Kromac the Ravenous: An In-depth Guide.

[Blaque]

I think the Wolfrider section falls into a couple fallacies I have argued elsewhere in simply calling them Tharn Bloodtrackers, mounted. The main reason for this is because it focus only on their guns, rather than the fact that they can with Assault and get 2-3 attacks per Wolfrider.

That said, your lists do focus on shooting quite a bit in itself, so I am assuming that's why they are how you feel on them.

More or less agree entirely on most all the other units though. Especially the Skinwalkers.

The thing I also will note is that I feel folks over-think Morraig and Wolves of Orboros. I still argue that the Wolves of Orboros is a straight-out extra bonus with him. He's one of the fastest dragoons, there are only two or three non-character one swho hit harder (and he's faster than the with Pathfinder), and he has really good hit-and-run potential. As I see it, the Flank thing is a pure bonus, it's just that folks look at it and think he requires it to work. He doesn't.

And stuff.

[Mattho2k3]

I agree with Blaque about Morraig. I learned a long time ago to play Morraigad if he doesn't have flank. If the opportunity comes up awesome but don't try to force the issue. He doesnt require WoO to do his job and they can in fact slow him down as he sometimes "babysits" them. With that said I don't think Morraig has a place in this list. While I see how the list plays, or at least I think I do, Morraig would fit but the list is to strapped for points to fit him.

[skillt]

I agree, Morraig is excellent. Its his point cost that removes his inclusion (and the fact hes probably better in a different list...), and the fact that he does not REQUIRE WoO to function, why run him without them? They are also an amazing unit -- just not for this list.

Wolfriders fall much into the same idea as Morraig. High in points. They also pseudo fall into the skinwalker issue of must be committed. 5" back isn't enough if your using your melee, and if your using ranged you are not fully utilizing them, making them not worth their points. Wolfriders will probably not get their points back if they are obliterated in one round, and with the opponets whole army to bear, you most certainly will. This can gain you positioning, but probably not enough to justify the price tag. This will all be part of unit choices.

[Blaque]

Just clarifying on Morraig and such. I will agree he's not the best choice in this list. And I haven't myself run Morraig with Kromac since what, the FT?

Wolfriders I think has things on how you play Kromac as a whole. I find Wolfriders are very good at heavy harassing in a way that is mostly Kromac-independent. But I think that they do rank above say, Wolves of Orboros, Skinwalkers, and Ravagers on actually working with Kromac, I find.

And stuff.

[skillt]

Solo's done as well... Now the hard part... Match ups...

[Mattho2k3]

I think what you are doing in your list composition, and correct me if I'm wrong, is taking what the list wants for how it achieves it's goal and not what Kromac wants. I think to many people take what they feel is the better model/unit and not what is better for the lists. I believe you are taking Kromac, or any other warlock, and finding a playstyle on how they will win. You then pick the most effective pieces to achieve THAT goal and not the most effective pieces. For example Kromac may want a Woldgaurdian for his tanking and animus but a Feral may be a better option in order to achieve victory. While the Woldgaurdian can achieve higher ARM he can anchor the army down with his lower speed. He is also harder to heal with two small aspect and has such a low defense he is almost auto-hit. The Feral might actually tank better with the extra defense negating damage or forcing them to boost. Obviously this assumes he warps armor and they both have IR on them.

[niceas]

I think that's exactly what Will is doing with this. I suspect the matchups will clarify things further.

[Llael'sHope]

can somebody sticky this?

[Marchant06]

It is in the Wilding Way I'm pretty sure.

[Llael'sHope]

It is in the Wilding Way I'm pretty sure.

Awesomesauce. Thanks.

[PG_fildrigar]

It is in the Wilding Way I'm pretty sure.

It was already in there by the time Skillt finished his first six posts. I'm ON IT. Sometimes.

[skillt]

It helps when I give you the heads up :-)

[VaulSC]

Kromac makes an interesting match here. If you take a break down of the normal Cygnar armies people are afraid of you will find Caine2, Haley2, and Siege at the top of that list. Kromac actually matches fairly well against Haley2, but rather poorly against Siege. Caine2 is a wash and will come down to skill pretty decisively.
First I would like to talk about the Haley2 match up. Her feat is really the key point here with a nod to Time Bomb and to Telekinesis. Usually, their goal will be to engage your models with reach models (usually Storm Guard/Clads) and feat, forcing you to chose to walk into melee with them if you do not have reach, and if you do it stops you from maximizing your reach. Warpath gets past both of these functions of her feat. Shifting stones are not really useful against the feat – if you shift a model it must sacrifice its action to her feat as it has already promised its movement to the stones. Do not fall into that trap. Bestial stops her from debuffing Kromac with time bomb for a shooting assassination, but other than that is rather useless as your beasts will be far enough forward. When her Arcnode comes forward, make sure it dies and your life will be much easier. Storm infantry under Deceleration are semi-durable but both Woldstalkers and Bloodtrackers should have no problem mulching them. Her feat also does nothing to Lightning Strike movements, so abuse that to reposition out of her threat ranges. This is something most people will not expect – that you can kill their models on her feat turn AND get back to safety. This will put most players on tilt, so abuse their rash decisions.

Re: the eHaley matchup. My main problem is that with the warjack bond, telekinesis, and temporal acceleration, a charging stormclad can have a threat range of 16". If she wants to alpha strike one of your heavies, it's no problem - then her feat is going to deny you the ability to pick up the stormclad in a trade - meaning it can then take something else out afterwards. This becomes especially worrying when there is a scenario to think about, and you can't just run things away. I play against some eHaley lists that don't run a lot of infantry, or against players smart enough to not allow you to use their infantry as warpath triggers early on, so that you can't out-threat the cygnar heavy-hitters.

It is also rather painful if the black 13th put down a fire beacon on your stalker, which eEiryss then shoots, removing Wild Aggression, and then under the feat eHaley chooses your Stalker to activate first without any buffs - if this happens she can even leave her Stormclad near to your stalker after the jack has already gone on a killing spree: Mat6 vs Def12 isn't likely to get the 4 or 5 solid hits needed to kill it..

Any discussion or tips on these sorts of scenarios would be of interest.

[PG_fildrigar]

It helps when I give you the heads up :-)

Yeah, I did have some advance notice.

[PG_prkl]

[U][B]Darius' threat ranges are also very small on his jacks.

I don't know if you've played Darius that much but he can get a threat range of 11,5" on a jack without trying and up to 19" pulling every trick in the book. 17" is still easy and requires minimum to no luck to pull off. I've lost a game with Kromac advancing on my first turn, with a non-reach warjack in melee with me on the opponents second.

Just saying.

[The Golden Arrow]

Actually with Madelyn and Lanyssa you can make a stormclad threat 23" Assuming its a stormclad marchalled to sword knights that is.

10" basic threat
5" Pronto
3" Crane
3" Madelyn
2" Hunter's mark from Lanyssa

On a nonmarchalled jack that i 18" threat, also the basic threat of a marchalled jack with no interactions with you is 18". Obviously lots of stuff needs to go right and against a hit and run Kromac list activating Maddy can be quite hard (also including Lanyssa just for the extra threat might not be worth it since jacks charge for free with full throttle anyway).

Not sure where he got 17/19 from

[PG_fildrigar]

How does Madelyn increase the Sclads range? She speeds up Darius, but not the 'Jack. She might help Darius' position a bit, but its not a general increase to the Stormclad.

[mercury]

I think that Maddy can only increase the threat range of warrior models.

I had assumed you could get to 19" somehow by Throwing a Stormclad and using Crane to pick it up. Hell, let's stack that on top of the long list of situational abilities above to create a truly silly threat range!

[Gobos]

Re: the eHaley matchup. My main problem is that with the warjack bond, telekinesis, and temporal acceleration, a charging stormclad can have a threat range of 16". If she wants to alpha strike one of your heavies, it's no problem - then her feat is going to deny you the ability to pick up the stormclad in a trade - meaning it can then take something else out afterwards. This becomes especially worrying when there is a scenario to think about, and you can't just run things away. I play against some eHaley lists that don't run a lot of infantry, or against players smart enough to not allow you to use their infantry as warpath triggers early on, so that you can't out-threat the cygnar heavy-hitters.

Any discussion or tips on these sorts of scenarios would be of interest.

i think it's worth mentioning that eHaley has no means of giving her warjacks pathfinder. If you are worried about her outthreating you, you might consider using Rift to block charge lanes (target your stones for accurate placing).

Anyway, I noticed many Cygnar players choose eHaley and Siege for competitive play, and since I agree with skillt that Siege is a tough matchup I'd say you don't want to play Kromac vs. Cygnar, it is something your other list should be prepared to handle.

[The Golden Arrow]

You're right about maddy, with throws, pushed and slams you can increase the threat length a lot but it requires a lot of resources.

[Kyuss]

I guess its just me and my meta, but I use my Krom list alot against Cygnar. It does have the Wold Guardian and a Pureblood in it for Flesh of Clay and Wraithbane, so that helps blunt a lot of the shooting and Arcane Shields. I also do have Wolf Riders in it, mainly to stop annoying solo's running down the flank all of the time/threaten the mandatory Squire.

Different strokes for different folks I guess

[skillt]

Kromac is not terrible against Cygnar -- there are just things you need to be aware of. My posts above about model choices are based in the National Meta, not store Metas.

I also do not think taking a unit of Wolfriders to kill a Squire is at all worth it. They better be doing a whole lot of that.

Will

[Kyuss]

Ha Ha, they do - but the Squire does get a special hate! (especially with eHaley)

PS - Totally true about the store/national meta balance. Hardly manage to get to a UK Tournie, and that was before small child came along

[Beckman]

I've had good luck with Druids - it's oftentimes really nice to drag someone's ranged heavy into charge range and punk it. In that regard.. if you bring Druids + UA, and the opponent has AOEs, I put IR on them. Last night it took the druids to the enemy needing 10s to kill as opposed to 8s on their POW6 blast damages. Subsequently, they dragged a ranged heavy to death after I cleared some infantry out of the way with Woldstalkers. The Feral and Stalker hid in a forest and the 'jack came to them for lunch. Oh yeah, and the druid overseer's 4" AOE decimated my opponent's shieldwall.

[CloudFang]

hey is this right:

kromac can charge then jump? so after the full advance of charging as long as he is in melee he has a successful charge and his activation does not end, then before charge attack he jumps for 5"? he doesnt get his boosted charge damage because he cant hit his original charge target but he can still make initial attacks and stuff right? this is how me and my buddy interpreted the rules last night and i have only played kromac a few times before but killed him before these tricks. just curious because it was awesome even though i died.. thanks..

[PG_LEJKaya]

hey is this right:

kromac can charge then jump? so after the full advance of charging as long as he is in melee he has a successful charge and his activation does not end, then before charge attack he jumps for 5"? he doesnt get his boosted charge damage because he cant hit his original charge target but he can still make initial attacks and stuff right? this is how me and my buddy interpreted the rules last night and i have only played kromac a few times before but killed him before these tricks. just curious because it was awesome even though i died.. thanks..

No. Charging is not a Full Advance.
A Full Advance is moving up to your SPD.

[PG_fildrigar]

Oh yeah, and the druid overseer's 4" AOE decimated my opponent's shieldwall.

AOEs are simultaneous. Most shieldwalled infantry ends up at ARM 18, so the blast damage needs 11s to kill.

While Druids are great in the right list, this specific Kromac build has more of a need for Warpath triggers, as Will outlined in his early comments in the thread.

[Bakemono]

I could care less about the Devouring. I think I use it once in a blue moon. Even so, I do love Druids w/Kromac. I'm a fan of overkill and combining Warpath with Push/Pull is devastating. I will say the Overseer rarely makes it into my list with Kromac, but the Druids are ALWAYS in a 50pt list, and sometimes in a 35pt list.

[CloudFang]

thanks! seeya.

[mercury]

Will you have made no reference to eGaspy when discussing likely Cryx tournament match-ups. Is this an oversight, or do you believe that Kromac vs eGaspy is a neutral match-up and therefore not really worth the attention?

[The Golden Arrow]

I would also want some info on why you think pSkarre is a good match up for kromac? Raiders threat as far as your beasts with warpath (not counting double stones, but most players have tools to counter that), and on feat turn they eat circle beasts for breakfast. They are also very hard to kill for woldstalkers (can usually not aim and def 16 is way to much). I'm not saying its a very bad match up for Kromac, but its hardly ideal.

[skillt]

I would also want some info on why you think pSkarre is a good match up for kromac? Raiders threat as far as your beasts with warpath (not counting double stones, but most players have tools to counter that), and on feat turn they eat circle beasts for breakfast. They are also very hard to kill for woldstalkers (can usually not aim and def 16 is way to much). I'm not saying its a very bad match up for Kromac, but its hardly ideal.

Sorry taking so long to respond -- I've been out of town.

I totally agree with you that the Satyxis raiders are a huge problem for your beasts, but I do not agree that Woldstalkers are ineffectual. 8's to hit you still hit 2/5 of your attacks (give or take...). You kill 2 per turn as long as they dont engage and if you postion the stalkers between you and them they have to either run past them (you win in this scenario), do not engage and stay back, or charge the Woldstalkers, buying you at least one turn so you win this scenario as well. If they charge you with their CMD 0, the sea witch must be wihting 11" of your wold stalkers, which should make her rather easy to deal with. Once she dies, their defense drops drastically, and Rift becomes an excellent tool in killing them. The real problem with Skarre is that fact that the army has 70+ models usually, and that just eats up a HUGE amount of time.

I will edit the post to reflect these comments.

Will

[theaY]

Wow, how did I never see this thread until now?
First and foremost, Will: great write-up.
I actually agree with almost everything you have written.

It seems that anything LEJ has ever written is pretty much my stance. In this case, I have a few differences though.

I'm torn between Bloodtrackers and Woldstalkers. Bloodtrackers are overall better in my opinion. However, you only need so many Warpath moves a turn, and 2 units of Woldstalkers is just more versatile for this purpose alone. You can damage heavies, they wont get in the way, they wont provide souls for Cryx, no character restrictions. The list goes on. I'd say in a non-tournament, I would still prefer the Bloodtrackers. But clearly, the Woldstalkers have a lot of benefits.

As far as the Feral: 100% agree. I know, a lot of you might be thinking, "***, why?!" But it's true. The Feral is often a piece that is just so tempting for people to kill when it's used as bait, but one that many will fail killing, or you will benefit from the trade. Try it. It's awesome. Plus, it kick's a$$ anyway when you need it to.

[Beckman]

the druid overseer's 4" AOE decimated my opponent's shieldwall.

AOEs are simultaneous. Most shieldwalled infantry ends up at ARM 18, so the blast damage needs 11s to kill.

While Druids are great in the right list, this specific Kromac build has more of a need for Warpath triggers, as Will outlined in his early comments in the thread.

It decimated the enemy's shield wall because the AOE was centered behind the shieldwall, and therefore their shield bonus did not apply.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I'm torn between Bloodtrackers and Woldstalkers. Bloodtrackers are overall better in my opinion. However, you only need so many Warpath moves a turn, and 2 units of Woldstalkers is just more versatile for this purpose alone. You can damage heavies, they wont get in the way, they wont provide souls for Cryx, no character restrictions. The list goes on. I'd say in a non-tournament, I would still prefer the Bloodtrackers. But clearly, the Woldstalkers have a lot of benefits.

As far as the Feral: 100% agree. I know, a lot of you might be thinking, "***, why?!" But it's true. The Feral is often a piece that is just so tempting for people to kill when it's used as bait, but one that many will fail killing, or you will benefit from the trade. Try it. It's awesome. Plus, it kick's a$$ anyway when you need it to.

Actually I agree here, I started using the feral with Baldur2 for the arm and later thought "Hey, you know who else has an ARM buff? Kromac!"
I'm still trying stuff with Baldur 2 (Literally last thursday I threw out the SR list I have been using for months that I was going to take to hardcore, next try: 2 ferals, Ghetorix and Megalith.) but Ferals are never going away.

I think Will has me almost convinced on Woldstalkers too, I only played 2 units with Baldur1 but they will make more lists, seeing them used against me has helped too, they are really good, if we ever get a warlock that buffs ranged units... mmmmm...

[Mattho2k3]

The reason I like 2 units of Woldstalkers is they don't clog up the middle. Bloodtrackers, for me at least, clog up the middle killing my opponents tarpit. The problem with that sometimes is they can block my own charge lanes.

[Omegon]

Was there going to be a minion/merc part aswell for this tactica discussing viable choises for Kromac?

If this has been answered before, then I'm sorry

[skillt]

It was not planned -- but I can say that basically of the merc/minions are not worthwhile except Swamp Gobbers. I may add it in later though.

Will

[taffyjoe]

Actually I agree here, I started using the feral with Baldur2 for the arm and later thought "Hey, you know who else has an ARM buff? Kromac!"
I'm still trying stuff with Baldur 2 (Literally last thursday I threw out the SR list I have been using for months that I was going to take to hardcore, next try: 2 ferals, Ghetorix and Megalith.) but Ferals are never going away.

I think Will has me almost convinced on Woldstalkers too, I only played 2 units with Baldur1 but they will make more lists, seeing them used against me has helped too, they are really good, if we ever get a warlock that buffs ranged units... mmmmm...

Or imagine if we got Rangers - suddenly Reeves look decent and all our other ranged options become pretty dam good...

I've come to enjoy Woldstalkers, great cheap unit.

[tzeentchling]

It was not planned -- but I can say that basically of the merc/minions are not worthwhile except Swamp Gobbers. I may add it in later though.

Will

What about something like Nyss Hunters in place of the Woldstalkers? And couldn't something be said about the Thrullg and the Totem Hunter? Bone Grinders could be useful for recasting animuses of dead beasts, though I suppose this typical list shouldn't lose Primal or Lightning Strike until sufficiently late in the game anyway.