Soon the trees are upon us - What to do?

[LeSaboteur]

So I went to a local torney this weekend and stumbled across some Circle players. All they could talk about was how stupid good the Gallowes Groves are. They could barley keep from dancing of joy when they talked about how it would impact the game. And as trollplayer I can barley keep from weaping when i think about them, as we are the faction that will be hurt the most by this due to loosing tough.

They have so many uses that it is mindboggeling. Stop tough, snacking, transfers, healing. Channeling all those juicy Orboros spells and clog up chargelanes also springs to mind. There are probably even more things that they can do.

What can we do to counter this? Are there some good ideas out there that you can share with us, pleas post them here!

I for one can think of two units who makes it easier, and its the Kreilstone with elder and its Scattergunners. These two help against the stealth the Gallows will have when in concealment (and they will pretty much have it either from terrarin or from clouds layed out by druids). Kreilstone takes stealth away to let others chop them down and Scattergunners won't suffer for their low RAT when its autohit exept from snake eyes. And they can target their own to hit the trees.

But these two units aint much to hang in the christmastree. But I can't seem to figure out anything else that we have that is good against them.

[Robbe]

You lose tough in the command range of a tree which is 3". You nearly autohit it and you need 21 damage (ARM 16 + 5 hitpoints) so whatever you get inside those 3" can take it out on average dice (Fennblades/KWs/Scattergunnerspray). I'm not afraid that I can't do anything against it, I'm only afraid of the things my opponent will do to me.

[Jota]

I do not know their stats but Grim can hit them and put the death mark on them.
Jarl can hit something else and then MB them.
Charge the trees first? and if running Jarl, which should get the alphastrike, - cloud to free up charge lanes after the trees are removed.
Burrowers getting within 5".
EDoomy could cast primal aggression on a nearby tree after a well placed beast has charged something else.
This are the first few that pops into my mind, there are probably more

The thing is - if they are close enough to remove tough they should be in range for melee I think and then stealth is a no-issue.
Otherwise I do have problems with stealth with my TB, mostly the kind of stealth that hangs back or have long threat ranges.

[Kyuss]

As a Circle player as well, I think they were slightly calling your bluff. They have Prowl, so will only have Stealth with terrain. That's a more valuable unit not benefiting from terrain generation. There better for spreading buffs around rather than direct spells, with the exception really of Tornado on pKruger, or with Cassius as they fix one of his main problems (reach).

They are good, but they don't change the faction as much as people make out as they are significantly easier to kill than Geomancy beasts, and are in short, wha you would expect for a 1pt solo.

Saying that, if they could be teleported from stones.....

[bakaryu]

Bear in mind that they can only place 5" per turn (and only during their activation), their DEF is negligible and as has already been mentioned a POW21 damage roll (not difficult for Trollbloods) will kill it.

They only strip Tough while within 3" (which means they had to be within 8 inches of you and survived you killing it during your own turn) and can only channel while not engaged. We talked about them on the circle scrumcast just before Christmas, and really they are meant to help spread animi easier, anyone who tries to use them as a front line piece are going to be very disappointed.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Well, first off, they can be teleported with shifting stones for an 11 inch threat range of tough stripping.

Secondly, what they really hurt is our Jam lists.

This is important as Circle is one of the factions we generally want to try and jam, given their huge alpha strike potential. So if you try and crowd them in on their side of the table, you will pay for it in spades.

That said, in a regular list, they are much better off as just arcnodes. They are great, but the tough stripping is really secondary to the arcing.

Oh, and maybe worst of all, they can Make Cassius, who already has a pretty brutal feat against trollbloods that is balanced against the fact that he can't arc spells so he gets too close and dies all the time, pretty competitive.

I do not want cassius arcing hellmouth at my army left and right, and then popping his feat to force double tough rolls after I do engage him. Boo to that sir. Boo.

[mercury]

Well, first off, they can be teleported with shifting stones for an 11 inch threat range of tough stripping.

This is incorrect. A Gallows Grove can only ever be placed using its own Strange Growth ability. It is therefore immune to being teleported by Shifting Stones. With such a tiny control range, I don't think that they are THAT big a deal. Good value for 1 point certainly, but not game-breaking.

[garwjenk]

The way I see it, if we are worried about loosing tough in a 3" radius, then we should be freaking out when it comes to Grievous Wounds... but it's not that big of a deal. So they shove it out there so we loose tough, then it dies to a countercharge. Anyone who is relying on tough to be a significant factor in a game is probably barking up the wrong tree anyway. (no pun intended) They are good, but pretty limited in application I think, they are very slow.

What can we do to counter them? Pretty much everything in the army will kill one on the charge with average dice. A couple of 2pyg CRAs will do one in on average dice. Also, since Circle doesn't have a ton of medium base, they will be hard to screen. I really don't see them as a huge issue.

[ConejitoD]

Luckily for us Gallow Groves CAN'T be placed with shifting stones (it can't be placed by any other means that their own strange growth ability).

[PG_petegrrrr]

Ah yes, I forgot they had immobile AND strange growth. Still, it doesn't matter, as either way the only thing they really threaten is jamming lists.

[bakaryu]

Pete you had me ready to go reach for my Domination book then before someone else confirmed what I thought I already knew

They shouldn't even really hurt Jamming lists, Trollbloods as a faction should have an easier time than just about anybody when it comes to taking these things down, the only model in our entire army who fails to kill on average roll with a charge attack are the Scattergunners, everyone else outranges their port and aura.

Fennblades and Kriel Warriors kill on 9's, Cabers on 6's, Champions on 10's (with 4 dice and another attack to spare), etc etc

[JustNCREDIBLE]

One model comes to mind.... Bombers. Pow 16 initially so it they hit its almost guaranteed dead even average dice rolls. And if they got the prowl, w/ a low range like 8, it should clip it more often than not and just boost the AOE damage a couple times...

[PG_petegrrrr]

Pete you had me ready to go reach for my Domination book then before someone else confirmed what I thought I already knew

They shouldn't even really hurt Jamming lists, Trollbloods as a faction should have an easier time than just about anybody when it comes to taking these things down, the only model in our entire army who fails to kill on average roll with a charge attack are the Scattergunners, everyone else outranges their port and aura.

Fennblades and Kriel Warriors kill on 9's, Cabers on 6's, Champions on 10's (with 4 dice and another attack to spare), etc etc

They will still potentially hurt jamming lists, because they have AD so if you cross center line you are at risk. However, it would take 3-4 of them (a full FA really) to really effect a significant amount, and even then, that's not a huge deal. I expect my fennblades to die anyway.

What a really crafty circle player will do to annoy the crap out of us is, after engagement, get them within 3 of our damaged beasts.

That spirit you were going to heal before activating Mulg? not gonna happed. Regen? Nope. It will either potentially neuter a banged up beast, or dictate/screw up your order of activation.

That seems to be about the best use I can get out of them, besides them just being sweet arcnodes. It's still not cripplingly, OMG here comes the Sea Hag part 2 bad by any means, but they certainly can be a major pain if used right and in numbers. Will that happen? Who knows, but the potential is at least there.

[PG_petegrrrr]

One model comes to mind.... Bombers. Pow 16 initially so it they hit its almost guaranteed dead even average dice rolls. And if they got the prowl, w/ a low range like 8, it should clip it more often than not and just boost the AOE damage a couple times...

Average dice, assuming you deviate the right distance (which you only have a 50/50 shot at, since a distance of 4-6 inches will miss them), you land a template on them once and do 2 damage. They aren't hard to take out, but they aren't THAT easy either.

And once again, you just wasted a 10 point beasts entire activation to try and kill a 1 point model.

Just treat them like warmachine arcnodes: run something up to engage it and kill it when you get around to it. Don't waste activations of expensive models and units unless you absolutely have too, as entropic force is just not that big a deal in such a small area.

[PG_machine007]

Just treat them like warmachine arcnodes: run something up to engage it and kill it when you get around to it. Don't waste activations of expensive models and units unless you absolutely have too, as entropic force is just not that big a deal in such a small area.

Well a problem with that is that even if you engage it can just teleport away and still be arced through on the next turn, which is quite different than most other arc nodes in warmachine.

We have plenty of ways to kill it and I don't really see the tough thing being all that useful. It's only three inches, and even if you have models B2B a decent three inches and not being engaged will only clip two trollkin from all angles, up to maybe 6 from the front arc if you are incredibly bunched up. If you are bunched up againsts casters that would be using the tree (Kassius, Krueger, etc.) then you are already in for a world of hurt and should have spread them out much more.

Just off the top of my head I thought to kill it through. Biggest thing is that if it can see you to arc spells (Through woods), you can see it.

Grim,
Burrowers
Fennblades Charge
Scattergunners
Fell Caller spray
Pyre Troll Fire and AOE
Impact attacks from Cav if you really must
Scouts
Rok
SOBs

Some are more easier than others, but it really isn't the end all be all. It isn't like that stupid Cryx Witch...

[santospr]

The problem with Gallows Groves is not that they even hard to one shot, or even the tough removing affect, it is that it is 1 point arc node that does not die after using it, meaning if you don't kill it on your turn, the opponent will just port it to an even better position and channel more spells through it (assuming the warlock is a spell slinger like Mohsar or Cassius). Killing a 1 point model is usually never worth it, unless it is killed by a 1 point or free model/activation.

Otherwise, you just took a spell to the face, lost some possible tough checks or couldn't heal your beast, all for just 1 point. That is the clincher. Also, your opponent won't feel it at all. Because it is a 1 point model.


Apologize for the thread necromancy, although it has only been 3 months!

[Robbe]

There will always be 1-2 spare fennblades to Charge/Vengeance stupid trees.
3" no tough? if the tree comes that close, the no tough is not your real trouble
and i don't fear circle for spell slinging, it will help with buffs though

the only thing i would complain about:
Y U NO give us a 1pt filler solo?

[Gdead909]

the only thing i would complain about:
Y U NO give us a 1pt filler solo?

I second this!

[PG_joedj]

If you've ever had the opportunity to play against the Satyxis Blood Hag and Blood Witches (with a Trollblood melee list), you'd see the powerful effect of a Tough-Healing negating aura that can move, especially in scenario play against Trolls. First time I've played with them last game night. Annoying!

Gallows Groves are thankfully slow.
Still Gallows Groves (and Legion Spell Martyrs) are the type of model that are worthy of an early 'wasted' attack.

[ZenDruid]

One word... Throw.
Any warbeast with at least one open hand can toss the thing 3" away.

[Charistoph]

Are they small enough and weak enough to make Trampling through them woth while? Or using the Tuffalo to smack them around as they rumble by?

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Are they small enough and weak enough to make Trampling through them woth while? Or using the Tuffalo to smack them around as they rumble by?

They're medium based models, so no.

[PG_machine007]

One word... Throw.
Any warbeast with at least one open hand can toss the thing 3" away.

Can't be placed except by strange growth, so you can't throw them.

[ZenDruid]

Can't be moved or can't be placed?

[PG_machine007]

Can't be moved or can't be placed?

both, actually. It's also immobile

[ZenDruid]

Grrrrr Mulg wants to throw it!

[PG_machine007]

Grrrrr Mulg wants to throw it!

In that case, just apply some fist to bark.

[PG_somnicide]

Hmmm that would be a simple fun conversion - Mulg wielding one of them.

[PG_frazerpenman]

Hmmm that would be a simple fun conversion - Mulg wielding one of them.

I'd rather use Wurmwood for that conversion