Why Striders are recommended instead of Archers?

[Ector]

Hi all. I am a Khador player who wants to start something different (i.e. Legion). It's a shame that the Tactica here is so poor: every beast deserves its own write-up, as well as every unit or solo, and here we have just a mixed review of the beasts and NOTHING about the infantry
Thunder_God's guides are very useful, but I have a question. Why Striders are recommended instead of Archers? Oh yes, Striders have Stealth and Advance Deployment, but the full unit has only 8 models for 9 points, and they have no abilities to improve their fire. Hunter and Reform are great abilities, but they don't improve accuracy or damage, they just help your Striders to survive.
Archers have 12 models for 10 points, and while they have worse RAT, their CRA and Combined Arms more than compensate for that. If you manage to get ROF 2, they become really devastating. They're even better than Cygnar long gunners! (Yes I know that comparing cross-faction is silly and Cygnar has much better support for their shooters). If you face a high-DEF infantry (which is very common now), Striders will make 4 two-man CRAs with RAT 8, while Archers will make 6 two-man CRAs with RAT 7 and reroll, and 6 more if you get ROF 2 - that's three times more attacks with better accuracy.

So, why Striders? Yes, the Archers are fragile, but you have 12 models compared to 8 for almost the same price. If the opponent hunts for them, then your main beaters are safe Some casters can put Occultation on them, or give them all concealment. Moreover, sometimes you PLAN to have some losses (for Spawning Vessel, for instance).

[MeniteTom]

You're seriously undervaluing Stealth, Advance Deployment and Reform. Striders also have higher RAT, SPD and Hunter. They can also spread themselves over a greater distance than Archers. The ONLY thing that Archers have going for them is Dual Shot, which they only get if they can forfeit movement.

[Soul King]

The main reason is that Striders are generally more independent that Archers, especially because many of our warlocks dont support infantry that well.

The Striders are fast, hard to hit (more important than the point of armour tradeoff that the archers have), and can take out infantry before retreating. If you look at many of our warlocks, though especially Rhyas, Bethayne and the Lylyths, they all have tools that help both units. However, the striders let you save some of your magic for something else. If Rhyas wants to prevent swordsmen from being blown up, she can put occultation on them, while ensuring that the striders will also be just as well protected. The same goes with Bethayne and choking veil.

This isn't to say that the archers are bad. They are a solid unit. The problem is that you are trying to use a unit that needs some babysitting from the warlock to achieve the same results that the striders can pretty much do with almost no help. In addition, planning losses with the spawning vessel is never a good way to think. Your trading an 11 point unit with the UA for 8 points of lessers. Meanwhile, striders are 9 points, so the trade off is much smaller for the rate of return that they provide. Besides, if your gonna use meat shields, use cheaper ones like Grotesques or Legionnaires

[Angelust]

Lower Defense = easier to hit with average shooting from the opponent, especially when they outrange you.

ROF 2 requires not moving, which limits their threat range to a hard 12". Not moving also means an opponent who is moving models will deny shots from some models because LOS gets shifted around.

Hunter is a HUGE bonus. It doesn't just allow them to remain behind forests and rough terrain, it removes the benefit of concealment and cover, which is huge. If you've ever had a unit of striders remain behind a forest and simply shoot at the stuff on the other side, then reform 3"...it's hard to quantify how good that is.

Striders have P&S +2 on the archers, where, not great, are still doing average 19-20 pts on the charge, which can get past single-wound shieldwallers and def-liners better.

Striders with UA effectively have 3" more command range than the archer unit, which lets them really spread out and multi-task, as well as avoid inevitable AOEs. For low arm stealth models, that ups their survivability a ton.

Stealth shouldn't be underestimated. It may not survive well against some true-sighting or AOE lobbing units, but many lists don't bring particularly effective counters to ranged stealth units.

Striders also have +1 SPD over archers, which really let them zip up a flank and force your opponent to lose his support or split his army's facing.


So you basically have 12 guys that can put out a LOT of shots when they're not moving for as much as a Ravagore, or 8 guys that are quite hard to remove, mobile, and dominate areas near forests for as much as Scythean.

Personally, if I want a lot of crappy firepower, I'll play Cygnar. If I want an arrow in a druid's eye, I'll play Striders.

[zor]

Striders with UA are awesome, with a Deathstalker around...even better. They have the ability to CONTROL a flank. Archers at best are an inconvenience. Not enough shots for their survivability.

[Thenmy]

Why don't you take them both out for a few spins and see why?

I think it mostly comes down to how people prefer to play Legion - mobile, agile, tricksy and with the ability to strike at the enemy when and where they want. Striders support this type of game much more than Archers, who prefer a more static defense to utilise Dual Shot.

Playstyle aside, Striders are vastly more accurate than Archers. In my meta at least, Hunter makes an enormous difference in accuracy. I guess if you don't play with terrain or mostly have hills or buildings it doesn't make that much of a difference, but it actually synergizes quite well with Eyeless Sight. The beasts can shoot the stuff that has Stealth or hides behind clouds, but struggle with the DEF bonus that cover provides. Striders solve this problem with Hunter, and the ability to stand on one side of a forest and shoot the enemy's support while being completely out of their LOS should not be underestimated.

Striders come with Stealth, Camouflage, +2 DEF, +1 RAT, Hunter, Advance Deployment and supreme mobility with +1 SPD, In Step and Reform. Archers are a huge unit without Ranked Attacks, making them get in each others' way. Supressing Fire offers some nice board control I guess, but against a skilled opponent you'll never get to make that static double mega CRA that they seem to offer on paper.

Archers rocked MK1. Striders rock MK2.

EDIT: Wow, triple-ninjaed.

[Ector]

Striders also have higher RAT... The ONLY thing that Archers have going for them is Dual Shot, which they only get if they can forfeit movement.

That's not true - Archers have higher effective RAT for CRAs due to Combined Arms.

[wazatdingder]

I'm in the camp of if you like them so much prove us wrong, I got 2 units on the shelf waiting for something to make them relevant.

[Blugger]

Angelust pretty much nailed all their advantages

I'll just add that striders are vastly more easy to use an incorporate in a list. Dual shot is very hard to get off especially when there's only one SNIPE option in faction and it's tied to a feat, and while combined arms seems to compete with hunter's ability to ignore concealment cover, it does nothing for the LOS required.

Though archers might seem like a superior choice due to bulk of models and firepower (please keep in mind how difficult dual shot is to get, though) the strider's superior speed, maneuverability (ie reform + swift hunter if you have a stalker), ability to spread apart and ability to hit targets that might be otherwise unavailable to arches make them far more flexible and, therefore, easy to use and get returns on.

They can threaten a lot more of your opponent and keep themselves a lot safer than archers can

[Vail_Nocturne]

Why not Both?

Archers are a different niche, even with their UA, but they can be gross as untyped damage against a lot of tarpits.
They also feed the Pot pretty well. Pair them up with Legionairs w/ UA and you have a great fodder wall.
Then run Striders along the flank with Deathstalkers. Do all this with either Lylyth or Kallus.

The big issue is Legion loves their Beasts. But you will often see how we need untyped damage so take a Bolt Thrower. Archers serve a similar purpose.

Imagine Two Ravagore templates and a 5" archer template. No fodder or 1 wound wall is getting through that mess.

Finally, their ability to CRA means they can punch a Hole for an assassination run.


Their weakness are well known, but are pretty much the same as any stock infantry.

[Ector]

Dual shot is very hard to get off especially when there's only one SNIPE option in faction and it's tied to a feat, and while combined arms seems to compete with hunter's ability to ignore concealment cover, it does nothing for the LOS required.

This is completely true, but that Snipe option combined with Pin Cushion makes Archers completely insane. You get to make THREE attacks with 12 models at RNG 16, and each attack has "Signs and Portents" effect and can be rerolled if missed. This is going to kill most casters outright, even with DEF 16. You don't even have to forfeit movement: two attacks per trooper is also very good. You also don't have to assassinate their caster/warlock: destroying a solid portion of their forces may be enough.
Gallows should also be very good with Archers: they can shoot twice at the pulled thing. Same about eThagrosh's Scourge: if they are knocked down, all shots are going to hit. Vayl's Chiller also helps a lot. eVayl has Occultation and Icy Grip. In other words, better firepower can be better than better movement and survivability.

[Neutralyze]

gallows is a random D6 effect. counting on a random effect is asking for disaster.

on elylyths feat turn only warbeasts in the battle group get an additional shot not troopers.

[Rampaging Elk]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Pin Cushion is an offensive spell. It only works on one target, which means you're spending 3 or eLyl's paltry 5 fury just to cast the spell, plus one to boost. Considering that you have to use it on a high DEF target to really make it effective, you're probably better off just buying her attacks.

[Szary]

Archers looks really good with their UA and I try them in my games from time to time but to be honest I recall Striders to be just more superior choice. In fact its hard for me to imagine building a tourney list when I would take Archers over Striders.


Striders can advance shoot accurately reform and free space for other models and they can be spread across large portion of the table. They don?t cost much time in tourney environment and are user friendly due to reform and large command.

Striders also have better threat range and in my opinion are better at flanking and removing support solos and units (for me it is they main purpose).

Archers on the other hand are a body of 12 models that get in the way and must meet certain conditions (aim) to be most effective.


Striders have def 15 meaning that they are hard to hit by most models without boosting. They can be spread out so AOE don?t hurt them as much as they hurt big unit of archers. They can be used to get in the way or contest objectives. They have stealth and camouflage (yes camo was useful in some of my games) so they are harder to get rid off.


As for archers I?m waiting to try them with Helion some day where they high volume of attacks can be very useful.

[Defenstrator]

I can't really add more to what Angelust said except to emphasise how good Reform is combined with Stealth. Playing the Striders is like triming a hedge. You move up, kill everything in the 10-12 inch range, and back up 3". You're too far away to charge, or maybe even run to, and they can't shoot or spell you back unless they have an arc node to run in.

Also, while Archers tend to play the centre, Striders are crazy fast and can actually flank. a 6" advance deploy and 14" run puts you 20" up the table first turn. Turn two you are shooting them up and by turn three are starting to pick up off those key support models in the back field.

[ShepMachine]

Ah yes. I am a cygnar player who is a journeyman legion player. So i knew all of the ins and outs of the archers versus striders comparisons well before I put a warlock on the table.

I play with striders... that is how I do it. It is perfectly valid for someone else to do it a different way.

The archer/long gunner haters often cite how hard it is to get dual shot. Yet I find myself forfeiting my movement to aim in at least one turn of nearly every game I play with striders. It isn't always with a full unit, but as long as my striders didn't become my front lines for some reason, there will be moments in the mid-game where the things that need to die rest comfortably within 12". That is not hope fueled theory-machine, it is fact.

The archer/long gunner apologists often discount the defensive increases of striders/rangers, and their maneuverability increase as well. Math will always conclude that the archer/long gunner unit is going to put out more raw damage on every single target that it can gain LOS to that isn't stealthed. But the difference between 15/11 and 13/11 is totally massive, it is massive to the point that even after being charged, striders will have some models still alive and sticking enemy models to them, whereas the archers just fall over. Stealth/prowl can't be overlooked as well, although do be careful to overvalue it. And of course pathfinder. Pathfinder not only helps aggressive movement, but so often it is a defensive boon, pathfinder lets you live in forests, which give you concealment, and give you an escape route should you decide you aren't reay to lose your unit yet.

Two people have already given the advice that I am about to give, and it is advice I live by...

Proxy some archers and play with them. Also play with striders. Depending on your playstyle, your local meta and your warlock, archers might be the right fit for you. You'll eventually see why people go with striders (myself included). But you will also come away knowing what the archers are better at, namely, being much more dangerous offensively. No one here owns stock in striders, in fact most of us would love to hear some great archer applications. I will eventually run a plylith theme force. So go for it and report back

[Ector]

The archer/long gunner haters often cite how hard it is to get dual shot. Yet I find myself forfeiting my movement to aim in at least one turn of nearly every game I play with striders. It isn't always with a full unit, but as long as my striders didn't become my front lines for some reason, there will be moments in the mid-game where the things that need to die rest comfortably within 12". That is not hope fueled theory-machine, it is fact.

My theory-machine says absolutely the same thing Actually, being accustomed to play 8" Winterguards, 12" Archers seems a very good range... though long-gunners have even better.

And of course pathfinder. Pathfinder not only helps aggressive movement, but so often it is a defensive boon, pathfinder lets you live in forests, which give you concealment, and give you an escape route should you decide you aren't reay to lose your unit yet.

But Archers have Pathfinder too!

Proxy some archers and play with them. Also play with striders. Depending on your playstyle, your local meta and your warlock, archers might be the right fit for you. You'll eventually see why people go with striders (myself included). But you will also come away knowing what the archers are better at, namely, being much more dangerous offensively. No one here owns stock in striders, in fact most of us would love to hear some great archer applications. I will eventually run a plylith theme force. So go for it and report back

That may be a good idea.

[Northern Ronin]

Striders are faster, more accurate, more survivable to anything, less vulnerable to AoEs, and have Hunter and reform to keep them safer, and are cheaper. They can maintain an aggressive position without needlessly endangering themselves. Archers can only play defensively to make use of their abilities, tend to cluster to get Suppressive fire where you want (aside from craming more bodies in an area 4 inches smaller) making them highly vulnerable to AoEs, with an armor that ensures anyone caught in it dies. Their aiming range is far too short to count on, and even 2 combining still aren't a great RAT, though the Re-Rolls makes it fine, you still really only get 10 Shots even if they -all- aim, if half the unit must move, even full health, you're best expected is 10 pow 12 Rat 7's, and 5 Power 10, Rat 5's without rerolls. A single AoE falling in the wrong spot will cut out 2-3 shots.

[Lanz]

Striders aren't strictly "better" than archers, in that Archers, as mentioned, can throw down a massive quantity of attacks and support gunline-style play better. They also provide more bodies for the points. That said, usually Striders are going to be more versatile and useful. Every game I've played with striders, they were doing interesting things beyond just shooting, and their mobility has been critical. The roles I want them for cannot be performed by archers. If I wanted a fire-support line, archers would be better, but rarely do I need something like that.

[Helvetica]

I must admit, They don't look appealing for 9pts. But i'm slowly getting what they are about. Sprint them behind the enemy lines and watch the confusion. def 15 is hellishly good with stealth too, my opponent had to turn around 2 melee units to go try and kill them. last 2 games they always seem to get to hit the caster (never kill them tho..)

[Bambamdan]

Just a quick point. Deathstalkers. Well worth fielding on their own, they add even more movement shenanigans to nearby striders. Not bad for a solo you were going to take anyway.

[callmeHK]

I wasn't sure putting them in my lists at first, but after I tried them, they were put in nearly every list I build. Hunter is terrific. They do a great job putting pressure on the enemy by being mobile hit and run models who kill support in droves.

[shaner]

Well, this is the third time I've followed this thread and I think it is a good argument. However, I'm going to toss this out there. 90% of Legion players take Striders over Archers...and typically use them in the exact SAME way/tactic. Well, most opponents (good ones) will come to expect it. Throwing a unit of archers in there from time to time, with a different tactic...say area denial...might throw a ninja opponent off balance. IMHO, I've used archers a few times to great effect (Caster Kill, Beast Crippling, etc). They CAN be useful... I dunno, I guess I prefer to mix it up when I play...that's ADHD for ya! If you buy a unit of them, use em, and don't like them, just use them as Striders (second unit??) in future games.

[Beckman]

Striders+UA + Deathstalkers are what I would bring.

Archers are too frail against enemy return fire and don't influence the game fast enough.

If you're getting double-shot, enemies will have had the chance to shoot you first. Striders win out against enemy shooting because of stealth and because they can spread out more.

Advanced deployment and Hunter is really, really, good. If they run up a flank, they are controlling the game QUICK, while being difficult to remove.

I wouldn't bring both, because in a non-elylyth list you're making your list too one-dimensional and vulnerable to lists which don't care about shooting (Bloody B comes to mind). If you're running an eLylyth list, running both would be cutting into points that you could use for beasts (which benefit from an additional shot on feat turn) or Raptors, which are just unfair.

[Ector]

I think I should reveal my current attitude to Striders and Archers. I am a Khadoran player, and Khador isn't very good at range. But we still have Widowmakers, WG Rifle Corps and WGI. Striders are somewhat similar to Widowmakers: a small elite unit for the special tasks. Deathstrider is VERY similar to WM Marksman; they even provide the same Leadership ability to their troops. Yes, Striders can have 8 models with UA, while Widowmakers have only 4, and the FA of Striders is greater than 1, but, as I've said, Khador isn't a shooty faction. Anyway, Widowmakers aren't much worse than Striders (roughly), and they even cost roughly the same (1 point per model). The closest Khadoran analogue of Archers are WG Rifle Corps, and they're MUCH worse. That makes me jealous for a good large ranged unit capable of some serious shooting.

I've discovered that Archers simply lack a good support. Only Lylyth (both versions) has some real synergy with them. There are great unit/solo synergies though: Blackfrost Shard can lower enemy DEF with Ice Cages and, most importantly, add +2 to each shot with Kiss of Lyliss. That would allow Archers to seriously damage even heavies (two-man CRA provides POW 14). Unfortunately, the Shard isn't as good as Black 13 or even Great Bears... Sorceress & Hellion provides a great synergy with Archers with Blight Storm: now you can damage even the Khadoran jacks! 24 shots from the Archers will cripple even the Behemoth. This is also very dangerous against low-DEF and high-ARM casters/warlocks: eThagrosh can be killed in one turn unless he has Excessive Healing from Typhon.
eLylyth theme force is absolutely amazing. You get extra Strider UA (that's 3 points + breaking FA), extra Deathstalkers, and even forests! It's a pity that Legion doesn't have such goodness for the Archers. pLylyth's theme force is just a pale shadow.

[Necra-Chi]

Epic Vayl and Rhyas have access to occultation and that can turn archers plus ua into superstriders. Its not a bad combo. You might also use them as area denial in combination with scather effects and eruption. But usually striders are a better way to go. Actually i go to deathstalkers and anyssa first then consider striders if i have more points. Deathstalkers are the widowmakers of legion. Not striders. Except they are even better than widowmakers for the same cost.

[Beckman]

Yeah, if you're dead-set on using archers... Take them in a list with occultation. I agree with Necra-Chi.. That makes them less suck-tastic when your enemy can't shoot them, and are spread out some to avoid AOEs.

[Lanz]

Just a quick point. Deathstalkers. Well worth fielding on their own, they add even more movement shenanigans to nearby striders. Not bad for a solo you were going to take anyway.

I'm not a huge fan of Deathstalkers, actually. For 4 points, they are a great anti-infantry set for a great price, but unlike the strider unit, Anti-Infantry is pretty much all they do. Striders at least have CRA to take tougher targets down if they have nothing to shoot at, and can use reform to jam things up.

In half the games I've played since I got my striders, they didn't have any idea targets to shoot at, either due to stealth, or lack of infantry, so on several occations I've had them move up to practically point-blank range to CRA something like a 'jack, then they reform and move one model into melee, while the others space out, preventing the warjack/warbeast from firing, and forcing it to spend its activation killing a single strider since the others aren't in melee range, and there's no spaces to trample. Even though the striders won't likely destroy the warjack/warbeast under these conditions, they'll at least tie it up for a few rounds and cause some damage. Deathstalkers don't have that versatility.

Then again, for 4 points, you could take them and still have room to take something else nice instead.

[Szary]

In half the games I've played since I got my striders, they didn't have any idea targets to shoot at, either due to stealth, or lack of infantry, so on several occations I've had them move up to practically point-blank range to CRA something like a 'jack, then they reform and move one model into melee, while the others space out, preventing the warjack/warbeast from firing, and forcing it to spend its activation killing a single strider since the others aren't in melee range, and there's no spaces to trample. Even though the striders won't likely destroy the warjack/warbeast under these conditions, they'll at least tie it up for a few rounds and cause some damage. Deathstalkers don't have that versatility.

I often use that kind of move with striders. Also if annoyin solo is 10'' away from strider one can move shoot and use reform to engage this model if it survive the shooting while other striders move back. Solo or trooper without free strike immunity is now blocked by def 15 model. Works great against ranged models for example Deathstalkers :P.

As for Deathstalkers I take them only when I cannot afford Striders :P.

[Necra-Chi]

I also like to watch my opponents die a liitle inside when they ask what strider DEF is whn they've finally got something int melee with them. You don't get that with archers.

The only non-ideal targets for deathstalkers are heavy infantry and stealth or things in cover with good DEF. i shoot at heavies regularly with deathstalkers because they can choose the column their damage is applied to and that can take out systems. I've even finished off warcasters and tough warlocks with them. Tough infantry really screw with deathstalkers though.

[Lanz]

Well, in talking 'ideal' I don't think I could stomach 4 points worth of solo that will only cause 2 damage per round if the the enemy is purely hard targets. At least the Striders have a nice 8-man CRA at POW18, which will pull down nearly a whole column on average 'jack/beast armor, and still peck away at higher armor too.

Then again, if I'm taking them with Thagrosh they can pull the back-up job that every other sometimes-useful model fills: Sacrificial Eruption of Ash generator.

[Necra-Chi]

I've yet to see an army without more than two points of stuff that's perfect for a deathstalker to hunt. It is very rare that even multiple deathstalkers don't at least pay for themselves. Then if they really do run out of targets they've done a great job and you are probably winning.

[Northern Ronin]

I've yet to see an army without more than two points of stuff that's perfect for a deathstalker to hunt. It is very rare that even multiple deathstalkers don't at least pay for themselves. Then if they really do run out of targets they've done a great job and you are probably winning.

The only time they won't really pay for themselves (Save player error), is a bad roll of 2-4 leaving them twisting in the wind and easy prey, or should tough happen and steal of of shots and swift hunter like a miss. Or against Stealth spam.

[PG_EricTehRed]

The only time they won't really pay for themselves (Save player error), is a bad roll of 2-4 leaving them twisting in the wind and easy prey, or should tough happen and steal of of shots and swift hunter like a miss. Or against Stealth spam.

Very true. Luckily we have lots of warlocks with access to spells that can help mitigate these issues. I'm new to Legion, but Striders are hands down the direction I'm going in first as far as infantry is concerned. I put alot of stock in toolboxy units and these guys have got it in spades. The only thing I worry about is ensuring the hit. Accurate they are, but not accurate enough to be worry-free.

[Northern Ronin]

Very true. Luckily we have lots of warlocks with access to spells that can help mitigate these issues. I'm new to Legion, but Striders are hands down the direction I'm going in first as far as infantry is concerned. I put alot of stock in toolboxy units and these guys have got it in spades. The only thing I worry about is ensuring the hit. Accurate they are, but not accurate enough to be worry-free.

By lots do you mean two, one of which often ends up on a beast to keep it from charging your heavies pre or post feat, and the other struggles extremely hard to hit with the spell.

[PG_EricTehRed]

Touche.


We do have lots of tricks, as a faction, that , though they may not help ensure the hit, can certainly help us recover after a wiffed strider activation. I recall that Bethayne also has Eruption of Spines, and Saeryn's Blight Bringer can be pretty gnarly too. Then there's all the non-warlock stuff that shreds infantry. Because wiffed activations are just a part of the game, I like to see more than one option for dealing with a specific question in a list. That being said, I like Striders because they're super mobile, pretty hard to hit, and also offer a pretty good solution to infantry, but not one that's so good to be infallible and in no need to a plan B. I need more practice with them, but I see them as a really speedy, offensive force, that can tarpit if there's nothing left to shoot. Which might sound like a waste of their resources, but it comes down to the specific game.

But as I stated previously, I'm a newbie to the faction, so alot of what I'm saying is based on theory and past experience against Legion.

[Sinsation]

This seems recent enough to not be a necro
On the topic of archers, particularly vs. striders, what about archers without the UA? Or are they not worth fielding without the UA ever?

[Hussar]

If you for some reason see the use of a 4" Supressing Fire AOE in your batle plan.
I'd say that much like with the Striders the UA adds so much that that it's hard to pass up.

[Vail_Nocturne]

Archers do a good job at Control Point denial...at least for one turn.

[Ubergeek80]

So this might be a bit of thread necromancy. By a bit I mean a lot. But I just started trolling these forums. But these two quotes caught my eye as not being accurate, which could be why the strider choice wasn't obvious. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's not true - Archers have higher effective RAT for CRAs due to Combined Arms.

Both units have have CRA and striders have the higher RAT. Unless you're forfeiting movement to aim striders win

But Archers have Pathfinder.

That is news to me. How do archers get pathfinder?