SR2012 is up!

[Dr_Norbert]

I wrote a post for the Lost Hemisphere blog reviewing all the major changes in the Steamroller 2012 rules pack. Note that I made an error in figuring out the overall turn time. The comments point out the correction (the logic still remains the same) and we are working on getting the text amended.


http://losthemisphere.com/blog/?p=18526

--Norbert

[Necra-Chi]

Some more thoughts after reading he rules more thoroughly and reading some of the concerns here.

I don't think we need two documents. A lot of the success of steamroller relies on how much effort a TO puts in. I've only run one event but when I did i tailored SR2011 tournament pack and cut out the bits i didn't want and created a new tournament pack that fell within the rules for alternatives, but only gave them the rules and scenarios they needed for the day. It was like eight pages or something insignificant like that. A TO who wants to creat a whacky tiurnament or a user friendly one or a beginner friendly one can do so with this document. With a little effort.

That being said, if TOs are lazy and just do the default settings and don't summarise the documenT, they might turn a lot of players off.

I like how this document gives a framework for a variety of tournament types. And i really like the interactive objectives. It corresponds well to my idea and suggestion that there should be in game benefits for controlling areas or flags and instead of control points, but this interactive objective idea probably works even better. Well done.

I am still concerned about the complexity and difficulty of winning by scenario. Too often i have seen or been a TO anouncing the rules for a scenario and seen abunch of players rolling their eyes and saying things like " so lets just do caster kill then".

But maybe the new time limits allowing a minimum of 5 turns will be what really makes the scenarios tick. Because then i won't have to try and take a zone prematurely and get my stuff killed until I'm good and ready because I'm not worrying that if I don't go for it now I won't have enough turns later to do it.

Guaranteed five turns is pretty massive. And I suspect that a lot of games will finish faster than the round limit because most games don't last more than 3 turns, in my experience, but then again I'm a pretty aggressive player.

[Vex]

The scenarios are really easy to grasp somewhat intuitively once you have played them a couple of times.

Gee, that's great. Players only need to struggle through 36 games or so before the scenarios become easy to understand. I'll say it again - 18 scenarios is WAY too many.

[Blaque]

I just don't get what's so bad about 18 scenarios.

No one is putting a gun to your head to play them all. You will not play them all in a tournament (at most, you'll play 6 most of the time, more often 5). The TO has total control on what ones will be used, and your local players can chose simply not to play some of them. Our group pretty much despised Grind and Demolition in SR 2011, so we never did those, for instnace.

What is it about the amount htat's an issue? Especially since most use more or less the same rules save Interactive Scenarios (which I think are the hardest ones to deal with). Do people feel that they are compulsed to play them all in casual play? Is it the fact you have to go through them?

Why is 6 so much better than 18? Is it because they will have a better predicatbility value (the reason that we have 18 is so that you can't get "can do everything" lists as much)? Is it because there is less volume to work with? (which to me is moot in how many rules running your vaction well does.) I am not sure, really, I can't figure it out myself.

And stuff.

[Necra-Chi]

Don't see it as "too many scenarios, too many rules, too many options, too much text". Rather see it as " oh so many options of how to play a tounament that i know someone has tested for fairness and balance and will support with cool prizes"

[scout's honor]

Our PG knows that we don't much care for SR so we still play it on sometimes but every event is certainly not SR. I'm sure he will go through the document and pick and choose what to use. I guess all I'm saying is it would be nice if he didn't have to. I think there is merit to having a second, more simplified document.

If the more competitive players are the more vocal ones about events, then they're going to be the ones asking their PGs/TOs for events that let them prep for the bigger tournaments at cons and whatnot. They will still have access to the "full" SR document, since it'd be inane not to let players prepare for such events in advance. Moreover, two versions of an event package will scream "first rate" and "second rate" to a lot of players. Guess what the competitive ones will want?

I've organized a few events myself (nothing special, and I wouldn't call myself especially qualified either). There's a bit of work involved either way, and if part of that work is familiarizing myself with the SR rules and paring down the options to what I feel is appropriate for my local meta it's certainly not the larger part. I'll be going over the SR2012 scenarios this weekend anyway. PGs (which I'm not, as you can see by my handle) have had the preliminary version for ages, and it's apparently virtually the same as the final version. If they want to organize an event, getting to know the current SR is probably not going to be a whole lot of effort anymore. Picking - as in deliberately choosing rather than rolling a couple of dice - a handful of scenarios to use is not a monumental effort.

I really, really don't see the big deal about there being more scenarios in the document than absolutely necessary. If it comes to new models with new rules and new possibilities and new tactical implications for lists, PP can't release them fast enough. If it comes to special formats like Mangled Metal, Highlander or stuff like Foodmachine, nobody starts groaning when someone else comes up with a new idea. But if PP gives us 18 scenarios when we'd have been happy with 6, that's something to complain about? Come on now...

[The Happy Anarchist]

Gee, that's great. Players only need to struggle through 36 games or so before the scenarios become easy to understand. I'll say it again - 18 scenarios is WAY too many.

And I'll say it again. Which scenarios are redundant and provide a duplicate play experience? I don't think 36 games over an entire year is completely unreasonable to have a new tournament format down pat. Keep in mind, during those 36 games you should be sideswiped by anything if you pay attention when the TO reads the scenario. As Blaque mentioned, the Interactive Scenarios are the most complicated, but low and behold - PP has provided wonderful cards to remind you of the more complicated rules!

If you have too much trouble with learning and trying new things, ask your TO to play it safe and pick your 6 favorite scenarios and do that. Frankly, they are not that complicated - particularly not compared to something like a new warlock or warcaster. I had to play at least 3 or 4 games with Jarl to really get how he worked, another 3-4 on Rok with different casters. Try picking up a new faction and you easily get 30+ games to really get how they work. I am not seeing how this is a big issue.

Also, one should note that I said grasp intuitively - as in you will be able to see the board, see the zones and figure out what needs to be done without having to go over the nitty gritty details every time. You should be able to understand the scenarios the first time they are read and you play a game with them.

[gunslingerpro]

18 Scenarios is too many! How will I ever learn them all?
36 Flavors of Ice Cream is too many! How will I ever know what my favorite is?
400 Channels of Television is too many! How will I ever know whats on TV?

Come on now people.

[Defenstrator]

18 Scenarios is too many! How will I ever learn them all?
36 Flavors of Ice Cream is too many! How will I ever know what my favorite is?
400 Channels of Television is too many! How will I ever know whats on TV?

Come on now people.

Well if you don't eat too much ice cream or watch too much tv, they kind of are.

I've been playing warmachine for a long time, but I still only get 1-3 games a week in. Which I think is typical of people who have lives and obligations outside of the game. When I was 23 and game is all that my friends and I did with our free time, yeah, no problem. But as a guy with a job, and a wife, and kids, etc, it's going to take me months to grind through all the scenarios.

[PG_malfred]

Well if you don't eat too much ice cream or watch too much tv, they kind of are.

I've been playing warmachine for a long time, but I still only get 1-3 games a week in. Which I think is typical of people who have lives and obligations outside of the game. When I was 23 and game is all that my friends and I did with our free time, yeah, no problem. But as a guy with a job, and a wife, and kids, etc, it's going to take me months to grind through all the scenarios.

You won't have to. If you play in a 4 round tournament
you will play 4 scenarios. How will you have to grind through 18?

[Defenstrator]

To practice them so I don't auto-lose becuase I didn't get the scenario.

[gunslingerpro]

To practice them so I don't auto-lose becuase I didn't get the scenario.

This could also be prevented by reading through the scenarios in your spare time.

Even with wife/kids/job/etc, 40 pages of reading should be a snap.

[Khador247]

Bottom line is there are a lot of people that are really happy with this document and can't wait to start playing games with these rules. Some have started already. There are also a lot of other people that are less than thrilled by these rules. As a member of the second group my options are to 1. not play in Steamroller events 2. play in the events anyhow. I'll be taking option 2.

Bottom line is I love this stupid game way too much to let the SR2012 document (or the avid supporters of it that post on these forums) ruin my enjoyment of it. I have a few hobbies but playing WM is my favorite. Right now I'm pretty much spinning in circles with excitement because I have NQ40 sitting here next to me complete with the rules, fluff and painting guide for Black Dragon IFP. So, SR isn't going to ruin this day for me. Can't wait to see the rules for the new Vlad and who knows maybe we'll get a new IFP solo or something.

[Defenstrator]

Oh I have, but I've read all the Force books as well, and still get caught by things I've only read about.

[Necra-Chi]

This could also be prevented by reading through the scenarios in your spare time.

Even with wife/kids/job/etc, 40 pages of reading should be a snap.

Nah i'm with defenstrator on this one. You don't really get it until you try it.

[Karl Eller]

As a new player, my first reaction to SR2012 was... intimidating. I thought "Oh, I'll just print off the scenario pages and read through them", and 25 pages later I had a stack of paper half the thickness of my Forces of Khador book The interactive objective scenarios were confusing and there were just so. Many. Capture. Scenarios, often with seemingly arbitrary rules.

After taking a few days to read over everything, however, it's a lot less intimidating. I still need to play some scenarios with interactive objectives to properly get the hang of them, as well as some reinforcement scenarios to see how that mixes things up, but most of the scenarios are relatively straight forwards. You just need to read the page a couple of times before the game to make sure you get the scenario scoring right, but the objectives are easy enough to understand, with enough difference to stop it getting boring.

Getting a "newbie friendly" tournament using SR2012 will probably take a little work from the TO/EO to pick out a few more straight-forward scenarios (rather than rolling on the full table of 18), but the tools are all there, they just need to be used.

[PG_PrOtOcoN]

Maybe its just that I teach so many people games, but I found the SR2012 document not to be that complex once you break it down.

I've started teaching people how things work by setting up small practice scenarios where we use elements from the SR like the Restoration cache or the Artillery emplacement, just so people start getting what they're all about. That way, when I hit them with Guidons or Demolition or Restoration scenario they'll know what's up.
Its literally just a board with the relevant interactive objective/rule/deployment and we go through it. The people I've got in my meta are all new at this anyway so some extra rules concerning the actual winning of the game doesn't seem to bother them any more than anything else.

Its different, its more involved than the SR2011 scenarios were and it seems to lend itself more to the 'Cinematic' which seems to be a theme =D

[Trygle]

Steamroller 2012 Thoughts:

Hate Hate Hate HATE the time limits. As expected it takes a tremendous amount of skill to run infantry heavy, both knowing your models as well as your opponents. Though once you get in the swing of things it begins to even out. Keeping your cool helps, but an extra two minutes would have made the difference between assassination or failure.

Still, I guess I have to take some Jacks then :S

[Sanctjud]

Random note, I went to a 50 points tourney with a 46 model army, each with multiple attacks. Granted it was deathclock, I finished with plenty of time to spare.hl
Working with time really is just about yourself...you need to know your list inside out, you need to plan your turns before the game and then adjust during your opponents turn. You need to identify meaningful attacks and charges, so that you spend time in that and not on attacks that are unlikely to be beneficial in the big picture.

[Magnus0740]

For those of you who read the whole 40 pages of the 2012 rules...bravo! I think I dozed off around page 3 or 4. It's like ready am owners manual for a a car....

[The Happy Anarchist]

Well if you don't eat too much ice cream or watch too much tv, they kind of are.

I've been playing warmachine for a long time, but I still only get 1-3 games a week in. Which I think is typical of people who have lives and obligations outside of the game. When I was 23 and game is all that my friends and I did with our free time, yeah, no problem. But as a guy with a job, and a wife, and kids, etc, it's going to take me months to grind through all the scenarios.

I have a job, wife and kids and sometimes don't get any games in a week. 4 games is the most and that is only thwe occasional torunament that gets the four rounds in.

What surprises me is that you say it like it is a bad thing. I am looking forward to months of playing the scenarios while fresh and new. The basics are still similar and the new scenarios are easy once you get how interactive objectives work. They are really much easier to understand once you have played even one or two of them.

[Blaque]

40 pages are a bit of a misnomer. 18 of them (the scenarios themselves) have something like 1/5 a page's worth of text, if that, with how much is taken-up by headings and diagrams. Most the rules are on the Reference Sheet. Which as I look through, would probably do better to be before the scenarios, rather than after them as they currently are.

And stuff.

[Trygle]

I would kill for Deathclock. The minutes saved on the first turn would have easily saved the game for later turns.

[Sanctjud]

Agreed, I spoke to Hacksaw this weekend, and at $least we three agree that deathclock is the way to go. ^_^

[yastobaal]

To practice them so I don't auto-lose becuase I didn't get the scenario.

No worries I've got you covered. Each of these is the simplest way I could find to stop your opponent scoring any control points. Write on your copy of steamroller and then you have a constant reminder.

1. Close Quarters

How not to lose:
Contest closest zone


2. Gauntlet

How not to lose:
Contest nearest zone


3. Overrun

How not to lose:
Contest zone


4. Guidons

How not to lose:
Contest enemy objective
Protect own


5. Supply and Demand

How not to lose:
Protect own objective
Contest enemy objective


6. Destruction

How not to lose:
Protect nearest objective


7. Incursion

How not to lose:
Contest flags


8. Process of Elimination

How not to lose:
Contest ONE zone


9. Outflank, Outfight, Outlast

How not to lose:
Contest zones


10. A Flag Too Far

How not to lose:
Contest centre left flag


11. Bunkers

How not to lose:
Contest left zone


12. Envelopment

How not to lose:
Contest near zone


13. Demolition

How not to lose:
Contest near zone
Contest objective


14. Incoming

How not to lose:
Protect near objective and contest near zone
Contest far objective


15. Restoration

How not to lose:
Protect near objective
Contest zone


16. Command and Control

How not to lose:
Contest zone


17. Diversion

How not to lose:
Contest left flag


18. Sacrifice

How not to lose:
Contest zone

[Necra-Chi]

The problem with all those is that a lot of them are "contest" which makes it sound easy but if you don't do it with enough stuff, the opponent might kill off your stuff and score at the end of their turn. Then you have an uphill battle because you haven't been trying to win by scenario. But nice write up. Thanks.

[yastobaal]

Ok, how to win as well:

1. Close Quarters

How to win:
Caster in a zone
Control far zone


2. Gauntlet

How to win:
Control far zone


3. Overrun

How to win:
Control zone


4. Guidons

How to win:
Control/destroy enemy objective
Move own objective to near zone


5. Supply and Demand

How to win:
Control far zone and destroy enemy objective
Control near objective and contest far zone


6. Destruction

How to win
Destroy far objectives


7. Incursion

How to win:
Control flags


8. Process of Elimination

How to win:
Control one zone then the other


9. Outflank, Outfight, Outlast

How to win:
Control zones


10. A Flag Too Far

How to win:
Control centre right flag and go for far flag


11. Bunkers

How to win:
Control right zone


12. Envelopment

How to win:
Control far zone


13. Demolition

How to win:
Control objective
Control far zone


14. Incoming

How to win:
Destroy far objective and control far zone
Control near objective


15. Restoration

How to win:
Destroy far objective
Control zone


16. Command and Control

How to win:
Control zone and caster contest a flag


17. Diversion

How to win:
Control right flag
Contest far zone


18. Sacrifice

How to win:
Control zone and base-to-base flag

[Sanctjud]

How to win: Kill Enemy Caster/Lock.
/Thread

[Ubik]

In my opinion, the more missions, the merrier. Sure there may be some missions that you aren't used to when you play a tournament, but I feel the game becomes richer as a whole with more 'official' missions floating around. I would much prefer to learn a mission on the fly then have to play Killbox every second mission.

The one complaint I have, and it's not just about Steamroller 2012, is that missions need flavour text. One or two lines, that's all I'm asking for. Give me a little bit of text that tells me that I'm trying to form a breach in the enemy lines, hold a breach in my fortifications, secure supplies, whatever. As it is, I could be scoring touchdowns in a steampunk rugby game for all I know. Missions are a lot more engaging if you can visualise why you are trying to control a small patch of land.

[Warlordtheft]

Also the TO could pick the scenarios beforehand and have the cheat sheets RTG. So the players themselves really only have to doe the following:

1. Show-up.
2. Bring their armies and their army lists (including reinforcements)
3. Undertand the basics of control and contesting objectives.

I think most TO's will tailor the tourney to the players.