pHaley Blitz and StormBlade Assualt

[R Gordon 1028]

I have looked to see if this has already been answered but was unable to find an answer:
pHaley pops her feat - Blitz
StormBlades Assualt
1. Is there an order to resolving the Assualt - All ranged attacks first then melee or finish each model before moving to the next model.
Since Blades can have CMA I assume that all ranged are resolved first then melee?
2. If the target of the Assualt is killed via the ranged BEFORE the melee attack can the Blades make the extra attack, via Blitz, against a new target, ranged or melee?
3. What if two, or more, Blades charge the same target and between the ranged and some of the melee attacks one, or more, Blades does not use his feat attack can he then make a ranged attack against a new target?
I know the rulebook says you can not make ranged and melee inthe same turn, with a few exceptions, but since the target was killed BEFORE the melee attack how would that rule apply?
This is more then one question but since they are sub-questions to the primary question I hope numerous threads are not needed.

[dunce002917]

Here's what I do:

1. I charge, roll the Range attack for each Stormblade, then roll the Melee attack for each Stormblade.

2. I don't see any reason why the Blades could not make a ranged attack on a new target as a result of Blitz. That being said, if the first target was killed by the ranged attack by the Blades, the the Melee attack is gone (unless there is another target within melee range) - Note: This is assuming this situation: 1st blade assaults, hits with range attack (within melee range of enemy), 2nd blade assaults, results same with 1st blade, 3rd blade assaults, range attack destroys enemy target, 4th blade assault new target, etc. After all 5 ranged attacks, Blades 1 & 2 have no enemies in melee range. Blades 3, 4 and 5 are in Melee range of new target. 3,4 and 5 completes Assault order and kills new target. To resolve Blitz, all 5 Blades make an extra attack on any eligible target.

3. I think this is a yes because the only eligible attack is a ranged attack.

Not really sure but this is how I'll play this situation... unless a local press ganger tells me otherwise.

[PG_Agamemnon]

1. Is there an order to resolving the Assualt - All ranged attacks first then melee or finish each model before moving to the next model.

All ranged first then Melee.

2. If the target of the Assualt is killed via the ranged BEFORE the melee attack can the Blades make the extra attack, via Blitz, against a new target, ranged or melee?

No they can only make a Melee attack targeting any model in their melee range.

3. What if two, or more, Blades charge the same target and between the ranged and some of the melee attacks one, or more, Blades does not use his feat attack can he then make a ranged attack against a new target?

No.

Assault only lets you make a ranged attack after movement but before a melee attack. I see it as a special rule that allows you to make a ranged attack during a Charge order. Charges only let you make Melee attacks (Barring special rules on individual models like Virtuoso.)

Assume "Blitz" affects all models.

1. Unit is given the Assault order.
2. Models charge or run
3. Models that ran are done with activation... period -no Blitz-
4. Models that charged get to make a ranged attack at the end of their movement regardless of if they made it into melee with their charge target.
5. Resolve all ranged attacks.
6. Models that did not make it into melee with their charge target are done with activation.... period -no Blitz-
7. Models that made it into melee with their charge target can now make a melee attack against the charge target with boosted damage.
8. Models that made it into melee with their charge target but the target was killed by ranged attacks may make melee attacks against another model in their melee range. No boosted attack rolls.
9. Blitz attacks.
10. All models that made it into melee with their charge target may now make another melee attack on any model within their melee range. All models that ran or did not make it into melee with their charge target get no "blitz" feat additional attack.
11. No additional ranged attacks for anyone in the unit because an Assault is an order that all models must obey (unless a special rule supersedes).

A different scenario.
6 man unit all affected by Blitz.

1. Unit does not receive an order.
2. Two models sacrifice movement to stand up. (can now make two attacks each. If they are engaged then only melee attacks)
3. Two models sacrifice movement to aim. (Assumes are not engaged since they are aiming. Can make two ranged attacks)
4. Two models advance into melee. (Can now make two melee attacks against any model in melee range)

Blitz allows an additional attack of what ever nature the model made for its initial attack. If that attack was a ranged attack then you get to ignore the ROF rule. If it was a *Attack or anything else along those lines then you get to make one normal attack of the same type. For instance the Sentinels Straife is a *Attack so he would not get to make another *Attack thanks to Blitz but only a single attack. Rapid fire on the Cyclone would allow you to make a D3 attack for Blitz. You can also use any CRA/CMA abilities that a unit may have for any of the attacks that are applicable.

[R Gordon 1028]

Still not clear on WHY
pHaley's feat reads
"Friendly Faction models beginning their activations in Haley's contol area can make one additional atack during their activations this turn regardles of a weapon/s ROF"
No qualifiers about primary attack form, no qualifiers at all.
Assualt (order) reads
"Affected models must run or charge. As part of a charge, after moving but BERFORE making its charge attack, an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged unless they were in melee with each other at the start of the affected model's activation. Models that recievd this order cannot make CRAs this activation...."
No limitations
No requirement that you must make a charge attack even if the target is dead.
if the Blades charge target is dead BEFORE they make the melee attack the model is not violating the rule about not being able to make both ranged and melee attacks in the same activation. How does the PAST possibility of a melee attack negate the extra attack that Blitz gives?

[Dan from Chicago]

Models can make ranged attacks OR melee attacks but not both unless a rule states otherwise. Assault allows you to make a ranged attack prior to resolving the charge attack, however it doesn't allow for more than one. The limitation is in the order.

"Affected models must run or charge. As part of a charge, after moving but BEFORE making its charge attack, an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged unless they were in melee with each other at the start of the affected model's activation. Models that received this order cannot make CRAs this activation...."

[Crate123]

Still not clear on WHY
pHaley's feat reads
"Friendly Faction models beginning their activations in Haley's contol area can make one additional atack during their activations this turn regardles of a weapon/s ROF"
No qualifiers about primary attack form, no qualifiers at all.
Assualt (order) reads
"Affected models must run or charge. As part of a charge, after moving but BERFORE making its charge attack, an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged unless they were in melee with each other at the start of the affected model's activation. Models that recievd this order cannot make CRAs this activation...."
No limitations
No requirement that you must make a charge attack even if the target is dead.
if the Blades charge target is dead BEFORE they make the melee attack the model is not violating the rule about not being able to make both ranged and melee attacks in the same activation. How does the PAST possibility of a melee attack negate the extra attack that Blitz gives?

When you are declaring a charge (or an assault) you are declaring that you intend your action phase to be spent doing melee attacks (with a free ranged attack if you assault), even if you dont actually make that melee attack you have still decided to spend your action as a melee action (unless you have gunfighter or such).

[PG_Agamemnon]

"Affected models must run or charge. As part of a charge, after moving but before making its charge attack, an affected model can make one ranged attack targeting the model charged unless they were in melee with each other at the start of the affected model's activation. Models that recievd this order cannot make CRAs this activation...."

I know you put emphasis on "before", you need to back up a sentence. Affected models must run or charge. So now we must go look up what is a charge attack. Prime MKII Page 46, 47. After reading all this you will find that all related material defines a charge as a melee attack totally and completely.

Here is where I think we are loosing each other. Assault says that after movement but before making its charge attack. So it is creating a space where you get to make a ranged attack during a melee order. Once you go past this one instance you are in charge attack rules or melee attack rules. There are exceptions to this rule as has been mentioned, Virtuoso and Gun Fighter. Gun Fighter letting you make melee attacks with your ranged weapon and Virtuoso letting you make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation.

If you failed to make it into melee then the models activation immediately ends (Failed Charge page Prime MKII 47). If the Assault order was given you would still only get the one ranged attack on the Assault because that models activation immediately ended before it was able to make any melee attacks.

[R Gordon 1028]

First, sorry if I started this thread in the wrong location.
Second, I appreciate all the replies.
Third, I am not trying to be thick but here is my concern, If the target of the charge is dead before the melee attack occurs, but after movement such that it is not a failed charge (failed charge page 47 MkII). The range attack occurs from the first and/or second Blade or even after the first Blades charge(melee) and the target is now dead, why is the model assumed to have made a melee attack when the melee attack never occured. Had there been other melee ranged targets the Blitz (feat) would have allowed, and the rulebook demands, the extra attack must be melee. If a melee attack never occured then how can the model be in violation of the rule? There is never a mention of intent or purpose anywhere.
It seems to me that the Assualting model(s) are penalized due to premature expiration of the target?
Per Prime MKII page 49, Unless noted otherwise, (which Assualt does) a model cannot make both melee and ranged attacks in the same combat action. I cannot find anyplace where it states that if you were ever in melee range, this activation, you cannot make a range attack, just that you cannot make both, unless otherwise noted (which Assualt does).
Blitz appears to wave the ROF rule by specifically mentioning it.

[PG_Agamemnon]

When a Charge order is given you are declaring that your models will be making melee attacks that activation. Assault is a special rule that allows for a single ranged attack not during the action portion of the activation (When combat happens) but still defines the order as a Charge. It may not seem that important but it is vitally important to remember that (1) you are making a ranged attack but (2) only because of a single special rule that only applies to a specific portion of the models activation. This attack does not happen during the action portion of your turn. So it gets around the restriction of no ranged and melee attacks in the same activation. Charge attacks are melee attacks. Storm Blades do not have Gunfighter or Virtuoso or access to the rule (at this time). Engaged or not does not matter because in declaring the charge you restrict yourself to melee attacks.

It does feel that the model is penalized but it is not. You can make melee attacks at any other model in melee range if the charge target is dead. If there are not any targets in your melee range then you can;

1. Be happy that you killed the target early.
2. Plan better and spread your attacks out to more enemy models.

[Valander]

Charges do not normally allow you to make ranged attacks at all, and actually state that you must use your combat action to make a melee attack or melee special attack. Therefore, you are making melee attacks for that combat action with respect to rules such as also using ranged attacks (which you cannot do, without a special rule allowing you to make both ranged and melee attacks in the same activation).

Assault allows a special ranged attack, but only at the point the rule indicates.

[R Gordon 1028]

VALANDER, Thank you for the reply.
It appears you are with PP so you answer is great and I will assume Offical.
How does an Assualt, in which the model did not make the melee attack because the target was dead affect Blitz (feat) which allows an additional attack.
I realize that if the charging model made a melee attack they can only use the additional attack to make a melee attack. Does the fact that they COULD have made a melee attack remove the range attack from Blitz. If the answer is YES, then so be it. I am looking for clarity not trying to be dense.
THANK YOU in advance

[Valander]

Yes, I'm an Infernal (which means I do act as an "official rules answer guy" for PP). See the "Welcome to the Rules Forum" thread for more info.

If a model charged with Assault, it still charged, which means that it must use its combat action to make a melee attack, per:

It must use its action to make a combat action, choosing to make either initial melee attacks or (if it can make a special attack with a melee weapon) a melee special attack.

If the declared charge target is dead before the Assault ranged attack is made, it doesn't get to make the ranged attack (Assault only allows it against the declared charge target), but since it is legal for the model to make melee attacks at other models in its melee range in that case (see the final paragraph on p. 47 before the "Charges Outside of Activation" section) and it must choose to make melee attacks, it cannot make any other ranged attacks unless it has a rule allowing it to make both melee and ranged attacks in the same activation.

[R Gordon 1028]

VALANDER,
Thank you very much for the time you had to spend repling to me.
Yes, I was a pre-law for 2 years in college.
Sorry if I seemed denser then lead.

Hopefully, end of thread.

[Valander]

VALANDER,
Thank you very much for the time you had to spend repling to me.
Yes, I was a pre-law for 2 years in college.
Sorry if I seemed denser then lead.

Hopefully, end of thread.

No, I perfectly understand. It's important to ask for clarification rather than go forward with assumptions...