Colossals for Minions?

[Hoyled]

On the plus side submerge + hiding behind a large and a huge base makes getting to Wrong Eye pretty difficult.

[Vicomte Athos]

Heh, now I'm imagining you fielding it with say... Wrong Eye as its master and one good damage roll later... BOOM, 29ish points gone off the table in one shot.

Only snap jaw leaves when he dies, any beasts in his battle group would just go wild. It would be more so Cryx couldn't end up with a gargantuan in their lists.

[Hoyled]

Be an interesting 50 point list though. Cryx caster with Kraken, Wrong Eye with gargantuan, done.

[Space Donkey]

Be an interesting 50 point list though. Cryx caster with Kraken, Wrong Eye with gargantuan, done.

Lol that would be marvelous. Don't forget the obligatory Snapper.

Oh and 4* pMag with Galleon & a Renegade, Wrong Eye with Demon-dile, Snapper. Depending on how the points fall of course, but if both are in the 18-19 point range it would be golden.

[Benejeseret]

Pigs get the Battle Engine, it's a giant chariot/wagon like the Gun Carraige or the War Wagon, it's pulled by two large boars, has a pair of big cannons on the back and a few brigands with Pig Irons. Cavalry Rules, momentum guns and some small arms. Usable by Trolls, Circle and Thronfall.

Though I fear there is a chance you are right, a few things are most likely not.

Usable by Trolls and Circle is almost undoubtably NOT going to be the case. They already have a BE and getting access to 2 would not seem balanced...even if you expand this to all Hordes factions there is still an imbalance compared to Merc/Warmachine factions. To me, that is exactly what argues against any Minion Battle-Engines. The new thing is going to be a Colossal, meaning part of a battle-group, meaning limited to Minion casters.

Even then there is Rorshe/Wrong-Eye issues but I predict the Colossal will actually be limited to Minion Forces. Just my guess.

Finally, I don't like idea of Farrow using Boars....it just seems somehow weird to me. Each of the Hordes BE are quite unique, so having Minions carbon-copy Trolls seems too flimsy to be the answer.

[Azahul]

Though I fear there is a chance you are right, a few things are most likely not.

Usable by Trolls and Circle is almost undoubtably NOT going to be the case. They already have a BE and getting access to 2 would not seem balanced...even if you expand this to all Hordes factions there is still an imbalance compared to Merc/Warmachine factions. To me, that is exactly what argues against any Minion Battle-Engines. The new thing is going to be a Colossal, meaning part of a battle-group, meaning limited to Minion casters.

Even then there is Rorshe/Wrong-Eye issues but I predict the Colossal will actually be limited to Minion Forces. Just my guess.

Finally, I don't like idea of Farrow using Boars....it just seems somehow weird to me. Each of the Hordes BE are quite unique, so having Minions carbon-copy Trolls seems too flimsy to be the answer.

According to the rumours, Mercenaries are getting a Battle Engine next book. And seriously, looking at it, how would fielding four Battle Engines, including two that don't benefit from faction buffs, be unbalanced? As a rule it's hard enough to squeeze a single faction Battle Engine into a list. I do agree that if pigs get a Battle Engine, it's likely going to be useable by all the Hordes factions, but that's simply because at the current time everything pig works for every faction (barring Arkadius who seems to have an issue with Trolls). I'd also hope that PP would be slightly more original than making yet another carbon-copy of the Khador Battle Engine. Personally, I'm hoping for a giant pig with a howdah, similar to the Skorne one. Still, I don't know if we'll be getting our Colossal in the coming release. We might have to wait a bit, like Mercenaries with Battle Engines.

As for the whole generic thing, I really doubt that. As time has gone on the Pacts have only become more separate, and I think it's telling that the Merc Colossal is specific to a Contract (it can be used by most of the others, sure, but it's clearly a Pirate Colossal and one of the pacts, Searforge, isn't even allowed to use it). Aside from wild guesses about what PP might do to secure more profits, every indication points towards one pact getting a Battle Engine and the other a Colossal. And personally, I haven't seen too many cases of PP manipulating the game with no other reason than to make greater profits.

[zionson]

From NQ #41, Hordes Colossals names have been revealed:

Circle: Woldwrath
Trolls: Mountain King
Legion: Archangel
Skorne: Mammoth

No Minions colossal in sight.

Hope isn't dead. It's just unconscious.

[TinRobot]

I can only hope that they are trying to keep it a surprise...but I think that is pretty wishful thinking.

The other Hordes colossals are pretty expected.

[Ragged]

I seriously doubt there will be a minions colossal in the next book. We'll get a battle engine.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

I'm rooting for a fog drake or something. I'm much more likely to buy a gargantuan over a colossal just because I can use it in RPGs outside IKRPG. Plus, the colossals are neat, but haven't sold me yet. Big monsters are always a "must have".

[MagnustheJust]

How much have you spent already on this hobby Magnus?

To me the price point just says instead of being an auto-buy... it'll have to have really good rules to go with.

Not sure of actually amount {And honestly do not want to know!!} but I am pretty sure that I have broken at least the $3500.00 mark. And that's just minis, cards, and rule books for Warma/Hordes... This is also over the last seven years.

I had nearly everything available to the Mercs going into MK-II, as well as a fairly large Skron army, till I started to pare down and get rid of the models I was not playing at all. I had also stated up a 50 point Caine1/Caine2 list, because I had most of the models for use with Mags, and in Highborne lists. I still have my 50 point Butcher1/Butcher2 list - still not sure what I am doing with that.

Then the Gators caught my attention, and I went a lot nutz getting minis for that...

[Gator_Dave]

Why can't we just get a giant swamp spirt gator like the one in the Minions books story, that one
Calaban caught in his crystal skull. (And I'm not talking about domination, I'm talking about the story in which the pigs and Gators battled). We got dicked on the damn battle engine, now we get dicked on this too?

Give one side a battle engine, and the other side gets the colossal. That simple! Pigs get a creepy pig machine science thing, and gators get a giant swamp spirt. End of story! Woke up PP! Minions are popular as hell, they are dicking themselves as well as us! WHERE'S THE JUSTICE!!!!

[MagnustheJust]

Why can't we just get a giant swamp spirt gator like the one in the Minions books story, that one
Calaban caught in his crystal skull. (And I'm not talking about domination, I'm talking about the story in which the pigs and Gators battled). We got dicked on the damn battle engine, now we get dicked on this too?

Give one side a battle engine, and the other side gets the colossal. That simple! Pigs get a creepy pig machine science thing, and gators get a giant swamp spirt. End of story! Woke up PP! Minions are popular as hell, they are dicking themselves as well as us! WHERE'S THE JUSTICE!!!!

Your cause is becoming less sympathetic dude... Please find a new word.

[Antigonus]

Your cause is becoming less sympathetic dude... Please find a new word.

I'm confused - I'm finding myself agreeing with Magnus.

Would I like to see a Minion Colossal and/or Battle Engine in the next book? Sure. But would I be equally happy with a decent expansion in units, beasts and/or solos for both pacts instead? Sure.

[Benejeseret]

There has been a lot of talk about a Pig Battle Engine.

But

Can anyone cite where and when PP has ever dropped a hint regarding this? Otherwise this is wild speculation. If they have dropped hints about a special colossal TBA, but nothing about a BE, then why would they suddenly put out us a BE? Their style is to: a) tell us whats coming, b) throw out stat hints/card, c) show pics, d) release. Have they ever sprung something into production without the earlier steps?

Because, if they haven't sprung items into production like that - and there is no BE word from them, then we need to stop talking ourselves into a pig BE.

[Vicomte Athos]

Have they ever sprung something into production without the earlier steps?

Character Jack Upgrade kits.
Unit Upgrade Kits

[Space Donkey]

There has been a lot of talk about a Pig Battle Engine.

But

Can anyone cite where and when PP has ever dropped a hint regarding this? Otherwise this is wild speculation. If they have dropped hints about a special colossal TBA, but nothing about a BE, then why would they suddenly put out us a BE? Their style is to: a) tell us whats coming, b) throw out stat hints/card, c) show pics, d) release. Have they ever sprung something into production without the earlier steps?

Because, if they haven't sprung items into production like that - and there is no BE word from them, then we need to stop talking ourselves into a pig BE.

I'm pretty sure that when they announced that the Mercs getting a Colossal they said Minions would be getting the same treatment, however no timeline was given.

[eddie]

the loch ness doesnt like showing herself but when she does we'll be in awe

[chris_cryx]

My bet goes for a Drakodile as either a BE or a colossal.

I have been reading the old Monsternomicon book, and the Drakodile seems perfect as a Battle Engine or Colossal - given the scale perhaps more appropriate as a Battle Engine.

[TheLoki]

I'm confused - I'm finding myself agreeing with Magnus.

[Feverdream]

Just realized that I'd like something more along the lines of a character unit: Ham MacTusk and the Demon Hogs.

[watchgeorgerock]

Honestly, when we get Gargantuan and and Battle Engines I hope they can be used by both sub factions or BOTH get a Gargantuan and a Battle Engine. There has been no official statement saying that we will be getting either. So stop saying Pigs are getting a BE.

[Azahul]

Personally, I'd rather we get one faction with a Gargantuan and the other faction gets a Battle Engine. Just wishful thinking on my part, however

[Screwjack]

As an intern to the good Doctor I sincerely hope Pigs get a gargantuan soon. Dr. Arkadius is not as sane as he once was and I think the prospect of making that his greatest creation has made him barmier than a Scrutiator on Menoth Day.

He's even more scary than usual when someone brings up the Mountain King's base Strength stat. He keeps mumbling things like "Primal Shock straight to the Somatomotor Cortex!", and "Frontal Lobotomization will lead to Monster Mayhem of titanic forces!" then starts Giggling uncontrollably. May the twins help me if Carver rolls up with another stolen Applecart claiming it’s a "War Wagon of tremendous Machinations!"

I don’t know how Targ says nothing while this is going on; granted Targ doesn't ever talk, but the Notion still stands!

[DoktorVivi]

I don't know if a Gargantuan would really fit the fluff of Pigs... Gators totally, but not really pigs. A battle engine though, definitely.

[Fedora]

I've got it.

Instead of gators getting a colossal or battle engine, they get the 'sink hole' which is a mobile huge based deep water zone (friendly and enemy models can enter the area that makes up its base, and it can move out from under them) with 20 boxes and it can only be dealt damage by models being destroyed while within its circumference. Small based models deal 1pt per each model that descends to its death in it, 2pts for medium based models, 3pts for large based models.

So the main means of destroyed it will be by taking 20 of your single wound infantry and running them into it to die, in effect 'filling' the sink hole.

When it is destroyed, it leaves a shallow water 'wreck' marker.

Its only 'attack' will be the 'envelop' attack which removes all non-warcaster non-warlock models completely within its circumference from play and destroys the sink hole leaving shallow water. (Giving us a proper counter to colossals and gargants that aren't being voodoo dolled)

Totally balanced, I know what I'm talking about here.

[Benejeseret]

Screwjack, you just made +1 friend today.

As for you DoktorVivi...you just made a list too...pistols at hight noon?

In all seriousness though, I think it's pretty clear that there are some very different opinions regarding where our Pact might be headed. I actually dislike that things like this clearly split us rather than bring the Faction more unified in spirit. What I suspect it comes down to is that each Pact wants the Gargant and is willing to rationalize and hand out a BE as a consolation prize to the other. Until we get any information (cause we don't have even a scrap, don't fall for the 'well in Merc' wishful thinking) we should just agree to disagree.

What many seem to be agreeing about is that either faction wants our WA, UA, Solos, and options before we want a Gargant/BE.

[watchgeorgerock]

I don't know if a Gargantuan would really fit the fluff of Pigs... Gators totally, but not really pigs. A battle engine though, definitely.

You do know pigs have a crazy MAD SCIENTIST who experiments on monsters. I think the fluff is definitely there for the pigs to have a Gargantuan

[Azahul]

*raises hand*
Uh, I'm a pig player, and I rather hope we don't get the Gargantuan. I'm more than happy for Gators to get the Gargantuan and pigs the Battle Engine.

[Benejeseret]

Statistical anomaly and can be ignored (joking)

But are you an Arkadius player? It is hard to justify not wanting a Gargant with the good Doctor. Of all Minions locks, he is the most able to run, buff, and sync with a massive beast.

Actually, I guess this means you, Azahul, are the one I am most interest in hearing from. Why a BE?

-Carver is the only Lock that would benefit or sync with a contraption, and even then only in terms of melee with quagmire (good for tramples and impact to-hit) and Feat allowing those hits to be painful...but both of those arguments apply equally (or much better) to a boostable gargant. Except, he can also Mobility and Batten with a gargant...so the win goes G>>BE
-Ark could offer literally nothing to a BE and would get nothing out of it that another beast would not do him better. Everything he has would be AMAZING with a Gargant....so G>>>>>>>>BE in terms of synergy
-S&D can TK it, but cannot Deflect it, cannot Watcher with it, cannot Goad it, no Pack Hunter, and can offer it PF (oh wait, nope, already has) or Vision...so only Vision or TK for a BE and that is all. For a gargant he cannot TK...but everything else is golden. Golden. So G>>BE in terms of synergy
-Conclusion, I see all farrow locks better supporting and running a gargant over a BE
-Finally, farrow have a many (2 beasts, 3 units, 2 casters, 1 solo) with ranged options at the moment and so a ranged ability as all BE seem to have would not be filling any large gap. Spell/Magical abilities like the Throne of Everblight would be another matter.

Flipside
-Barnabas could not offer a BE much other than KD of targets. Lets call him equal to Carver in terms of synergy with a BE. Cannot even Warpath a gargant (interpreted based on no out-of activation movement?) so let's give him G=BE
-Calaban's feat benefits from any kill regardless so BE helps, Can boost with Carnivore, Can Occultation. So he can support a BE. Cannot occultation a gargant. So BE>G in terms of synergy
-Maelok is equal as everything that could be cast/feat support for BE can be used on Gargant so pretty even BE=G
-Conclusion is that locks are roughly equal in support either way with Calaban perhaps better occultating a BE.
-Blindwater has access to ranged croak spears and the spitter (and ritual sacrifice?)...they could perhaps use more ranges support in either case.

Then we can compare Animi or other abilities (as spells for further support, only those not self)
-Massacre can benefit BE on a charge, but benefits the gargant more fury wise so G>BE
-Lightning Strike benefits both so BE=G
-Targ has no help to a BE but a potential HUGE assist to gargants so G>>>BE

-Elasticity cannot benefit a gargant but could (potentially as not intrinsic) benefit a BE. So BE=/>G
-Spiny Growth support both equally so BE=G
-Rise helps neither at all so BE=G (0=0)


So, if you're even still reading this dreadfully long post I suppose all of that is my general take on the BE vs G issue. It seems clear to me (logically, based on that subjective arithmetic) that Farrow would be much better able to use and support a gargant than a battle engine. In turn, the gators were roughly equal either way with a at least one caster actually supporting a BE better.

[Benejeseret]

Finally, I just came up with an idea to through out for a Farrow Gargant that actually doesn't have anything to do with Dr. Arky and I think fits the theme.
Here is my logic up to the idea:

1) Farrow is a verb that means to birth (pigs)
2) Sows can get to be enormous
3) So imagine the thing that birthed Brine

The Den Mother

Weapons: 2x meaty fists. Standard for gargants and perhaps a Str in the 15-16 range to make Dr. Ark happy.
No Ranged Weapons (other than Primal Surge...)

Low Speed (4), Defence would be very low, and Arm would not be great (17 like a gunboar?). But health would be ridiculous even for a gargant she's just a massive, massive porker with a belly full of Farrow to farrow. Hight Str, Meh MAT and no real RAT. Hight Command (mom-voice when mad)

Abilities:
Commander: Yup, cause your mom always has your back
Officer: You read it here first, a Gargant Unit in leu of warlock units (starts with 3-6 grunts)
Weaning: At any time during activation can be Forced to wean 1d3 Farrow Grunts (if a Mountain King can spawn multiple 1 point solos a turn...why not?)
A Mothers Love: Gains Vengeance if a Grunt is killed. Will never target a Grunt during a Frenzy and will automatically cast Animus for free when Frenzied.

Mind the Little Ones [Animus]: Range:Self, 1 turn. This model can pass through Friendly Faction models so long as there is space for it at the end of the move. This is considered to be cast automatically during a Frenzy.

Grunts: Stats of a Grunt with no weapons (cause, were would the weanling get one?) to hitting natural P+S=6.
Abilities
Gang: a swarm of little ones, ho noes! Brings that P+S up to 8 at MAT7...still piss poor
A Mother's Love: Grunts get a Vengeance move and attack if the Den Mother looses an Aspect or is Destroyed.
Pathfinder: Follow mom's big path
Imprint Salvage If they kill a warrior unit they can give their Mother 1 Fury to equip themselves all with the POW (and perhaps range) of the enemy weapons. Cause kids playing with weapons makes every mother mad. If Den Mother is killed they can Salvage for free after killing a enemy unit.

[Fedora]

Okay, so I've gone through the shock and denial of not getting a gargantuan in the next release...

I've gotten over the pain associated with that very thing.

So you know what that means.

We're getting a beast with the rage animus for gators and an undead beast with entropic field animus right?

Right?

[maomolin]

Personally, i do not care if minions get a BE/Colossal, I just want them to be able to take a deuce on anyone who does.

[TheLoki]

Hmm. I have a feeling we will get some great tools in the upcoming release. However i think they are going to be things that help us counter the threats of yesteryear and we will be found wanting during the time of our new Colossal overlords.

[Azahul]

Cut to make this post shorter...

I do play Arkadius a lot, more than either of the others (although Sturm and Drang are my favourites), and the thought of POW 17+ Primal Shocks make me salivate, I will admit. Despite that, well, I wasn't exactly thinking in terms of who can support the Gargantuan the most. I was thinking more in terms of themes. It's not hard to imagine a Farrow Gargantuan, sure, but a Battle Engine plays on the whole rugged tech feel of the faction and the giant swamp monster thing suits Gators a lot more. Not only that, but honestly, pig shooting isn't that great, and I wouldn't mind a battle engine bringing some serious firepower. Finally, Gators could really use a Gargantuan, something with serious heavy armour cracking potential, more than Farrow. Farrow could support one better, but with Gators it would have an actual role.

Of course, if we think in terms of what factions needs/could use, the answer before either Battle Engine or Gargantuan is more units, Warbeasts, and solos.

[Feverdream]

I'm probably in the minority in saying I don't want a "universal" Gargantuan/BE for the minions. Sure, Arkadius may be a mad scientist, but he's also an alchemist. Maybe he makes some mutagenic bombs that can be launched, crippling the enemy. Plus the scavenger shtick that the Farrow have would suggest a BE more than plain ol' Arky.

As for the Den Mother idea... I was pondering that as a Warlock. A big momma sow who don't like her whelps gettin' hurt. A crazed Durgen/Gunnbjorn mix. Once again, if we're dreaming...

[Rotfell]

Well said, except a gargantuan can only move in its activation, so War Path and gargantuan don't work together. So... no special Synergie, even if Swamp Pit would work for BE and gargantuan, as long they're amphibious.

For now we I think we need some more warbeast for Farrow and much more support-models on both, since in bigger games (50pts and more) you really feel how all the other factions buff their stuff like crazy and you can't do nothing against it or mimic it...

The bigger the game, the bigger the difference.

Fluff-wise... everything can be, since if we look at other factions BE we see a lot of things, how those big guys can be cut out... Skorne is simply a beast with some riders and spears. Could almost be a gatorman-thing.
And Farrow uses everything they have or they can get, they're a bunch of thiefs and bandits and takes every chance to get more power and more territory. And if there are a way to let a Farrow grow even bigger... Carver would go for it and let the Doc do it.
I mean... they have Sturm and Drang and use this insane existence lead their army! So a really, really, really big boar would be make much more sense!

[Dan from Chicago]

BE in terms of synergy
-S&D cannot TK it, cannot Deflect it, cannot Watcher with it, cannot Goad it, no Pack Hunter, and can only offer it PF (oh wait, nope, already has) or Vision...so only Vision a BE and that is all. For a gargant he cannot TK...but everything else is golden. Golden. So G>>>BE in terms of synergy

Battle Engines can be placed, so TK would work on a battle engine but not a gargantuan ...

[Benejeseret]

Thanks Dan from Chicago and Rotfell, it seems my assessments were a bit off, but the overall effect still holds in my view. I'll go back and edit.

For the record, I completely agree that a BE could easily fit the theme and feel of a Farrow army, but as Rotfell mentioned, one could easily imagine a skorne-style BE for gators as well. I am at the moment a Farrow-only player (Rask might change that) so factor that into my statements for what it's worth.