Epic Vayl Development continued

[Necra-Chi]

I didn't want to just keep adding on to my Arcanacon thread because the topic had changed so I've started a new one just about tweaking and practicing with eVayl and her theme force. There is so much potential there but she is unforgiving and I'm trying to get as much practice as I can get. I played a game against the old witch with pretty much all the good stuff in Khador yesterday and did alright. My list was

EVayl
2 angels
ravagore
scythean
seraph
BFS
full legionnaires
full vessel
2 shepherds

This list wams asmall tweak from previous lists trying to get another gun in there but retaining what I thought were other essentials. It did alright. A lot of things went badly due to my own mistakes. I got my legionnaires killed by winterguard because i put icy grip on his kayazy instead of them. My scythean bounced off behemoth. My angels got engaged by kayazy, but the repulsioned their way out and then failed to take out the spriggan.
But my ravagore had got old witch on fire, and then a stinger missile from the spawning vessel finished her off.

This got me really thinking about the lists. Even with the Black Frost Shard around, my scythean and angels were just not killy enough. Nothing in the list is really killy enough. But the one ravagore was a star. I also want to take BFS out because they are going to be in another tournament list I want to build. And I also want to see what she can do with typhon. I have wracked my brains trying to figure something out, but then it dawned on me. How about something a little different, taking harriers to meet the flying warbeast requirement!

eVayl
3 harriers
2 ravagores
typhon
carnivean
full legionnaires
full vessel
2 shepherds

Having a steadier more shooty approach will mean the legionnaires will be at a comparable speed to the rest of the army, there is more armour staying power in there, and i can still do annoying things with refuge and admonition on the heavy hitters. Spiny growth is a good animus for these kinds of beasts, and harriers can do solo removal for me, instead of wasting valuable shots or spells. Also cheap arc nodes.

What do you think?

[Beckman]

eVayl
3 harriers
2 ravagores
typhon
carnivean
full legionnaires
full vessel
2 shepherds

Having a steadier more shooty approach will mean the legionnaires will be at a comparable speed to the rest of the army, there is more armour staying power in there, and i can still do annoying things with refuge and admonition on the heavy hitters. Spiny growth is a good animus for these kinds of beasts, and harriers can do solo removal for me, instead of wasting valuable shots or spells. Also cheap arc nodes.

What do you think?

I like it. It's a fresh take, and I think you should play it out. I like that it has more ability to pressure the opponent. Being able to purification the buffs of the opposing army is really good when you combine it with boosted POW15s. Typhon + Refuge is silly. I wish there was a way to fit in one Seraph, but I don't think it's gonna fit without losing the Legionaires.. and they're kind of a big deal. The synergies with Refuge and Typhon is too strong, and having two Ravagores really threatens the softer parts of the opponent's list in short order.

[Necra-Chi]

I'm not comfortable without a seraph but i think it still works without because of the long range shooting and the switch in emphasis away from getting up in the opponent's face with reach melee. The carnivean will be more of a counterattack model while typhon will get yoyo duty. Of course with cycling refuge i can yoyo both of them.

You are right about the legionnaires and vessel being important. They have been consistent performers for me and with a more steady approach i may be able to actually do their job of screening my heavies instead of being left behind like they usually do. Key will be good use of those harriers, but there are usually a plethora of annoying solos and UAs that need killing so that is not too bad. i need to paint up my second stinger because it is rapidly becoming a favourite horror to spawn. Stinger missile launcher FTW!

[Beckman]

Or... Or... You could take -1 Carnivean, -2 Harriers, +2 Seraphs...

What's that sound? Oh yeah, the sound of a gunline. PEW, PEW.

Then spawn a shredder ASAP.

Having heavies that can't be knocked down screen your caster can be very nice in certain situations... *cough*pKreoss*cough*.

[Necra-Chi]

Well i tried the new list last night against kromac and it went really nicely. And i learned a few new things I wasn't expecting from the list. The only thing that went badly was my buddy did a good job of taking down my legionnaires and spawning vessel acolyths without me getting corpse tokens with his ravagers and lord of the feast. It serves them right though because they were miserable on the counterattack and should have taken down the lord of the feast.

Surprise learnings. I used harriers first turn to be charge blockers against his front line because I went second and he was positioned to charge my warbeasts with ravagers etc. the harriers died but did an admirable job. I also found myself spamming spiny growth with Vayl. This was partly because of bestial and partly because a lot of her spells were not appropriate to the situation. Anyway it worked like a charm and spiny growth was probably man of the match, if that is possible. It felt a little like i was playing thagrosh. My ravagores were fantastic. Between the two of them, they shot and clawed to death, a gnarlhorn, a stalker, a whitemain, two ravagers and Kromac. Yeah you read that right. One of them survived a feated beasted out Kromac.

The game really got me thinking about how I am going to fit in the two other things I want in the list when they are released, the succubus and Farilor. I need my legionnaires to do more than just die and occasionally take out some infantry on a good day. Farilor gives me that. And the succubus free upkeep and spiny growth each turn would be huge. Anyway i can swap typhon and a harrier for angelius and those two. Angelius will be a bit lonely, but at least I'll have that large based serpentine model you were talking about.

[ArtificialDecaySynthesis]

You should try the nephilim soldier. he makes those heavies go a bit further. Especially if the succubus is handing out massacre for free. He also packs a solid punch. Plus he can be used for a tier requirement.

She gets 6 beast points right?
2 Angelius
2 ravagore
Nephilim
Full Legionaires + UA
min Vessel
Succubus
2 shepherds

[Necra-Chi]

Thats a nice idea for when I want to squeeze in the succubus and Farilor. But you've forgotten the cheaper warbeasts in that list. can afford full vessel (essential) and still have a point left over for a martyr or something.

I have been disappointed with the angels with her though. Not enough hitting power. And the sorceress gives angels almost as much as a nephilim soldier does without using fury, but without adding a flying body. That list could just as easily be a harrier and sorceress rather than a soldier.

After last night's game I definitely felt that a succubus would be REALLY nice but not "essential", but Farilor is probably more important if I had to choose. If I want Farilor I can just change typhon to a scythean and not actually lose that much. But to also fit in the succubus I have to change to an angel or seraph and drop a harrier.

The problem with lights in the five to six point range in this theme list is they are not much less expensive than the cheaper heavies. Seraph is seven points in this list. Angel or scythean is eight. It is difficult for the nephilim to compete at that price range, with the exception of the soldier saving you one of the flying beast slots. Even then the seraph does that for you for only two more points. And nephilim have a hard time justifying their points at the best of times, nevermind when competeing for space with cheaper heavies.

But you could do something like this:
E Vayl
3 soldiers
2 scytheans
Carnivean
Full legionnaires with UA
Full vessel
Succubus.

[AlexCastaway]

Necra- Are you playing scenarios with eVayl or just caster kill games. I haven't played her in a scenario game yet but I think she will have a hard time holding obj. Or it could be the way I'm playing her, CK only hoping for now attrition. Maybe I need to rethink her a little.

[Necra-Chi]

Only been playing scenarios. I haven't had a real problem yet other than having to sacrifice a warbeast here and there, but I haven't played the really jammy scenarios yet. It helps that in the versions with the angels, they are hectically fast on the first turn. The latest version is more slow and methodical. The trick has been to use refuge aggressively, instead of for retreat.

[Tommmmm]

I'm liking your alternate take on some of these lists, I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts and lists. The problem I see with the triple harrier list is the necessity to take them. It makes me feel a tad locked into the angel route just because I feel I need to spend the points better. What are you gaining spending 6 to bump a tier? 4 points free in heavies means you're down 2 from taking a non tier list in the first place. Great if you're getting mileage out of the harriers, but my gut feeling is that I wouldn't personally.

I've been running a solid 35 I've been trying to add to and I still don't like her at 50. Even with her feat I still feel like I'm trying to accomplish too much at once.

Vayl, Consul of Everblight* +6 points
* 2x Angelius*
* Scythean*
* Seraph*
* Shredder*

10 Blighted Legionnaires*
Blighted Sorceress & Hellion*
2x Shepherd*
5 Spawning Vessel*
Throne of Everblight*

I took the throne cos it's all shiny and new, I definately feel it's a softer option than using a beast with her. In the two games I used this list over the weekend I had zero problems with scenario's - I lost them both narrowly but never felt the pressure of the scenario over the game till the end.

I played Strakov in gauntlet and the throne and legionnaires played jam between themselves excellently. That game came down to an Angel taking him to 3 health late game and then I ran out of options. Next was Incursion against pdenny, which he luckily deployed his mech thrall ball opposite the left flag and it disappeared leaving them out wide. The legionnaires and throne (missed every attack against tartarus. Still think its a bad matchup against cryx) formed a cordon across the middle flag. I was one tough check away from a 2 point swing, alas. Went downhill from there.
I then promptly threw my toys out my pram and played with my Saeryn safety blanket for the next 3 games.

So yeah scenarios like incursion, diversion, sacrifice and the objective scenarios look to me like ones the speed her list puts out can easily handle.


Vayl, Consul of Everblight*
* 2x Angelius*
* Harrier*
* 2x Ravagore*
* Scythean*

10 Hex Hunters*
2x Shepherd*
5 Spawning Vessel

I felt naked without a Ravagore so this next list is taking me back to a much conifer style of play. It looks quite close to my pVayl lists from last year and I would've been a lot better off in the Cryx matchup. The hex hunters are in over the legionnaires and a shredder for now. Whilst the legionnaire did thier job jamming a zone or flag I was struggling to activate them and get vengeance done in the new time limits. That'll just take practice and swapping vengeance for battle wizard is one poison for another. The way i use the legionnaires and thier lack of hitting just leaves a sour tase in my mouth. The hunters will also help clear infantry much efficiently - hopefully. I also hoping they take some of the pressure off Vayl having to double obliterate to thin out opposing infantry.

Starting without a shredder is going to be an odd experience, but I'm hoping to spawn one ASAP. I'll also miss the sorceress and seraph from this list. The sorc has been a great toolbox and the Seraph has been a huge crutch of mine. I've recently not been using it with Saeryn and I'm really impressed with the other options I can now fit in. I do feel that slipstream is what gives Legion heavies that edge over a lot of threat ranges though.

[Neutralyze]

Played evayl and pthags at templecon. Evayl is rough vs legion as she brings ways to strip tenacity or annoying upkeeps and play far enough back to remain safe.. admonition is also a killer vs.legion.

[TormeyOHurt]

Here is my 50pt Tier theorycraft I only had the problem of 4 points i didnt know what to do with

Vayl
Angelius
Angelius
Harrier
Scythean
Scythean
Shredder
Typhon
Succubus

Max Spawning Vessel
Sorceress on Hellion

My other idea was to drop the Sorceress and bump the 2 scytheans to ravagores and take 2 shepherds to deal with the number of beasts.

[Necra-Chi]

I think i know now what my list is going to be when all the wrath releases are here.

EVayl
2 ravagores
Typhon
Naga nightlurker
3 harriers
full legionaires with farilor
full vessel
2 shepherds
succubus

The naga nightlurker really solves somes problems for this list, particularly in the context of it being an alternate to Bethayne. Medium serpentine base to protect Vayl, and that animus for the heavies, one of which is free from the succubus, to soften up a protectorate jackwall.

Bring on the new releases. I almost don't want to play her until I can do this list now.

[Beckman]

EVayl
2 ravagores
Typhon
Naga nightlurker
3 harriers
full legionaires with farilor
full vessel
2 shepherds
succubus

That list has a lot to offer. I like the Refuge Cycling on Ravagores. That's messed up.

[Necra-Chi]

Yeah I'm already thinking I would rather have a carnivean in there for spiny growth spam. Sure she could be spamming other spells, but I have found that some times just handing out a bunch of spiny growth kills certain armies, specially the ones that are faster and trickier than us.

[Beckman]

Yeah I'm already thinking I would rather have a carnivean in there for spiny growth spam. Sure she could be spamming other spells, but I have found that some times just handing out a bunch of spiny growth kills certain armies, specially the ones that are faster and trickier than us.

Meh. I agree that it can, but cycling refuge on Ravagores can win the game against a double Stalker Circle list... And it's highly likely that you'll get Tenacity from the pot.

[Neutralyze]

Why is cycling refuge on ravagores rough?

[Beckman]

Why is cycling refuge on ravagores rough?

Because you can walk up, boost to hit and damage on a POW15 at dice-2 against a stalker twice, then reposition. Even with Gnarlhorn's animus AND warpath, a Stalker can't reach you. Outside of melee, that's pretty good damage. It will force the enemy to engage.. Refuge is like bushwhack on steroids.. It will be a pain in the rear to actually engage you. Having that much positional flexibility - to walk up, shoot at anything in the enemy list while ignoring clouds and stealth... then walk backwards.. is really, really, good.. because POW15s can soften up even hard targets. Sure, the stinger exists, but you get 6" extra range this way.

I used to play eDoomy with Refuge and a bomber. Ravagores are higher POW, less AOE, but have a 21" Walk+Shoot range without the need for snipe. Cycling Refuge off of eVayl costs the same as sniping my bomber from my caster.. and eVayl is 8 FURY rather than 7.

edit: It also hurts the circle list because they will want to try to hit and run with their Stalkers. It just will not work against Refuged Ravagores.. you move up, shoot a stalker twice and move back or laterally. They run forward, they wouldn't let you get the charge, so they're 10" away. You shoot them and move back? They have to A) have lived B) have to have some way to get 16". If they get too close, you can melee them, if they stay at range, they can't close fast enough. Obviously, the scenario isn't factoring into this analysis.

The difference is that you should always get the first shot, and then be quite far away from them afterwards.

[Cromusz]

Quick questions. If an enemy model attempts a range attack and evayl hits them with Quick Draw, can the model hit be used as an arc node during vayl's next activation?

On refuge, if you hit on the first attack but miss the secon attack, can you still refuge?

[PG_Nemlock]

Her cards explain it pretty well. Quick Draw says "Once during your opponent's turn," and Spellbound says "Spellbound lasts for one turn." Seeing as Quick Draw is during your opponents turn and it only lasts that one turn you wouldn't have a free arc node come your activation.
Refuge says" ...immediately after it's combat action ends the affected model can make a full advance." As long as you hit an enemy model with an attack you can trigger Refuge after it's combat action's have ended.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Not to mention your not actually quickdrawing with the Occulus.

[Neutralyze]

Because you can walk up, boost to hit and damage on a POW15 at dice-2 against a stalker twice, then reposition. Even with Gnarlhorn's animus AND warpath, a Stalker can't reach you. Outside of melee, that's pretty good damage. It will force the enemy to engage.. Refuge is like bushwhack on steroids.. It will be a pain in the rear to actually engage you. Having that much positional flexibility - to walk up, shoot at anything in the enemy list while ignoring clouds and stealth... then walk backwards.. is really, really, good.. because POW15s can soften up even hard targets. Sure, the stinger exists, but you get 6" extra range this way.

I used to play eDoomy with Refuge and a bomber. Ravagores are higher POW, less AOE, but have a 21" Walk+Shoot range without the need for snipe. Cycling Refuge off of eVayl costs the same as sniping my bomber from my caster.. and eVayl is 8 FURY rather than 7.

edit: It also hurts the circle list because they will want to try to hit and run with their Stalkers. It just will not work against Refuged Ravagores.. you move up, shoot a stalker twice and move back or laterally. They run forward, they wouldn't let you get the charge, so they're 10" away. You shoot them and move back? They have to A) have lived B) have to have some way to get 16". If they get too close, you can melee them, if they stay at range, they can't close fast enough. Obviously, the scenario isn't factoring into this analysis.

The difference is that you should always get the first shot, and then be quite far away from them afterwards.

at 14" out you are still out of threat range of the stalkers even with gnarlhorns animus. its better to use refuge on targets that are closer to the combat.

[Cromusz]

Have you used the throne with her yet? It seems like it would be a good target for refuge.

[Necra-Chi]

No I don't have a throne. I don't think I'm ever going to go to all the expense and effort for all those tentacles and no real role that I want in an army. I've been practicing boring 35 point games lately because of some events coming up and the following is what I've been wrecking with.

EVayl
2 Angels
2 Seraphs
Full Legionnaires
Full Vessel
2 Shepherds

It doesn't look like much but it is really mean.

Managed to defeat Kara and Siege by scenario already.

[Cromusz]

Very nice! Are the point costs the main reason for taking Legionnaires over Hex Hunters?

[Necra-Chi]

Nah I just haven't painted my hex hunters, and if I go hex hunters I go Bethayne anyway. Legionnaires synergise better with spawning vessel because of the speeds they travel, and also putting hex hunters in would make the list a little to vulnerable to magic hate.

[Cromusz]

That makes sense. I have my vessel being shipped now so I just need the last piece of the puzzle, the units.

I know that last list was a smaller point list but I have a couple questions. How are you liking your list with the 2 Seraphs? Do you feel you are lacking by not having a Scythean or Ravagore for their different roles?

[Beckman]

at 14" out you are still out of threat range of the stalkers even with gnarlhorns animus. its better to use refuge on targets that are closer to the combat.

Kromac's Warpath and no other speed buffs is 14". But the real advantage is that I feel that many times there are troops hanging around. You can move up, slap a Stalker in the face, then move back out of countercharge range from a screen unit. If that unit is Druids, I want to take my potshots and not get pulled into the Stalker's charge range afterwards.

[Necra-Chi]

That makes sense. I have my vessel being shipped now so I just need the last piece of the puzzle, the units.

I know that last list was a smaller point list but I have a couple questions. How are you liking your list with the 2 Seraphs? Do you feel you are lacking by not having a Scythean or Ravagore for their different roles?

Not at the lower point levels. As I said the list doesn't look like much and it looks like it doesn't have enough of of anything, not enough anti heavy, not enough anti infantry. But it has a whole lot of denial, table control and speed, and it can hit and run and snipe all day, while jamming with the cheap stuff. And seraphs are good at assassinating warcasters with icy grip on them.

At 50points i just add carnivean and eventually the farilor and succubus.

[Alexwheeler]

yeasterday i played:

Evayl
Proteus
Scythean
Reak
Stinger
Full Hex hunters + bayal
Deathstalker
x2 sheperds

against

Edoomie
Earthborn
Mulg
Muller
Min fennblades
trollkin hero
5 troll welps

did very well on both sides of the table,
trolls went first he ran everything.
my 1st turn i took out 2 FB's with the deathstealker,
opp turn chagered with the fb's and took out 2 HH ran everything else.
my 2nd turn cast IG on earthborn, proteus advanced and rng attack draged the earthborn only did ~16 points and then refuge away, but brought it into charge rng of the scy, scy hit both times and ended up killing 3 welps and earthborn and doing ~18 damage the muller.
opp turn muller advanced into melee after healing and i admon away (not far enuf) feated and muller animi (+3 str) mulg charged and just cliped him with his club (dice + 4 .. QQ) scy died
my 3rd turn reak charged and hoped to doomie took him down to 8 health, moved evayl up shoot the reak in the back, feat and obliteration twice killed him.

all in all i think it was a good game hex hunters didnt do much and the reak was MVP!!!

[Neutralyze]

Kromac's Warpath and no other speed buffs is 14". But the real advantage is that I feel that many times there are troops hanging around. You can move up, slap a Stalker in the face, then move back out of countercharge range from a screen unit. If that unit is Druids, I want to take my potshots and not get pulled into the Stalker's charge range afterwards.

Well a good evayl force can focus fire down models like that. Then proper use of both admonition and occultation keep you safe.

[Cromusz]

my 2nd turn cast IG on earthborn,

I didn't think IG could be cast on beasts....

[Northern Ronin]

I didn't think IG could be cast on beasts....

Icy Grip is in fact Target Warrior Model / Unit, no dropping Defense of Beasts (nor shutting off their power attacks).

[Necra-Chi]

And doesn't doomy have reach?

[Necra-Chi]

I took epic Vayl to a 35 point steamroller today. It was funny in my first game I used my rearguard lost and typical of rhyas she smashed the opponent's army on feat turn but then got herself assassinated. I went with that list because it wasa bit of a jam scenario n and open field andit was retrobution so not a bad gamble. Anyway lost that one after a stupid mistake, and then just played my eVayl list the rest of the day and assassinated everyone. In one game she actually assissted the assassination with two obliterations. At the end of the day I got arize for most army points destroyed, which is partly because of the assassination, and partly because the game I lost I still killed most of the army, but I was impressed that it did so well with just four squishy heavies and a bunch of legionnaires and spawning vessel.

Highlights

Rhyas kills a phoenix by herself with two fury left. Then stuff up and cast dash thatI didn't need and then she has no tramsfers and she dies
last game spawning vessel makes three lessers, even without losing all the legionnaires. those three lessers have a significant effect on the game.
Same game legionnaires get the assassination against Grim angus (icy grip)
Against the butcher an angelius gets crit frozen by a frost axe but survives. Then I shake effects, the shepherd takes that fury, then he repulses Juggernaught away and then moves and double boosted thrust Butcher