Wouldn't that be SO COOL!" kinda thing.

I) A Merc Battle Engine: I'd love to see a Rhulic Tank of some sorts ... to make things easier for the whole balance-thing ... either only include him in Merc Contracts or ... tie him to a Rhulic Caster so something like:

"Custom Made: The mobile Rhulic Battle Station can only be included in Armies that include a Rhulic Warcaster"

II) Mercenary Ranking Officers: ok ... this one is two ideas in one:

Either:
A Steelhead or a privateer (or both) that gives another merc unit the appropriate keyword (steelhead / privateer) ... the application is relatively simple: a) privateers can be included in the talion charter (and not in shae's theme force - thus making the charter at least theoretically interessting) b) this could and would enable a unit of choice to use the paymaster abilities (Rockbottom, Damiano) - and thus creating interessting combinations (e.g. Nyss hunters with Moneyshot)

Or (the rather crazy one):
put a (character) modell in there, that gives a FACTION Unit the Mercenary Faction ... and call him "the deserter" (or something like that) ... again, interresting combinations for factions (like Gunmages using snipe and MacNail's Minifeat in a Cygnar force) and some cherry-picking for all kinds of stuff for mercs ... allthough that might overdo it

soooo

these are my 5 Suggestion of which 4 are tied to a minimum effort for PP, tip the game balance just slightly in favor for the Merc players out there without breaking it and most importantly - they increase PP's sales (and my collection + painting work *sigh*)!!

Please PP, at least think about them!

@ Strong Casters:
Yes Merc casters are fine to good ... but I do not see ANY merc caster playing the same game and more importantly power level as:
Haley (both), Deneghra (Both), Asphyxious (mostly e), Baldurs, Kruegers, eLylith, Saryn, eCaine, Nemos, virtually any protectorate caster, Hexys, Zaal, etc

in fact ... I'd say our strongest casters (Ashlynn, Gorton, Damiano) are above the "weak ones" and on par with the "third league" of most faction casters ... but seriously, the factions get more love caster-powerlevel-wise

@Vytzka:
I know that we have strong units but the matter of the fact is, that those units have to have an at least as appealing alternative in other factions' armies ... thus they are allmost allways "as strong" as the (second) best alternative for faction players - which is still not uber-par ...
and yes ... Damiano leading a faction force does me crap my pants ... but him leading a merc force does rather not ... and that is sad, considering that most cygnars crap their pants over eHaley ... and Damiano should do that for me .. but the units available don't ... ...

@Tossy: this is imho the beauty of my suggestions: it does in no way change faction balances, it only improves mercs slightly without considerable investment (but considerable profit) on PP's side ...

@ Chopsworth: nice Idea ... and sadly I have to agree with your second paragraph ... the OAC (and maybe even some upcomming merc units) where clearly created to be played with a RO in-Faction and not in-Merc

**Robert Shepherd** · 11-30-2011, 04:32 AM

Ok, so, serious question - would this break the game? If so, how?

Alasdair Demaine, Whisperer of Thamar
Thamarite Mercenary Character Unit Attachment
Whether by promise of wealth, freedom or power, this man has walked a path of merry hell across the Iron Kingdoms, and made traitors and turncoats of all but the most loyal or fanatical of soldiers. Some whisper the depths of his manipulations extend even into necromancy, so strong is his connection and devotion to the Dark Twin.

SPD 6 MAT 6 DEF 15 ARM 13 CMD 8
5 boxes
2pts

Rules:
Ranking Officer
Officer
Stealth
Mercenary: Alasdair Demaine can be included only in mercenary contracts that can include models that work for Cygnar, Khador or Cryx.
Traitor's Path: Alasdair Demaine follows all the rules for ranking officers, with the following exception: a mercenary army that includes Alasdair may also include a single Khador, Cygnar or Cryx non-character infantry unit. Alasdair must be attached to this unit. While Alasdair is in play, this unit is considered to be a thamarite mercenary unit, and not a unit of its original faction.

Magic ability [8]
- Dominate Undead (special attack, as pAlexia)
- Hellfire (special attack, as Darragh Wrathe)
- Sacrificial Strike (special action, as pSkarre)

Weapons:
Stilleto, P+S 9

Tactical tip:
Alasdair and his attached unit can be fielded in Fiona's theme force.

**Chopsworth** · 11-30-2011, 04:56 AM

As a merc player, I don't see this breaking the game as the factions have already done that... Faction players will whine though saying it's BorKen. Altough an high born list that has gun mages and bane thralls.... Maybe, ya know, a little much.

I was thinking more along the lines of attachements that already enhance what we currently have. Like a Rhulic Warcaster attachment that has Elite Cadre: Forge Guard gain tough, Tactics: High Shields that began their activation base to base with another friendly High Shield can ignore free strikes from their front arc, can maybe through down another Rock Wall template or something. Hell, just give me a High Shield weapon attachment that can shoot stealth.

I am all for giving mercs more things, but I really think right now they just need to enhance our current selection of models. Damiano was a good try at advancing the causes of the Steelheads, but his paymaster was just not enough.

Edit: @ Robert: I do love the idea of taking more factions models. Let them work for OUR coin for once.

**MagnustheJust** · 11-30-2011, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by ikildkenny

... a lot of silliness...

Don't make me get the wet noodles and slapping fish...

**PG_ikildkenny** · 11-30-2011, 05:11 AM

@ Magnus
whaaaaat? *makes puppy eyes*

@ Robert
Please keep in mind, that I would like to keep this Thread (more or less) serious and apart from my point E realistic (as in: not things we want released but things PP could do to benefit both sides) ... but nice idea (allthoug getting banes with gunmages might be a little much) - maybe keep cryx-units out of the picture ...

**LiamPiver** · 11-30-2011, 05:18 AM

Rob. I like your overall idea but think you combined an awesome solo with a Ranking Officer making it a little too good for 2 pts. I think you could just make a 2 pt guy that has the Magic Ability 8 and the spells...although I'd change Hellfire to Darkfire (PS14 that causes a terror check is a little strong for a 2 pt solo but a PS 12 range 12 magic attack is fine).

If you look at the Ranking officers they really just give bonuses to the units besides making them friendly. Like Assualt and Go to Ground, Spell Ward, and Zephyr/Disbinding. They aren't really that strong as solos. So I'd make your guy into two things...the kickass solo you mentioned and then a Ranking officer with potentially similar stats...some form of ranged attack...and Defensive Line with a mini feat of pathfinder.

**MagnustheJust** · 11-30-2011, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by ikildkenny

@ Magnus
whaaaaat? *makes puppy eyes*

Unfortunately for you, I was raised by women & house cats... I am immune to *puppy eyes*!!

**PG_ikildkenny** · 11-30-2011, 05:25 AM

@ Magnus ...

mmhh ... thats not good ... should have guessed (being raised by women myself and such ..) ...

nevertheless, I was more refering to sth. along the lines of:

Explain thee, for thee has dared to threthan me honor!

**PG_vytzka** · 11-30-2011, 05:35 AM

Honor? I think he only threatened your dignity

**PG_ikildkenny** · 11-30-2011, 06:20 AM

seriously (and YES sarcasm is incredibly hard to read) ... what is your problem ...

its not like my arguments are childish, unfounded or plain stupid ... those ARE valid points that are adressed by players in this very forum and on other places too..

plus my suggestions are neither unreasonable nor crazy or incredibly hard to put in place ... hell I even WROTE the goddam errata entries that one could use to give us a small hand ...

and all I get from some of the more seasond Merc players is ridicule ... allbeit not only ... or simple condessantion ...

**pattison** · 11-30-2011, 06:56 AM

Easy easy!
Your points are valid even if some of them are not too realistic. But let the infernals decide.
Again: make your voice heard, explain your opinions. It doesn't matter what you believe in, there will always be supporters.
And take it easy.

**Coinlord** · 11-30-2011, 07:17 AM

I think i'm in the minority in saying this, but i actually kind of like that we're under powered. I've always enjoyed the rebel masses sort of army feel, regardless which game i'm playing. The fact that most of our stuff is cheap (if ineffective) means that we can just spam dudes across the board. I cant tell you the number of times (in all of my 9 games, mind you) that i've had people come up and say "Is this guy playing with more points? That's just stupid how many steelheads he has."
I think every faction has its strengths and weaknesses, and cost is definately our strength. Yes, other people can use our stuff, but it's subpar. To make it any good, they have to pay 2 more points, and then they have a really vulnerable solo in said unit which automatically has a target on his forehead.
Page 5, my friends. Defend your weakness, use your strengths, and above all -especially for us- Tactics are key.

Edit: In the interest of respect to the thread creator, i humbly put for the idea that (Sparingly!) a faction only soandso should be released. Usable only by merc warcasters, such as a bodged battle engine.

**pattison** · 11-30-2011, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Coinlord

"Is this guy playing with more points? That's just stupid how many steelheads he has."

It costs 6 points which is the standard price tag on any standard faction phalanx unit with the same body count.
Iron Fang Pikemen, Houseguard Halberdiers, etc.
All of them offers something extra compared to the Halbs by default AND they have the opportunity to be even better (and bring 2 more bodies) for 2 points more (UA).
Don't misunderstand me, I love my Halbies, but these are facts.

**Rancor** · 11-30-2011, 07:41 AM

SO I'm not too sure about Mercs, but Searforge does just fine thanks. Gorten is in the top 5 casters. Driller is in Top 5 non-character heavies. Gunner/Blaster is in top 5 non-character lights. Thor is the best jack marshal in the game, uncontested. We have access to the best minion warlock. So nothing underpowered here.

**Bittersashes** · 11-30-2011, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by ikildkenny

its not like my arguments are childish, unfounded or plain stupid ... those ARE valid points that are adressed by players in this very forum and on other places too..

plus my suggestions are neither unreasonable nor crazy or incredibly hard to put in place ... hell I even WROTE the goddam errata entries that one could use to give us a small hand ...

That's all your opinion.

Your opinion is not automatically correct.

Agreeing with your opinion is not mandatory.

I disagree with your initial analysis, I do not think your proposed changes are desirable and I think your understanding of both the game as a set of rules and of the game as a managed entity is deeply flawed.

**Rancor** · 11-30-2011, 08:04 AM

Ahhh. The old opinion argument. Okay. Just one thing to toss in here.

If a persons 'Opinion' is shared by 2/3rds of a mass group, it is more of a common understanding and/or accepted belief of that group. I'm not saying that's the situation here, I'm just saying.

**Bittersashes** · 11-30-2011, 08:32 AM

If a persons post contains a fact that has little to do with the previous one, it becomes a non sequitur. I'm not saying that's the situation here, I'm just saying.

**Rancor** · 11-30-2011, 08:35 AM

If a person is obviously taking a jab at someone who was honestly just trying to prevent an argument from breaking out, that person is being slightly impolite. I'm not saying that's the situation here, I'm just saying.

**EvilJosh** · 11-30-2011, 09:35 AM

Anyways...It might just be because I only play Searforge and not the entire Mercs line, but I don't think there is a problem in the first place. Mercs are supposed to be just that, Mercenaries. They're not supposed to be able to have better models or units than a faction because they just don't have the money that a nation has. If they did they wouldn't be mercenaries, they would be either: A) Building their own nation with their loads of cash, or B) a giant and unstoppable corporation. The closest one to this would be Searforge for the former since they already are a nation of their own that simply provide mercenaries to help keep things going the way they want it and the Steelheads as they ARE essentially a Mercenary corporation and the largest one at that.

Outside of those two things everyone else is just a bunch of rag tag units that don't go around sharing their money as a Mercenary faction, and would just as easily run away with the loot from another mercenary unit. There is no reason why they would be considered to have enough money to be at par with a nation much larger and richer than they are (not to mention with their own universities supplying a constant supply of engineers and wizards/priests to keep improving things). Nor do they work together in a regular basis so the idea of merc faction synergies is that they just don't work out very well since they don't necessarily like each other and they definitely don't have loyalty towards one another. Yes, even the pirates are just a ragtag group of scoundrels that would easily cut one another's throat if they thought there was some coin in it (after all they ARE pirates).

The only people that would make sense to have some kind of in group synergy would be steelheads as they are all trained the same way and go to the same Merc school, so to speak and Searforge since they all come from the same land and ultimately have the same goals and loyalty to one another

TL;DR They're supposed to be sub par in stuff since they don't have the support of an entire nation. Aside from Steelheads and Searforge they only work with one another for the battle and against each other next time, it doesn't make sense that they would have the tactics and synergies that are built through the loyalty and practice of working together under a nation's flag.

Edit: Yes, there is also the Llaelese rebels, but they already lost a war and a nation. They shouldn't have the money to have their own army (which every country seemed to agree was never their strong point to begin with) and as rebels you are the underdog by definition.

**Antigonus** · 11-30-2011, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Rancor

SO I'm not too sure about Mercs, but Searforge does just fine thanks. Gorten is in the top 5 casters. Driller is in Top 5 non-character heavies. Gunner/Blaster is in top 5 non-character lights. Thor is the best jack marshal in the game, uncontested. We have access to the best minion warlock. So nothing underpowered here.

Minor point, Rancor - I thought Wrong Eye was the top Lesser Warlock, not Brun.

I think we can all agree that woman-with-snake is the bottom Lesser Warlock on the totem pole, and I'm not quite clear where Rorsh and Brun fit in slots two and three, but Wrong Eye seems to be the best of the bunch - if just for the Fury stat of 4...

**raincaller** · 11-30-2011, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Antigonus

Minor point, Rancor - I thought Wrong Eye was the top Lesser Warlock, not Brun.

I think we can all agree that woman-with-snake is the bottom Lesser Warlock on the totem pole, and I'm not quite clear where Rorsh and Brun fit in slots two and three, but Wrong Eye seems to be the best of the bunch - if just for the Fury stat of 4...

If not for his ability to bring spiny growth to 4* players as well.

**LiamPiver** · 11-30-2011, 12:00 PM

I know this is off topic, but while Wrongeye and Snapjaw do attrition well and have solid speed against living and bring Spiny Growth, I've never caster assasinated with them where I have with Rorsch and Brine....a lot. The general insane Movement Mechanics those two bring to the table put them at number 1 for lessers for me. They are even better under Amador D. for that sweet +3/+3 feat!

**Coinlord** · 11-30-2011, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by pattison

It costs 6 points which is the standard price tag on any standard faction phalanx unit with the same body count.
Iron Fang Pikemen, Houseguard Halberdiers, etc.
All of them offers something extra compared to the Halbs by default AND they have the opportunity to be even better (and bring 2 more bodies) for 2 points more (UA).
Don't misunderstand me, I love my Halbies, but these are facts.

Facts which i thank you for pointing out.
Thank you!
But we also look at our warjacks and find them significantly cheaper than most. In fact, the Nomad, Freebooter, and Driller are all tied with the Berserker (and only the Berserker to my knowledge) for cheapest heavies, and the Buccaneer, Blaster and Gunner ARE the cheapest Lights. This affords us more points to field more units, or even more cheap as dirt jacks.

In the interest of Contributing to the greater discussion, I might include expanding some of the units in the way we saw steelheads, privateers, and kayazy expand. They naturally synergize with each other, and keep to the fluff. This is of course just an idea i'm throwing out there to keep the ball rolling.

**absent** · 11-30-2011, 08:00 PM

IFP(8) and HG halbs(7) are both more expensive than steelheads actually, TFG(6) are the same, mechanithralls(5) cheaper.

I have ten 1st-3rd coins and three trophies since mk 2 came out less than 2 years ago, plus a random release event win that was tournament format and faction coins, almost all with mercs ( i think 2 might be ret, but ret is worse than mercs =) I don't really feel mercs are uncompetitive or so underpowered you cant win events with them. as long as the game stays balanced mercs will be in the thick of things causing trouble. Mercs have some of the best text on feats in the game, great units, great support solos and nicely pointed jacks. Also we just got some character jacks that are pretty nice recently, and we have access to a lot of tricks people are likely not aware of. Not a bad deal.

**PG_vytzka** · 11-30-2011, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by ikildkenny

seriously (and YES sarcasm is incredibly hard to read) ... what is your problem ...

its not like my arguments are childish, unfounded or plain stupid ... those ARE valid points that are adressed by players in this very forum and on other places too..

plus my suggestions are neither unreasonable nor crazy or incredibly hard to put in place ... hell I even WROTE the goddam errata entries that one could use to give us a small hand ...

and all I get from some of the more seasond Merc players is ridicule ... allbeit not only ... or simple condessantion ...

Okay, I apologize. I was just trying to riff off Magnus in good fun but I didn't consider how it might look to someone new on the forums. I didn't intend any offense and I should have phrased it better.

Robert Shepherd - I think ultimately, such broad clauses like any non-character unit from three factions is thematically weaksauce, even if not unbalanced per se. It's better to have a tightly focused UA for a specific unit that would make it interesting and fun. I see specifically the thing you're trying to avoid with the no Protectorate restriction, and posit that a Thamarite Iron Kingdoms Version Of Heavy Metal Band Leader that would be a Choir UA working in Mercenaries would be both more useful and hella awesome. I mean, you can make it a buff dwarf wearing driving gloves (if you know who I'm talking about

) and have it working for Searforge too.

**BakerGaspy** · 11-30-2011, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Coinlord

Facts which i thank you for pointing out.
Thank you!
But we also look at our warjacks and find them significantly cheaper than most. In fact, the Nomad, Freebooter, and Driller are all tied with the Berserker (and only the Berserker to my knowledge) for cheapest heavies, and the Buccaneer, Blaster and Gunner ARE the cheapest Lights. This affords us more points to field more units, or even more cheap as dirt jacks.

In the interest of Contributing to the greater discussion, I might include expanding some of the units in the way we saw steelheads, privateers, and kayazy expand. They naturally synergize with each other, and keep to the fluff. This is of course just an idea i'm throwing out there to keep the ball rolling.

Other heavies just off the top of my head include Crusader and Slayer, lights include Helldiver.

On a side note I agree it would be awesome to see some kind of warcaster attachments, as these would bring in money to PP and could work out a nice couple synergies.
I would also love to see Rockbottom's coins work for Searforge, and I think you're correct that this would not be anything breaking, just a nice addition.

**MagnustheJust** · 11-30-2011, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by ikildkenny

seriously (and YES sarcasm is incredibly hard to read) ... what is your problem ...

its not like my arguments are childish, unfounded or plain stupid ... those ARE valid points that are adressed by players in this very forum and on other places too..

plus my suggestions are neither unreasonable nor crazy or incredibly hard to put in place ... hell I even WROTE the goddam errata entries that one could use to give us a small hand ...

and all I get from some of the more seasond Merc players is ridicule ... allbeit not only ... or simple condessantion ...

East there Killer...

If you took any of that seriously, you obviously have not read enough of my posts!! I try to NOT be serious as much as possible - a goof I am, lest a bored drone of society I become.

No intent to offend was meant. I most humbly apologize.

Mind you, I still do not agree with the philosophies you have listed in your original post.

In my opinion, you almost have to be a cynical, snarkcastic, & dark humoured bastard to play Mercs in the first place, as well as a glutton for punishment. I have been kicked while I was down most of my life, so it's only natural for me to be drawn to the Underdogs of the IK.

**PG_vytzka** · 11-30-2011, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by pattison

It costs 6 points which is the standard price tag on any standard faction phalanx unit with the same body count.
Iron Fang Pikemen, Houseguard Halberdiers, etc.
All of them offers something extra compared to the Halbs by default AND they have the opportunity to be even better (and bring 2 more bodies) for 2 points more (UA).
Don't misunderstand me, I love my Halbies, but these are facts.

Iron Fang Pikemen cost 5/8. For 4/6 points in Khador you get Winterguard or Kossites, both of which are pretty terrible without further support.

**PG_Askew37** · 11-30-2011, 11:09 PM

Anyone complaining about Mercs not being competitive and having to dress them up have never seen a real Merc player. I have yet to meet a faction my Mercs haven't wiped the floor with.

This type of heresy belongs in the "faction's" forums, not among my fellow sell swords and cutthroats.

**Scowling-Koldun** · 12-01-2011, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by vytzka

Iron Fang Pikemen cost 5/8. For 4/6 points in Khador you get Winterguard or Kossites, both of which are pretty terrible without further support.

But WGI do bloat to a huge size with all thier attachments. The deathstar costs about twice as a min unit for another faction but is about twise as big as well.

**PG_vytzka** · 12-01-2011, 12:15 AM

Yes, and if you add six points to halberdiers you get halberdiers + cav

**pattison** · 12-01-2011, 12:51 AM

Didn't check the point costs sorry.
They're actually 1-2 points more expensive, true.
Anyways I think I'm out of this conversation as it's getting way too emotional and personal. I mean not for me, but still.
In my opinion this thread started as a constructive one, but it seems like that the community cannot accept such suggestions as in the OP.
Still this means for me that the Mercs players in general are satisfied with the way PP handles Mercs.
Normally I'm not afraid of any factions either (even managed to collect more points than they did in the slo gro with Searforge...), but I still think that there are some discrepancies within Mercs that should be eliminated.
Anyways, it's sure that Mercenaries is for the smart player, as it's not that obvious to exploit the strengths of our options as within some of the factions.

**PG_ikildkenny** · 12-01-2011, 01:05 AM

@ Magnus, Vytzka

thx, appreciate it

yes, I was not initially aware of the "tone" one can expect ... I'll take it with good humer the next time (and yes, I am masochistic and I enjoy the challange of playing Underdogs)

nevertheless @Askew

Ok ... so I'm not a real Merc player ... yet ... still I find it more than often ... in this forums as well as in my meta... that mercs are viewed as underdogs ... sometimes even more so than crocs ...

and most objectively - most of my suggestion would not change that ... those are just the things that are "bugging" me ... esspecially since wrath (which was a pure blessing to mercs, I admit) ... and those were just some ideas of things I'd enjoy seeing ...

What still doesn't get in my head... are there seriously (mixed) Merc (only) players that do not want at least some of the stuff I mentioned andor are not "bugged" by things like ROs, Cephalixes, and Rockbottom?

**PG_vytzka** · 12-01-2011, 01:30 AM

Well that's frankly one thing you're going to have to deal with if you want to play Mercenaries. People will say that your army is terrible for no other reason but that they read it on the internet. They will stop saying so once you start beating them, though. So better start learning fast

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