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  1. #1
    Conqueror
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    Default Lugging Stuff Around in IK? (What do we use to carry all our stuff)

    Folks,

    I was hoping to get some suggestions on what people do in their IK games on carrying stuff around. Currently our group (which just so happen to be composed of low-str PC, except the Trollkin) is running around with Medium loads just with basic arms and armor and a few get push to Heavy loads if you account for a basic adventure kit (backpack, bedroll, food, lantern, rope). Seeing how none of the standard 3.5 encumberance friendly items exist (bag of holding, harvest sack, floating disc, secret chest), I am at a loss of what our party is to due aside from getting a bunch of horses. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Destroyer of Worlds Whimper's Avatar
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    Might I suggest a stronghold of some sort, so you don't have to bring everything you've ever owned along with you on each adventure? Another popular item, and cheaper, is a framed backpack which helps characters to manage larger loads without as severe penalties. Check the Liber Mechanika for details.
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    Get a mule.
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  4. #4
    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    Bizzare idea: Drop your backpack. When something nasty attacks, you shuck off your backpack and pull out your sword. After combat, pick up backpack again...

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
    then it's about time we got our WARMARMOTS.
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    Or ignore that crappy encumbrance rule. Really, that **** only works to give you headaches.


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    Destroyer of Worlds The Happy Anarchist's Avatar
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    Owning a house, or renting an apartment, loft or room in an inn. IK is a game that works great when centered around a city and having the players actually living in it, rather than wandering around like murderous hobos. Not that wandering around like murderous hobos isn't a fun thing too.
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  7. #7
    Destroyer of Worlds drachenfels's Avatar
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    find random cheap labor jack (aslong as it works)- attach hundreds of bags to it - problems solved

    or just hire more big things.. an ogrun bokur paid a bit extra can carry everything you need.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwe View Post
    Get a mule.
    Make sure to remove the mace so it can hold stuff and still attack.
    Throwing scrap thralls. It's pointless, but it's fun.

  9. #9

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    A wagon often comes in very handy.
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  10. #10
    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    I gotta half-ton suit of steam armor and a bunch of mek's tools to hump around. You bet I've got a wagon- it's where my character eats and sleeps, too.
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  11. #11
    Destroyer of Worlds Sosthenes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJaeger View Post
    Or ignore that crappy encumbrance rule. Really, that **** only works to give you headaches.
    I strongly disagree. Micromanaging every little item is often superfluous, but if we're talking about a typical adventuring party, the amount of stuff carried does matter and serves to provide a certain minimal level of verisimilitude and attention to logistics. You're quick in video game territory here. (Sure, if that's what you're going for, whatever floats your boat...)

    First thing I'd do is totally disregard the advice of the designers about the 3.0 weapon weights. Even they're probably a bit over the top, and if you want larger-than-life equipment, you'd better have larger-than-life adventurers, too (sth. like 30+ point buy).

    Then either find a way to reduce the load (better/lighter equipment, more improvisation), or get more muscle. Pack carrying henchmen go back to the earliest D&D incarnations, and if it's mostly about overland travel and equipment needed for wilderness survival, beasts of burden are a good investment.

    If you've got stuff, you should have means to buy proper conveyances. Yeah, I know, adventurers often tend to be rather cheap.

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    Destroyer of Worlds drachenfels's Avatar
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    get a piece of cheap @$$
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosthenes View Post
    I strongly disagree. Micromanaging every little item is often superfluous, but if we're talking about a typical adventuring party, the amount of stuff carried does matter and serves to provide a certain minimal level of verisimilitude and attention to logistics. You're quick in video game territory here. (Sure, if that's what you're going for, whatever floats your boat...)

    First thing I'd do is totally disregard the advice of the designers about the 3.0 weapon weights. Even they're probably a bit over the top, and if you want larger-than-life equipment, you'd better have larger-than-life adventurers, too (sth. like 30+ point buy).

    Then either find a way to reduce the load (better/lighter equipment, more improvisation), or get more muscle. Pack carrying henchmen go back to the earliest D&D incarnations, and if it's mostly about overland travel and equipment needed for wilderness survival, beasts of burden are a good investment.

    If you've got stuff, you should have means to buy proper conveyances. Yeah, I know, adventurers often tend to be rather cheap.
    So your suggestion is to overhaul the entire equipment weight list or to give an enormous amount of attribute points instead of ignoring that encumbrance crap? That is exactly the headache I was talking about. If you want the players to write down every peace of equipment they have, you can make them do that. I don't let them have anything they didn't bought or write. Just ignore that insane encumbrance rule and ridiculous weights.

    (Really. The 1 kg soap bar weights HALF a kg? Seriously, D&D people? Seriously? I still hope that was a translation problem...)


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  14. #14
    Destroyer of Worlds Sosthenes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJaeger View Post
    So your suggestion is to overhaul the entire equipment weight list or to give an enormous amount of attribute points instead of ignoring that encumbrance crap?
    Huh? I was talking about the ridiculous weights of some D&D equipment, especially in the Iron Kingdoms. Mixing realistic attributes with unrealistic weights just isn't balanced. Arms & armor weights are usually half the encumbrance trouble, the other half seems to be loot - although the OP might be one of those rare cases where the hiking kit seems to be the problem.

    I usually don't micromanage equipment, i.e. I mostly count the heavy stuff or do a more elaborate tally if there's lots of small stuff (like archers carrying arrows by the hundreds). The calculation shouldn't be annoying to the players, the restriction of overencumbrance should be. In my experience, campaigns where this type of logistics doesn't matter in-game usually don't have those problems in the first place.

  15. #15
    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosthenes View Post
    I strongly disagree. Micromanaging every little item is often superfluous, but if we're talking about a typical adventuring party, the amount of stuff carried does matter and serves to provide a certain minimal level of verisimilitude and attention to logistics. You're quick in video game territory here. (Sure, if that's what you're going for, whatever floats your boat...)

    First thing I'd do is totally disregard the advice of the designers about the 3.0 weapon weights. Even they're probably a bit over the top, and if you want larger-than-life equipment, you'd better have larger-than-life adventurers, too (sth. like 30+ point buy).

    Then either find a way to reduce the load (better/lighter equipment, more improvisation), or get more muscle. Pack carrying henchmen go back to the earliest D&D incarnations, and if it's mostly about overland travel and equipment needed for wilderness survival, beasts of burden are a good investment.

    If you've got stuff, you should have means to buy proper conveyances. Yeah, I know, adventurers often tend to be rather cheap.
    I gotta agree. Ever read a military journal? Soldiers know the weight of every bit of kit they are humping through hell, down the the last ounce. I remember this one Vietnam story where the first chapter was the guy going over his kit. Shoes 3 pounds, 2 oz. 6 K-rations, 1 pound each. M-16, 12 pounds...

    Ignoring the encumbrance rule just leads to different headaches. Equipment lists six pages long. People buying and keeping obscure junk around 'just in case'. All just to avoid some 3rd grade math...

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
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    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosthenes View Post
    I usually don't micromanage equipment, i.e. I mostly count the heavy stuff or do a more elaborate tally if there's lots of small stuff (like archers carrying arrows by the hundreds). The calculation shouldn't be annoying to the players, the restriction of overencumbrance should be. In my experience, campaigns where this type of logistics doesn't matter in-game usually don't have those problems in the first place.
    This isn't a bad idea. Honestly, what gets me is how often players 'stack' things unrealistically. "Oh, so you are wearing a backpack, quiver and bow, longsword, and your cloak... OVER your armor? That's like three feet behind you!"

    Some sort of slot/box system might work. You can hold up to four 'boxes' of equipment on your back (about the size of a backpack). Another 2-3 on your belt...

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
    then it's about time we got our WARMARMOTS.
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  17. #17
    Destroyer of Worlds Sosthenes's Avatar
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    Yes, quite often bulk seems to be a more unrealistic problem, even before weight. Or as I like to call it "Monkey Island Pants Syndrome". Ehlonna's quiver is often even better than bags of holding, as it stores a large array of high builk items (staffs, spears, bundles of arrows) quite neatly.

    Some other games did interesting things for encumbrance: RuneQuest (III, maybe even II) had a "bulk" rating that didn't exactly correlate with weight, thus both taking care of some larger items and making the "realistic weight" issue basically a moot point. HackMaster had an "encumbrance audit" where you lost some XP if the DM "called your bluff" and you went over your limit (well, it's not an entirely serious game…). The recent "old school" retroclone "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" has a pretty simple check-list thing (add one for chain, two for plate, one if you're over 6/11/16/21 items total, plus one for every item on the list that counts as oversized). The old Swordbearer game (I'm showing my age here) had a limit of 10 "items" total. Talislanta had a similar limit of 7 magical items, which was due to some in-game magical theory…

    I'm not too keen on keeping exact tabs on every single gram. Lots of small matter packs up pretty nicely anyway. Keep a rough tab of how you look and what you could carry beyond your basic equipment (arms and armor, mostly), if you've got large, hard or bulky backpacks, drop them prior to combat (even empty wooden frames don't mesh much with swashbuckling and dodging) and most of the time the problem doesn't even arise. That's my favorite solution: avoiding the problem of counting bits in the first place. It does get a bit easier if you're not too keen on squares and exact movement and placement rules, as thus a lot of penalties that aren't quite there vanish into rounding errors.

    If that's the general playstyle, encumbrance rules aren't an issue so you're effectively playing without them, without completely disregarding the actual fact that carrying stuff is a bother.

    Overland travel and its movements rates is a different issues, but to be honest, I haven't found a system at all that I liked, as there are so many other factors. In the end, whether there's a bit more or less of underbrush you're moving through or whether the road is just a few ruts or of modern (or Roman) quality matters more (but is often disregarded by the rules) than whether your base movement rate is 30 or 20 feet per round. Never mind that there's a gradual slope towards a forced march, the sustainability of long marches on trail rations, fragile horses etc.
    So in the end, I often make a rough guess, adjust by die roll (used to have some tables, but not anymore) and go with that. For the few times where it matters, quite often enough the players are content with "you arrive in city XYZ after four weeks of travel and some dire need for some R&R". For the few times where it matters, player strategies for more efficient travel and counting encumbrance is actually interesting, as often it's a battle with resources and/or time that's as important to the plot as an encounter with a few mangy orcs. Haven't had that a lot in the IK, but for more low-magic, sandbox-y sword & sorcery settings it turned up quite often.

    TL;DR - I'm not into accounting either, most of the times encumbrance isn't a big issue in the first place

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    Warrior ozvelpoon's Avatar
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    In my experience bulk is more of a problem for adventurers than weight, because when was the last time the rogues 10f pole even fit into a room?

    The carry capacities are rather good for tracking the big stuff and I always insist on a good count for your combat statistics (ie. what my players realisticaly want to cary in a combat encounter) because some characters will go over simply by wearing armor and carrying a weapon (I'm looking at you Cleric). The mundane equipment for general travel is relatively unimportant to me save for the extremely outlandish cases.

    My best story is my last group:
    1st lvl. they knew they were going to have some problems down the road for encumbrance as they had a Bodger and a Cleric of Cirus who was going to be doing crafting. They all pooled their gold and bought a covered wagon and a horse to pull it than handed it all to the Bodger and said "have fun". Suffice it to say they pulled out of that first town with a mobile bunk house/workshop and never complained about encumbrance again. They continued to upgrade as they went and it turned into one of their best investments as a group (FYI carts used as melee weapons do 5d6 according to the DMG...).

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    Conqueror
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    Thanks for the replies. It looks like wagons / beast of burden to carry our stuff. Now just have to proof it against thieves.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    I mentioned the steam armor my character has in his? That tends to work. That and his mechanikal guard hounds.
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    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychomancer View Post
    I mentioned the steam armor my character has in his? That tends to work. That and his mechanikal guard hounds.
    ...where does he carry the 4 tons of coal needed to keep that thing running?

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
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    Warrior ozvelpoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nub5 View Post
    Thanks for the replies. It looks like wagons / beast of burden to carry our stuff. Now just have to proof it against thieves.
    Enter witty PC`s who try and thief proof a donkey...

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    Destroyer of Worlds Sosthenes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozvelpoon View Post
    Enter witty PC`s who try and thief proof a donkey...
    I'll spare you the "hidden storage space"/PITA jokes.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StJason View Post
    ...where does he carry the 4 tons of coal needed to keep that thing running?
    Actually I've found that I only need a couple hundred pounds on hand at any time, so there's plenty of room in the wagon.
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    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychomancer View Post
    Actually I've found that I only need a couple hundred pounds on hand at any time, so there's plenty of room in the wagon.
    ...to haul stuff around? Even just walking the hundred miles to the next town would burn right through that couple hundred pounds pretty quick.

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
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    Destroyer of Worlds The Happy Anarchist's Avatar
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    In the IK games I played with them, we didn't really walk hundreds of miles to the next time, at least not outside of a supply train. You can generally hire a coach, wagon or boat to go most places. Or at least ride.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StJason View Post
    ...to haul stuff around? Even just walking the hundred miles to the next town would burn right through that couple hundred pounds pretty quick.
    My character doesn't wear his steam armor all the time. And certainly not to pull the wagon, who would take that seriously? Behold, the mighty Ironhead mercenary, tromping along at thirty feet every six seconds, hitched to his own wagon! I've got some of those big Khadoran draft horses to pull the wagon, and they don't eat coal. If we ever head out into the Bloodstones, I may find myself in a pinch since I can't supplement the fodder with local plant life, but so far it's been the green hills of Cygnar and Llael in springtime, so animal feed hasn't been a problem.
    Trollkin feed is another story.
    Corruption's a lot of fun, are you sure you don't want to try it?

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    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychomancer View Post
    My character doesn't wear his steam armor all the time. And certainly not to pull the wagon, who would take that seriously? Behold, the mighty Ironhead mercenary, tromping along at thirty feet every six seconds, hitched to his own wagon! I've got some of those big Khadoran draft horses to pull the wagon, and they don't eat coal. If we ever head out into the Bloodstones, I may find myself in a pinch since I can't supplement the fodder with local plant life, but so far it's been the green hills of Cygnar and Llael in springtime, so animal feed hasn't been a problem.
    Trollkin feed is another story.
    ...I'm sorry, I thought that is what you meant when you started talking about steam armor and hauling stuff around. Mea culpa.

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
    then it's about time we got our WARMARMOTS.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    Ah, you're good. I had a good laugh about it.
    Corruption's a lot of fun, are you sure you don't want to try it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drachenfels View Post
    get a piece of cheap @$$
    And don't forget to name him Elmer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlordtheft View Post
    And don't forget to name him Elmer.
    Kids these days... sheesh! His proper name should be "Number Seven"!

    Sorry, if riding deer, tigers, bears and wolves is not silly,
    then it's about time we got our WARMARMOTS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StJason View Post
    I gotta agree. Ever read a military journal? Soldiers know the weight of every bit of kit they are humping through hell, down the the last ounce. I remember this one Vietnam story where the first chapter was the guy going over his kit. Shoes 3 pounds, 2 oz. 6 K-rations, 1 pound each. M-16, 12 pounds...
    The M-16 A2 riffle weighs just shy of 8 lbs dry. As a Marine, you become intimately familiar with 8 lbs as you hold your riffle out in front of you as drill instructors berrate you for some form of lack of discipline. What is pain after all, but weakness leaving the body.

    But yeah, when field packing, you know pretty damn close how much every thing weighs, especially when you're a machine gunner and you're carring an extra 70 lbs in barrels and ammo. And you have quick release straps on your pack. No way you're assaulting with 1/2+ your body weight strapped to your back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychomancer View Post
    My character doesn't wear his steam armor all the time. And certainly not to pull the wagon, who would take that seriously? Behold, the mighty Ironhead mercenary, tromping along at thirty feet every six seconds, hitched to his own wagon! I've got some of those big Khadoran draft horses to pull the wagon, and they don't eat coal. If we ever head out into the Bloodstones, I may find myself in a pinch since I can't supplement the fodder with local plant life, but so far it's been the green hills of Cygnar and Llael in springtime, so animal feed hasn't been a problem.
    Trollkin feed is another story.
    Those big draft horses can only manage 3.5 miles per hour according to the SRD, which is only slightly faster than your steam armor's 3.4. In one day of pulling a load, a horse like that eats 25 quarts of whole grains (which is 1 to 1.7 pounds depending on the kind of grain and the moisture content) and 50-60 pounds of hay. You're only able to supplement the hay portion of that with green shoots in spring (and probably only a minor fraction of that because the horse doesn't have all day to graze). You might actually get better miles/pound of fuel in your steam armor.
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    Destroyer of Worlds Sosthenes's Avatar
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    Ooh, trade wars between steamos and teamsters…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwe View Post
    Those big draft horses can only manage 3.5 miles per hour according to the SRD, which is only slightly faster than your steam armor's 3.4. In one day of pulling a load, a horse like that eats 25 quarts of whole grains (which is 1 to 1.7 pounds depending on the kind of grain and the moisture content) and 50-60 pounds of hay. You're only able to supplement the hay portion of that with green shoots in spring (and probably only a minor fraction of that because the horse doesn't have all day to graze). You might actually get better miles/pound of fuel in your steam armor.
    Had to check with the wife on this. She raised, trained, and drove a 18.2 hand tall belgian draft horse. In winter (no grass), with light work he could chew through a 40lbs hay bale no problem. Grain was way less. I think your calculation is off a bit, 1 quart of oats is roughly 1 lbs. Her big draft didn't eat all that much grain. Just a handful here or there as a treat. A heavily worked horse would eat more, but 25 quarts of grain would be the recommendation for the Arnold Schwartzeneger of horses, on roids, with a 20 hour a a day work out schedule.

    She also had a 30+ year old broken down hag, with no teeth and a digestive track like a paper towel tube. That horse could poop out 20+ quarts of pellets a day. With no teeth, at that age, hay just doesn't do much for them. Grass works in the summer, but in the middle of winter, the only way to keep the weight on is with grain/alfalfa pellets.

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    Destroyer of Worlds Psychomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwe View Post
    Those big draft horses can only manage 3.5 miles per hour according to the SRD, which is only slightly faster than your steam armor's 3.4. In one day of pulling a load, a horse like that eats 25 quarts of whole grains (which is 1 to 1.7 pounds depending on the kind of grain and the moisture content) and 50-60 pounds of hay. You're only able to supplement the hay portion of that with green shoots in spring (and probably only a minor fraction of that because the horse doesn't have all day to graze). You might actually get better miles/pound of fuel in your steam armor.
    Aye, and arrive on contract with no fuel. I can feel Col. Hammer's disapproval from here. Fodder can be bought just about anywhere there are animals, especially on well-traveled roads. Coal can only be bought from places where they mine it or in bigger towns and cities with a miner's guild or steamo's union.
    Besides, pulling the wagon with the steam armor means I have to walk all day, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a wagon.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatRickGuy View Post
    A heavily worked horse would eat more, but 25 quarts of grain would be the recommendation for the Arnold Schwartzeneger of horses, on roids, with a 20 hour a a day work out schedule.
    That's how much the Budweiser Clydesdale horses eat per day when they're part of a team pulling a load. And a quart of oats is only a pound, but oats are also one of the lightest grains per volume (corn would be the 1.7 at the upper end of the range I gave).
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  39. #39
    Destroyer of Worlds StJason's Avatar
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    I have a hunch that everyone is obsessing over the wrong end of the equation. I'm pretty sure (didn't find any good numbers) that the coal burning engines in IK are insanely efficient. Like 10-20x what they should be. (I'm ignoring the fact that they've made coal-fired turbines small enough to fit on your back...). In everything that I've seen, shoveling coal in a train was a near constant job. And they had huge hoppers and large boilers. I can't imagine the tiny hopper on the back of steam armor lasting more then a half hour in high-use. Steamjacks are better, but running times of a couple hours stretches credibility (not to mention submergeable steam engines...

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  40. #40
    Destroyer of Worlds Sosthenes's Avatar
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    I always retconned that to be special military-issue alchemically-treated coal, similar to Doc Browns "presto logs" in BTF III. At least for warjacks and similar equipment.

    Normal steamjacks and the smaller steamboats probably exceed realistic engines, too, but for that I either don't care too much or just say that it's a mixture between some alchemical enhancers and normal coal.

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