The Slayer?

[tzeentchling]

I don't (yet) play Cryx, but there's something I've noticed. Despite its presence in the battle box, it is almost unheard of for a Cryx list to contain a Slayer helljack, except perhaps at very low points. As far as I can tell, it's not that the Slayer is a poor jack - it's more that the Deathjack and Nightmare, and to a lesser but still significant extent the Seether, all outclass it severely. Am I right in thinking this? I mean, it doesn't even have an entry in the Eliminate/Reanimate sticky here in the forum.

Is there ever a time (outside of battlebox games) that you would include a Slayer in your competitive lists? What casters can make the Slayer really work, or make it worth-while to take? The only one I've seen is in Mortenebra tier lists, where they're only 5 points, and even there the DJ is chosen first.

[Rabid Bunny]

As a firm proponent of Slayers, its more the fact that Cryx casters love their focus and that we have other options that outstrip it. 1 point less is 6 Bane Thralls which don't need focus to run, or the Seether which is 3 points more, focus efficient, a higher mat and an amazing chain attack. Also, def 13/arm 17 is really fragile, once they start taking damage they lose systems quickly. They're the main reasons you don't see them more often, which is a shame. They're also not overly tricksy to use, running one with 1 focus to charge, combo strike for high arm or 3 base attacks to kill infantry, thats about it.

As you've mentioned, Mortenebra loves her some 5 point Slayers, they're cheap as chips and with free charge and boosted attack roll against living models from Terminal Velocity and a focus from a Warwitch Siren they're good to go. With Terminal Velocity and Recalibration up, they are nice overrun triggers and can be assassination pieces if you've lost the other typical Mortenebra assassination warjacks (Deathjack, Harrower, Reaper)

[Sanctjud]

Not only DJ/Nightmare/Seether Tzeent----ENEMY OF GRANDFATHER NURGLE....ahem.... but Wrong Eye and Snapjaw are another option in the Seether weight.

In addition, for 1 point more you can get the Reaper, which IMO is well worth the bump in cost.
It sports reach, a gun, and sustained attack to make up for losing out on combo and the other attack.

These jacks are generally depressingly fragile...so you want options that are self-sufficient, or do something very specific for the list, before they are busted.

[pridefall]

For it's points, the Slayer just doesn't really cut it. As it is, a 5 point Def 13 Arm 17 has no place in any games above 25 points with any caster outside of Mortenbra, and most -- if not all -- of our casters have very little specific things that effect Warjacks in particular. That, or they''re very, very focus hungry.

The fact of the matter is that this is what the Slayer has going for it:
- Spd 6, 9 on the charge
- Two initial pow 16 attacks, one initial pow 14 attack.
- Mat 7, def 13, are 14.
- Combo strike at pow 22.

However, at six points I can also get:
- One unit of Bile Thralls
- One min unit of Bane Thralls
- One min unit of Bane Knights
- Two Pistol Wraiths
- Two min units of McThralls or the prerequisite Unit + Necrosurgeon unit

And these options are just a bit better to have in your army than one Def 13, arm 17 jack that will be destroyed by other lights in a full round of combat.

[NoGamingInMississippi]

Slayers are not bad jacks. Folks that say so should look at how many boxes Nightmare and the Seether have, the same as the Slayer so they die just as fast but cost 4 to 3pts more. They also hit at the same PS (if not pray). It's a good littie jack, you well not use it all the time but it's not like your hurting your self if you do.

[Cambrian]

@Pridefall: Slayers are 6 points, but given only Morty takes them it's understandable why you would think 5. :P

Honestly Seethers generate effectively 2 free focus, and have the better MAT and chain attack, but even they are something I avoid since 9 points for a jack that fragile is a lot... I like the idea of using Seethers with a caster that can protect it; eSkarre or the Coven are some good examples.

Honestly outside of casters able to create pseudo focus with battlegroup spells/buffs (aka morty) the slayer has no place in a list since our casters want to cast away their focus or camp it. Even without those considerations the reaper is still often a better option.

[RafiK]

Slayer has its options but is far from auto-include (even for such puny pts).

In my pDeneghra tier4 list I have 2 Slayers (although I'm not a fan of this helljack).
They just fill my helljack slots in tier list, and can be played quite autonomous (rarely get any focus, maybe later in tourn 3-4).

Jack is very cheap for a heavy with such a decent stats. Slayer can hit things even without boosting, has 3 base attacks, has nice SPD.
That's right: not many cryxian casters like to share focus, and we have so much more efficient options.
Anyway it's Slayer who is there when you need cheap and solid heavy.

I also think that Slayer-spam with Morty is quite fun

[various]

Personally i'm a big fan of the Slayer: low cost hard hitting, two open fists, and a good combo attack. Normally i squeeze one into my list and they perform pretty well, especially if you can either debuff the enemy or buff the Slayer. Six points for a heavy warjack is an absolute bargain and most of my lists (especially the smaller ones ) feature a Slayer as my pure combat 'Jack. Don't pay too much attention to what other people say: what works for them may not suit your playstyle or the opponents that you are facing. Try things and decide for yourself before you relegate a model to the sidelines, half the fun of any system is working out for yourself what tactics/units suit you. Several people have said bad things about the Reaper Helljack but from personal experience i've found it to be extremely useful. In the words of Public Enemy "Don't believe the hype!".
various.

[Mathai]

I like the Slayer. Sure it may be me still not having all the models and using what I got to its fullest before discarding it as useless, but Slayers seems to do exactly what I want them to eight times out of ten. Fair power in a cheap body that can have its output increased with the right warcaster buffs and maybe a little focus. Just because my casters like that focus alot and dont always share well, there are times when a couple focus can be spared. I'm not always going to be casting all the spells I can. Not to mention Warwitches always help out.

I especially like putting a Slayer with Venethrax when not playing a tiered list. Arc nodes for him are less used than another big fist, if I'm not going Castathrax anyway, and a Slayer leaves no dent on his overall points.

Now I do find myself using him less as I get more options to my army. Its not that the Slayer is bad as much as Cryxian infantry really is just that much better. But that doesnt mean you are using a bad model by taking a Slayer into battle.

[Island]

The problem with the slayer is that it doesn't do anything fancy. It delivers some basic attacks at good mat and decent power, but that's it. Same function as any of our infantry performs, and they do it for "free" (no focus). The reason people take the other jacks is they have access to special stuff like Drag, Free charge/Run, Free focus, Prey, Grab&Smash, Spellcasting, Reach, Sustained attack, etc etc. Slayer is just vanilla, and in the army of flavor that is Cryx he suffers.

[Fandeath]

Building up from that battle box at the 15 point level, it's not too terrible to run the slayer with a deathripper, a defiler, and a min. unit of bane thralls. That list performs better for me than two deathrippers and the min unit of thralls + UA + Tartarus (which lots of people suggested I run). Maybe I'm just bad with infantry, but I much prefer having the Slayer over the UA and Tartarus at that level.

[chrisBatson]

I like them in groups of 5 or more, which I find myself running more and more frequently.

[Warlordtheft]

The slayer in larger point games should only be considered if you're looking for a really cheap heavy hitter (sometimes in 35 pt games all I have for a heavy is 6 points). I've also done lists where I have fielded 2 of them, to overwelm the opponent with choices. The DEF 13 means that most Jacks and warbeasts will be boosting to hit (even if slightly buffed) which will help in some ways. More than likely the slayer will be trashed if not outright scrapped if the opponent gets his strike in first. On the counter strike, not so much since the P+S22 combo strike can really hurt just about everything out there. Realistically if you were running slayer heavy, I'd stop at three (no matter which caster) as you'll need 1 focus to charge and 1 to boost to hit (Barring a Menoth or Khadorian Heavy).

[Klaw]

I like the Slayer too, mostly in smaller points games, where those 6 pts are all you can afford for a more than decent damage output on a small footprint. I have a very successful pSkarre build at 35, that uses the Slayer for the heavy lifting. The Slayer isn't meant to take damage, it is probably the pinnacle of the "glass cannon" thing Cryx as a faction has.

With Mortenebra, the Slayer becomes ridiculously cheap, and three Slayers always make up the bulk of my Mortenebra lists, even over the Deathjack (especially with SR2012, where Deathjack tends to go with eSkarre). Under Terminal Velocity, one Slayer ends a caster often before he even starts spending focus. This might be more because of Mortenebra than because of the Slayer, but still.

I guess by playing Mortenebra more often these days (in a build that lies between Lamoron's flying circus and the bog standard Tier IV setup), I have really grown fond of the Slayer - it's an excellent road bump, it blocks line of sight, and if your opponent isn't careful, it kills lots of stuff very dead. Because of its relatively low cost, one could even afford to send it after pesky solos - it's only 5 points you're committing, anyway.

Klaw

[raptor1313]

This kind of reminds me of a Khador thread on why they don't often take the Juggernaut.

The Slayer's not a bad jack. It's got speed, accuracy, and hitting power, as folks have mentioned. SPD6, MAT7, and a PS22 combo strike are pretty nasty for cracking open armor. If you need to bang up smaller targets, you've got three initials.

The problems folks have laid out are pretty valid, though:

1) Fragile
It's a Cryx jack; you were expecting? The crab-jacks are as close as it gets to durable outside of the Deathjack, and DJ's durability is in part based on its ability to feed on souls. Swift melee jacks are unlikely to be in a position for a Necrotech to fix, should one be on the field.

2) Focus-hungry
This, I think, is the biggest one. You're unlikely to rock multiples with a focus-multiplier (IE: Morty). Most casters are either going to be casting or camping, and

3) Incremental Cost
This is really what I'm getting at with the Juggernaut comparison. For 3 more points, you get the Seether, which goes a ways towards alleviating the focus-hungry issue. For six more, you get the Deathjack, which gets you a ton more capabilities and some actual durability. One more point gets you a Reaper, which brings Drag to the table (still a bit hungry, but you get a lot of fun options with Drag that make folks think twice, and must be planned for in more depth than 'Don't Get Charged By a Non-Reach Melee Heavy'

That being said, when points are tight or you need a throw-away whompin' stick, the Slayer fits the bill.

Note that I'm not advocating disposing of the Slayer intentionally; I'm just saying that once you commit it, you gotta admit that its defensive stats aren't going to keep it alive if the enemy decides it should die. (Ok, that's kind of a theme in Warmachine, but if you can hit a Slayer, you can hurt it, between the ARM17 and the grid).

[The Horror]

The biggest reason I don't run the slayer is because non of the casters that I run have the focus to support it. Most cryx casters are only willing to give up 1 or 2 focus a turn, if any so the slayer is usually left out of my lists in favor of a more focus efficient jack.

[Talking Head]

Slayers are not bad.

It might not have reach, but SPD 6 base is almost as good.

It has solid mat and a good number of base attacks for something that can boost.

It is cheap.

Blast damage won't kill it. At least not as easily as troops.

Sometimes you've got so many models on the board already that taking up less real estate can be beneficial.

It can 2 hand throw or slam as a large base.

The Seether is 150% the cost and is usually overkill once you get done with the ARM debuffs.

Cryx casters don't like to give up focus, but with SPD 6, 3x attacks, and MAT 7, you often don't even need to give it focus to kill stuff, and if it is in a good position feeding it focus can be worth it.

[2LiveIs2Die]

The only time I really consider slayers is in asphyxious1 or mortenebra's theme for a point cost of 5.
Rarely I will use one with skarre1 as a secondary jack, I usually take seethers, though.
They are not bad but if its a jack you are wanting there are several options avalible for a minimal increase in point cost that offer so much more.

Cankerworm: less points, ad, stealth, path finder
Reaper: reach, ranged weapon, drag, sustained attack
Seether: effective 2 free focus, mat 8, sex in mouth
Nightmare: super slayer

[Gaspy]

Slayers fail because we have NO casters who can properly support them. Imagine in Hordes:

4 Fury beast with 3 initial attacks (2 of which are P+S15), Combo Strike, Open Fists, Speed 6, Def 13... for 6 points (5 with a tier bonus). That faction would EXPLODE.

Morty can run them better than anyone else, but even then, she's not actually giving them any focus. She's passively buffing them and hoping their 3 initial attacks get the job done. A Slayer running at full capacity with Morty needs 3 focus, AND terminal velocity, and she can't scale that kind of focus investment across multiple jacks.

This is why (across all WM factions) you will always see more infantry than Jacks, and Hordes will continue to see more beasts.

[pridefall]

First off, it's two P+S16, one P+S 14 attack.

Really, though, you can't and shouldn't compare WM "jacks to Hordes Beasts simply because of their stat differences. If the slayer were to magically become a Beast, you know it'd have low FURY both fluff-wise and game-wise due to how Cryx builds its "jacks -- or would "harvest" -- its beasts. So, really, it would probably be FURY 2-3, and have a low threshold to compensate, and also following the rules for beasts it would have Higher DEF and lower ARM, making it even EASIER to kill.

Think of a Shadowhorn Satyr. They're nearly identical for only one point more, and you don't see Circle exploding over themselves. I see where you're coming from, though, and I also think that as long as FOCUS works as it works and FURY works as it works the game is always going to be slightly unbalanced -- that's just personal opinion, though.

[BigK42]

I don't usually field slayers because 1) I take crabjacks very often and they're s better investment for focus, and 2) I think slayers are too fragile. I'm taking one in an eskarre list this weekend as one of three heavies, but mostly because they have a lot of attacks that I can use for backlash, even without focus.

[2LiveIs2Die]

Since no one else has said it yet, his third attack is P+S 12, not 14.

[pridefall]

D'oh!

(Ten characters)

[Lamoron]

D'oh!

(Ten characters)

It's tough being new to the game, but consider checking your facts for a while, until you're comfortable with the rules. We all make mistakes, no matter how brilliant a player you are/become, but posting wrong information causes a lot of confusion

[IAN LACEY]

I have used them quite extensively in pAsphyxious' Tier list. I find that with three in a list, I can have two up-front hitting one target, with a third in reserve, or getting much-needed attention from the necrotechs. I am going to try a variation; Reapert to, (hopefully), reel something in; Seether to get the Grab & Smash knockdown, and then the Slayer to coup-de-grace' (Cankerworm tends to under-perform).

[chrisBatson]

Slayers fail because we have NO casters who can properly support them. Imagine in Hordes:

4 Fury beast with 3 initial attacks (2 of which are P+S15), Combo Strike, Open Fists, Speed 6, Def 13... for 6 points (5 with a tier bonus). That faction would EXPLODE.

Morty can run them better than anyone else, but even then, she's not actually giving them any focus. She's passively buffing them and hoping their 3 initial attacks get the job done. A Slayer running at full capacity with Morty needs 3 focus, AND terminal velocity, and she can't scale that kind of focus investment across multiple jacks.

This is why (across all WM factions) you will always see more infantry than Jacks, and Hordes will continue to see more beasts.

Morte with maxed slayers in her theme list is quite well supported.

[eddie]

theres only one reason you buy slayers. for a mortenenbra tier list or for the plastic jack kit to make them a reaper. Don't stick them in anyother list aside from Mortenebra he will be outshined in any way

[Sanctjud]

Personally, I think it's a trap to spam Slayers.
The gold nugget are the cheaper Reapers IMO.

[IAN LACEY]

And the tweaked list I spoke of? Yes, the Reaper and Seether were handy, but the upgrade from Slayers cost me my arc nodes. Zo, back to three Slayers!

[correlation2]

5 pt Slayers is stupid.

Yes I'm bitter.

[eddie]

woo go reaper get that pow 12 shot then a pow 16...or one reaper pulls in and slayer charges with combo smite. they work better together

[bodare]

The Slayer is quite good at just standing there as a deterrent too. I run eDenny with Nightmare and some banes with the banes on top and Nightmare behind ready to beat down everything heavy, and just putting your Slayer to one side in front of something big is very effective in terms of just scaring the opponent.

With some nice placing my Slayer basically locked a Throne of Everblight and Legions character unit (can't remember name ATM) in place and made them have to kill it.
It took them two rounds to do it, and gave me the opportunity for a 'Lock kill with Nightmare. Don't merely think of it in terms of big numbers, keep in mind that the enemy never can ignore it.

[PG_LawofThirds]

The slayer comes down to this: You're paying 6 points into a melee light. In warmachine. Where you can't just heal them once and get going again. No animus. A decent hit or two basically reduces it to slag.

But.... It's one of our few cheap warjacks that can actually dent armor (granted, a single 22 is much less effective than say... a pow 18 hammer all the time). Most of the time our lists already have multiple ways of dealing with high armor better than the slayer and thus our jack points tend to go towards things that our infantry can't do, like arc or cast spells, or have guns.

Slayer is an option. It's just usually not the best one.

[Aggy]

I field slayers when I face Khador. The combo strike from two slayers will finish off any Khador heavy in one round. That is the only reason to take a slayer. The seether is my go to jack for any list I make.

[Gaspy]

I field slayers when I face Khador. The combo strike from two slayers will finish off any Khador heavy in one round. That is the only reason to take a slayer. The seether is my go to jack for any list I make.

2 Combo-striking, charging Slayers is 24 damage on Armour 20... not nearly enough to kill a standard Khador heavy, never mind a Spriggan, Devastator, or Behemoth. Sure you can factor in all sorts of debuffs, but a charging Bane thrall is averaging 6.5 damage on the charge (each), is topping out at 37 on a single hit, whereas the Slayer tops out at 34. Also, a buff or debuff benefits the unit more than the jack(s). The Slayer goes faster (without Curse) but takes at least one point of focus from your caster (TV excepted). With Curse, the Bane Thralls are better across the board. Even without the UA, Max Banes + Tarterus cost the same as 2 Slayers, have more board control, and will kill MUCH more per turn if given the chance. With dedicated (de)buffing units like Saytixis Raiders are better still as they can apply damage with Feedback while pinging the jack, with pSkarre? better again.

Even at 5 points with Morty, the inability to support with focus to buy additional attacks Slayers are paper-thin P+S22 single-hit cruise missiles, only reaching 9.5 inches. With everything else Cryx has to offer, spamming these does not seem like a winning notion.

[correlation2]

I think TV only applies against living models ( not sure ) so they'd be even less effective in that case against say, a Juggernaut.

[Sheer_Falacy]

I think TV only applies against living models ( not sure ) so they'd be even less effective in that case against say, a Juggernaut.

The threat and boosted attack are only against living but the free charges/power attacks are vs anything.

[frozenwastes]

Aggy said finish off heavies, so I'm assuming he's hitting them with something else other than a single slayer charging with one combo strike + additional attacks.

I've never felt there's anything wrong with slayers. When I've put one on the table it was always useful. With three attacks and MAT7, they can deal well with infantry as well. Throw out a buff or debuff depending on your caster and they'll get even better. I generally don't give them too much focus unless they absolutely need it to win the game or do something important. When I can, I like to use a warwitch to supply the needed focus for charging and whatnot, but she may have duties elsewhere making an arc node run or something.

That said, I value reach as one of the best things on a heavy, so I've been finding the extra point and getting a reaper in many of my games.

[Top]

Slayers work OK with my pGoreshade. His spell which reduces the enemy Armor by 2 is kinda like a poor man's damage boost.

[zeezok]

Slayers are not all bad, everybody loves to pick things out and say that they are unilaterally better in any given scenario (Seether would probably be the prime example) but a Seether is 3 more points. Sometimes those points can be the difference in another part of your list. It could be that Slayers are more viable in lower point games since the points can really run out quickly and saving 3 means more at 25 than at 200 but even in high points games you can still only bring 1 of any character so I sometimes find Slayers making their way into my list as my backup (somewhat lighter...) heavy.