Trying to find a place for our Houseguard Riflemen

[MMMMK]

When I first started out in Warmachine the first thing I bought and painted was a box of Rifles and their UA... I have never fielded them. It has been said many times that they are a decent ranged unit in a faction with a variety of other excellent ranged options.

Is there a place for our Riflemen? Their distinguishing feature is our faction's only CRA as well as the faction's longest ranged attack outside of the Hydra or sniped Stormfall archers. With the officer, they can CRA into melee which is probably one of their best abilities. What kind of list can take advantage of this? More importantly, what kind of list would rather spend the points on a full rifle unit +UA instead of something else?

I have a hard time seeing a use for them outside of some Tiers (Ossyan) or possibly with Ravyn to CRA into a melee in which Ravyn is engaging a hard target with Vortex of Destruction up. Any thoughts?

[Mastershake]

Their distinguishing feature is our faction's only CRA as well as the faction's longest ranged attack outside...

Vics have CRA and can mini-feat for the same range. For two points more they have much better stats and abilities (base POW 12, RAT 6, Combined Arms with the UA, MAT 7, Flank, high enough ARM to shrug off most AoEs). I think this might be the problem. I rarely turn to the vics, mostly because CRA is cute, but rolling 3D6 for every individual model is better and the MHSF and SFA are still fine at infantry clearing. Then you also have the Nyss Hunters with comparable threat range, CRA and Hunter along with high DEF and credible fighting.

At the end of the day, there's too many ranged units floating around, someone is getting left behind. The MHSF is a very flexible unit that can kill casters, jacks and most infantry at range while still fighting, Vics are in the same vein, SFA are the most flexible ranged units out there able to get more range, more damage or a great continous effect on demand whil still having AoEs, then you could still take Nyss hunters who are just good (and really fun with Quicken). Somebody is going to get left behind and while CRA with RNG 14, Ranked Attacks, and a UA that lets you CRA into melee and get an extra to-hit die at close range isn't "bad" it ends up being the least flexible point investment of the lot.

[PhoenixBlaze]

The best place is behind Halberdiers!

Mastershake hit it on the head. In other factions I'm sure they'd be all kinds of awesome but we have some ridiculously good ranged units. I'm a big fan of the Invictors. They do everything. Yes, everything. I'm currently building some Halberdiers and they really make me want a unit of riflemen to go with them, having a wall of Shield Wall with guns shooting through it so I'm hoping someone posts some stellar advice or information about how they're actually an amazing ranged unit and a good way to use them over Invictors!

I suppose it's really one of those "in bigger games" things. At 50pts you'd have more to spend on what could be an effective ranged list. There should be enough points for Invics, rifles and MHSF and then some.

As it stands, a way I could see would be a mini wall. Take min of both Houseguard units and pair them up, maybe hiding your caster behind them. It's sort of brick like but it could work well.

[Rampaging Elk]

The best way I can think of to use them is by having them move behind Halberdiers, then CRA within 8 inches of the target for the additional damage die. I'd like to try them with Ossyan for a 4 dice CRA into melee. However, Riflemen have a lower RAT and POW, so it requires larger CRAs in order to hit and damage as well as Invictors. And really, if they are CRAing into melee, it means they need an even larger CRA to hit since the target still gets the target in melee bonus. Also, Invictors have a better POW by 2, so the additional damage die isn't quite as powerful as it may initially seem.

So yeah, the best reason I can think of to take the Riflemen over the Invictors is for the additional damage die when you shoot within 8 inches and CRAing into melee, but those bonuses don't necessarily pay back.

[Derikari]

Their minifeat does not improve their damage. The only way they can roll 4 dice is hitting under Ravyn's feat.

[Prof-Chaos]

Their minifeat does not improve their damage. The only way they can roll 4 dice is hitting under Ravyn's feat.

*Rereads Riflemen UA entry*

Well... For whatever reason I was under the impression that they got an additional damage die from their minifeat as well. Now I have even less incentive to pick these guys up :P

[Rampaging Elk]

Their minifeat does not improve their damage. The only way they can roll 4 dice is hitting under Ravyn's feat.

You are indeed correct. Shows you how often I've played them. I guess that helps counter the target in melee penalty, but still, I'd much rather just have Invictors. Better RAT and rerolls on missed CRAs with higher POW.

[Tainted Coil]

I've been thinking they might make a decent flanking unit with the SR2012 reinforcement rule. You can get the whole unit+UA in under 10pts so they would fit for 50pt games. They get a 3" deployment and can then move so they have a sizeable threat range to shoot at things, and a pretty decent range to walk right into min-feat range for the boosted hits.

It would also be kinda cool to bring them on in turn 3 or 4 when things get tied down in melee. A nice flanking unit that can then immediately CRA into melee and free up your units could be a nasty surprise.

Still, for what it is Nyss are probably a better overall choice as they can function more independantly and have longer threat ranges.

[Mastershake]

Their minifeat does not improve their damage. The only way they can roll 4 dice is hitting under Ravyn's feat.

Indeed, if I had a quarter every time I've heard this misread of HGR...I could buy lunch, but considering how few Ret players there are that's a not inconsiderable number. It seems like it was intended to wait till the enemy crash into Halberdiers, then the HGR behind them, mini-feat, aim and CRA by twos giving you RAT 9 with 3D6 to hit, but in practice this rarely happens.

[Murkhadh]

The best use I've found for them so far is as a reinforcement but Nyss will probably end up being better at that.

[Tucker]

I find they're one of those units that gets more useful at high point values, say 50 points and up. At that point level an army can start tripping over itself and it can be a challenge to get all of your units lined up to attack and in support rage of the caster and each other.

The Riflemen get around this with their long range and ranked attacks - you can squeeze them pretty much anywhere and still get a bead on the bad guys. Furthermore, they can be safe hanging out on the flank, using their range to contribute to the fight and relying on other units to act as a shield to keep the bad guys at arm's length. If there is a unit of Halberdiers around this is even easier to pull off.

They're cheap enough and flexible enough to be an excellent support unit. At smaller point values you don't want 10 points for a support unit - everyone has to fight. But at 50 points a 10 point support unit, that you don't have to worry about and will take care of itself, is an asset, not a detriment.

[Niwatori]

A min unit of HGH (no UA) backed by a min unit of HGR (no UA) can offer some serious positional advantage for very little points. In essence, your opponent has two options: try to get rid of them or ignore them.

Getting rid of them can be a pain because of the commitment it takes in terms of attacks-- twelve targets means he'll have to make at least twelve ranged attacks, or refocus (and, frankly, waste) a bunch of AoE shots that could be used on other, more threatening units like MHSFs. Usually, he'll just ignore the HGHs and HGRs in favor of models perceived of as more threatening (MHSFs, 'jacks, etc.), especially if the HGH/HGR models are not in a place of strategic importance. Which means you get to perpetuate your positional advantage while taking six POW 10 shots a turn for "free" and ideally setting up a Brutal Charge.

Ignoring them becomes less viable if you put them in a main corridor that he needs to advance his melee units or draw a LoS. Six HGHs can cover a fair amount of board--slightly less if you pair/triple them with SW--and the HGR behind them provide a second rank that he needs to get through before the corridor becomes open. You can take your shots with the HGR during this time (remember Ranked Attacks) as well as any other units behind the HGH/HGR mass (also Ranked Attacks). You can try to set up a Brutal counter-charge with the HGH, but frankly once the mass becomes engaged they'll likely get obliterated after a couple turns. But keep in mind that with the resources your opponent has tied up in getting rid of them, you can be using other units to thin out the ranks (MHSF or Destors from the flanks, for instance) or setting up an assassination/blitz from another point in the board.

So, for about the cost of a single heavy myrmidon, you can seriously mess up your opponent's plans and occupy quite a lot of terrain for at least a couple turns. I wouldn't recommend using UAs for this purpose (especially if you have other HGH/HGR units, as the UA allowances are 1). In a 35 pt game for instance, this strategy can be super useful as you'll still have 24pts + 'jack points to spend on heavy hitters.

[CeltKhan]

The Halb/Rifle combo is solid, but you have to build around it. If you take min units, you're not going to get much out of them. Maxed with UAs, you have a 10+ inch Shield Wall marching 9 inches a turn that presents nothing but bad options. If they shoot it, they're going to "waste" high POW shots or CRAs to take out individual troopers. If they charge, they're facing DEF 15 troops who are going to have fire support Right There. And if they let you charge, you can hit them at MAT 8, POW 14, then Reform out of combat so the rifles can march up and shoot them.

That's independent of your warcaster, mind. Rifles definitely work best with Ravyn, and I know all Ravyn players are obsessed with their Invictors and Strikeforces. On the other hand, Garryth can Apparition the Halbs up the field, Ozzy Quickens them and allows them to do more damage. I wouldn't bother with Rahn; he does nothing for them.

That said, the whole package is over half of a 35 point list. If you want to use Houseguard, you're going to be building around them, not adding them to your list.

[Murkhadh]

Talk about necro!

[CeltKhan]

Not my fault!

[Gho5t]

But really, the Riflemen DO have a place...
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...ON THE BENCH!

[Murkhadh]

But really, the Riflemen DO have a place...
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...ON THE BENCH!

Mine are sitting on a shelf, their space in my bag is being occupied by nyss hunters now

[DesertSpiral]

I saw this and thought that the most obvious advantage of the house guard rifles is being left out, or not even mentioned. The sergeant and the officer are possibly the coolest looking mini's in the entire Ret range!

All that aside, i have been using them recently and whilst i wouldn't say they are for everyone the best way i have found them to work is in a tiered Rahn list. The purpose they provide their is to complete the trinity of threat types, so you have magic, melee and ranged. That way you cannot be effectively shut down by spot counters. I'm not going to say it's the best way to play or build and requires doing things possibly harder than might be necessary but it does mean that you force choices like passage or the anti magic choice and it does give you a nice long ranged scalpel.

The list i have them in is this:

Rahn
Phoenix
Phoenix

2 Arcanists
3 Magisters
2 HSBM
max rifles +ua
max halbs + ua

with a daemon and arcanist as reserves.

I know a lot of people w/don't like it - the strength though is that your mages all get advance move and that can get you into a very aggressive position early and with the amount of kd and push/pull it makes the rifles a good backed up block of shooting to take advantage of the front line halbs and mages.

Anyway, like i said its not for everybody, i have found it to be reasonably effective in most every situation though - which is kind of Rets schtick, not always the best but always able to conmpete.

[Chip]

I saw this and thought that the most obvious advantage of the house guard rifles is being left out, or not even mentioned. The sergeant and the officer are possibly the coolest looking mini's in the entire Ret range!

It's why I love 'em!

I use them as a second wave of an attack - the 'jacks go in first, kill as much stuff as they can and do as much damage as possible to the enemy heavy hitters. The riflemen then walk up behind and CRA the surviving enemy 'jacks/beasts to finish them off. I'm going to play around with using Halberdiers instead of 'jacks, but that's pretty much just changing a winning formula...

[Kallas]

It's why I love 'em!

I use them as a second wave of an attack - the 'jacks go in first, kill as much stuff as they can and do as much damage as possible to the enemy heavy hitters. The riflemen then walk up behind and CRA the surviving enemy 'jacks/beasts to finish them off. I'm going to play around with using Halberdiers instead of 'jacks, but that's pretty much just changing a winning formula...

To play devil's advocate, but what makes Riflemen the best choice for this role? They're not exactly the most damaging option, nor the most accurate, nor the most flexible should the plan go awry.

So, what makes the Riflemen the choice for this role over Invictors or Stormfalls?

[Chip]

To play devil's advocate, but what makes Riflemen the best choice for this role? They're not exactly the most damaging option, nor the most accurate, nor the most flexible should the plan go awry.

So, what makes the Riflemen the choice for this role over Invictors or Stormfalls?

...The Invictors and Stormfalls can CRA into melee now? Damn, the Riflemen Officer REALLY wasted ink on his card with that rule...

EDIT - Better qualify this statement. You see, Ret 'jacks, as much as I love them, can't scrap enemy heavy 'jacks with their ranged attacks alone. I personally (your findings may be different but... Meh.) find that, in my general experience, they do more damage in melee. By the time you hit melee, even Invictors won't be reliably hitting in melee, and those that miss have a distinct chance of shooting their own 'jack in the back. A full CRA from a foot or so away will usually drop what's left, AND not put bodies in the front line, bunging everything up.

[Fathoym]

I've used them in Rahn tiers too. Help counter the stone cold matchups you might be risking otherwise. Outside of tiers though I don't think I'd use them often at all.

I've said it before, and likely will again. I think they would be a very credible option if they released a buffing solo that gave them arcane precision or something along those lines. Suddenly you're going to find yourself asking whether you want to ignore everything except stealth, or have a perfect counter to high def stealth units.

[hausdorff space]

I've said it before, and likely will again. I think they would be a very credible option if they released a buffing solo that gave them arcane precision or something along those lines. Suddenly you're going to find yourself asking whether you want to ignore everything except stealth, or have a perfect counter to high def stealth units.

Just wait for the Houseguard Character Solo...

The only distinctly superior thing about Riflemen is that they can shoot through one another. But it's such a terribly corner-case ability.




EDIT: I don't know the new colossal rules, etc. But do you suppose there might potentially be some growing merit in them as armour-breakers being able to CRA at big targets (in melee) from 14 inches away??

[Kallas]

...The Invictors and Stormfalls can CRA into melee now? Damn, the Riflemen Officer REALLY wasted ink on his card with that rule...

EDIT - Better qualify this statement. You see, Ret 'jacks, as much as I love them, can't scrap enemy heavy 'jacks with their ranged attacks alone. I personally (your findings may be different but... Meh.) find that, in my general experience, they do more damage in melee. By the time you hit melee, even Invictors won't be reliably hitting in melee, and those that miss have a distinct chance of shooting their own 'jack in the back. A full CRA from a foot or so away will usually drop what's left, AND not put bodies in the front line, bunging everything up.

I didn't realise that this preliminary damage was done after engagement. But we could have a pissing match all day.

Riflemen, pre-engagement, output significantly less damage than Invictors at a comparable range with less accuracy/reliability.
Post-engagement, the Riflemen can CRA into melee, vs non-CRA's (2-man would be RAT 3 vs RAT 2 from an individual Invictor at the same POW)

Range-wise, Invictors have marginally shorter, due to lower SPD, but are less susceptible to incoming fire (and since both have very close threat range, I think it's fair to call this equivilent)

The time you want that damage on the enemy heavy/target/bagel is before your jack goes in so that your jack will scrap it when it reaches melee. Riflemen do allow the 'flexibility' of jack-goes-in-then-Riflemen-attempt-coup-de-grace, however this appears needlessly oblique: why would we risk losing our heavy (if the destruction of the target is not likely) when by reversing the order of operation (which is more than plausible because of the inherent advantage of ranged weapons) we can more reasonably assure the two important goals: the destruction of the target; and the safety of our piece.

So, why are Riflemen better suited to supporting our jacks, when we are looking to output damage prior to engagement anyway (since this seems to be the most sensible course of action.)

I can understand the value of the Riflemen's ability to assist in the course of absorbing the first strike (that is; if we get hit in melee first, they immediately become more important, this is very true and not negligible by any means) however reaction is, by and large, less favourable for Retribution than proaction is, we simply do not have similar resources to force an attrition game (eg, Khador warjacks are immensely tough, and whilst Retribution warjacks are in the middle of the pack, we have very few ways to increase our attrition game.) So, if proaction - that is, performing the alpha strike is preferable to being struck - is better, how are Riflemen better than Stormfalls or Invictors?

I'm actually warming to the idea of minimum Riflemen (+UA) in support, but the problem I find is that I don't have those 7pts to spare for a reactive unit when I'm purchasing models to perform proactively.

I hope this makes sense... Like I said, devil's advocate; Riflemen (with UA) have a very small niche (the ability to CRA into melee) and a singular purpose in a faction that thrives on flexibility and versatile models. Blah, rambling.

[5-Cents]

As an owner of 2 units of rifleman (Ossy tier) I hate to point out that Colossals can be cra'd at all times, even in melee.

[Jestor]

Thier advantage is the points cost. Plain and simple. Invictors are a better unit. 2 points. We have lots of 2 point options. If your plan for your invictors is to sit back and shoot stuff because you have a lot of other melee elements, then taking the Rifles and the other 2 point model you want to take is better.

All that being said, I just checked my notes and I haven't fielded them in the last 20 games I played with Ret and, overall, they have made 7% of my lists.

They have a use, it's niche.

[Murkhadh]

Just wait for the Houseguard Character Solo...

The only distinctly superior thing about Riflemen is that they can shoot through one another. But it's such a terribly corner-case ability.




EDIT: I don't know the new colossal rules, etc. But do you suppose there might potentially be some growing merit in them as armour-breakers being able to CRA at big targets (in melee) from 14 inches away??

No, you can CRA colossals who are in melee regardless of who you are.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

No, you can CRA colossals who are in melee regardless of who you are.

Are you sure about that? Colossals never receive the target in melee DEF bonus, but they are still in melee. I don't remember reading anything allowing CRAs. I could be wrong though. Still no book.

[currentlyunknown]

Yes, they can be CRA'd in melee. It's in the colossals rules in the book.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Good to know.

[Etheric]

Okay, so this hasn't been brought up yet, but why are they in back behind somebody like halberdiers? HGR have ranked attacks, which means they can shoot through each other, but it also means you can shoot through them. Unless you have a third rank of ranged units (such as HGRT, another maligned unit), it seems like that rule is mostly wasted. But if you have them in the front of your army, their range should put out a lot of threat. And if you get a chance to position them so they fall behind a charging unit after the initial volley, that's cool... but if they should perhaps fall victim to the initial charge... *shrug* so what?

I'm picturing them protecting the advance of some dawnguard. Vics can shoot through them if someone charges and kills the first couple of them. Sentinels can charge (or vengeance) and melee over their heads if any of the riflemen survive a charge. Not saying you need both dawnguard behind them, it is just that everyone is seeing them as a second rank unit and nobody seems to be considering putting them up front. (too much Empire: Total War from me probably. Riflemen up front, pikemen/cavalry behind or on flanks in order to intercept charges or coutercharge)

[Rogue Sun]

Okay, so this hasn't been brought up yet, but why are they in back behind somebody like halberdiers? HGR have ranked attacks, which means they can shoot through each other, but it also means you can shoot through them. Unless you have a third rank of ranged units (such as HGRT, another maligned unit), it seems like that rule is mostly wasted. But if you have them in the front of your army, their range should put out a lot of threat. And if you get a chance to position them so they fall behind a charging unit after the initial volley, that's cool... but if they should perhaps fall victim to the initial charge... *shrug* so what?

I'm picturing them protecting the advance of some dawnguard. Vics can shoot through them if someone charges and kills the first couple of them. Sentinels can charge (or vengeance) and melee over their heads if any of the riflemen survive a charge. Not saying you need both dawnguard behind them, it is just that everyone is seeing them as a second rank unit and nobody seems to be considering putting them up front. (too much Empire: Total War from me probably. Riflemen up front, pikemen/cavalry behind or on flanks in order to intercept charges or coutercharge)

Yeah...here's the problem with that theory: one or 2 models with reach that runs to engage just decommissioned 10 points of your army. And assuming they're placed well it's likely you can't even get a model around to clear them off without activating your riflemen and moving them around to open holes. THEN you need another unit or solo to kill the model engaging them, which means your opponent has spent very little effort or points to neuter 10-20 points of your army for a turn. Doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

[hausdorff space]

Yeah...here's the problem with that theory: one or 2 models with reach that runs to engage just decommissioned 10 points of your army. And assuming they're placed well it's likely you can't even get a model around to clear them off without activating your riflemen and moving them around to open holes. THEN you need another unit or solo to kill the model engaging them, which means your opponent has spent very little effort or points to neuter 10-20 points of your army for a turn. Doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

Not really, that's why they have the UA and mini-feat, to clear out the jammers.

The real issue is that it's a lot of points for a large unit of attacks that are generally much better being made by another unit that wouldn't be getting in the way of everything.

[Demeritus]

HGR are a good unit in an army where they have very stiff competition and seem to lose out because of it. I do hope that we get a houseguard solo (like how one was mentioned in the Vyros Nq tier) that acts like a houseguard version of Joe.

[Rogue Sun]

Not really, that's why they have the UA and mini-feat, to clear out the jammers.

The real issue is that it's a lot of points for a large unit of attacks that are generally much better being made by another unit that wouldn't be getting in the way of everything.

How exactly is the UA and mini feat going to assist them? If the unit is being engaged they can't CRA into melee as they don't have gunfighter.

[Hjiryon]

HGR are a good unit in an army where they have very stiff competition and seem to lose out because of it. I do hope that we get a houseguard solo (like how one was mentioned in the Vyros Nq tier) that acts like a houseguard version of Joe.

The problem here being, of course, that this solo could easily just be a device to make halberdiers even more awesome than they were in the first place.

[hausdorff space]

How exactly is the UA and mini feat going to assist them? If the unit is being engaged they can't CRA into melee as they don't have gunfighter.

If the entire unit is engaged, then your positioning sucks; and you don't deserve to get any use out of them.

[Mastershake]

If the entire unit is engaged, then your positioning sucks; and you don't deserve to get any use out of them.

You see this is what happens with Necromancy, you raise a few dead relatives the discussion gets heated and it goes squirly from there.

[Rogue Sun]

If the entire unit is engaged, then your positioning sucks; and you don't deserve to get any use out of them.

OR...or, stay with me now, your DEF 13, ARM 13 troops aren't hard to punch holes in and get a few models into. Obviously I'm wrong though and they should be used in every list as front line troops.

Obviously.

[Chip]

Riflemen, pre-engagement, output significantly less damage than Invictors at a comparable range with less accuracy/reliability.
Post-engagement, the Riflemen can CRA into melee, vs non-CRA's (2-man would be RAT 3 vs RAT 2 from an individual Invictor at the same POW)

OK, I don't really care about the rest of your post - you clearly play Ret differently to me, so our findings are bound to be different - go in peace, and never use Houseguard Riflemen again. I DO have to take issue with the quoted statement, however.

As much as this forum may like to bleat on that Ret 'jacks can't kill anything, they actually hit quite hard (put the spreadsheets away, I'm talking about real life here) and will happily maul most infantry - the Phoenix will take out every single wound infantry within 2" every turn AND put an impressive dent in most 'jacks. Sometimes in the same turn if it's pumped up on Focus and has an Arcanist using Concentrated Power on it. This means that we're looking at Multi-wound infantry that can take a POW 12 hit (which is usually pretty tough) or 'jacks (which are usually quite tough).

Why in Scyrah's name would I be using two man CRAs on these things? I would be using 5/11 man CRAs to guarantee the kill, and I CERTAINLY wouldn't be pouring in a full unit of Invictor's firepower into a melee where I'll be just as likely to shoot my own 'jack (more likely in anything except Khador - a Cygnaran Heavy will be DEF 16, but you'll be backstriking your own Phoenix, making it DEF 14...)!