Create a Karax UA!

[maynardstardust]

I think that it is inevitable that the Karax get a UA so lets brainstorm on what would be good to see for a passive ability (or abilities) and a once per game feat.

Granted: Gang

Once per game: Reform and Shield wall

[Sanctjud]

Simple Set Defence would go a long way.
Maybe brace for impact if affected by shieldwall.

[maynardstardust]

Hitting things seems to be their main problem. Also I think that it should be 2 point cost.

[Falkman]

Set defense would be nice, but they certainly need something offensive as well. I like gang a lot, but gang on a reach unit seems really powerful.

[PG_Deathraven]

I'd rather see something like Iron Zeal or Defensive Formation than set defense. Their def is already bad, better to buff something they are good for (ARM) than try and bring their DEF up to par.

[newsun]

Defensive Strike that they can CMA with.

[Phuzzworthy]

Pike Wall (Order)- Affected models must forfeit either their movement or action. For one round when an enemy model enters the melee range of one or more models in this unit, it takes a POW 10 damage roll.
Tactics: Phalanx-While B2B with a model in this unit, friendly models gain +2 DEF.
Turtle- Once per game, models in this unit, in formation, and B2B with another model in this unit may not be targeted by Ranged attacks. Turtle lasts for one round.
(on Standard Bearer) Ancestral Ward- While this model is in formation, models in this unit gain Aegis.

[Jokergod]

Pike Wall (Order)- Affected models must forfeit either their movement or action. For one round when an enemy model enters the melee range of one or more models in this unit, it takes a POW 10 damage roll.
Tactics: Phalanx-While B2B with a model in this unit, friendly models gain +2 DEF.
Turtle- Once per game, models in this unit, in formation, and B2B with another model in this unit may not be targeted by Ranged attacks. Turtle lasts for one round.
(on Standard Bearer) Ancestral Ward- While this model is in formation, models in this unit gain Aegis.

oddly that idea has no chance of happening, simply because it would make people use there Karax. Or the UA would be 4 points and no one would use them.


I would be happy with something like Set defence and Iorn Zeal. Just something to bring them up and inline with other small based tarpit units. But if I could pick anything I would get a UA that gives them tough, can't be knocked down, makes them undead weapon masters and if the UA kills a model you can replace a Karax O.o for 2 points...

~Joker

[Phuzzworthy]

oddly that idea has no chance of happening, simply because it would make people use there Karax. Or the UA would be 4 points and no one would use them.

~Joker

I don't know have you seen the winterguard ua!!
But seriously, what would bring it in line in your oppinion, drop phalanx? Change Phalanx to set defense? Make Pike Wall forfeit action always? I thought about this for a bit, and this flavor of ua is really appealing to me.

[Rynth]

Character UA and House X Extoller Unit attachment 3 points

Character UA
+1 MAT CMD 10
Tactics: Fearless
Tactics: Immunity: Fire
Granted: Self Sacrifice
Mini-Feat: Enemy models cannot draw LOS through or move through models in this unit for 1 round.

House X Extoller
Extoller stats -1 SPD, +1 ARM
Eye Attack
Spray 8 Pow 10 Magical. Only targets enemies.
Gunfighter
No Shield: This model gains no ARM bonus due to the Shield Wall order.
Soul collection from models in this unit in formation. Can collect souls from models who die because of Self-Sacrifice. Max 3
Can spend souls to boost
Magic Ability[6]:
*action Zephyr
*action Ancestor's Blessing- Weapons of models in this unit gain Blessed for 1 turn

[hamsandwich50]

crazy idea Ancestral guardian UA, has a small base and one less MAT P+S than a normal ancestral guardian. Has ghost shield, soul collection but five instead of three, and the unit can spend soul tokens to boost attack and damage rolls and he collects the souls of members in the unit (in formation) even if there is another eligible model closer. Then a minifeat that lets the whole unit benefit from ghost shield for souls on the UA.

The idea is that it would help make Karax more viable and it would also help immortals since the UA would be an ancestral guardian.

[Galen of the Faith]

Flank -(Friendly Faction Warbeast) could fix a lot of there problems.

And how about a new weird defensive ability like "grants cover from ranged attacks to models behind them" or "friendly non-karax models in btb gain cover"

Off Topic - I want the immortals UA to give Combined Melee.

[gaminguy]

Tactics: Immunity Fire and Immunity Corrosion while in shield wall
Mini-feat: Powerful Charge

No standard bearer, one wound, one point, FA-2.

Off Topic - I want the immortals UA to give Combined Melee.

I want the Immortals errata-ed to SPD 5 and Resonance to grant AGs souls when Immortals die. I also want the Siege Animantarax dropped to 7 points and classified as Heavy Cav, Enrage to get the +2 speed back, Diminish on the Gladiator, Tracker on the Cannoneer (or Flesh of Clay on the Cannoneer and Tracker on the Savage), the Sentry to get MAT 6, PMakeda to get Gates of Death (EMak's first field test feat), the 12/23/09 version of EMorg, Hollow reworded as a RNG SELF upkeep that grants Reclaim, Union to be an native ability of the AG rather than a special on Zaal, Zaal to swap Last Stand for an upkeep that just grants faction model/unit +2 MAT and +2 STR without killing them, and pie. Mmmmm, pie.

[Sygerrik]

No Granted. I hate Granted. Tactics: Set Defense and Tactics: Gang would do a lot for them, as would Tactics: Reform. Or a Defensive Formation minifeat. Also, they should have a * action that gives them the Steelhead Halby's old Forfend.

[maynardstardust]

Tactics: Immunity Fire and Immunity Corrosion while in shield wall

I want the Immortals errata-ed to SPD 5 and Resonance to grant AGs souls when Immortals die. I also want the Siege Animantarax dropped to 7 points and classified as Heavy Cav, Enrage to get the +2 speed back, Diminish on the Gladiator, Tracker on the Cannoneer (or Flesh of Clay on the Cannoneer and Tracker on the Savage), the Sentry to get MAT 6, PMakeda to get Gates of Death (EMak's first field test feat), the 12/23/09 version of EMorg, Hollow reworded as a RNG SELF upkeep that grants Reclaim, Union to be an native ability of the AG rather than a special on Zaal, Zaal to swap Last Stand for an upkeep that just grants faction model/unit +2 MAT and +2 STR without killing them, and pie. Mmmmm, pie.

Wow, you want a LOT, did my girlfriend make this post?

[aquenaton]

defensive line?
powerfull charge sounds good

[gaminguy]

Wow, you want a LOT, did my girlfriend make this post?

...I'm not quite sure which thing to respond to there. I think I shall choose not to rise to the bait.

The things I want there are (mostly) lateral shifts; different ways of having the same capabilities that look more balanced to me:

• SPD 5 is the balance between how fast the Immortals are at base and how fast they are with the boost. The different Resonance would be there just so Immortals and AGs wouldn't be an either/or prospect; it would be a shame to forbid the construct theme.
• The BE. I mean seriously. Even just picking up Heavy Cav would make it better, and it would make a lot of sense since there are Skorne riding on it.
• Enrage getting the +2 SPD back and swapping Rush for Tracker balance each other. We lose being able to boost the threat range of a beast that's going to shoot, but we pick up single target Pathfinder that isn't beast only and 360 degree vision. It also leaves only one real auto-include in the faction (the Beast Handlers) because Tracker wouldn't be crazy good the way Rush is.
• Diminish makes more sense on a melee beast, it would put the Gladiator up to ARM 21 when you move it into enemy charge range. I think the point values would make more sense with that Gladiator and the Cannoneer with Tracker.
• The Sentry ... really I'm OK with it as is. MAT 6 or Sustained Attack on the spear would be nice though, and I'd happily give up the POW on the shield for it.
• Gates of Death does, on average, the same thing as Walking Death. It's just more reliable.
• Hollow is a bit of a step up, I just really dislike having a Warlock who's major mechanic can be shut down by a 3-point solo that turns up so much. It drops the defensive benefits of undead and tough as well, so it's not a pure buff.
• EMorg. I don't feel bad at all about wanting him to be decent. The version before that one would have been decent as well, it was certainly more interesting than the one we got.
• Union. I don't like that the AG is priced for how good it is under Zaal, I think that switch would balance it, and it doesn't change how Zaal plays at all.
• Zaal does a particular thing, I just don't like how fast he can destroy his own army and he doesn't offer it much else. I'd give up some buffing prowess for not destroying more of my army than my opponent does a lot of games. (I'd actually like Transference on him instead, but I think that would be a good ability for EZaal when we get him.)
• There's never a bad time for pie.

I don't think any of those changes actually make the faction stronger. I also don't expect to get any of them, I just start thinking about this stuff whenever I get into "what UA ablilities would work well for unit A".

Edit: And I didn't touch Karn because I have no clue how to fix him without a complete re-write. I don't think there's anything wrong with the heavy-warbeast-ninja-assassin concept, I just don't think you can balance it in a faction built around SPD 4 Titans.

[maynardstardust]

...I'm not quite sure which thing to respond to there. I think I shall choose not to rise to the bait.

Well the point was that you both want a lot of stuff. Thought that was clear, sorry.



The Karax UA is something that will happen. Privateer press has been very stingy on making any changes to models in errata like they used to so I would not hold my breath for any of those other changes, but there are some interesting ideas.

[gaminguy]

No offense taken. Forums aren't the best place for nuanced communication, your turn of phrase could have been taken as deliberately provocative but I didn't think you actually meant it that way.

[DeathnGlory]

MAybe something simple for the Karax UA -
Tactics: Advance Deploy
Granted: Tough

I am keener to get a UA for Immortals as I love their models. Maybe a mini-feat that allows them to go incorporeal once per game (like the Blood Witch Hag) and tactics Brutal Charge (+2 Dam) for the unit and any AG models within CMD range. It would reinforce the need for the two to be together in a list but would do lot for both models.

[Kenton]

I'm with the "Set Defense" and "Iron Zeal" crowd, although it's a bit dull and makes them very like inferior Flameguard

Flank(FF warbeast) sounds interesting, as does gang, but they are both very strong on a unit with CMA and so unlikely.

[hamsandwich50]

I think powerful charge could work and I don't think reach and CMA make it over powered.

[PG_Feeple]

Set defense would be nice, but they certainly need something offensive as well. I like gang a lot, but gang on a reach unit seems really powerful.

The Houseguard halbrediers get that more or less with the minifeat Team Effort.

[Unseen]

IMO, Karax are far behind the curve offensively, but between CMA and Reach close enough. I'd want to distinguish the Karax by pushing their defensive/ground holding abilities to the Xtreeme.

Officer
Extra MAT extra CMD maybe a magical weapon.
Tactics: Fire Immunity
Granted: Immovable
Mini-feat: Greater Destiny
Order: Forward position- Run into shield wall cannot attack, engage or be engaged for 1 round.

Standard Bearer
Granted: Adamant- Immune to damage without a damage roll.(ie, corrosion, Sniper, entering a BoC Cloud, etc)

[hamsandwich50]

IMO, Karax are far behind the curve offensively, but between CMA and Reach close enough. I'd want to distinguish the Karax by pushing their defensive/ground holding abilities to the Xtreeme.

Officer
Extra MAT extra CMD maybe a magical weapon.
Tactics: Fire Immunity
Granted: Immovable
Mini-feat: Greater Destiny
Order: Forward position- Run into shield wall cannot attack, engage or be engaged for 1 round.

Standard Bearer
Granted: Adamant- Immune to damage without a damage roll.(ie, corrosion, Sniper, entering a BoC Cloud, etc)

I think that would justify a 3 point UA since the standard does something other than standard and that is a lot of denial, not saying that i wouldn't pay 3 points for a UA that does all that.

[Cronix]

Tactics: Set Defense / Shield Guard
Granted: Flank Warbeast
Mini-feat: Defensive Formation

[x3tsniper]

Is adamant in the game, or is that home brew?

[Rynth]

Pretty sure its homebrewed

[maynardstardust]

I am keener to get a UA for Immortals as I love their models. Maybe a mini-feat that allows them to go incorporeal once per game (like the Blood Witch Hag) and tactics Brutal Charge (+2 Dam) for the unit and any AG models within CMD range. It would reinforce the need for the two to be together in a list but would do lot for both models.

Tangent!

That does sound cool. I'd like an extoller UA for them.

[Falkman]

The Houseguard halbrediers get that more or less with the minifeat Team Effort.

But that is just for one turn. I'd be superhappy if Karax got Team effort.
Though like Deathnglory I'd rather see a UA for Immortals first.

[Jojoburra]

How about Hordes getting more things in the next book expansion? I mean why the hell would PP give Warmachine more stuff when they already have more stuff since they came out earlier. Wouldn't it be fair if we get at least 1 more than warmachine instead of the other way around? Don't get me wrong I loved the new stuff we are getting, but I was just expecting to more considering that Warmachine already has a lot (excluding Retribution of course).

And more minions as well please, because they really need more options to be honest.

[Galen of the Faith]

When I think about what I want for both Immortals and Karax I end up at nearly the same place. I want a durable melee unit with enough hitting power to not be ignored. That being said I would like to see one or both units receive some special/utility rules with their UA to differentiate them from eachother.

As for the Karax I don't want them to be just inferior temple flamguard. I wouldn't mind seeing iron zeal, but would prefer other abilities from just set defense. I still think that karax are bad enough that Flank: FF beast wouldn't break them and would give them a unique spot of being infantry that can support our beasts. It might even help put more Cyclopses on the table. A unit of flanking karax and a savage/brute could be a solid force moving up one side of the table.

I also love the idea of elemental immunity. Maybe it should just be a new extoller solo, but imagine it being like girded where adjacent friendlies were also protected.

I also like the idea of karax protecting models behind from ranged attacks. some sort of cover mechanic or enemies can't draw line of sight through karax models would be interesting.

Karax are bland enough right now that they could swing almost any direction if the UA buffs correctly. I just want something unique and not another shieldwall clone unit because I always see Karax coming out worse than TFG or IFP.

As for Immortals I think combined melee, and either band of brothers (like troll champs) or indomitable (like gators) would help

or was it defensive line I was thinking of for Immortals. which is +2 Armor while base-to-base with another guy?

Maybe powerful/brutal charge? Maybe a mini-feat damage boost so they could threaten beasts/jacks? Maybe a rule that gives them bonuses while around living faction warrior models? Old warriors and new working together for Skorne supremacy! I never did understand why immortals don't give souls. Don't they specificly have souls put in them from the start?

It got a little rambley there for a minute but whatever. It feels good to get it out

[Galen of the Faith]

double post

[Falkman]

I never did understand why immortals don't give souls. Don't they specificly have souls put in them from the start?

Yes, but they are contained in sacral stones which are incredibly durable and hard to break. When a sacral stone shatters the soul becomes a Kovaas, so look to Zaal if you want some of that action.

[Rynth]

Yes, but they are contained in sacral stones which are incredibly durable and hard to break. When a sacral stone shatters the soul becomes a Kovaas, so look to Zaal if you want some of that action.

An Incubi/Kovaas type weapon attachment for Immortals would be pretty sweet.

[alexandyr]

I think that the idea of making Karax into a warbeat support unit with Flank [FF Warbeast] is intriguing, and it gives them a specialization that is different from anything else we have. I also really like the flavor of the Pike Wall order and Turtle rules suggested above.

Here's another alternative that doubles down on their defensive and denial abilities:
2 pt UA, leader and standard
Karax Officer
Tactics: Treated Armor (immune: fire, corrosion)
Granted: Testudo Defense (when benefitting from Shield Wall, models in this unit and friendly models in base-to-base contact with models in this unit gain Set Defense and Impervious Flesh)
Minifeat: Defensive Formation
Standard Bearer
Has shield, no spear.

Here's another alternate vision for an Immortals UA (there's just so many cool ways to go with these guys)

Extoller Attendant of the Ancients UA
2 pts, single model
Staff like Marketh (no ranged attack)
Ghost Shield
Gate Keeper (CMD 10)
Spirit Guide
Ancestral Strength (models in this unit can spend soul tokens from this model to boost attack and damage rolls)
Tactics: Battle Driven
Granted: Powerful Charge
Minifeat: Blood Shadow

Battle Driven makes for a very powerful combo with Vengeance, and the Extoller could would have the option to keep souls to buff the unit or give them to the inevitable attached Ancestral Guardian. Blood Shadow could be used to help keep the unit (and especially the Extoller) alive long enough to collect souls for a powerful counterpunch with Ancestral Strength. It even has some build in Skornegy since Blood Shadow is likely to prevent you from gaining the benefits of vengeance and battle driven the turn that it is used.

[Supervillain]

Pratorian Karax Prefect and Standar bearer
Officer:
Tactics: Fortitude- anytime a model in this unit would suffer damage. reduce that amount by one. (essentially immunity to anatomical precision, corrosion)
Minifeat- Shield bash- a model charged by a model in this unit is knocked down
Granted: Perfect Guard- While this model is in play, models under the effect of the shield guard order can forfeit their attack to be untargetable by magical or ranged attacks originating in their front arc for one round.

Standard bearer:
Granted: While in this models command area, models in this unit gain Arcane assassin