I am missing something big, right ? Harbinger

[Garth]

On the main forum some people said that Harby would be one of our best tournament warlocks. Our big based def 14, arm 14 flying girl with nerfed Martyrdom should be one of the best ? I really seem to have missed something important here.
I have read to the thread "how to keep Harbinger alive". Well a devout are 5 points, Vengers would be 7 points and so on. You pay points just to not auto-loose on turn 2.

Casters like E-Caine just need 1 turn of LoS and the game is over. And she doesn't have a build-in assasinationstrategy. And her Martyrdom now will onhly help her support.
But if you play too much support, then you spend points on defene for her (Devout and / or Vengers) and on support that doesn't fight for you.

Every time I build a list with 35 points I don't see any hitting power in the list .

All she does is have a good (not really good) Feat, +2" charge for everyone (no love for Idrians and other shooty models), extra melee attack rolls in 6" (!) and much weaker Rebuke.

If you play her with an Arc Node you waste even more points. You can only cast Fear of God once and perhaps Guided Hand.
If you take the Hierophant you have to get in 12" to you fear of God target.


So how should a 35 Harby list look like ? There always is so much missing..

[bamburn]

I am with you Garth, I don't see her as being that ubber. I think she is good, but I think most people that gush over how good she is more remembering how good she was in MKI.
Here is hoping this thread will unveil the true power that is the Harbinger!

[Poet]

Army: Harbinger SR 35
Type: Skirmish (1 caster, 35pts)
Points: 35
Harbinger of Menoth (*5pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
* Hierophant (2pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)
The Covenant of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

This is the list I have been playing lately, or same with rhupert instead of saxon. And sometimes redeemer + paladin instead of vanquisher.
with 20" control, you shouldn't ever be close enough for anyone to assassinate you.
You have a long leash, use it to keep your distance.

[IRSMARTLIKEROCK]

The problem with that is a Defender + Gunmage UA as Jack Marshall + Arlan. So free snipe, 1 focus from power boost, and 1 from Jack Marshall = 20" range gun that is at worst if she spent no focus dice -9. Also if the caster has snipe and another Defender, it'll only be a matter of time before you whittle her down.

Don't get me wrong I've won tournaments with the Harbinger, but her biggest flaws are large base, terrible base statline, and yes she can channel now but who's really going to spend 6 points for an arc node just for one spell. She is what I've seen as one of the most legitimate arguments for a Guardian. With Infuse + Powerful Charge + Crusader's Call + Guided Hand and 2 focus, you have a Mat 10, 4d6 ( super high chance of critting ), P+S 19, with an 11" threat range. Though if you are doing that it's a huge focus investment so it better be worth it.

[ozmo]

Her feat is fantastic in scenario play. If you go first and run, opponent has hard time leaving deployment zone without taking pow 14 hits. I really like her with the Avatar's gaze who further limits movement options and forces most movement to take the feat hit.

On a typical turn I cast "rebuke" once followed by crusaders call. I can then get the charge with TFG (13" range) and at times KE and remove one units ability to countercharge. She can then camp the rest of her focus or feed a few jacks.
When push comes to shove I've cleared a charge lane and sent her in for 6 autohitting pow 12 boosted attacks.

She certainly does not work as the same "god" mode she had before and is very squishy. I still have a good time running her and have less frustrated opponents.

[whats82]

Block LoS with 2~3 large jacks ?

[ozmo]

Cheapest way to screen here is either min Vengers unit or Min Cleansers+ Gorman for two templates, both coming in at 7 points.

Btw, she is not my first choice against the Swan or long range shooters such as Mercs.
Against majority of hordes and cryx she does well (straight dice of feat against bonejacks is great).

[Skyydragonn]

i agree that her worst enemies are range heavy armies, but she's not completely vulnerable to them either. Having the largest control range in teh game gives harby a lot of room to maneuver. plus anything that gets in range to shoot her (even with 20"snipe range) is going to be in range for counter charges. Cygnar hs the best chance of hitting her from range but doing so should be leaving them exposed to the rest of your army.

[Soulblighter]

Harbinger is a great caster no doubt but hardly one of the best warcasters in the game. Shes no eHaley or eSkarre. I think Harbinger is a good choice for competitive play but honestly dont think it matters much what warcaster we use because Protectorate's main strengths are in its warjacks, jack support, and cheap infantry which are really independent of the warcaster. I think any Protectorate warcaster can be competitive in MK2 except for nFeora. Shes terrible in MK2.

[Poet]

....except for nFeora. Shes terrible in MK2.

Really? And I was thinking HR was the only terrible caster.

[Soulblighter]

True the HR is pretty bad too. Although his feat at least gives you a chance to pull off an assassination. nFeora is just useless in MK2. Reznik is better than her in every way.

[bamburn]

nFeora is just useless in MK2. Reznik is better than her in every way.

I disagre with that. I think Reznik may at best be a smidge better, but I think some of the things that nFeora has going for her are:
-+1 Def and small base, which make her a lot more survivable.
-Assuming having cast EoD and got off the charge and used all focus to buy additional attacks, nFeora will do more damage than Reznik (an extra attack with her 6 attacks only doing 1 less P&S per atatck over Rezniks).
-He only has her buy .5 inches in threat range.
-Her feat is worlds more powerful vs. Warmachine than his.

I do like Reznik's jack support better, but there are definitely times when I would prefer Feora to reznik.

[PG_Voice_of_Menoth]

-+1 Def and small base, which make her a lot more survivable

Yes it's true but what's the big point of being more survivable ? It doesn't matter when you are being hit by jack/beast. Just takes one more hit in some cases, in others it is irrelevant.

-Assuming having cast EoD and got off the charge and used all focus to buy additional attacks, nFeora will do more damage than Reznik

And Rezik has 1 point higher Mat. Still this is also not important 'cause if you have charged enemy caster with Feora/Reznik you won in 99%.

Her feat is worlds more powerful vs. Warmachine than his.

True if your opponent has lot's of infantry. If he has many jacks or mixed force than Rezniks feat is waaay better.

On topic :

Harbinger of Menoth (*5pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
* Hierophant (2pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)
The Covenant of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

This list is really good. I just would drop Saxon and take another vassal. Also Bastions could be switched with Reckoner but this is a matter of taste. Bastions rock with her as well as 12-inch-charging Avatar.

[Razhem]

Lets not forget that any jack heavy army will field pain in the *** solos and support units, the feat is a killer there.

[jandrese]

Lets not forget that any jack heavy army will field pain in the *** solos and support units, the feat is a killer there.

Well, it's a killer 2/3 of the time. Although slightly poor damage rolls will leave a lot of 2 point 5-wound solos alive as well, at least for one turn.

[Soulblighter]

The main difference between Reznik and Feora is that Reznik can facilitate his warjacks to assassinate the enemy warcaster. Feora HAS to do it herself. Thats why Reznik is so much better than her. Feora doesnt really have different options available to her and shes pigeonholed into one vector of attack. Shes extremely predictable and easily countered and that makes for a poor competitive caster.

The Harbinger is a good competitive caster because she has a lot of options available to her and can often play out two options because of her 10 focus.

[Moonblade]

Army: Harbinger SR 35
Type: Skirmish (1 caster, 35pts)
Points: 35
Harbinger of Menoth (*5pts)
* Vanquisher (8pts)
* Hierophant (2pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios (3pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)
The Covenant of Menoth (2pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)

A nice one. I'm fielding Vilmon and Two Paladins in place of Saxon, Covenant, and Eiryss in casual games. They actually do quite well holding objectives. Don't you field a Devout?

[Poet]

A nice one. I'm fielding Vilmon and Two Paladins in place of Saxon, Covenant, and Eiryss in casual games. They actually do quite well holding objectives. Don't you field a Devout?

No, but sometimes I fit gorman in there for protection.
same list with redeemer and gorman instead of vanq is what I plan on fielding in an upcoming SR 35.

Second caster will be eFeora, mainly for killbox (harbinger can't hang back), but also if I see an assassination list I can't handle.

[mike07]

Poet- I am curious about your list. Do you ever find yourself martyring Bastions?

And are you usually just camping lots of focus?

[Moonblade]

My biggest problem with Harbinger list is that I don't have heavy hitters other than the Avatar. The Vanquisher is a better 'jack than the Redeemer therefore in this case, because he packs versatility instead of just AOEs.

About Martyrdom, I still think it's a great ability to have. Having the versatility of choice of keeping something alive has made my games colorful. Sometimes I do it just to keep a Paladin alive on a spot to deny charges, sometimes to keep something engaged, sometimes to waste opponent's attacks.

[Necra-Chi]

I think the powerful thing about Harbinger is how she closes the denial loop. Just fielding her with a typical warjacks wall, and then adding:

Speeding up the charge
Martyring the support models when someone eventually does the work to break through and get them
Efficiently cleaning flanking models off your warjacks and support with cataclysm.
A feat that is great in scenarios
Purification to get rid of any hindrances.
Fear of God to shut down charges on the biggest infantry threat.

[Poet]

Poet- I am curious about your list. Do you ever find yourself martyring Bastions?

And are you usually just camping lots of focus?

Sometimes, but its not the game plan.

One game, I had a building on my side of the board, so I could just sit behind it and martyr all day.

Another game (or mayeb it was the same game?) I think Soylent watched, I charged forward with Harby, which allowed my bastions to leave melee and kind of ignore the free strikes ont he way for the caster kill.

[chrisBatson]

Hug a piece of terrain, put a smoke cloud in front of her Gorman. No one will ever have LOS to her.

[Ganmeyde]

Her feat is fantastic in scenario play. If you go first and run, opponent has hard time leaving deployment zone without taking pow 14 hits. I really like her with the Avatar's gaze who further limits movement options and forces most movement to take the feat hit.

On a typical turn I cast "rebuke" once followed by crusaders call. I can then get the charge with TFG (13" range) and at times KE and remove one units ability to countercharge. She can then camp the rest of her focus or feed a few jacks.
When push comes to shove I've cleared a charge lane and sent her in for 6 autohitting pow 12 boosted attacks.

She certainly does not work as the same "god" mode she had before and is very squishy. I still have a good time running her and have less frustrated opponents.

You can't run and pop your feat in the same turn.

[MoDination]

You can charge and do it though, which should still reach 1" into the deployment directly in front of her

[Nargacuga]

A min unit of cleansers work great with their cloud (and they cost the same as a Devout does). Just put grunt in front of the unit and have the rest drop the 4" on it. the larger template blocks LOS much better than Gorman's does, it does a pow 12 to anything stupid enough to enter it, and unlike Gorman, the cleansers can be easily kept alive with Martyrdom.

[unclebiggins]

As a player who found matchups against the Harby incredibly frustrating with Trolls in MKii, I personally consider her to be in the top 3 most difficult casters from Menoth with my faction.

That said, I can see how some more cygnar inclined opponents would have a field day with her. ECaine would probaly have not trouble, and so would Brisbane and EHaley.

As previously mentioned, Harby seals tight the the support structure of menoth. Some armies can only manage a few accurate attacks on the opponents solos and harbinger can negate those attacks quite soundly with a few martyrdoms. Palidans going into both stances and sitting on an objective with Martyrdom are nigh on impossible to remove from the table and will win you games.

I find it laughable that people dont think she has an assasination strategy when I have three times seen her pull off one of the most ridiculous spell assasinations I have ever seen. In one game where she was fighting against ECaine, she charged one of her own models to move 9" closer after getting the hierophant and pulling focus off the wrack and then blasting Caine with two boosted damage rolls from her autohitting catacylsm which was POW 13 at the time. Caines DEF of 19 in the woods meant nothing.

The same opponent has done it to me with eMadrak charging and using the spell to not only seriously wound my warlock, but the powerful blast from the AOE 5 damage killed off surrounding models to open a charge lane to my caster with Vengers.

Harbies 20" control area and her great spell list gives her the ability to lead with a powerful initial punch. Guided Hand on a unit of Exemplar and Vengers gives you virtually auto-hitting melee attacks for minimal investment. Call to War lets your melee units out threat the enemy. Purificaiton strips enemies defences and nobody denies the power of Fear of God. That spell is nuts. It can virtually cripple a 10PC unit for just one focus each turn.

Harby has alot of strengths that only fail to compensate some of her massive glaring weaknesses (large base, lowish ARM and DEF and tends to have suffered damage throughout the game) if your opponent doesnt bring casters that are adept at exploiting it. She is the master of attrition and leads her army very well into battle. If your local tourney features alot of ECaine though I would leave her behind and stick with pKreoss who is easier to hide and can cut through him with pop and drop.

Oh dont get me started on Awe, this ability murderates melee armies by bumping your modest DEF 12 exemplars into what equivilates to DEF 14. I hate this ability so much it is not funny.

[Ganmeyde]

As a player who found matchups against the Harby incredibly frustrating with Trolls in MKii, I personally consider her to be in the top 3 most difficult casters from Menoth with my faction.

That said, I can see how some more cygnar inclined opponents would have a field day with her. ECaine would probaly have not trouble, and so would Brisbane and EHaley.

As previously mentioned, Harby seals tight the the support structure of menoth. Some armies can only manage a few accurate attacks on the opponents solos and harbinger can negate those attacks quite soundly with a few martyrdoms. Palidans going into both stances and sitting on an objective with Martyrdom are nigh on impossible to remove from the table and will win you games.

I find it laughable that people dont think she has an assasination strategy when I have three times seen her pull off one of the most ridiculous spell assasinations I have ever seen. In one game where she was fighting against ECaine, she charged one of her own models to move 9" closer after getting the hierophant and pulling focus off the wrack and then blasting Caine with two boosted damage rolls from her autohitting catacylsm which was POW 13 at the time. Caines DEF of 19 in the woods meant nothing.

The same opponent has done it to me with eMadrak charging and using the spell to not only seriously wound my warlock, but the powerful blast from the AOE 5 damage killed off surrounding models to open a charge lane to my caster with Vengers.

Harbies 20" control area and her great spell list gives her the ability to lead with a powerful initial punch. Guided Hand on a unit of Exemplar and Vengers gives you virtually auto-hitting melee attacks for minimal investment. Call to War lets your melee units out threat the enemy. Purificaiton strips enemies defences and nobody denies the power of Fear of God. That spell is nuts. It can virtually cripple a 10PC unit for just one focus each turn.

Harby has alot of strengths that only fail to compensate some of her massive glaring weaknesses (large base, lowish ARM and DEF and tends to have suffered damage throughout the game) if your opponent doesnt bring casters that are adept at exploiting it. She is the master of attrition and leads her army very well into battle. If your local tourney features alot of ECaine though I would leave her behind and stick with pKreoss who is easier to hide and can cut through him with pop and drop.

Oh dont get me started on Awe, this ability murderates melee armies by bumping your modest DEF 12 exemplars into what equivilates to DEF 14. I hate this ability so much it is not funny.

Trolls... complaining about attrition?

Does not compute! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

[jandrese]

I think it just blew his mind that someone would play the attrition game against trolls, and win.

[Skyydragonn]

I think it just blew his mind that someone would play the attrition game against trolls, and win.

this (10chars)

[Loveless]

I think it just blew his mind that someone would play the attrition game against trolls, and win.

The Protectorate: Yeah, we can do that.

also

The Protectorate: Anything you can do, we can do better...with fire.

[jandrese]

I think it's more of:

Attrition? I was playing the attrition game from before your poncy life spirals were even invented. Don't try to out-attrition me, you young whippersnapper.