The Slayer?

[Mathai]

I dunno. When a Slayer, with just a single point of focus gained from a Warwitch and minimal support from Admonia (Who is practically auto include with the Withershadow Combine regardless) all but wrecks a Throne of Everblight for me, I cant help but think that they arent a complete waste of points. Especially when the three points I saved over a Seether was busy winning the match by scenario elsewhere.

[Cambrian]

The problem with that scenerio Mathai is that it was more than a slayer that did that; it was a 6pt. slayer, a 2pt. WWS, and a 1.67pt Combine member.

I'm not saying that's a worse set up, but a Seether would have likely done as well without the 3.67 points of support.

[Klaw]

@Cambrian: Maybe a Seether would do the same without the 3.67 points of support, you might be right.

On the other hand, both these 'jacks die just as fast - if the Seether dies, you lose 9 points, if the Slayer dies, you only lose 6.

I find that comparing a Slayer to a Seether makes as much sense as comparing a Slayer to a Stalker, given their huge difference in cost.

Klaw

[Sanctjud]

Easy Peasy, don't take either Slayer or Seether... ... ...

[Mathai]

Well, the reason I dont count either the Withershadow nor the Warwitch towards the points in that is the fact that They would both be there regardless of the Helljack included. The Withershadow Combine would have needed to debuff the Throne in order to get its armor to a manageable level, and a Warwitch has so many uses that it was more happenstance that the Slayer was making the most use of it at that point. If I wasnt practicing my camping focus (Its my biggest problem in the game, I keep trying to use it all every round and get killed >.<) I could have easilly spared one focus and 'just' have a 24 armor that round instead.

[Mistress of Minis]

Slayers are just part of the team. Pairing them up with a Reaper can drag in targets the reaper alone cant drop, and can keep them a safe distance if positioned well.

Two handed throws for Bloat bombing or thrall grenades. The next 2 hander is the seether- which is getting expensive for throwing.

Also- to offset its fragile ARM- you can always try for weapon locks. Tying up someones 9 pt melee jack with a 5 or 6 pt Slayer can buy valuable time. Doing this to a shooting heavy like a Destroyer or Defender leaves a free claw, so you still get a P/S 16 and 12 attack.

Theres alot of comparisons of a Slayer vs another Jack or beast, but at 5 or 6 points- make the comparison of 2 Slayers and its a different scale isn't it?

I think another factor to this, is the $$ value. The older metal slayers can be found for as little as 10$. Pick up four of those, 2 sirens and Morty- and you've got tier 3 at 20 points for 80$ if youre a patient shopper. I started with a similar army for cryx and Ive been pretty happy with it as an option to my other factions(which arent anywhere near as affordable).

[Aggy]

Instead of a Slayer, Field a Stalker and a WWS for the same cost. Run them up the field and force your opponant to devide his force to deal with them.

[milothewise]

Instead of a Slayer, Field a Stalker and a WWS for the same cost. Run them up the field and force your opponant [sic] to devide [sic] his force to deal with them.

These aren't at all equivalent.

For what it's worth, I've found a lot of my lists benefit from having a melee heavy. No, we don't lack for hard-hitting options, and yes, infantry don't require focus, but warjacks focus damage in a way a unit can't, and are significantly more resilient than most units.

If you need to hold a zone, for instance, a Slayer will often do the job better than a unit. If you are only going to get one hit (e.g. Enliven), then a Slayer will often do the job better than a unit. If you can't destroy it, a Slayer (throws, slams, headbutts) will often do the job better than a unit. This is not to say Slayer > min Bane Knights, just that we're talking about very different things. There are list-building concerns that will make you want to take a heavy in lieu of another unit, and vice versa.

I also really like Slayers in a jack-heavy Coven list.

[NoGamingInMississippi]

The slayer comes down to this: You're paying 6 points into a melee light. In warmachine. Where you can't just heal them once and get going again. No animus. A decent hit or two basically reduces it to slag.

I would not call two P.S. 16 and a P.S. 12 with a P.S. combo 22 a melee light. If the Slayers a melee light what's a Seether?

[Cambeul]

I would not call two P.S. 16 and a P.S. 12 with a P.S. combo 22 a melee light. If the Slayers a melee light what's a Seether?

I am pretty sure "melee light" is more of a reference as to how well a Slayer can take a Punch.

Sure we are fast, and hit pretty hard, but unless we kill that Juggernaught in one round, it will only have to hit us once or twice to Cripple us on the return.

[Island]

Two handed throws for Bloat bombing or thrall grenades. The next 2 hander is the seether- which is getting expensive for throwing.

Also- to offset its fragile ARM- you can always try for weapon locks. Tying up someones 9 pt melee jack with a 5 or 6 pt Slayer can buy valuable time. Doing this to a shooting heavy like a Destroyer or Defender leaves a free claw, so you still get a P/S 16 and 12 attack.

Slayer walks 6" and throws something for 1 focus. Seether charges 9", delivers his attacks (one of which is a charge and the other can boost damage) and then throws(or headbutts), all for free. That's easily worth the three extra points for me (especially the 3" extra threat on that throw) but I can definitely see your point in using a 6pt slayer to lock something expensive, but since the power attack is instead of your initials you don't get to use the other attacks in the same round. Unfortunately slayers aren't super strong either, so maintaining the lock may be difficult. : /

[Cambrian]

Slayer walks 6" and throws something for 1 focus. Seether charges 9", delivers his attacks (one of which is a charge and the other can boost damage) and then throws(or headbutts), all for free. That's easily worth the three extra points for me (especially the 3" extra threat on that throw) but I can definitely see your point in using a 6pt slayer to lock something expensive, but since the power attack is instead of your initials you don't get to use the other attacks in the same round. Unfortunately slayers aren't super strong either, so maintaining the lock may be difficult. : /

Plus there's other benefits of the seether; better MAT and Terror.

Also, not implying you don't know this but the way you worded it was unclear, you can hit with a claw for the charge attack, then use the tusk attack, and then complete the smash and grab to throw the model. I didn't realize that at first but it's nice addition as an MAT 8 pow 12 attack is sometime sthe difference.

Honestly I'm thinking I'm going to tear my Slayer apart and turn him into Erebus. It just never seems to be worth the focus cost; Cryx casters are just too greedy.

[Mistress of Minis]

Speaking up for the abilities of the Slayer doesnt diminish the ability of the Seether. I think about 90% of lists with multiple Slayers are going to be Morty lists- which means multiple Slayers under Terminal Velocity are going to get alot more power attacks than the same points value of Seethers. In a head to head comparison, a Seether is obviously better than a Slayer. But at comparable point values- you get 3 slayers to 2 seethers. Which brings it around to the tactical situation which is going to work better- more targets, or meaner targets. Keep in mind, people KNOW seethers are pretty nasty- and shoot them alot(and theyre not really good at surviving that).

And while Smash & Grab is awesome(and Terror- and 1 focus), the Seether does lack the option of the P/s 22 Combo smite, and sometimes theres just no substitute for a heavy shot like that.

Ive had good success with mine in Morty lists, and in pSkarre lists on feat turn w/Dark Guidance.

I think it really comes down to how you're going to use them, and the support available. That seems to make it a personal preference more than anything else.

[2LiveIs2Die]

To be clear, slayers do not have combo smite.
The slayer has combo strike.
Combo smite is a completely different ability.

[usbprime]

i took a slayer in my pSkarre list the other night......worked too effective......i loaded him with 3 focus, moved him into combat with the legion throne, and killed it with my initials, no damage boosts.......now i did have her feat up, so he was hitting twice at P+S 21, and once at P+S 17, with boosted attacks(from Dark guidance) it was slight overkill......the problem was he didn't need that 3 focus.....oh well Skarre was Foc 10 that round. I find the slayers are very situational. At least one slayer is auto-include in my coven list. I throw Infernal Machine and make him my spd 8 mat 9 solo hunter.

[Gaspy]

At least one slayer is auto-include in my coven list. I throw Infernal Machine and make him my spd 8 mat 9 solo hunter.

You are going to use an upkeep (and focus to charge) to hunt 2 point solos with your 6 point jack? a 4 point Stalker would do that way better.

[usbprime]

true......but at my LGS lots of my opponents play menoth, so i need the slayers heavier hand to knock down the paladins. like i said......situational.

[GhostfaceKillah]

The problem is it is soo outcalassed by other factions heavys. Is very focus hungry to run, and is very easy to kill and very weak at POW 16. It should really be 5 points. And even if it was I would rather take infantry.

The seeether is also overpriced and has similar problems.

The deathjack and nightmare are just about ok for their points. But are only good in certain lists.

[Gaspy]

true......but at my LGS lots of my opponents play menoth, so i need the slayers heavier hand to knock down the paladins. like i said......situational.

Vs Harby a Stalker kill cannot be martyr'd. Something to keep in mind

[Mathai]

To be fair though, almost all of our non character 'Jacks dont have what it takes to be a threat all on their own. The Seether has more tricks, but is still hitting at the same power. The Reaper has a nasty Drag, but its still a Rat 5 Str 12 that both need to connect. Crabjacks have lots of wicked gadgets attached, but are so slow that you might have issues if you play a fast army.

So if everything needs something, why do we have to ignore the Slayer? Sure it may need a little more than the rest, but you're getting more points to do everything.

[Island]

Oh damn, Terror. #1 on my list of rules I forget. I gotta write that on the back of the base...

[Warmistress.Ravyn]

I also really like Slayers in a jack-heavy Coven list.

This...definitely this. I play Coven a lot...THIS!!!...Muey bueno.

[Sanctjud]

This...definitely this. I play Coven a lot...THIS!!!...Muey bueno.

I disagree, but before that: WWWWHHHHHYYYYY? The last post was in February.

[nogame]

Slayers are just simply amazing. 6 point jack that can go toe to toe with alot of other jacks. Pskarre makes slayers silly. P Denny same thing, even P gaspy. I like using Slayers with coven. They become amazing tramplers at 6 points

[usbprime]

Agreed.......holy necro thread batman........

[Sanctjud]

Slayers are just simply amazing. 6 point jack that can go toe to toe with alot of other jacks. Pskarre makes slayers silly. P Denny same thing, even P gaspy. I like using Slayers with coven. They become amazing tramplers at 6 points

What do you mean by "toe to toe"?just like alot of Cryx things, they are glass cannons, for most of the helljacks, they have tin foil armor, Ameritech the Slayer, it is cheap because it is so focus hungry to do its job.
Every one of our Casters hates giving focus to jacks. Even the Jack casters have focus issues. Personally, unless its Morty theme list, Slayers are not really an efficient option.

[Sheer_Falacy]

What do you mean by "toe to toe"?just like alot of Cryx things, they are glass cannons, for most of the helljacks, they have tin foil armor, Ameritech the Slayer, it is cheap because it is so focus hungry to do its job.
Every one of our Casters hates giving focus to jacks. Even the Jack casters have focus issues. Personally, unless its Morty theme list, Slayers are not really an efficient option.

Like most of our jacks, they kind of forgot the "cannon" part of glass cannon. Except for the combo strike, they're hitting at P+S that most other factions see on dedicated ranged jacks or offhand weapons.

Unless you brought pGaspy, pDenny, or pSkarre. That fixes the damage issue quite nicely.

[Sanctjud]

Unless you brought pGaspy, pDenny, or pSkarre. That fixes the damage issue quite nicely.

Quite true, but those casters are casters that can not spare focus to the Slayer...while still using their spell list to GET to the point of fixing their damage issues.

pGaspy has do defensive mechanism, if he's not spell assassinate, then he camps. If he's going for army support with scything and parasite, he will have better returns using infantry because he can't fuel the Slayer due to spell cycling.

pSkarre 'can' fuel the Slayer, but she is so far up the board, I would hazard she 'NEEDS' to camp as much as she can, esp. after casting Dark Guidance, which (let's face it) helps out options that don't use focus to get more attacks.

pDenny, her typical assassination run is: Feat, Scourge, Parasite...where is the focus to fuel the Slayer?
_________________

The focus to fuel the Slayer comes from the following options:

1. Random souls you acquire for Soul Cage equipped casters...not even gonna say any more other than, good luck.
2. ILO... um, /shrug, I dunno, doesn't seem cost effective.
3. Siren, which I admit, is a perfectly viable option, but it's just one focus, which means you are not accessing their maximum damage and likely just using that focus to charge to get the range to initiate the beat down.
_________________

Do note: "grain of sand" or whatever that saying is, just random ranting from me.

[SpiderBite]

said before:
What melee model/unit does poorly with pSkarre, e/pDen? Add a siren for a touch of go-juice and you're set.
My issue with the Slayer (of which I have 3 fully painted), is there's 'better' options for the points. Unless I'm running Morty (Tier or not).

My 2souls worth.






*-every time I necro a thread, it gets immediately locked and I get yelled at to not do it. >

[BigK42]

I actually think the slayer may pick up some cache with the release of colossals. Banes can't effectively deal with a supported stormwall, but a slayer can charge through covering fire to deliver a combo strike for 1 focus. Might be worth considering.

[Sanctjud]

I actually think the slayer may pick up some cache with the release of colossals. Banes can't effectively deal with a supported stormwall, but a slayer can charge through covering fire to deliver a combo strike for 1 focus. Might be worth considering.

Unless it's pHaley, Rahn, one of the Nemos...
_______

Banes can deal with Stormwall, you just need some defensive tech to have them as an option.
Deathward, Bloodmagic, Spectral Legion, though the list is small, it's there.

I can agree that the Slayer can hurt Colossals, but instead of spending 6 points for a 'can' (I assume the Siren is in the list regardless), you can spend those points towards killing the caster instead of worrying about the Colossal,... I dunno, maybe like 2 Pistol Wraiths.

[Deo85]

I am a bit interested in why people keep pointed the slayer to the coven list... For hunting solos we got the best jack out there and its called the a stalker... I am guessing for cheep Infernal machine targets can some one post one of these lists they run jack heavy with the coven plz?

Any who my take on the slayer is its a cheep heavy when you want one in every list. Lets face it some times you need those power attacks to seal the deal or a way to negate one of your opponents heavy's while your guys close in for the kill and the slayer is there for the ride. They hit hard and fast which is what Cryx is all about we are not designed to survive round 2 in the ring with any of our stuff that is why we can bring units back to make up for this. When I include a heavy jack most the time I bring a necro tech not to heal them because god knows I never make that stupid skill check when I need it but to bring me back some scrap thralls

We all ready have some great jacks that fit vary specific niches which tend to out shine our slayer which is why you don't see the bugger much past a Morty theme force.

Nighmare - Assassin piece he hits hard and from a good distance away love this guy with coven sense they are a delivery system
DeathJack - Heavy hitter that's hard to take down if my opponent brings infantry then this guy gos all night long
Leviathen - Range shooting platform not many of our casters field this guy due to the focus dump it takes
Harrower - Infantry mulching machine this is your answer to any unit pack that needs to go down effectively
Malice / Reaper - Drag opens the lanes for the floods to come in or helps our other models get the jump on a nice juicy target we bring to the party
Seether - This is the focus efficient king of jacks! It runs, it charges, it even smash and grabs and comes with its own focus to boot (batteries not included) If you need a heavy but don't want to give up your caster focus this is your go to jack

Lets face it with are niches there is not many places for our poor little slayer to shine. Hes the kid who's last picked for the baseball team after all the other children are picked. Some times the two captains argue over not wanting to take him he walks home alone and broken with out a friend in the world... poor guy...

[ZombieWar]

I love the Slayer. I think the biggest problem with it is that it was named a heavy jack. If you think of it as a Med jack the slayers role makes a lot more sense. You are using it either: A. running it dry and finishing off a hurt jack/beast. B. running it dry and killing some infantry C. filling it up and going for a caster kill.

I always run 1 with my 35 pt scaverous army and it has been solid for me. I usually run DW on it for the first 3 turns and it takes more attacks/resources then it should to deal with a 6 pt model. I almost never put focus on the little guy unless he is going for a slam or headbutt on a caster as the mat 7 and pow 16s work just fine for med infantry.

It may be the fact that my meta is cygnar heavy but paying 9 pts for a seether seems like a laughably bad idea to me considering half of the slayers survivability comes from the opponent underestemating its damage output.

Sorry for all the typos

[Sanctjud]

IMO, the Reaper should be the standard jack of the faction.
Reach: Best rule in the game.
Sustained: Somewhat focus efficiency.
Harpoon: Allows for some reaching out, and offers positional play.
For only 1 more point.

[ZombieWar]

but the reaper is more focus hungry then even the slayer. you will need to boost the harpoon damage against most hard targets and then it has 1 pow 16 initial so more focus to buy attacks.

Reach is the best rule in the game though, you are absolutely right there.

[various]

i usually take it in low pt games or if i need a second low cost Heavy. It's solid rather than outstanding and some Tier lists make it pretty awesome (pAsphyxious's reduces the cost to 5pts if you meet the requirements and Mortenebra at Tier 3 reduces all Helljacks by a pt, so a Slayer also comes in at 5pts too). Honestly, i don't mind it but it needs to be part of a team to be fully effective, preferably paired with something that's Focus efficient. Then again so does everything else that Cryx has. It's been mentioned repeatedly that the real downside is its fragility: a good solid hit will leave it combat ineffective.

[Sanctjud]

@ZombieWar: the idea is that the focus you spend on the Reaper has more utility than the Slayer, and all you need is 2 focus to double boost the shot it takes...making it a 14" threat (compared to the 9.5 standard threat of the Slayer). Sure, it only gets one attack, but you allow the rest of the army to help out.

[BENDER]

And to add to Sanctjuds appraisal, if the whole shooting option is dicey, everyone seems to forget that it's still a SPD6 medium jack with reach and mat 7. That is an 11 inch threat as standard. I have caught out more than a few people who think I will try to reel in a model when my intention is to charge.

On a different note, I never have gotten my head around the idea that investing focus in jacks is inefficient. A slayer hits using the same base number as one of our casters (mat 7= foc 7) If our casters has a 3 focus spell that potentially caused 5 x pow 16 shots and a pow 12, people would cry broken. Same thing with leviathans. Another "focus hog". But for 2 focus you get 3x pow 15 range 13 shots that are arced from a heavy jack. Compare that with our premier direct damage offensive spell, hellfire for instance. 3 focus only gets you 1xpow 14 shot.

[Sanctjud]

It is inefficient due to the opportunity cost, at the very least, you are trading caster durability for jack offense, as an example. More importantly, for casty Casters, their threat range is much further that jacks due to arc modes, and hence a value of quality more than jacks, at times.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

I decided to bust one out (I actually only own one) to fill out a Coven Tier 4 list this past weekend. Under the power of Infernal Machine, a Slayer can wreck some face.