Merc answer for pDenny?

[Rustoof]

I've come to mercs from a long time of playing eHaley. I got burnt out with her, and honestly almost never miss her "power." But tonight I played pDenny with all the goodies (max thralls, ua, blt, max nyss, 2 pistol wraiths etc..) and I'm stumped as to how to counter her.

My thoughts so far center around Ashlynns tier. Perhaps just general high born?

The problem with ashlynn is scourge is an ashlynn killer. And is an 8 point mariner worth taking to avoid the one spell?

The key unit is obviously going to be gun mages + Ua. Any of the highborn casters can do it. The other problem is pDennys feat which calls for a denial caster as well. So that leaves me thinkinjg Ashlynn or fiona. But ashlynn is very vulnerable to the spells and Fiona's noki brand is not that hot (although two fully boosted soulfires could end a focus less pdenny)

Basically I feel stuck against this. Especially since I'd like to try to keep eeiryss in my "take all comers" (except for pdenny apparently) Damiano list.

So any one have any kind of success playing pdenny with mercs?

[cannonball]

Can't make too many suggestions but a sticky or thread dealing with how mercs can deal with eDenny, eSkarre, eHaily, eVlad would be pretty good ya?

[PG_vytzka]

Well Mariner is by no means a bad jack with Ashlynn (you may have to forfeit the Vanguard but it's not like you're going to get shot up a lot). The issue with Denny is that she's got stealth and Gun Mages will probably not kill her on their own so you'll have to try to pin her in melee somehow.

Durgen can of course just kill her with feated blast damage with a suitable distraction the turn before for her to spend focus on and a bit of luck. You'll need 4 focus for all possible boosts (relevant if you get caught in the Feat) so a Basher will be handy, as well as the usual pair of Dougal and Reinholdt.

[Lamoron]

Mercenaries are very short on answers for Warwitch Deneghra. The first place to look is stealth, because pDenny lists rarely have the ability to ignore stealth. The second part is long range stealth ignoring firepower like Gun Mages, kept back so they aren't caught in her feat (or at least makes her overextend when she does it).

You need immunity to knockdown as well, since you're dead meat if you go down to it. pDenny will drop you and hit you with a kazillion shots on 3+ with -5 armor = dead anything. You'll also need magical weapons to take out the Pistol Wraiths before they do their stuff, and some way to block the Bane assault (If your dice are hot a full unit of Boomhowlers is a tough cookie to chew, but Precursor Knights are probably your best bet).

Your goal should be to keep the Gun Mages safe, because it severely limits your opponents feat options if you have them free to act when he feats. It doesn't matter much if they do nothing besides threaten her the entire game, but Ashlynn's feat and critical brutal shot will turn pDenny into goo. Use whatever other ranged options you have to get rid of those Arc Nodes, and she becomes a lot more manageable.

You can't really out-build pDenny, but you can outplay her. As long as you have your feat and a full unit of non-crippled non-withered Gun Mages, you're deciding how the game plays out.

[raincaller]

pdenny is one caster you will be glad you brought Epic Eiryss.

[CareyBear]

I find the most common response to pDenny from all factions is the foetal position. It doesn't help, but it saves time.

[Lamoron]

I find the most common response to pDenny from all factions is the foetal position. It doesn't help, but it saves time.

I'm stealing that for my pDenny spotlight!

[PG_vytzka]

I really find eDenny slightly more annoying to play against. But I really really really detest Hellmouth.

[pattison]

I find the most common response to pDenny from all factions is the foetal position. It doesn't help, but it saves time.

Hahaha, very true!
On the other hand I always had the best results against her with Durgen and a good Highborn force.

[Ashcans]

I wish I had advice here, but all I can say is that my match against Denegra was the shortest game I have played. It was a little depressing, and I haven't had the chance for a rematch yet.

You need immunity to knockdown as well, since you're dead meat if you go down to it. pDenny will drop you and hit you with a kazillion shots on 3+ with -5 armor = dead anything.

Here's a thought: If you use Magnus, then once he is knocked down he can't be targeted by ranged or magic attacks (Feign Death). Obviously you have to make sure that she can't knock him down and then get someone into melee with him, but it takes the edge of that particular route. The downside, obviously, is that you lose out on access to the Gun Mages. That might be too big a trade,

[LiamPiver]

I've got to echo Vytzka here. Running Durgen with Gun Mages and some other support can essentially just destroy her entire army pretty fast. Even having something like primed Press Gangers to sit on points and wait for bane thrall interaction shuts her down since they'll auto die to anything they kill. Durgen and the Gun Mages also have the Rat to kill her Arc Nodes especially if you throw in Dougal and a Heavy Ranged Warjack on the Mages.

Denny is probably relying on both Incorp and Stealth to hide most of her army. If you can get around that you'll be doing pretty well.

[PG_vytzka]

While Magnus does in fact have Feign Death and enough armor/focus camp to be a lot harder than Ashlynn when hit, I find that knocking your own caster down and hoping nothing gets to him is practically never worth it on the table. Especially considering that Denny has a spray spell that can target whatever.

[Tucker]

Wait, why can't Damiano fight Deneghra? He has the buffs to counter her debuffs, he can't be knocked down, he can generate a high enough DEF (from Sure Foot and Rocinante) to survive in melee, and he has Deadeye to help Gunmages kill Pistol Wraiths and Banes. I would figure that a good mix of troops and warjacks would knock Deneghra around, or at least have a good chance against her.

[mikethefish]

Indeed - I haven't tried him out yet, but our Steelhead commander should really have a fairly good chance.

[Ransomansor]

Blaize seems like a pretty good answer.

Banishing Ward is really strong against her. Being able to hit her first, and with melee, does a lot to mitigate her feat. You have a pretty decent counter-feat because the effects don't happen until after you get your focus stat back. She also can't just disable your game winners and call it a day because Transference means you have too many game winners for that to be a viable plan.

[Pyromaster]

I personally have fought PDenny with EMagnus, and I guess i'm just wasting space, but I persoanlly never found a way to deal with her. When I seemed to not have enough armour I put more in and she still obliterated me. Then I tried Arc Node wars, got annhilated there as well.

And then I tried Damiano.... and that was worse. I find these problems against cryx in general, so if someone could lay me out some serious pointers, much appreciation would be awarded.

[joelker41]

My standard answer to Cryx stays the same: Ashlynn Theme Force if it is a 50 point game. Pound the arc nodes from Long range, and for a different wrinkle throw in Precursors. Spell warded troops that don't need weapon master when they kill virtually all cryx troops in one hit on average rolls anyways.

Ashlynn certainly isn't a win-button vs Cryx, but she certainly can give them fits.

[Skorpius47]

I play Piratey Cryx, but i can tell you that Gun Mages piss me off. With UA fielding a Mule/Mariner, you'll have Arcane Inferno, Snipe, Thunderbolt, Magical Weapon, and True Sight for your unit while your Warjack is throwing out AoE's. Every time I play my Cryx against Cygnar or Highborn, Gun Mages piss me off.

"Oh, just lock them into melee and they're toast!"

But each one is knocking back my models d3" every time they hit! How can I get to them if I keep moving backwards!?

[CareyBear]

Ok, in all seriousness, Cryx is a difficult match. They have decent infantry with excellent access to Stealth and debuffs - but not a lot of armour. Mercs don't like debuffs, we usually depend on some sort of buff to get the job done (Well, I play Talion mostly so I really do).

It's not that they're significantly better - it's that any multiplier is unusually effective. So a poor Cryx player won't pose a huge problem - you'll get the hits and kill their troops, catch their caster out and it's over - because they'll make serious mistakes and give you the opportunity.

A GOOD Cryx player, on the other hand, will make your life a living hell. It's kinda their shtick. Also, I really hate The Withering stacked with Crippling Grasp. It's just unfun.


I did have one pressganger drop about 6 4+ tough rolls vs pGaspy one time. It was FUNNY. Eventually the Iron Lich just gave up and walked away, popped feat to get his focus back and started being sensible about the game again.

So yeah, roll hot dice. That helps.

[Rustoof]

So it seems like the suggestions are Ash, Durgen or Constance?

[PG_vytzka]

Well those would be the go-to choices. What do you have?

[Rustoof]

What i have is the willingness to buy the models I need. I just started mercs, and have grabbed the "good stuff"

So boomies, nyss, gunmages, rhupert, eeiryss gorman, etc...

My stable of warcasters is lacking since I'm only playing damiano right now.

Now my understanding from theory machine is that durgen is more competitive than ashlynn who is more competitive that constance in a general way. My thoughts on the subject particularly against pdenny makes me think constance would be the best, given banishing ward. However access to banishing ward is mitgated somewhat by crusaders call being practically useless with no charges allowed under dennys feat, although transference hopefully with a bunch of soul focus should help. Additionally, I think constance would be a good matchup vs. elylth. With durgen or ashlynn I would be having to take eeiryss, and i'd like to keep her with damiano in my take all comers list.

So i guess it really is gonna come down to playstyle. Durgen with gunmages, risen, H&J, thor w some rhulic jack, and rheinholt seems like a good starting point. Put the risen into the nyss while primed, use a redlined driller to tag arc nodes, gun mages into bane thralls.

That leaves me needing something to kill BLT, perhaps a gudrun +bokur combo?

My fifty point damiano steam roller list is;
Max nyss, max boomies, eeiryss, wrong eye and snapjaw, rorsh and brine, two bokurs, nomad. Its pretty solid, but stealth is a real killer.

So what teams up well with that, not only for pdenny but for other stuff i might have problems with?

[StJason]

Now my understanding from theory machine is that durgen is more competitive than ashlynn who is more competitive that constance in a general way.

*boggles*

Madhammer over di'Alyse???

[CareyBear]

Versus pDenny only I think. I nearly popped a blood vessel too - but he has a way more effective assassination vs miss squishy with Dougal and Reinholdt. And feat maybe? Add ARGM and pDenny is not thrilled by what's across the table.
Thats a new experience for her. New experiences are to be encouraged..

[Aya]

If you're having troubles with Banes Gun Mages + Dude are an easy solution with or without the Mule. You can also rock Precursor Knights if you want a big unit of guys who can't be targeted by spells and with their UA's mini feat can reliably wreck most jacks in a round with or without help.

[cannonball]

Pirate's Life and hope for first turn?

[raincaller]

Denegrah problems? Why, the solution is easy my friend! Just take our brand spanking new character 'jack Rocinante! Guard dog is an awesome ability and so long as you can keep Rocinante standing Ashlynn will get immunity to knockdown and +2 def in melee.

Where does "guard dog" say you gain immunity from knockdown?

[Aya]

Where does "guard dog" say you gain immunity from knockdown?

Whoops, thinking of something else, ignore me.

[cannonball]

If she stands next to a Mariner. Then again, slam city target!

[MarneusBigFists]

I've always won in wierd ways against her. Like slamming Nightmare on top of her, or Picking her arcnodes off with Kell.

I end up doing attrition, cause if she gets me in her control it's toast.

I'd also suggest Ashlyn with Gunmages marshalling a mule. Destroy her army first, especially the arcnodes. And I do mean destroy. If there's something standing by the time she gets in feat range you're done.

[isawatsuke]

When I play mercs my usual go to guys are the gunmages with ashlyn. 24" assasination range for light warcasters like denny means that she has to keep focus on herself at all times. Though when I play against a good cryx player they usually end up trading an arcnode to cripple the gunmage unit.

[rydiafan]

*boggles*

Madhammer over di'Alyse???

I think so, yeah. Inhospitable Ground can shut down a lot of armies out there, giving you huge scenario advantage. Primed on a unit that can get behind enemy lines (like risen or kayazy) can murder support pieces and give a shooting list fits. Plus, Durgen has an amazing assassination threat.

[MagnustheJust]

AoE's.


That is all.

[LiamPiver]

*boggles*

Madhammer over di'Alyse???

I will take Durgen over Ashlynn for a tourney. He is just so good for control in the new SR rules. Granted Ashlynn's feat is amazing and her spell list is good. However, primed models can just sit on points. You'll either have to pop them from range or have reach to take them out so it dictates what resources your opponent will have to use to take them out. Both can take Gun Mages so that kind of matches out. Durgen is better at taking out infantry as he can do that pretty much by himself if they clump too much thanks to Carpet Bomb. Durgen can sit back and pop hard targets for enough damage to where his infantry normally can wreck a heavy. Ashlynn is better at killing casters when in combat thanks to all of her insane abilities. But depending on focus allocation/hit points of the enemy caster, Durgen can potentially just kill them without having to attack thanks to ground zero if we're talking about getting into melee. Durgen has better armor so can take some shots but Ashlynn's stats of 17/15 are better all around against one big opponent. Neither really likes to use jacks that much but Durgen has better access to incredibly focus efficient jacks like the bunnies (spray or gun). While both technically have access to the Driller thanks to Thor, Durgen with a driller and redlined is pretty scary. I will cast almost all of Durgen's spells throughout the course of a game. I'll cast on average two of Ashlynns. Ashlynn is a great caster, but I think for SR, Durgen is all around better. But then again in SR, why not take both?

[PG_Devilsquid]

Kill the Arc Nodes, as always...

Fiona the Black would work well...run/trample an arc node into position near Denny, and soulfire her.

[The Immortal One]

Fight fire with fire. Feiona the Black is the answer.
Thanks for making me actually taking the time to read the words better on Guard Dog.
Send in a arc-noded warrior (i like first mate hawk since she has acrobatics)
you can get 7 soulfire spells off or 8 influence spells on her units (taking jacks vs jacks)
and yes gun mages work awesome vs cryx and that will be a target for them to focus on and not your support models
you can force them to come after you and move them where you want to since you can play her same tricks and better if you want to put Nonokrion Brand on a good unit like the mage hunters or nyss hunters.

[rydiafan]

Want to stop being Knocked down use Ricinante

This would be great advise if it were true. Shame it is not.

[PG_vytzka]

People need to stop saying that. And/or read the rules for Guard Dog already.

[Ger]

Now Grogspar does stop KD for Fiona.

[baronvonchaos]

Holy crap Ger. Didn't realize Bosun's NSotJ was for "Privateer" models and not just "Sea Dog" models. I so thought it was "sea dog" models. That is AWESOME!

I don't play anything rhulic so I can't speculate there, but I have some great counters for cryx in 4*, Pirate's life, & Highborne.

For magic slingers like Denny (and most cryxians) your first priority is nuke the arc nodes. Get something to go in there and hulk-smash things. The stupid bone chickens are going to run in at every angle they can. Something like SH Halberdiers or Boomhowler & Co. that can CMA to break that high def are great. They can cripple bone chickens. This gets their caster in close because their usual tricks are spell assassinations. 2nd priority is BLT or Gerlak or Darragh. Essentially Solos... Also take out the Combine. Then they're reduced to a faction of undead things. They now have to play your game. Oh and the Cankerworm. It's gross how awesome that jack is.

Honestly I find Cryx far easier to deal as opposed to the Retribution. The Ret gives me fits ignoring half the spells in the game. Cryx has very little in the way of great ranged options so I don't have to worry too much about that. They're good at anti-ranged (stealth) so I just bring AOE's. Everyone's favorite AOE slinger is the Mule. ARGM's will nuke anything stealthed also.

To get around spell assassinations and such:
1) Orin Midwinter! (Geez, haven't seen this one yet.) he stops spells from being cast (not channelled mind you) in a 12" radius. That's a massive board controller. It's stopped the deathjack's Necromancy and all sorts of stupid stuff like that. Awesome! He's a high value target though because of this so guard him well.
2) and somehow less obvious. pAlexia. Between undead fodder and spawning weapon masters to go scrap arc nodes she's great! Not to mention dominate undead. Hit BLT with it, turn him around and kill a bane or so and set him up to be charged in the back arc by...anything. Kill him!
3) Kell is there for anti-incorporeal. Magic weapon and dual shots is perfect for 2 pistol wraiths.
4) Gorman can bring down the high def. Black oiling bone jacks means sweet death at an easy cost.
5) Harlan Versh (great for Highborne), If a model casts a spell, he gets to shoot it. Awesome for the deathjack or Combine. Same with any other magic using model.
6) More obviously eEiryss for her great Anti-magic capabilites whether shutting down Arc Nodes or dispelling upkeeps. I'm not above poking my own dudes to dispel things.
7) Already stated. ARGM's because nuking stealth rocks and having the ability to ignore it is fantastic. Also having the ability to not care about it on a jack is sweet too. Now you're lobbing shots at 16" (with aiming bonus) at Rat 7 and blowing the crap out of stuff with little chance of reprisal.
8) Generically, AOE's: Anything that shoots an AOE from the Mule down to the Sea Dog deck gun crew can be a help. Dougal. OAC are great mobile artillery. Throw them in and just watch them destroy things since they can lob 5 rounds down range at a 17" threat...

Mercs have a lot of choices. Some great units to punch through/survive the heavy hitters like Boomie or SH's with Rhupert backed up by Alexia throwing in Risen to fill the gaps.
If you can withstand the cryx for 2 rounds, you usually can take out enough things that they'll lose based on attrition. Now I'm not going into Venethrax and souls or Terminus and his tough horde. Those are similar but still would require a little bit of extra stuff. Cryx is about the Alpha strike and sealing the deal with mortality than withstanding an onslaught.

Hope that helps. We had a cryx heavy meta for a while...

Oh and Pirate's life is all the tough stuff you have floating around as well as a RNG 16" AOE 4. Not to mention sprays... Hawk. Bosun's AOE. The Mariner. Basically AOE's and Ranged stuff. Use the units to keep the ranged stuff out of combat.

EDIT: I somehow misread True Sight to be under the Jack Marshall information. I figured the whole unit had it anyways. That makes more sense now. Amended just to clarify.