Can't beat Circle and eBaldur...

[pridefall]

Guys. I'm currently 0/7 win-loss against the Circle player in my local meta, and eBaldur has supplied me with at least 3 of those losses. I don't know what it is, but no matter what caster I use, no matter what tryx I try, he still manages to beat me, and beat me in such a way that I've considered actually DROPPING my Warmachine armies just to play Hordes and not have to deal with what -- I believe -- is the unbalanced nature of Focus-vs-Fury.

But let's not debate that, here.

I just can't beat him...or get the alpha strike. Gatorix sitting pretty at an absurd amount of arm and def because of animus/concealment/spell/his ability is nuts. The Dragoon for the army is nuts when he can get stealth just by having a fraction of his base within a forest and roll five dice on the charge w/reeves. The chicks with prey and weapon master on their spears -- specifically their cavalry form -- taking out DJ on the charge multiple times is freaking insane. I literally can't come up with a list that's able to NOT have my 'jacks destroyed in one round of combat with his Stalker or Gatorix or his construct with hammer hands -- I'm at the end of my rope.

I put my infantry in front to screen my jacks, and he kills them and sprints away. I invest in shooting to help damage them on the way in, and oops it turns out that most of his army is stealthed or hiding behind swamp gobbers. I use Skarre's feat thinking I'll be able to damage him, but constructs have naturally high arm against my pillow-fisted jacks and Seether CAN'T THROW ANYTHING because lol my feat and this spell on the one guy you want to throw the most means he can't be moved.

Someone, please tell me what I can do here. I'm seriously just considering not even playing against Circle anymore because I can't deal with how cheap they are.

[Gutterrkraw]

What casters and list are you using ? EBaldur is a rough fight but hes not unbeatable. Between parasite and darkshroud and other debuffs high armor isnt a problem. If hes got models hiding in the forests we have models that can go in those woods and give em fits, nightmare can go ghostly and so can baneknights and BLT forests wont save them. If your DJ is getting killed by infantry EGaspy can put caustic mist around him its a 3" aoe that does corrosion damage to anything that enters it single wound infantry will auto die to it and it blocks los so he wont get shot up and his feat will punish your opponent for killing your infantry. As for your Seether you dont always have to throw with his chain attack sometimes headbutting to knockdown a model is a better choice. A model thats knocked down isnt engaged and doesnt block LoS and its auto hit by melee, and ranged and spells miss on snakeeyes only. Cryx has the ability to deal with anything its up against you just need to apply the proper application of force and tactics.

[pridefall]

My first list was eDenny with banes, nightmare, etc, etc. I kept her screened with a slayer, and his construct with the hammer hands charges in after his reeves broke my flank of Banes, smacks my slayer out of the way, and Gatorix comes in and kills her. The previous turn he killed Nightmare as well.

Next list, toward game 4 -- I was using Khador for some games -- had me using pSkarre. Since I wasnt using Knights -- all of our games are at 35 points -- I had no way around the massive amounts of rough terrain he was making each turn, and Gatorex wrecks Nightmare again, and then charges through the forest that used to be my unit of Mechanithralls and kills Skarre on the next turn.

Next game I tried using pSkarre, he feated before I could use my own feat, so even if I got a psuedo alpha-charge (He had his beasts in combat with some of my guys), nothing I had could crack his ARM, since he made sure to tie up my Banes and Slayers and Seethers hit like marshmellows against ARm 19+

NEXT game, I used Venethrax and a full compliment of banes and knights, and a pair of reapers, and surprise surprise -- the reapers can't hit **** with rat 5 and have to move each turn to get close to his constantly sprinting wolves, and Gatorix with snacking + sprint reduces my infantry to basically nothing within two turns. I try to get Venethrax into combat to kill a beast and camp focus, but he can't kill the World Warden due to bad rolls and gets annihilated the next turn.

Even

[pridefall]

Only two of our casters have spell-based debuffs, and hitting with them against any beast other than a construct requires a boost and for that model to either have an arc node -- which are a waste of points against Circle, as far as I'm concerned. -- or be close to the front line. With the insane charge ranges his beasts have, along with the movement shenanigans inherent to the army, I can't afford any of those two casters being that close.

Darkshroud is good, but even -2 arm still leaves Gatorix at Def 14 arm 19 in combat...which only Nightmare and Deathjack can have a hope even THREATEN to kill in one turn of combat with three focus. And it's the same with the constructs -- even with Darkshroud, they're still fairly high-arm, and pow 16 fists just don't cut it.

DJ isn't getting killed by infantry that charges him and gets into combat with him -- he's getting killed by cavalry that make him their prey and have weaponmaster on their spears and can assault. And if he isn't wrecked outright, he's left with a pisspoor amount of health. Caustic Mist also doesn't work, because they have Hunter, and can move so much -- remember, Cavalry -- that they can get around a little 3" template..

He hides his models in the forest far enough back that I can't get LoS to them, so I get no charge bonus and have to walk into combat -- I don't have a problem with that, though. I have a problem when he puts cloud effects with Gobbers or Druids and puts models just BARELY on the edge of the template so that they can gain their Prowl/Camouflage/Concealment bonuses.

You also can't knock-down when his beasts are effected by eBaldur's spell that gives +3 arm.

[Temujin]

The Dragoon for the army is nuts when he can get stealth just by having a fraction of his base within a forest and roll five dice on the charge w/reeves

Morraig (the dragoon) does not get Flank (the ability that allows 5 damage dice) from the Reeves. He has flank with the Wolves of Orboros, which is a different unit.

My first list was eDenny with banes, nightmare, etc, etc. I kept her screened with a slayer, and his construct with the hammer hands charges in after his reeves broke my flank of Banes, smacks my slayer out of the way, and Gatorix comes in and kills her. The previous turn he killed Nightmare as well.

Mr. Hammerhands (Wold Guardian) has a 7.5" threat range on the charge. Perhaps you shouldn't park your warcaster that close?

Next game I tried using pSkarre, he feated before I could use my own feat, so even if I got a psuedo alpha-charge (He had his beasts in combat with some of my guys), nothing I had could crack his ARM, since he made sure to tie up my Banes and Slayers and Seethers hit like marshmellows against ARm 19+

Claiming pSkarre with Banes, Slayers and Seethers and her feat can't touch ARM19+ is just laughable. The 'jacks alone are at dice+2 on her feat turn. Get swinging!

Only two of our casters have spell-based debuffs, and hitting with them against any beast other than a construct requires a boost

I believe the number may be slightly higher than that. Also, boosts are not always required. A FOC7 caster attacking a warpwolf through a node that have snuck into its back-arc hits on a 5+, no boost necessary.

Darkshroud is good, but even -2 arm still leaves Gatorix at Def 14 arm 19 in combat...which only Nightmare and Deathjack can have a hope even THREATEN to kill in one turn of combat with three focus. And it's the same with the constructs -- even with Darkshroud, they're still fairly high-arm, and pow 16 fists just don't cut it.

Ghetorix is ARM19 unbuffed in combat *before* you subtract the -2 for dark shroud. Even then, he cannot afford to get charged by much of anything Cryxian. Our infantry hits really hard and ARM19 is nothing to banes, power-swelled satyxis or even 2-3 bonejacks with AP and/or Grievous Wounds.

DJ isn't getting killed by infantry that charges him and gets into combat with him -- he's getting killed by cavalry that make him their prey and have weaponmaster on their spears and can assault. And if he isn't wrecked outright, he's left with a pisspoor amount of health. Caustic Mist also doesn't work, because they have Hunter, and can move so much -- remember, Cavalry -- that they can get around a little 3" template..

Wolf Riders only have weaponmaster on their *thrown* spears, not their normal attacks. With Prey, they're at 3d6-8/3d6-8/2d6-5 on their damage rolls which should absolutely not be wrecking the DJ in one turn, or anything close to that, as long as you aren't getting charged by the entire unit. They don't have reach so it's pretty much impossible to get more than three on a jack, best case. Also, Hunter does not allow them to ignore cloud effects for LOS when declaring a charge, so Caustic Mist does work as protection.

I have a problem when he puts cloud effects with Gobbers or Druids and puts models just BARELY on the edge of the template so that they can gain their Prowl/Camouflage/Concealment bonuses.

None of that crap matters to a charging thrall or 'jack. Use reach infantry against the druids to negate the -2 MAT from their special clouds.

Circle are very far from OP, but like Cryx, they do require you to learn their rules to be effective against them. You need to do this, or you will continue to lose.

[Gutterrkraw]

DJ is also an abomination...any models that try to melee him and are inside 3" have to take a command check unless thier fearless...and he also generates 2 free focus every turn as long as both of his skulls of hate are undamaged you can also give him 3 focus putting DJ at 5 focus...Ghetorix with parasite and darkshroud is down 5 arm and the DJ is MAT8 PoW 18 with 5 potential fury....he should be tearing that wolf appart when he gets on him.

[West996]

Sounds like you need to read your opponents cards carefully, seems like he might be playing some things wrong.

[PG_Albinoprince]

I play circle and cryx. ebaldur included. And Pridefall is right about most things he's listed, although I think he meant to say "wolves of orboros" instead of "reeves" when talking about Morraig's damage output. it sounds like everything he's mentioned is being played correctly.

eBaldur's feat and one of his spells gives +3ARM which is where Pridefall's getting the Ghetorix's 19 arm w/dark shroud.

The Wolf Riders probably shouldn't be wrecking DJ in one turn though (although Hunter does indeed ignore cover/concealment and the Wolf Riders have 5 boxes so no, Caustic Mist doesn't work for protection). Even with every one of them hitting DJ, average dice will leave them doing 30 boxes of damage total. that's if every single attack hits, AND every single model can get into melee on the charge. And they don't have reach so that'll be tough. The more realistic situation is that 3 of them get into melee with drops the average damage to 22 which he'll probably heal most of while devouring their souls next turn. Also, the wolf riders are NOT fearless so remember he's an abomination!

I know the ARM that eBaldur can throw down is intimidating. the 'hammer handed' beast (Wold Guardian) is still ARM 18 even with dark shroud AND parasite on him (thus every bane only doing an average of 3 damage to his 30 boxes of health). It can feel like you're barely scratching him. especially since Baldur can HEAL constructs.

What generally works against me when I use eBaldur (although i'm 5/0 with him) is to focus your fire on one of my beasts to bring it down. Most circle beasts fall into 2 categories: Tough but pillowfisted and slow OR fragile but beatsticks and fast. Just kill the beatsticks first and you can probably just feed the pillowfisted guys a model here and there to slow them down while you out-maneuver him.

Baldur himself is 20ARM with his spell/feat up so he's not a pushover either. And if he's got 'ole hammerhands (wold Guardian) he can transfer even if it's maxed out on FURY. So dropping him in one turn is a serious challenge. And if your opponent's playing extra defensive, he's got the light warbeast with Stone Form and Shield Guard so he's got an ARM24 (w/spell or feat) camping between you and baldur, ready to soak up one ranged attack and block charge lanes. To top it all off, none of the models with his feat/spell on them can be knocked down or moved in any way. So you can't even slam them over each other. Yea, one tough nut to crack...

I'd try to get Crippling Grasp on one of his big, slow jacks and leave it there. Having one secion of his brick moving at SPD 2 or 3 can really limit his mobility.

If you REALLY want to ruin his day, bust out old pGoreshade with Mage Blight. Since his +3ARM spell isn't an upkeep he has to cast it 2-3 times every turn to stay bricked up. Mage Blight stops that AND his feat dead in their tracks.

eSkarre with Death Ward on DJ can also be too much for him to deal with. His constructs' low speed means they can't outmaneuver DJ to get to your caster and DJ can probably survive an alpha strike by his one heavy hitter. Especially if you've got him protected by her feat too.

Also, bring along some warwitch sirens. getting Shadow Bind on his beasts will lock them down quite nicely since I think only one Circle beast has reach. And his constructs have horrible DEF (Wold Guardian is a 9, I believe) so the sirens shouldn't have any trouble keeping them locked down.

I'm tired. I'm sure I can give more advice but it's late and i'm hitting the sack. Hope this helps. I'll check it again tomorrow.

[Temujin]

The Wolf Riders probably shouldn't be wrecking DJ in one turn though (although Hunter does indeed ignore cover/concealment and the Wolf Riders have 5 boxes so no, Caustic Mist doesn't work for protection).

Caustic Mist does indeed work to protect your stuff from Wolf Riders, provided that you place your models behind the clouds and not in them.

Hunter - This model ignores forests, concealment, and cover when determining LOS or making a ranged attack.

Nothing about ignoring the LOS-blocking effect of clouds in there. Cover/concealment have nothing to do with LOS so ignoring those effects doesn't allow you to ignore LOS-requirement for charges in any way.

[PG_Albinoprince]

Caustic Mist's 3 inch aoe template will AT MOST block LOS from one wolfrider since they're large base. And if you center it ON DJ, then the concealment won't give him a bonus VS their thrown attacks. That means 4 more can still get the charge off and the one that's LOS is blocked can still get the Weaponmaster throw in by moving to the side first. At best you're keeping one model from being fully optimal against one target. Since they have a SPD9 and Assault, the one model without LOS to DJ can almost definately still charge another target. Sure, it won't do it's (on average) 2 damage to DJ but it's likely to do massive damage to anything else.

Personally I'd probably have them preying something other than DJ anyway. He's too beefy for them. The odds of them managing to kill him on their own are pretty harsh. You should be happy he's sending them DJ's way since he shouldn't be bothered by them too much. When he starts picking your caster as his prey and sending them all around the flank, that's when you should be worried!

[Crate123]

Err I think you're missing the point here, you can put down more than 1 Caustic Mist, 3 aoe's will block LOS from a lot of models. Ofcourse they can spread out, but 3 mists put around DJ, all touching each other (but not DJ ofcourse), basically protects you from anything in your front arc.

[Sanctjud]

Then you throw in Terrain and maybe Gorman cloud and/or BloodWitch clouds (extreme cases Wraith Engine Clouds).
eGaspy (IMO) is all about cloud usage, rather than his feat.

[PinkyIvan]

im a new player but as far as I know(i ussualy kill every jack i face in a charge) nothing can survive a charge from banes and dennys feat or spells

[Sanctjud]

True, and then you realize you can win and cripple the enemy with less resources and activation time.

[PG_Albinoprince]

Err I think you're missing the point here, you can put down more than 1 Caustic Mist, 3 aoe's will block LOS from a lot of models. Ofcourse they can spread out, but 3 mists put around DJ, all touching each other (but not DJ ofcourse), basically protects you from anything in your front arc.

HA! Well spotted. I concede that this would probably protect DJ. In my head I had it tagged as an upkeep spell. Although you'd have to space them so that his Druids also could not get LOS to DJ or they can just pull him out of his cloud shield.

And if you start trying to dominate him with upkeeps (denny) he'll probably wind up bringing Bloodweavers. They can drop upkeep spells.

Unfortunately, Circle is one of those factions that you can't have an "always-works" counter to, even against specific casters. Even when you know what their CORE force is going to be. Because they have so many counter-counters in their infantry. You'd really have to change it up every game to keep him guessing. If you fall into a pattern he'll just always take the things that counter your plan to stop him.