War Room FAQ (the return!)

[ForestZ]

I think it's very fair to compare the two because this app directly replaces the previously free alternative. If that weren't the case we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[PPS_Simon]

Another update:

How much space will War Room take on my device?
The final file size has not been determined yet, but we anticipate that the full install will be 70 - 80 mb.

[Andross]

Some what mundane question but I didn't see it asked anywhere in the thread:
My g/f and I both play WarMachine, do we need two copies of our relevant decks to use the app while playing each other, or can we just buy one copy and log into the account from two phones at once? I'm assuming two copies which isn't a big deal but it would be nice to know in advance.

[Lord Phoenix]

I think it's very fair to compare the two because this app directly replaces the previously free alternative. If that weren't the case we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Apart from Ibodger was a list builder with only the unit costs, requiring you to have the cards or books to see what the units could do.
War room contains the entire stat cards, and rules for the games in hot links on the cards. The cards will auto update with errata, and new models will automatically load into your purchased decks. It also allows you to track damage during a game, see you opponents cards and is a general utility for use during a game.

Its a bit like comparing a carrot and a four course meal, of course the four course meal replaces the carrot and is going to cost you more, but then you would still have needed to buy something to go with the carrot to make a meal.

[AJ the Ronin]

I will ask again:

1. Aside from theme list and league models, how is NQ integrated (if at all) with War Room?

2. Will War Room include a feature to tag cards of the same type when using the same models several times on a list?

3. May I have my account open in different devices at the same time? (That is Andross question and I have seen it a few time in the different threads)

[Feline]

You know, I have an app on my phone that does all the pesky mathy bits, and it is fully customizable. And it came with the phone. It is called Calculator. If you look closely you just might find it on your phone as well. Mind you, this only works if you have actually paid for all them cards, but if you have I do not actually see the problem (of course I do understand where people are coming from, but I am not convinced of the merits of their whines).

It seems like it goes somewhat similar to this:
-I have all the cards
-I do not wish to pay for them once more
-I will not pay for them once more
(-I am upset that I can't actually do card-related stuff without cards any more)
-I object to this money-gouging strategy which does not actually gouge me
-How am I supposed to play with only the tools I use to play
-Woe is me

Me, having gotten a smartphone less than a month ago, do feel less than sympathetic. I did construct lists away from home. I did it in my head. And my head usually is near enough useless for these basic sums, but it was not actually hard to do. Of course I could not do it for armies other than mine, but I'm unsure why I should expect to be able to do that. At all. So yes, iBodger was an awesome tool, but to expect that kind of usability, gratis, in perpetuity...
Silliness.

You are displeased. Fair enough. You need not buy it.
You object to them asking whicken to discontinue iBodger because they will not give you stuff for free. It might behoove you to ask yourself what you are in fact asking of them.

[whicken]

Quoted for Truths. Emphasis mines.

I'm generally trying to stay out of this discussion at this point, but I would like to clarify: almost all of my "hobby" side projects/apps have been free, including Scorched Earth. I generally prefer using a tip jar for such projects, if that. Search around, I have other free projects that I've never charged for, with no IP issues. There are reasons to make cool apps besides wanting to make money.

As the author, let me assure you that the text you highlighted is not true.

Now, if you want to say "iBodger was only free because Wendell is a nutter"... I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Carry on.

[correlation2]

I'm assuming you have to have a different account for every device.


Otherwise some smartypants is going to buy the whole package and then just post his ID and password or whatever so that no one else ever has to buy anything.

[AJ the Ronin]

I'm generally trying to stay out of this discussion at this point, but I would like to clarify: almost all of my "hobby" side projects/apps have been free, including Scorched Earth. I generally prefer using a tip jar for such projects, if that. Search around, I have other free projects that I've never charged for, with no IP issues. There are reasons to make cool apps besides wanting to make money.

As the author, let me assure you that the text you highlighted is not true.

Now, if you want to say "iBodger was only free because Wendell is a nutter"... I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Carry on.

My mistake. Not a law guru although I was assuming you can't make money out of others people IP without consent (a license for example). Is not the first time I get some fact wrong 'though. My knowledge of the law is limited to finding stuff on lex and micro (and sometimes jurisprudence using the Shepard's books). I leave the understanding of the law to others.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

I'm generally trying to stay out of this discussion at this point, but I would like to clarify: almost all of my "hobby" side projects/apps have been free, including Scorched Earth. I generally prefer using a tip jar for such projects, if that. Search around, I have other free projects that I've never charged for, with no IP issues. There are reasons to make cool apps besides wanting to make money.

As the author, let me assure you that the text you highlighted is not true.

Now, if you want to say "iBodger was only free because Wendell is a nutter"... I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Carry on.

I certainly did not mean to impugn your honorable intentions. I meant that iBodger could not legally have made you any money, whether or not you wanted it to.

[ForestZ]

So yes, iBodger was an awesome tool, but to expect that kind of usability, gratis, in perpetuity...
Silliness.

You are displeased. Fair enough. You need not buy it.
You object to them asking whicken to discontinue iBodger because they will not give you stuff for free. It might behoove you to ask yourself what you are in fact asking of them.

First, I'm not expecting anything. I'm commenting on what I see as a poor PR move, and possibly a poor business move but I would likely be wrong on the latter other than how the poor PR affects them.

The fact is that allowing players of their game to use a free app to create army lists for their game is a net win for both them and their players. It costs them nothing to allow a fan app, and next to nothing to code their app to allow it (and as a permission managed data programmer for more than 10 years I feel qualified to make that statement). In return for this, they gain both good will from their customers, but more importantly they gain a hard monetary benefit. This isn't theory but fact. I have actually purchased models directly because I continually found holes in my list at a certain point value and, looking at the models available in that spread finally decided that one choice I didn't own was consistently desirable. And I would not have made those theoretical lists nearly as often, nor as easily and consistently had those models pointed put to me without iBodger.

Now this was probably still a smart business move on PPs part because most people will likely buy their app because of all the great additional content so they can afford to take the risk of making people unhappy. But I still think it's an overall poor PR move to take away an option from their customers that costs them nothing and gains them something. The fact that they didn't bother to allow list building without access to the content for free in their app, and asked the existing free app to stop to me indicates either a lack of respect towards their customers or a belief that the content alone isn't enough of a value add which leads me to question the price.

I think I've said enough on the subject though. I think I've made my argument as clear as I can. I understand people will disagree with my opinion and that's fine. Maybe it will make PP rethink their strategy. Maybe not. But I felt I at least needed to weigh in.

[correlation2]

PP won't get bad PR. LOL. There's so many new people getting into the game for the fun of it that a disgruntled oldbie here and there grumbling about iBodger will get more of a "lolwut?". Who even cares if 100 people go belly up and quit right this second, if 1000 new people are taking up the game? It doesn't even make sense. No one is going to say "oh yeah WM is a great fun game with tight rules, but don't play it because they charge in their completely unnecessary app".

The fact that they're apparently adding all the Prime releases to their free content should be more than enough to shut people up. It's not something they have to do, it's just something they're doing.

People just need to let iBodger die peacefully. lol

[whicken]

Random factoid: There are currently about 20,000 iBodger users, at least as near as I can tell from the reports I have.

If each one of those users spent an average of $10 extra on models because of iBodger, that's $200k to Privateer. (I'm not claiming $10 is the right number, just showing how the multiplier works out. Feel free to insert whatever number you think best suits your point of view.)

[Nirvanawn]

I have defiantly bought many models because of ibodger

[Necra-Chi]

Wow that is a lot of players

[j78]

Another update:

How much space will War Room take on my device?
The final file size has not been determined yet, but we anticipate that the full install will be 70 - 80 mb.

thanks...now...i guess some stuff is going to get kicked off my phone. will there be any option to partially install if you own all the factions (say I just want to bring out my ret deck because I need the memory for something else).

...to the rest of you, didn't the last FAQ thread get closed for the exact same debate? take it somewhere else so the questions stop getting buried.

[Grimm]

I am one of the 20,000 users of iBodger. While it is a handy tool, I do not feel it has ever influenced my decision to buy anything. Maybe its because I am of the older generation but I've always preferred the web based tools over anything on the phone. I am still on the fence on War Room. It will probably be nice on the iPad but I doubt I will find it practical to use on my phone.

[Chip]

I've got a quick question - didn't see it asked anywhere;

Can I buy decks with PayPal? I really don't want to have to explain to... Anyone... Why I'm buying these virtual versions of things I already have

[TheKingInYellow]

I can't believe people are complaining about the price.

The key points:

1. They are providing servers to support the in-game functionality.
2. They are not charging an annual or monthly fee.

So essentially they will provide a cluster of servers, keep the power turned on, pay for the supporting infrastructure, update and maintain the hardware/software, and do this all indefinitely while only charging you once for a software license. That is insane for a small company with a limited number of potential customers. It's a fantastic deal, and the 'additional costs' of buying the decks are cheaper than the real-world equivalent.

People don't recognize a deal when they see one.

[CG]

People don't recognize a deal when they see one.

It's only a deal if it's what you want in the first place. I had what I wanted until WarRoom came along.

[MetaphoricDragon]

Apart from Ibodger was a list builder with only the unit costs, requiring you to have the cards or books to see what the units could do.
War room contains the entire stat cards, and rules for the games in hot links on the cards. The cards will auto update with errata, and new models will automatically load into your purchased decks. It also allows you to track damage during a game, see you opponents cards and is a general utility for use during a game.

Its a bit like comparing a carrot and a four course meal, of course the four course meal replaces the carrot and is going to cost you more, but then you would still have needed to buy something to go with the carrot to make a meal.

The problem in your analogy is you seem to ignore the fact some people just want a carrot. Don't get me wrong, all the bells and whistles being added to War Room are cool, and I'll probably wind up with it and my faction deck. But I play with the models I have, thus I have the cards for them, I've never had an issue with pulling out my cards to play. I do, however, have an issue with remembering that list i thought up while I was on the subway 2 weeks ago. iBodger was a theorycraft app. It let me play around with list ideas, and visually organize the thoughts in my head, and it was portable to do so. I could even do this with factions I do not play, but ones that I have some interest in, and which I might buy in the future if I'm happy with what I see. Furthermore, when I went to go play a game, I could pull out my phone, select the army list I had made, and it would remind me which models to pull out.

In the end, either way i have to buy something to go with either this "carrot" or this "four course meal" to play. I could play this game just fine without the App Utilities provided by War Room with the original tools at hand, so for someone who was only really looking for the simple functionality, from my perspective to get the same level out of War Room would be prohibitively expensive. I'm not trying to degrade War Room in any way, I do think it is a really nifty idea and can see benefits coming from all the app utilities, I am just trying to define how, for me at least, it is still missing a key utility.

[whicken]

From my perspective to get the same level out of War Room would be prohibitively expensive.

From my perspective, to get the same level out of War Room isn't possible at any price - the bulk of my personal army building is now always filtered by my own collection, sometimes to painted models only, or more often to models in my Battle Foam bag. iBodger can do this for me, but since War Room isn't going to even track collections, it will not. (For clarity, I understand others might not care about this feature, and I understand War Room is selling premium content, etc etc. My only point is that I actually don't have a credible replacement for that part of the feature set that matters to me.)

So, to bring this back to topic of War Room FAQ...

It was mentioned that collections will not be in War Room, but can we get any insight into the roadmap? Will collections eventually get added, and if so, will we be able to filter to them, or attributes of models within our collection (i.e. primed/painted)?

Also, I don't seem to recall any comments on this - how will War Room handle large sets of lists? Can we group them into folders, tag them by types, etc? Can we attach notes to army lists with win/loss records, or ideas for future tweaks? Can I "share" a list with a friend (i.e. send my list to his device, assuming he's got the cards unlocked), or would he need to reenter it from an email? After a game, can I keep a copy of the list I played against on my device (assuming I've got the cards unlocked)?

Will War Room support different types of lists, like Mangled Metal, Unbound Formations, Highlander, etc?

[Defenstrator]

It is not just a calculator. It has content. Content costs money.

I have already paid the money for content. I own every single faction book. I just want the calculator thankyou.

IPeople don't recognize a deal when they see one.

Or some people see that paying for functions you don't want or need is not actually a deal.

[zionson]

IMO collection management MUST become a core part of War Room functionality. at the end of the day, PP sells models. War Room must be an app that only enhances that experience. in fact, it's more important than a game management system that only works over an Internet connection. that's a value added service that isn't core to the hobby or the game. on the other hand, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who plays Warmachine/Hordes has a collection to manage.

[MadHatter5045]

When will it be released?

[MetaphoricDragon]

When will it be released?

I recall reading March, but I couldn't quote you the source off the top of my head

[Atrix]

I understand some people's concern about the cost of decks in War Room, but to me, it really doesn't seem like that much. I plan on buy all the decks. It seems like a fair price considering I'll will be getting all future cards (easy to proxy before buying models) and automatic errata updates. Seems pretty sweet to me.

[Aedric]

Personally I spend more then 60$ on dinner on a regular basis. Paying that for a lifetime of functionality seems cheap.

Though I understand not everyone feels that way. Some people are on limited income or in school.

I would also like a collection manager. Would be nice to know if they plan on having it in the future.

[Fandeath]

$7 a deck is really cheap. I get surprised when people get up in arms over what amounts to less than an hour of work at minimum wage. It's totally worth it.

[BryanC]

I have some serious reservations about the war room, but remain optimistic. It's a bummer that ibodger will not continue to be supported, as it is a sweet army-builder app. From the FAQ it sounds like the basic army building will only be available with the cards you buy, which is sucky because list building is the primary use case for this type of app for me. sure it's cool to have all the rules, but this to me is a nice to have.

[Defenstrator]

It's not the price of the deck. It's the price of the list builder. If you want a list builder it should cost a dollar. Two at most. But becuase the decks are required a two dollar app costs seven dollars minimum, and sixty dollars if you want the same functionality as what the free iBodger provides.

That really sucks.

If the list building was provided as the free buy in and buying decks was an option there would be zero discussion about this. But by making the decks a requirement anyone who wants a straight forward list builder is left feeling pretty screwed. In fact, the more you already have invested in PP the more screwed you feel.

To a new player who has nothing the appeal of getting all the decks looks pretty good. For a player like myself who already owns every single book that PP has sold, the idea of having to buy all of that over again just to get a two buck app to function sticks in the craw. I already gave them my money and supported the game. Now I'm being denied an efficient list builder and collection tracker. Go PP.

[TheKingInYellow]

It's not the price of the deck. It's the price of the list builder. If you want a list builder it should cost a dollar. Two at most. But becuase the decks are required a two dollar app costs seven dollars minimum, and sixty dollars if you want the same functionality as what the free iBodger provides.

I was unaware that iBodger included full stats, full unit rules, a damage tracker, list sharing, and lifetime access to servers to host everything.

Yes, there are things that iBodger included that WarRoom does not (yet?) but you can't pretend that WarRoom offers nothing that it doesn't.

[CeltKhan]

I was unaware that iBodger included full stats, full unit rules, a damage tracker, list sharing, and lifetime access to servers to host everything.

Yes, there are things that iBodger included that WarRoom does not (yet?) but you can't pretend that WarRoom offers nothing that it doesn't.

At this point, I have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse for rhetorical reasons. It has been stated, multiple times, by multiple authors, that many people simply do not WANT those features.

To use the time-honored tradition of faulty automotive comparisons, you're telling everyone they can get this really tricked out SUV with mag wheels, SiriusXM, moon roof, Blu-ray, power windows, remote locks, and GPS, why oh WHY can't they be happy getting all this for only 35 grand?

The simple answer, of course, is that they just want a bike.

[Oniichan]

CeltKhan's spot on. When I use iBodger, I don't use it because it has full tricked out stats for everything in my faction. I have the general knowledge of my faction models' stats already in my head. I just want the point costs, and the ability to build lists.
It's nice that PP is adding all the Prime/Primal units to War Room for free, because that way you can at least test out the list-building with more than just a battle box's contents. I'm still on the fence about spending $14 on my faction+mercs, but at least now that we have Prime units and such included in the free app, I'm willing to download it and give it a chance.

[TheKingInYellow]

At this point, I have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse for rhetorical reasons. It has been stated, multiple times, by multiple authors, that many people simply do not WANT those features.

And you are simply ignoring the fact that many people simply DO, and will see a lot of value in this.

[TheKingInYellow]

When I use iBodger, I don't use it because it has full tricked out stats for everything in my faction. I have the general knowledge of my faction models' stats already in my head. I just want the point costs, and the ability to build lists.

I don't have that general knowledge, being a new player. If all I wanted was points costs and the ability to build lists, why would I need an app for that? Do it in Notepad on a PC or one of a few dozen other simple mobile apps like Evernote.

[Vex]

There sure is a lot of whining about price for people playing a luxury hobby game where a basic mid-sized army costs hundred of dollars - and that's before even considering paint/glue/transport gear/etc.

Of course, it isn't really about the price, is it? It's about the fact that, before, people were able to get something for nothing, and got used to it. Well, the free ride is over, but there is good news - the new ride looks really sweet. I, for one, will be getting it and all the faction decks as soon as it is released. IMO, it looks to be a fantastic value and huge convenience.

[Defenstrator]

This isn't about the free ride. I've bought every single book they've ever put out except Monsternomicon 1. Telling me I'm cheap or want something for nothing is laughable.

This is about being forced to buy something extra that I don't need (cards, damage grids, blah, blah blah) just to get a very basic product (list building), which I'd happily buy at the reasonable price..

[maddermax]

And you are simply ignoring the fact that many people simply DO, and will see a lot of value in this.

No he is not. He is not talking about the people who will use this app exclusively, but about those who have been using it for things that War Room doesn't do. Hell, I'll find it useful myself, and probably get it when it comes out, however, it is not a replacement for iBodger. With War Room, I could not, without spending a significant amount of money, do things like make lists for my friends armies, to show them what could be done, make lists for armies I do not own as thought exercises when thinking about purchasing a new army. Many times I do make up lists for other armies, or just use iBodger to look up points costs for opponents models, so I can consider how much effort I should direct into taking a model out (other factors are involved of course, but if you suddenly realise you're taking 10pts to counter 5 points, you need to rethink your strategy), or just out of interest, in trying to learn what an opponents army is capable of.

Now, I can still do all that using, say, forward komander, or any other list creation site, but it's far more inconvenient than iBodger, which was an extremely well designed and handy app that I don't need an internet connection for. Now, I don't dislike War Room, and will be getting it when it comes out, but there is no reason that it shouldn't include a basic list builder that doesn't use the stat cards, or uses blank stat cards (with nothing but Name, PC and FA shown), and if it's not going to include that, it should allow iBodger to keep working, as it fills a different niche for customers. I wouldn't even mind it if you had to pay a few dollars to upgrade to a list builder - it would be well worth it. However, I'm not spending $60 to get functionality that I can get for free by going to a website instead of using an app. It's not worth it for me, even if it is more inconvenient.


In short, I think it would be well worth it for PP to include a basic free list builder in War Room, with cards only showing the Name, PC and FA. It is not hard to do, would mollify customers completely, and would increase take-up of the app, which would increase revenues as people ended up getting the cards as well, after using the program for a while. Please Please PP, include that level of functionality, it's good for everyone involved.

[Thadrin]

What Celtkhan and Maddermax said.

I seriously doubt my 'droid phone could handle War room. I've had it a while, it's kinda small compared to the phones I'm seeing these days and I have no intention of splashing out on a new Phone or a tablet that I wouldn't get much use out of, especially if it would just be able to use one app.

I don't even WANT all the whistles and bells that War Room contains. For what I want it's all just bloat. If you do want it, then that's fine too - it's not worth the 60+ dollars it would cost me to get what i want (and currently have) though. Enjoy all the sharing, updates, god only knows what else. I sure wish that PP had left us a "Scuffle Closet" though...

To use Celt's analogy: Please PP - can I have my bike back?