The Patriot- Light Khador Jack (Please read before too much judgement!)

[Octavius_Maximus]

Alright, i know this is always a big can of worms to open.

I love the Khadoran view that Bigger is Better. It shows their culture quite well.

buuuuut. There is a need in Khador. Many players like me love Jacks and they want the chance to run more of them. Quantity has a quality all of its own, and light Jacks can really help in this regard.

So an idea ive come up with is a light jack which is part of the modernisation of the Khadoran military, possibly a brainchild of Irusk and his entourage. A light Jack who has no battle purpose beyond assisting the rest of the Khador Force.

So, without further ado, The Patriot.

The Patriot has rolled off production lines in Khador only recently. Many attempts to reduce the size of Khadoran Warjacks have been laughed off as 'un-Khadoran' by much of high Kommand. But recently a trio of Patriots were gifted to Supreme Kommandant Irusk, and he immediately saw their potential. Rather than attempting to make a cheaper, smaller Warjack of Khadoran Design, the Inventor used a design similar to drawings and woodcuts of a thin Jack which accompanies a great Icon of Khadoran Folklore.


Patriot Chassis Warjack

Khador Light Warjack
Spd Str Mat Rat Def Arm Cmd
7 9 6 5 14 16 -

2x Clawed Foot
Pow-1 P+S- 10

++++++
++00++
+0000+
00HH00
0MCCM0
0MCCM0


Heavy Boiler: This model can Run without having to spend focus.

There are 3 Jacks with the Patriot Chassis. each only has 1 of the following Weapons:

- The Nationalist- 3 Points
Grenade Launcher:
 Range: 10 RoF: 1 Aoe: 3 Pow: -
 May fire 1 of 3 rounds. Each round lasts for a round.
o Smoke: Place a Cloud Effect where the round lands.
o Flare: Any model within the AOE loses stealth, concealment and camouflage rules
o Freeze: Any model within the AOE takes -2 Defence

- The Loyalist- 4 points
Upgraded Cooperative Cortex
 This model grants any Warjack within 6” of it Flank (Patriot)

- The Patriot- 5 points
Refraction Crystal
 This model may spend a single point of focus to grant a single point of focus to each Friendly Faction Warjack within 4”. This ability does not affect Patriots.

[JacobtheAussie]

First thought, beyond the Khador light jack bit.

I would be completely against the Attechment Options, really what this is describing would be three different light jacks on the same chassis
In fact I think the Upgraded Cortex and the Refraction Crystal not in sync with the game. And looking at the storyline of Khador where the main reason that the concentrate on Heavy Jacks has a lot to do with the resource issues with creating standard cortexs let alone what theoretical manufacturing costs would be associated with upgraded cortexes or the refraction crystal/cortex

Second, I think the concept of having a heavy boiler on a light jack odd, not rules wise, but fluff wise wouldn't a light jack endevour to be as light as possible? Its not just the armour that make a warjack a heavy type.

The Damage grid seems... off... if you kept everything else I would except it to look more like Scrapjack replacing the Arc Node with Head boxes.

Stat wise- Speed 7!, that would be pretty much the fastest warjack I can think of. Nearly twice the speed of every other Khadorian jack...
Again I would say bring it back in line with scrapjack across the board. I mean really, in your story the guys are immitating Scrappy they don't having him to study and review so they in my opinion the abilities probably wouldn't exceed him.


Edit: Oh I didn't see a PC what where you thinking?

[Octavius_Maximus]

I would be completely against the Attechment Options, really what this is describing would be three different light jacks on the same chassis

Thats perfectly fine, i was thinking this too, i just didnt want to write too much.

In fact I think the Upgraded Cortex and the Refraction Crystal not in sync with the game. And looking at the storyline of Khador where the main reason that the concentrate on Heavy Jacks has a lot to do with the resource issues with creating standard cortexs let alone what theoretical manufacturing costs would be associated with upgraded cortexes or the refraction crystal/cortex

Khador has now occupied Lael, their war has been very successful, and some of the Rhulic factions have been a little more lenient with Khador due to their more lenient tariffs.

If Protectorate can get Cortexes by stealing them and by chaining half mad Zealots to workshops and telling them to make Cortexes, Then i think Khador should be able to have some forms of updated Cortex Technology.

I mean we even pioneered the Sub cortex!

The Refraction Crystal was going to be a greylord Mechanika. They would have honed a frozen chunk of ice into a shape which refracts magical power, as opposed to Arc Nodes, which reflect them.

Second, I think the concept of having a heavy boiler on a light jack odd, not rules wise, but fluff wise wouldn't a light jack endevour to be as light as possible? Its not just the armour that make a warjack a heavy type.

Granted, but a regular Khadoran boiler on a light Jack would basically be a Heavy Boiler. I think i added it more because i wanted this jack to be extremely focus efficient, requiring zero focus most turns.

Stat wise- Speed 7!, that would be pretty much the fastest warjack I can think of. Nearly twice the speed of every other Khadorian jack...

Harkevich can make Khadoran heavies move 6 a turn, so can Irusk (Even faster, actually), but yes those are magic.

The speed was there because they are support pieces, Spd 7 on a Juggernaut is terrifying due to its innate power. Spd 7 on this is nowhere near as nasty because its not an offensive piece.

Also, Rangers have Spd 7, can we imagine an Engine in legs cant reach the same speed?

Edit: Oh I didn't see a PC what where you thinking?

I didnt add PC because i wanted to get a feel for other ideas.

[PG_kerensky]

At this point in time, if PP let this model roll off the assembly line and into stores, you'd be looking at a 10p cost to deploy it and every non-khadoran player in the game would still cry foul.
Spend a focus to give other jacks a focus? Give Flank to Khadoran jacks? No chance in hell, sorry mate.

If the Patriot was ever to exist-
- Damage grid would go down about 4 boxes
- Speed 5 tops. Its Khador, for them thats a fast jack.
- DEF 12, for them thats like watching Agent Smith dodge bullets.
- No Flank granting
- the grenade launcher is fine, but probably just POW10 AOE3s that make cloud effect for a round.
- Still be PC5 or 6.

Keep working man, I make 2-3 homebrews and the key is Balance between what you'd want to play v what your faction does v How it affects the balance of the game.

Luke

[Octavius_Maximus]

At this point in time, if PP let this model roll off the assembly line and into stores, you'd be looking at a 10p cost to deploy it and every non-khadoran player in the game would still cry foul.
Spend a focus to give other jacks a focus? Give Flank to Khadoran jacks? No chance in hell, sorry mate.

The Patriot (and its 2 other forms, the Nationalist and the Loyalist) All cause ZERO damage on their own. They are purely utility units.

Spend a Focus to give other Jacks nearby focus? I dont see why that would be so overpowered. Its not the hardiest of Light Jacks, and because its pure utility I would think that powerful abilities are par the course.

Its like the Vassal. He is 2 points of AMAZING Jack Utility, able to give them extra moves (which can make them avoid enemy Jack Attacks) or Extra Shots/Attacks. He himself can be relatively difficult to take out (not just shoot-kill)

- Damage grid would go down about 4 boxes

Because... his arm and defence are relatively low already, he can be taken out by shooting rather easily, especially becuase he lacks the armour and Defence Bonuses that other factions can give to their Important Light Jacks.

- Speed 5 tops. Its Khador, for them thats a fast jack.

That makes no sense. A New Chassis is not bound by the design of previous ones. This isnt a Juggernaut or Devastator Chassis Jack. Its its own Chassis and thus has its own design. Khadors engines are massively powerful, it says this numerous times, the speed comes from the amount of armour and weapons layered onto them. Remove the armour and weapons and all you have is a pair of legs with an amazing engine.

- DEF 12, for them thats like watching Agent Smith dodge bullets.

Same as above, Also the Black Ivan is Defence 12 Natively. If a heavy Khadoran Warjack can get Def 12 (and dodge) so can this speedy jack.

- No Flank granting

Is granting Flank really so overpowered on a non reach model with no attacks? It can be used to help a heavy Jack against another Heavy Jack. That is almost it.

- the grenade launcher is fine, but probably just POW10 AOE3s that make cloud effect for a round.

Why? Why not have multiple types of rounds for a utility vehicle?

- Still be PC5 or 6.

No damned way! The Loyalist (Grenade Launcher) would be 3 points max. The Nationalist (Flank) would be 4 and the Patriot (Refractor) would be 5.

I think you are overestimating the power of a light Jack with 2 Pow 10 attacks. Utility isnt powerful on its own, it needs to be capitalised on.

Keep working man, I make 2-3 homebrews and the key is Balance between what you'd want to play v what your faction does v How it affects the balance of the game.

The Patriot allows for mass Khador Heavy Jacks to exist for those who want them. The Refraction Crystal helps alleviate focus issues for controlling Jacks, but only on Nearby Jacks. If you dont want to run a small block of Jacks, you will need to run 2 Patriots at least so you can spread the front area of your force.

The Loyalist with its Grenade Launcher is cheap and gives a few small bonuses to your force. Dropping Cloud Effects, Minusing enemy defences and removing stealth/camoflague/concealment are all useful abilities to have, but are all dependent on hitting the models in question. Regardless of all that, there still is no attack here. its pure battlefield Utility. Helping your models survive to get there, hit their enemies and attack those who have defensive abilities.

Khador doesnt have a way to strip upkeeps, so something which helps them against other special rules can be nice to have.

The Nationalist is the only one of the Patriot Chassis Jacks that really wants to get into close combat. Even then, its not for its own sake. It is used for helping take out key large models. If the enemy doesnt recognise this threat early and allows the Nationalist AND a heavy to get into combat with one of their heavies, then yes, that heavy is going to get scrapped most likely. But that was the failure of the opponent to recognise the threat.

I dont think my homebrew is as overpowered as you all think.

They do diverge from the norm, but i think that is a good thing in a faction as static as Khador.

[PG_kerensky]

Khador DOES have a way of stripping upkeep spells. We call her Eiryss, Angel of Vengeance.

Sorry mate, but if you do not think that Flank not a bad idea with Khador Jack, you need a serious rethink. Khadoran Jacks already have the biggest unbuffed P+S available in Warmachine and to offer flank to the mix is asking for trouble. The balancing factor for them is a general lower then average MAT/RAT to other factions that usually makes Khadoran players boost the attack and letting the damage roll go because average rolls of 2 D6 on a Khadoran heavy will see any opponent cry. Now for argument sake let us add a super fast, super cheap, utility light into the mix that runs into melee with an opponent model before you charge it with your heavies. Call your opponent an average Heavy with Def12 and Armor 19, your attacking them with your primary weapon. Heres where we go.
Behemoth: MAT 9 with P+S 12 Armor Piercing with 4 D6. Average 26 Damage charge, 13 Damage average with each additional hit.
Destroyer/Decimator/Spriggin: MAT 8 with P+S 18 with 4 D6. Average 13 Damage charge, 10 Damage average with each additional hit.

Rough figures there only. With the additional MAT from flank plus the extra dice of damage a fully focused heavy can make 3 additional attacks, giving them 4 attacks with the primary weapon. Average is called that for a reason but its clear just there that this combination would unbalance the Khadoran warjacks into an unacceptable range.

Your very unrealistic with PCs but I'm not going to argue that at this point, purely from the stand point that these jacks would never be made.
* Khador suffers from a lower croxtex production then demand. Even with extra production capacity from llael, Heavy warjacks are the preference because of factory tooling and the Khadoran belief in the tried and true.
One could argue "they can convert captured llaelese light warjack factories and use them for these new lights."
Nope, those factories are either making Vanguards, belong to the Northern Crusade or have been retooled to make Khadoran heavies. (if such factories existed).
You are correct that these jacks diverge from the norm and there in lies your own counter argument: Khador NEVER makes something purely for utility. It goes against everything they believe philiosophically. Every able bodied Khadoran learns to fight, ready to defend their nation in the time of need and the lives of those whose hearts beat northern blood. Support models are non-combatants and with Cortex production so critical they would never waste valuable materials on something incapable of fighting for the motherland.
Even their mechanics fight!
Lets ignore all this logic for a moment and go back to the base stats. We would be dealing with new machines created by engineers used to building Khadoran heavies and shocktrooper armor. How do they go from this to SPD 7 lights that hit like Llaelese wine growers and carry for support tech then a Cygnaran science institute? One cannot jump stat lines like this into a faction of people who wouldn;t understand how to manufacture it. It would be like the Iosans suddenly appearing with a Behemoth.

Sorry mate, if you think khador will make a light warjack then its a combatant and nothing more. Maybe a light gun platform or something faster (SPD5-6) that would protect thier casters with shield guard (Cough-vanguard-cough) but I cannot see a way fluff wise, design wise or play wise, it would ever be a utility support light.

Keep trying though.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Khador DOES have a way of stripping upkeep spells. We call her Eiryss, Angel of Vengeance.

Strictly, thats not Khador to be honest.

I personally hate mercs, especially mindless ones like Eiyrss. But whatever. Khador does have access to her, as does everyone else.

Sorry mate, but if you do not think that Flank not a bad idea with Khador Jack, you need a serious rethink. Khadoran Jacks already have the biggest unbuffed P+S available in Warmachine and to offer flank to the mix is asking for trouble. The balancing factor for them is a general lower then average MAT/RAT to other factions that usually makes Khadoran players boost the attack and letting the damage roll go because average rolls of 2 D6 on a Khadoran heavy will see any opponent cry. Now for argument sake let us add a super fast, super cheap, utility light into the mix that runs into melee with an opponent model before you charge it with your heavies. Call your opponent an average Heavy with Def12 and Armor 19, your attacking them with your primary weapon. Heres where we go.
Behemoth: MAT 9 with P+S 12 Armor Piercing with 4 D6. Average 26 Damage charge, 13 Damage average with each additional hit.
Destroyer/Decimator/Spriggin: MAT 8 with P+S 18 with 4 D6. Average 13 Damage charge, 10 Damage average with each additional hit.

So your an opponent and you see across from you a Behemoth within 7.5" of your heavy Jack and a Nationalist, whom you know will give that Behemoth Flank if it is in combat with your heavy at the same time. Your choice is to:
1. Stand your Warjack there, unbuffed, allow both of those warjacks to live and let them charge you (Sorry, you said 3 extra attacks, that means a range of 4.5" from the Behemoth)
2. Walk the Warjack away slightly and kill the Nationalist.

The Nationalist has a huge potential, but all he is really adding is another thing for your opponent to worry about. He's next to useless to our Jacks against any enemy which isnt a heavy Jack or a Warcaster.

Edit: oh and by the way, Behemoth+Nationalist would be 17 points together. 17 points should be able to kill a heavy if thats its job, right? (Especially if you need 4 focus [1 to charge, 3 to the Behemoth] to get it)

* Khador suffers from a lower croxtex production then demand. Even with extra production capacity from llael, Heavy warjacks are the preference because of factory tooling and the Khadoran belief in the tried and true.

The Khadoran belief in the Tried and True is disappearing with the modernisation of the Khadoran military. Otherwise jacks like the Devastator Chassis or the Behemoth would never exist. Irusk, our most Important Kommandant and ear of the Empress, is leading this change.

Not only that, but lower Quantity of Cortexes just means that shouldnt they Greylords focus on Quality of Cortexes? Already we have a Warjack who can deflect blast damage away from itself and others through its advanced Cortex, as well as the innovative subcortex technology of the Behemoth.

Lets ignore all this logic for a moment and go back to the base stats. We would be dealing with new machines created by engineers used to building Khadoran heavies and shocktrooper armor. How do they go from this to SPD 7 lights that hit like Llaelese wine growers and carry for support tech then a Cygnaran science institute? One cannot jump stat lines like this into a faction of people who wouldn;t understand how to manufacture it. It would be like the Iosans suddenly appearing with a Behemoth.

It happens because we arent dealing with a country of the Borg where everyone believes in the same thing regardless of anything around them.

If only the heaviest and strongest were deemed fit for battle, firstly women wouldnt be allowed in the military (rather than encouraged to join). Secondly things like the Winter Guard and Widowmakers would not exist. Thirdly, the Old Witch as a Spirit of khador would not have a light Jack as her companion who is meant to be tricky and quick.

No, culture is far more varied than that, and Khadoran production proves that it is innovative in cortex design (as opposed to the Cygnarites, who have a 'one cortex fits all' mentality) and if it see's a need for utility lights, it would make them.

Also, the Iosians are building Colossi. Isnt that Stranger than a Behemoth?

[redwurm]

khador does have light jacks they're called man'o'war. With that said the name sounds more cygnar than khador reminds me of the minuteman. That being said i like it with the exception of the ridiculously high speed and defense.

[PG_ForsakenPoptart]

These are just knee-jerk reactions, take them as you will:

I'm going to echo everyone here and say that SPD7 is WAY too high, I could see maybe a 6 if you drop the heavy boiler, or a 5 with it.

The Nationalist; Excellent idea, but at 3 points it should be like the Avenger in that the AOE only takes effect if you hit with the attack. Otherwise, bump him up to 4.

The Loyalist; Make it give Flank to ONE friendly, and give him Sac Pawn specific to warjacks.

The Patriot: He should spend the focus to gain Power Booster, and be able to grant a single focus to a jack that has not already been allocated focus. Easy fix, still incredibly powerful. Karchev's new best friend.

[Harbylove]

Spd 7 is stupid with the sort of speed buffing crack Khador is known for. Just one of these with Vlad1 is going to be really, REALLY stupid. I mean...more stupid than Haley2's feat. A patriot near a group fo juggers on his feat turn is going to make sad pandas and lose you friends. And Khador needs absolutely no additional help in the focus effeciency area. For a 5 point jack, turning one focus into a potential of a gabillion is just too good. Poptart has a good fix for that.

[Octavius_Maximus]

The Patriot: He should spend the focus to gain Power Booster, and be able to grant a single focus to a jack that has not already been allocated focus. Easy fix, still incredibly powerful. Karchev's new best friend.

I dont understand. Spend a focus to gain a focus?

[Turbulence]

Refraction Crystal - This model may spend a single point of focus to grant a single point of focus to each Friendly Faction Warjack within 4”.

Sorry Mate, but that does seem to be a way to cheat the system, turning one point of focus into multiple points of focus. You could bring two Patriots and then three heavies. As long as they are in the measurements you could easily turn 2 points of focus into 6. The Patriot just becomes a multiplier for X amount of other jacks. It totally cheats focus management. It may keep your 'jacks grouped up a bit, but still. And even though you have a Greylord create such a thing, it totally beats all of Cygnar's magical science? It might be better written where it can put the point of focus to a single 'jack outside of the warcaster's range. Something like...

This model adds range for focus allocation to any Friendly Warjack within his battle group to other warjacks with 4" of this model.

Oh and the Nationalist should be at least 4 points, if not 5.

[Octavius_Maximus]

Refraction Crystal - This model may spend a single point of focus to grant a single point of focus to each Friendly Faction Warjack within 4”.

Sorry Mate, but that does seem to be a way to cheat the system, turning one point of focus into multiple points of focus. You could bring two Patriots and then three heavies. As long as they are in the measurements you could easily turn 2 points of focus into 6. The Patriot just becomes a multiplier for X amount of other jacks. It totally cheats focus management. It may keep your 'jacks grouped up a bit, but still. And even though you have a Greylord create such a thing, it totally beats all of Cygnar's magical science? It might be better written where it can put the point of focus to a single 'jack outside of the warcaster's range. Something like...

This model adds range for focus allocation to any Friendly Warjack within his battle group to other warjacks with 4" of this model.

Oh and the Nationalist should be at least 4 points, if not 5.

Hey, feel free to offer suggestions beyond just tearing it down.

I mean, Cygnar may have the "flashy" technology, but Khador is just as advanced in many ways.

Im trying to make a way that the Patriot could help alleviate the focus problems Khador casters have and give them the ability to run multiple warjacks. I thought a focus multiplier was a good idea, because its a unit with no other abilities and the sort of thing which would be an easy target.

[Turbulence]

I'm trying to make a way that the Patriot could help alleviate the focus problems Khador casters have and give them the ability to run multiple warjacks.

I'm not trying to tear you down, but Focus Allocation is a problem for every faction not just Khador. You're idea of multiplying is unlimited and unbalanced. It offers Free Focus points the only limit is how many 'jacks you can squeeze into the Patriot's radius of 4". Your multiplier only decided by the number of Patriots you take. So if you spend a single point of focus on each Patriot you could easily load two points of focus on every other warjack in these Patriots radius's So 2 point of focus could easily become 4 or 6 or 8 points of focus if you cram in the heavies, and that not even to say that it effects other Patriots then doubling the modifier. Do you see where the math runs away quickly? And that would still leave your Warcaster with almost a full focus.

[PG_ForsakenPoptart]

I'm not trying to tear you down, but Focus Allocation is a problem for every faction not just Khador. You're idea of multiplying is unlimited and unbalanced. It offers Free Focus points the only limit is how many 'jacks you can squeeze into the Patriot's radius of 4". Your multiplier only decided by the number of Patriots you take. So if you spend a single point of focus on each Patriot you could easily load two points of focus on every other warjack in these Patriots radius's So 2 point of focus could easily become 4 or 6 or 8 points of focus if you cram in the heavies, and that not even to say that it effects other Patriots then doubling the modifier. Do you see where the math runs away quickly? And that would still leave your Warcaster with almost a full focus.

Turbulence makes a good point here- easy fix is FA: C, and make this ability (because let's face it, it's pretty powerful) a once per game ability.
Give him another ability, like the Bump animus on the Blitzer (I think?) and call him done.