Some general questions about lists and tournaments

[tutenkharnage]

I've been playing this game for a few months, and I've got only about 15 games under my belt, but my group is having a tournament in the middle of March. I'm not going into this tournament to do anything more than play my best and have a good time, but the whole thing has gotten me thinking about lists in general and what I should do for tournaments (future ones, mostly).

One thing I've noticed is that people make lists to handle a lot of things you might run into, like:

• Infantry spam
• Incorporeal models
• Gunlines
• Stealth
• High DEF
• High ARM
• Etc.

Right now, I don't have any models, outside of warcasters, that have magic weapons. Well, I've got a Koldun Lord in a box somewhere, but that's it right now. For the March tournament, we're allowed to bring two lists, although it's not mandatory. So, first question: Am I going to be totally boned if I run into a list filled with incorporeal models, or will I be able to handle it because I usually get charged first anyway and can simply retaliate in force after the opposing models turn corporeal?

My second question is on off-shoot of this one. Do people put magic weapons into every tournament list they play, or does it depend on the tournament's list rules (e.g., "you have two lists and can't use them back-to-back")? Am I stuck putting Doom Reavers, Aiyana and Holt, a Greylord Ternion, or a Koldun Lord into every list just to stay out of the "horribly boned" zone in a tournament, or even when I show up for casual game night?

Finally, I'd like to hear about the thought process and the levels of thinking that go into picking a list against an opponent in a two-list tournament. For example, let's suppose you have two lists: one list with magic weapons, and one without (or hardly any, maybe a Koldun Lord at most). Your opponent has one list with a lot of incorporeal models but another that has none (or hardly any). Here's the way I think it typically goes:

1. If he picks the incorporeal list, and you don't pick the list with the magic weapons, you're boned. Therefore, you can't pick the list with the magic weapons.
2. Your opponent, knowing you won't pick the list with magic weapons, is free to pick the list that matches up better with your other list. This could be either list, depending on how your non-MW list is configured and how his two lists are configured. Either way, however, the hole in your list has forced your hand but given more freedom to your opponent.

Is that typical? If so, how do you force the issue so your opponent has to worry about your hard counter more than you have to worry about his? Also, who wins a game of chicken if you each have one list that does horribly against one of the opposing lists? Does one of the items in the problem list trump the others? And does anyone go "level two thinking" and figure, in a scenario similar to that in the example above, that the opponent will guess that you'll avoid the non-MW list, so you can actually pick it knowing that it matches up better with the list you think he'll pick, even at the risk that he'll pick the incorporeal list anyway? (For that matter, does anyone go "level three"?)

Now, for the record, I'm content to play this first tournament with a limited model selection--it's not imperative to me that I rush out and buy some Doom Reavers, for example. That said, I'm going to buy them eventually, so if now seems like a convenient time to add some magic weapons to my collection, that's fine. But do I have to include some in every list? Or anti-Stealth? Or anti-high-DEF-tarpit? It seems that you can't fit everything in at 35 points, and maybe even at 50. (The March tournament will be 35 points.) I understand that there's going to be a big difference between the model selection at a local 20-player tournament and whatever shows up at GenCon in June, but I'm interested in hearing observations about both kinds of tournaments.

Thanks in advance. I'm looking forward to learning some stuff here.

[Nirvanawn]

Hey why don't we hang out and talk about it some time. We do play the same faction. Let me know or email me.

[scout's honor]

Am I going to be totally boned if I run into a list filled with incorporeal models, or will I be able to handle it because I usually get charged first anyway and can simply retaliate in force after the opposing models turn corporeal?

Models that can stay incorporeal indefinitely can run up to your caster and only attack there and then, so that's not much a defence. Against a list "filled" with incorporeal models you will be boned, although even in my meta that's pretty thick with that sort of thing massive incorporealness is very rare.

My second question is on off-shoot of this one. Do people put magic weapons into every tournament list they play, or does it depend on the tournament's list rules (e.g., "you have two lists and can't use them back-to-back")? Am I stuck putting Doom Reavers, Aiyana and Holt, a Greylord Ternion, or a Koldun Lord into every list just to stay out of the "horribly boned" zone in a tournament, or even when I show up for casual game night?

Personally I almost always make sure I'm covered for magic attacks, but it's not necessarily imperative. A caster with a decent offensive spell and/or weapon who isn't too squishy can handle a few incorporeal models by himself if it comes to that. Between his excellent ROF 2 gun and Airburst for instance, pIrusk doesn't have much of a problem taking out a couple incorporeal solos, we have the fairly ubiquitous Razor Wind and even a whole bunch of incorporeal models are going to have their work cut out trying to make a dent in an Iron Fleshed focus camping Butcher. In that case incorporealness is still a solid advantage, but hardly an auto-win.

Finally, I'd like to hear about the thought process and the levels of thinking that go into picking a list against an opponent in a two-list tournament.

What you mean in your example is that you have to pick the list with magical weapons, not the opposite.

That said, I don't buy into creating lists to cover each other's weaknesses. I'd want one very solid all-comers list and another that's more extreme in application and can hopefully create a good matchup somewhere (assuming the format doesn't require me to use each list at least once - in that case I want two all-comers lists, although I'd tailor one somewhat to work well against one or more factions I'm quasi-certain to encounter). In your case, that'd make the list with magical weapons your all-comers list and the other list the one you can use if it would be more favourable against a specific opponent.

Now, for the record, I'm content to play this first tournament with a limited model selection--it's not imperative to me that I rush out and buy some Doom Reavers, for example. That said, I'm going to buy them eventually, so if now seems like a convenient time to add some magic weapons to my collection, that's fine. But do I have to include some in every list? Or anti-Stealth? Or anti-high-DEF-tarpit? It seems that you can't fit everything in at 35 points, and maybe even at 50. (The March tournament will be 35 points.) I understand that there's going to be a big difference between the model selection at a local 20-player tournament and whatever shows up at GenCon in June, but I'm interested in hearing observations about both kinds of tournaments.

I wouldn't do it in my meta, but it's usually not too horrible a gamble not to worry too much about seeing incorporeal models across the table. Like I said, you should be able to make sure you're not looking at an auto-loss even without a list that's ready to deal with a whole lot of them anyway. Anti-stealth only matters if you have a sizeable ranged component in your list (so Cryx players don't usually have to consider that), but if that's the case you really want it. Being able to deal with high DEF or ARM is absolutely critical, and related to that so is being able to deal with infantry and jack spam. Pathfinder is kind of a biggie too. I don't usually put a premium on anti-upkeep with Khador lists, but it's certainly useful - more with certain lists/casters than others - as it can tie into the high DEF/ARM requirement.

[rivenwyrm]

I'm in agreement with Scout (thorough response, btw, well done sir!). For example, in a two-list format, I typically bring one all-comers list (OW/pIrusk/eSorscha with WGI), that can handle various shenanigans, and then one mean list (eVlad + Uhlans mostly). It's worked out fairly well so far.

The all-comers list is just solid, so it doesn't really care about a counter-pick that much, while the other list is there if I see a suitable scenario or a good list to put it against.

[tutenkharnage]

Hey why don't we hang out and talk about it some time. We do play the same faction. Let me know or email me.

Yes, you are on my list of talk-to people; that said, I check the forum every night, but we see each other only every 2-3 weeks

[Nirvanawn]

Hey you are more then welcome over whenever you like, it not like I do anything. I also have a few more spare models if you are interested. Some have magical weapons. Feel free to call or email.