Irusk base army - Coming to terms with the game!

[c0un7_z3r0]

Ok, with some good advice in my back and having regained my hope of maybe winning a game every once and a while I sense that it's time to lay the foundation to my winning spree (well you gotta have some faith )! As I mentioned in my last thread I've played Warmachine for about a year now and have lost close to all games this far. All this loosing made me wonder if it was just me being a crappy player or if a poorly compositioned miniature selection could have anything to do with it as well. I posted a tread about it and luckily most people agreed about my shortcomings being the most probable cause for me getting my butt constantly kicked . One of the advice was to choose a "base army" which is what this thread is all about. Another was that pIrusk, due to my miniature-collection, probably is my best bet (of those casters that I already got, others suggested buying Vlad), something I agree with (though whether my opinion mattes might be up to debate ).

The idea is to go with what I already got in my miniature collection. So, I made the following base list for a 35p (it's the most common size in my meta) game which leaves me with 9 pts to go wild with! Any feedback, advice or random thoughts are more than welcome!

pIrusk -6
War Dog +1
Spriggan +10 --> [toolbox, nice melee punch, target for superiority]
Great Bears +5 --> [they are the bears, 'nuff said!]
Widowmakers +4 --> [seems like a good thing with some ranged support for a generally slow army]
Kell +2 --> [I prefer Kell over the Marksman since he can easily be given stealth, have magic weapon and he can shoot twice! Sure he deals a little less dmg but I'll probably use snipe most of the time anyway...]
Iron Fang Pikemen (full) + UA +10 --> [battle lust/iron flesh anyone?]

So that would be the base army and some thoughts of why they are in my list. Any thoughts this far? Please do feel free to share them with me! Next are the other minis I have to choose from:

Battlegroup
eIrusk
pButcher
Strakhov

Heavy 'jack
Kodiak
Torch
Drago --> [got it cheap from a friend and someday I will go for a Vlad zerker-list, I just have to!]

Kayazy Assassins (full) + UA --> [these will probably be a frequent element in my army, iron fleshed Kayazys are beautiful]
Assault Kommandos (min) + 1 Flame thrower --> [will probably be gathering a lot of dust]
Kossites --> [I love the minis and the idea, someday I'll figure out how to use these properly!]
2xWGI Mortar --> [I had this idea for an eIrusk list, but I couldn't handle it when it hit the table, but they'll surely be useful someday]

2xManhunter
Yuri
Marksman
Koldun Lord
pEiryss
Kovnik Joe --> [same as the Mortars, and a modest start on a WGI deathstar ]

So what do you guys think? Would that be a good base army? If not, considering my miniature selection, what would you do different and why? What would you add and when/why?

And as I said before, please feel free to comment, any feedback are more than welcome!

[Kevin]

Personally I really like the merc unit Nyss Hunters. With 9 points you do a min unit of them plus Valchev (to make in-faction) or the Marksman. Also I would highly consider Doom Reavers with the attachment.

edit: Sorry you also asked why.

Nyss Hunters: Gives you some built in high def with both a good ranged and nasty melee attack; something I think your current list could do with more of. (particularly some more ranged)

Doom Reavers: Their AD, run them at a weaker part of your opponents line with the UA behind somewhat to ensure they have tough. Its a nice distraction giving your bears and IFP time to move up the board. Doomies on one side, Widowmakers on the other, force your opponent to either tighten up the middle (allowing you to complete a double envelopment) or split his force and let you smash one at a time.

[c0un7_z3r0]

Thanks for your reply! I've understood that both Nyss hunters and Doom Reavers are two favored units, and with good reasons I'm sure! Doomies are on my wish list as well, and I've encountered NHs so I do have some sens of what they can do. But, and I totally failed to mention this (I'm terribly sorry about that) but I like to go with what I already got and buy additional minis as I start to learn the game. But again, thanks for your suggestions, the DR-advice sounds like lots of fun, I'll try that some day!

[Kevin]

Roger that. With what you have listed then I would add the kayazy assassins! Their nasty in melee with the UA.

[tutenkharnage]

I don't know all of Kell Bailoch's rules, so I have to rely on what you've written and BattleCollege. I just don't understand how he's better than the Widowmaker Marksman, based on what's written, if you're going to take Widowmakers anyway.

• Both have Advance Deployment (advantage: push).
• Both have Sniper (advantage: push).
• The Marksman has Pathfinder, which lets him make better use of Swift Hunter (advantage: Marksman).
• Kell has Prowl, which essentially gives him Stealth if he has concealment, but the Marksman comes with Stealth and has Camouflage, which gives him +2 DEF when he benefits from concealment or cover (advantage: Marksman).
• Both have Swift Hunter, but the Marksman provides Swift Hunter to your Widowmakers, too (advantage: Marksman, although Kell Bailoch can use it more often courtesy of Dual Shot).
• Kell has Dual Shot (advantage: Bailoch).
• The Marksman, based on what you've said, has the better POW (advantage: Marksman).

Maybe Kell is RAT 9, but I think I'd still rather have the Marksman if I'm taking the Widowmakers anyway--he seems to be even with Bailoch, at worst, but he makes four other ranged models even better. What am I missing?

[Frege]

Kellyhas a magic weapon!

[c0un7_z3r0]

Well simply because Kell generally have proven to be more useful to me. His magic weapon shouldn't be overlooked in the first place and since I don't have either Greylords or Doomies it's comforting to have. He is not a substitute for either of those but he's actually been useful on a couple occasions because of that. But most of all, he can fire twice which, in the games I've played means he does twice the damage. The marksman has some nice abilities, but I rarely find them useful. Sure his higher pow is nice but I often find it abundant, and if I'm using snipe (which I tend to do) he actually does less dmg anyway. But I do field him from time to time, it's just that Kell comes along more often .

[Uhlan_Kommander]

Thats pretty much how I started my Khador, except I had a Behemoth. Its a solid start.

[bitmatic]

Both have Swift Hunter, but the Marksman provides Swift Hunter to your Widowmakers, too (advantage: Marksman, although Kell Bailoch can use it more often courtesy of Dual Shot).

Kell doesn't have swift hunter.

What am I missing?

To me the defining difference between the 2 are Kell's magic weapon, which you left out in your list. Having a magical ranged attack may be somewhat situational, but against certain armies it is invaluable.

[tutenkharnage]

Durr, I read good! No Swift Hunter on Bailoch, right. Okay, I think I've got a better handle on the comparison now. I still think I'd take the Marksman if I'm already taking Widowmakers, but maybe it's because there's not much in my meta that gets damaged by magic attacks only.

[jameslsummers]

plus with that pow 12 shot, on one of the bonechickens from cryx you have a pretty good chance of taking half its arc node out with one shot and then two shots from the widowmakers and its use just dwinded to not very much.

[Krazy_Ivan]

pretty solid Irusk list you have there. Its a toss up between the IFP or the Kayazy's you have. I guess it really boils down to how much AOE you think you'll encounter. Kazazy's w/ iron flesh and the UA have something like, 19 deff in melee + stealth. If your up against a knockdown caster or aoe spam tho, the IFP might be a better option.

I guess if your loosing so much it makes me wonder who yer playing against. I would say deff look for new players like yourself to cut your teeth with (if your not already). Getting curb stomped by experienced players is no fun. Its good xp , but can be very demoralizing. I'm quite new my self, but my buddies i play with are too. so most of the matches are usually pretty even, and you should deff be able to get some wins with khador. I've no xp with horde armies tho. I hear they're pretty nasty for us, so that could be why too if your facing down a lot of horde players.

[c0un7_z3r0]

To me, the Marksman and Kell does the same thing kind of, there are differences and sometimes I've found one more useful than the other. So I will be alternating between them both (if taking anyone) from game to game. At the moment, Kell is my man though! But we'll see, things might change...

One question about Behemoth though, is he more preferable than Spriggan in this list, or does it all come down to what my plan is and what I'm facing?

Krazy_Ivan - In what way are Kayazy's more vulnerable to AOEs and knockdown? Is it because AOEs can circumvent stealth and, considering their low arm, even blast damage is a nasty thing for a Kayazy? If it is I guess the same goes for knockdown, with their low arm, a knocked down Kayazy is kind of squishy (though IFPs would kinda be in the same situation wouldn't they?)? But yes I will probably alternate between IFPs and Kayazys as my core unit (kayazys + IF = pure love). The other players in my gaming association (is that the correct English term) are quite experienced, having played WM for several years, so I guess the resistance is quite tough. They try to help me though and they are a really nice bunch actually! There are both WM and Hordes players and I believe most of Iron Kingdoms nations are represented (I don't know about Retribution though) and there are at least one Troll and one Legion player.

[tutenkharnage]

You've got the gist of it. Once you're knocked down, it's all about ARM, and the extra 3 points for the IFP help. The same applies to AOEs: 5 out of 6 Kayazy who eat a POW 7 blast die; only 5 out of 12 IFP (i.e., half as many as Kayazy) do.

[c0un7_z3r0]

tutenkharnage - So, there might be hope for me still

[tutenkharnage]

Hey, I survived this long, and I know what I'm talking about only half the time, so there's plenty of hope, sure

[Krazy_Ivan]

You've got the gist of it. Once you're knocked down, it's all about ARM, and the extra 3 points for the IFP help. The same applies to AOEs: 5 out of 6 Kayazy who eat a POW 7 blast die; only 5 out of 12 IFP (i.e., half as many as Kayazy) do.

pretty much this. The extra arm on the IFP can help a bit if they're knocked down vs the arm 11 on the kayazy. Knock a Kayazy down, or find a way to circumvent their def, and they're pretty much dead before the damage dice even hit the table. IFP on the other hand, with shield wall, go up to arm 18. Thats pretty significant and they should survive almost any blast that doesn't originate behind them, assuming they're on there feet.

[Krazy_Ivan]

The other players in my gaming association (is that the correct English term) are quite experienced, having played WM for several years, so I guess the resistance is quite tough. They try to help me though and they are a really nice bunch actually! There are both WM and Hordes players and I believe most of Iron Kingdoms nations are represented (I don't know about Retribution though) and there are at least one Troll and one Legion player.

hehe, i had a feeling. Khador is one of the original armys, so anyone whos been playing awhile knows exactly how to play against them. They'll try to make it a good game (if they're good guys), but they will really make you work for a win. Even with a good list, you'll still have a hard time. you'll learn a lot playing with them tho, and as long as you have fun, thats what the point is. Try to look for newer players to pair up with and play against. Or maybe find a player thats trying out a new army.

[c0un7_z3r0]

Krazy_Ivan -I haven't played at the local gaming association the last couple of months (due to my studies) so there might have popped up some new players, who knows!

Just a general question, in my meta people are pretty fond of 'jacks/beasts and I often find myself being the one with the least amount of 'jacks on the table. And I find infantry ws jacks to be a terrible match-up for the infantry (though I haven't played pIrusk before, hence haven't used battle lust). So my question is, how do I successfully match infantry against 'jacks? Battle lust?

[tutenkharnage]

Take Butcher to the store with you. Bring friends. Large, metal friends.

[c0un7_z3r0]

Take Butcher to the store with you. Bring friends. Large, metal friends.

Yeah I suppose that's one way to go. I've tried a pButcher list with a juggernaut, marauder, kodiak, max kayazy + ua, bears and dog ("the trinity" got it from listology) which was plenty of fun to play and seems easy enough to modify without the list loosing it's bite.

But that doesn't help me facing my opponents "big metal friends" (or big fleshy friends, hmmm, did that sound a bit awkward?) with pIrusk . Perhaps destroying my opponents 'jacks/beasts is second to stalling them? Kayazys with Iron Flesh should be a pain for most 'jacks and even though kayazys aren't any heavy hitters, a couple of free strikes from them should be discouraging enough. Is that how I should match those big fellas with my infantry?

[PG_Pickles]

Battlelusted Kayazy are heavy hitters & Battlelust lasts for a round.

Battlelusted Bears will destroy pretty much any beast or jack on the charge most of the time. IFP may stretch to 2 but will suffer more against high defence (though feat helps) & have a bigger footprint. I mostly use them to get the Bears in.

Raarh Battlelust

Anyway your main list looks OK to me. You might be suffering due to realy tricked out lists played by very good players but it has tools. Possibly more/better antiinfantry would be good useful but you dont seem to have a problem with that.

I noticed you are looking to fill the list out doh. I would add odds & sods - solos & mini units like a mortar, marksman & min kossites - more anti infantry.
Eiryss, min kayazy & UA losing the dog- Kayazy form a second wave for possible assassinations or a first wave if there are no AOE to jam up & let the IFP charge.
Wyshnaylor looks good with Irusk - he should be too far back to need a wardog

[c0un7_z3r0]

You might be suffering due to realy tricked out lists

Pickles - I didn't really get that part (the quote) but what you otherwise purpose seems reasonable. I will definitely look more into Sylys Wyshnalyrr, he seem to have some interesting abilities! I suppose Kayazys with Battle Lust are heavy hitters. The reason I didn't took Battle lust into account when ranting about IF & Kayazys is that I assumed units with better dmg. output would be the targets for BL already (IFPs & the Bears). The thought of dropping the dog for Eiryss and min Kayazys + UA have struck med as well and that might be the better choice actually. Though I might get out and buy eEiryss instead (since I face both WM and Hordes players). Thanks for your thoughts and advice!

[PG_Pickles]

I meant people playing their finely tuned tournament lists with all the models they are best with.

There is also a risk in any small meta (& we pretty much all play in small meta's really) that you will hit bad match ups consistently.

The first units to charge will be the ones with Battle Lust but as you can't charge & be Iron Fleshed they will probably all (most) die to counter attacks so the next turn someone else gets buffed.

TBH I have not played pIrusk in years & eIrusk who I do use plays differently.

[Irusk1]

I would say that if you MUST use only what you have then go with the pIrusk list, take out the dog and add a full unit of Kayazy with UA. I feel they are too good to pass up with pIrusk (DEF 19 with iron flesh in melee is just too good to pass up and with feat they wont be getting knocked down and gain a turn of super tough). Also, with Battle lust they are only 1 point lower in POW than IFP so they are almost just as good as scrapping heavy armour.

Now, my honest opinion on your list (and i don't know what your meta is but god help you if its filled with denegraghs/bile thralls or menoth super buff lists or even eLyliths like my awesome meta) is that its not versatile enough. I would personally take the IFP out and put in full winter guard with UA and kovnik Joe for those 10 points and find a way to sneak eEiryss in your list along with Saxon Orrick. The reason i say this is because winter guard allow you the abillity to shoot stuff at range and hit really high defense while still being pretty survivable and can help you clear out lots and lots of infantry or can combine (as a last resort) still charge a heavy armour jack/beast while battle lusted and tear it to pieces. Eiryss will let you knock off upkeep spells (on your own guys too like crippling grasp and the sort) and saxon will give you path finder when you need it (again, i don't know what your meta or terrain set up is like though but i definitely find when i play in a tournament i need it).

The above is my honest and personal opinion and i have been playing pIrusk since MKI (which really means nothing) and i have had plenty of time to lose many a game with him and learn him to a point where i very rarely lose when i use him.

[c0un7_z3r0]

Irusk1 - Thanks for your honest opinion! My greatest fear have been that someone would say something along those lines. I suspected that I would regret buying IFPs instead of WGIs, but I knew little of the game then and went for the obvious stuff like mat, def, arm, p+s etc., as well as aesthetics. Luckily my meta doesn't contain much of what you just mentioned, but I have met Bile Thralls and do not wish to do so again . The reason why I want to stick to what I got is that I like to have a WYSIWYG-list and I don't really have the economy to buy a full unit or the energy to paint it ... But "I hear ya", and I will seriously consider it. Would some Grey Lords help the situation, they got sprays (as well as cloud effects and it would be so much cheaper)?

[Irusk1]

Grey lords are an interesting unit and many people love them here on the forums (i'm not one of those people). I find that at 35 point games if you want sprays then grey lords are not the way to go because they die super easily and are never in a good position to get off some good sprays due to them being tucked away in the back hiding from anything and everything.

Given what you have, if i had to build a list without taking winter guard i would take:

pIrusk
Spriggan
War Dog

full IFP w/ UA
full Kayazy w/ UA
Great Bears

eEiryss (i don't know if you have her but its 1 model that khador needs)
Saxon (i don't know if you have him but same as above)

That is a pretty solid army and if you have beast-09 i would personally swap out Spriggan and War Dog for him but in the configuration above, that list should do fairly well against almost anything you come up against (pray you don't run into bile thralls) but when you eventually get the opportunity i would swap out IFP for full winter guard w/ UA and Kovnik Joe (figured i would mention it again seeing how Christmas is right around the corner).

[c0un7_z3r0]

Irusk1 - It's thoughtful of you to encourage me to take advantage of the coming celebration , unfortunately neither me, my girlfriend or my family does x-mas gifts anymore... And I trust you know your stuff but the list you suggests hardly contain any ranged support, won't that be a problem?

About my lack of WGIs, what about Nyss Hunters + Valachev? Just to clarify, this is just my thoughts (deranged as they might be ), not some claim on any universal knowledge. Now, wouldn't Cylena & Nyss be a better (or another good) option? They do have better treat range with their bows, sure WGIs + Joe can get boosted ATT rolls and, with the O&S UA, some nice sprays. But Cylena & Nyss got combined ranged, Hunter and a better RAT plus that Valachev does have some nice tricks up his sleeves! On top of this, Nyss do have weapon master and higher p+s. Sure with bears strength WGIs will have p+s 11 ws 9 but with weapon master considered Nyss hunters will roll an average of 19.5 while WGIs will roll 18 (I'm not a mathematician so correct me if I'm wrong). With the S&O UA WGIs gets combined melee and so their dmg. output will increase, traded for less attacks or course (but if you juts got to crack 'that armor' I guess its handy). OK, this is not an attempt to do an extensive comparison between the two, I recon that you already know and knows this better than I do and I don't think I got the proper knowledge or experience for such a comparison.

But I do acknowledge WGIs as a handy toolbox and they do have some pretty nice benefits and I reckon that all their tools will be useful to some extent. And compared with the Nyss they seem to have more possibilities to sharpen up when I really matters (ws high DEF/ARM opponents due to combined and Joe etc.). But I'm wondering to which extent this actually matters (this might seem as a dumb question)? I'm also concerned about their range, 8 (+6) which is significantly shorter than 10 (+7) since, to me, WGIs strength (beyond versatility) seems to be their ranged capabilities (please correct me if I'm wrong here). And once in CC Cylena & Nyss does strike me as the better choice, higher DEF and better dmg. output (lower arm though)...

So to sum up my thoughts, WGIs seems to be a more versatile but at times blunt weapon, while Nyss seem a little sharper in some prospects though more limited. Am I right in any way or is this just gibberish? Please, anyone, feel free point out any flaws in my reasoning!

Thoughts and ideas are always welcome, so feel free to share them!

[Irusk1]

It does not contain much range support and unless you are fighting a very specific build it should not worry you too much. The idea behind the list is that you are going to run up, engage the enemies front line (preferably with Kayazy) and cast iron flesh on the front line unit and pop your feat. You then get the rest of your army into a good charging/advancing position for the next turn. On the following turn pop mini feat with kayazy and kill all the important stuff hiding in the back, while killing the front line with everything else. Keep grinding it out with the enemy till they have nothing left or till they open up their caster for an assasination via kayazy.

It is a good list for scenerios where the enemy is forced to bring his/her stuff up to contest/capture points.

The Nyss are also a good option with Valachev but i generally don't use them because i find i would rather have a tool box unit like the winter guard infantry but i guess if i didn't have them then for 12 points you can take Nyss + Valachev (but thats a lot of points).

[c0un7_z3r0]

Thanks for the advice, I'll try the army for my next game (suppose I'll have to prox eEiryss and Saxon)!

Hehe, I've compared most of their stats, rules etc. but I never bothered to look at their PC. With the PC and the toolbox-aspect considered WGIs starts too look more and more appealing. And as I did a spotify playlist moments ago for a friend, I ended up listening to a lot of "red army choir"-ish stuff (he wanted something "Russian" that would aid him as he "marched to school"). Then I suddenly felt "do I really want some pansy elves with fruit knives and bows, when I have motherlands finest with proper boom-sticks and axes at my disposal?". Well seriously, Nyss Hunters are really cool but I might start to lean towards WGIs. Thanks for all your advice btw, its interesting to read!

But If I do get WGIs, should I keep my base army as it is and just swap IFPs with WGIs or should I go for something more similar to the list you just suggested?

To everyone else, please feel free to join in and share some thoughts!