Kromac the Ravenous: An In-depth Guide.

[Blaque]

Nyss don't trigger Warpath. That's a big factor for why I don't generally bother with Minions for Kromac or a lot of Circle really: they are actively anti-synergistic with him and spending what can amount ot a fifth of your list on models that don't actually help you towards your list's main goals is a bit against my personal instincts.

I think the Feralgeist and Swamp Gobbers are the ones I usually reach for. Swamp Gobbers are pretty obvious. The Feralgeist is neat mostly since it has really good scenario use. Many armies simply don't have the time or resources to deal with a one-point solo like it. That said, it's kind of my, "If I can only fit 1pt.' model personally (I like Gallows Groves in groups of more than one, or they feel a bit lowish on redundency).

And stuff.

[Llael'sHope]

Nyss don't trigger Warpath. That's a big factor for why I don't generally bother with Minions for Kromac or a lot of Circle really: they are actively anti-synergistic with him and spending what can amount ot a fifth of your list on models that don't actually help you towards your list's main goals is a bit against my personal instincts.

.

They make pretty solid reinforcements. Fast, hit well, late game range and Cylena harder to aim at if you are already all up in their face with the rest of your army.

[VOLK]

As for reinforcements for Kromac, the easiest/best thing is probably a beast. With warpath, that's 8" of threat from the flank edge before the beast activates. Shadowhorn walks 6", jumps 5", throws caster 8"?

[skillt]

They make pretty solid reinforcements. Fast, hit well, late game range and Cylena harder to aim at if you are already all up in their face with the rest of your army.

I agree, but because they do not trigger warpath I do not like them with Kromac. I think he can pick better flanks, which I hope to go into soon. :-)

Will

[Blaque]

I think Wolf Riders are not a terrible Flanking unit. I think the combination of a Feral and a Gallows Grove was something talked about some. There's also a Griffon and Bloodweavers.

And stuff.

[Garbin]

I think Gallows Groves cannot be used as a reinforcements. It has Strange Growth that prevents it being placed. And Reinforcements are placed. Or was that updated/ruled otherwise?

[Ruan]

It was brought up in the rules forum, but an Infernal never chimed in. As I've seen this now come up multiple times, I'm bringing it up again so we can get some actual clarification, as I just noticed something...

According to the Steamroller rules, there's nothing actually -stopping- you from taking Gallows Groves as Reinforcements. The rules do not, currently, account for a model that can be taken as a Reinforcement, and yet cannot actually be put into play - likely because Gallows Groves are pretty much the only model in the game that this applies to that I can think of.

So, bringing this up in the rules forum.

[abmcdonald]

How do you deal with egaspy?

[SageofLodoss]

It was brought up in the rules forum, but an Infernal never chimed in. As I've seen this now come up multiple times, I'm bringing it up again so we can get some actual clarification, as I just noticed something...

According to the Steamroller rules, there's nothing actually -stopping- you from taking Gallows Groves as Reinforcements. The rules do not, currently, account for a model that can be taken as a Reinforcement, and yet cannot actually be put into play - likely because Gallows Groves are pretty much the only model in the game that this applies to that I can think of.

So, bringing this up in the rules forum.

You were thinking a bit too literal with this one. Rules of standard deployment at the start of any game also use the words "placed/place" Even all the way back in the scenarios in Prime/Primal. If Strange Growth worked the way you thought it did, you could never play with Gallows Grove, ever.

[Ruan]

Oh, I perfectly understand how it should probably be Read as Intended. However, there are plenty of cases where what people thought was Read as Intended turned out to be overturned by an Infernal ruling.

Furthermore: Warmachine and Hordes is a literal game. You Read as Written, not Read as Intended. There's no fudging around with badly worded rules like there is in Warhammer 40k. There are no cases where people are playing rules differently because of different interpretations of the rules - that's why Infernals exist, to ensure that everyone is on the same page and using the same rules interpretations. You still might have a tournament organizer giving their own personal ruling during a tournament, but that's their prerogative as a TO.

As it stands right now, Read as Written, then I suppose you would never be able to play a Gallows Grove. If that is the way it reads as written, then there should be a caveat added via errata, or at the very least an Infernal ruling saying "yes, it's perfectly fine to use these in normal deployment or as Reinforcements". Without that, it could technically be disallowed by a TO because of the way rules could be interpreted - particularly the Reinforcements.

Until an Infernal rules on it, I guarentee there are going to be discussions and comments as to whether or not people can take Gallows Groves as Reinforcements. You might think I'm being too literal on this, but what happens if a few months down the line you try to bring a Gallows Grove as your Reinforcements only to have your tournament organizer tell you that you cannot, because that's his interpretation of the rules? Without a definitive answer from an Infernal, that is the threat that you are operating under. Personally, I would like to have the ability to plan ahead for a tournament, build a list that includes Gallows Groves as Reinforcements, and be able to know with absolute certainty that when I get there, I can safely tell my opponent and the tournament organizer that yes, it is legal to have Gallows Groves as Reinforcements.

---

Anyway, it's a moot point, as we have an answer from an Organized Play Consultant.

Gallows Groves can indeed be taken as Reinforcements, and the SR2013 document will clarify it. Cheers!

[Ap0th]

I could use some input from you more experienced Kromac players. I've only recently started playing him and, while I find him to be a great caster, I'm having one large problem: keeping him from getting his face shot off. I'm finding that his medium base is making screening him difficult and the use of his feat is typically leaving me wounded enough that I'm risking getting shot and killed. Now I realize that some of my issues are mistakes I'm making (not leaving enough fury to transfer, or absent-mindedly maxing my remaining beasts fury so I can't transfer) but I played eCaine last night and realized that, even if I don't make a large mistake, I still run a large risk of being assassinated. I'm currently running Feral, Stalker, Ghetorix and am loving it. I realize I could drop the Feral for a Woldguardian and it would mitigate the issue, but I'd rather keep the Feral if possible. Any advice from you more experienced players?

[Rez]

Swamp Gobbers are your friend. The cloud they drop is crucial in keeping Kromac alive against shooting. eCaine is a pain, but he cant see through clouds, so as long as your careful with the placement of said cloud and have Bestial up, he wont be able to get LOS, and wont be able to Gatecrash into gunfighter range with you. If your opponent has ways to see through clouds your in a tough-ish position, but you just need to identify which threats can get to you on any given turn and hold onto an appropriate amount of transfers. Dont be afraid to pop your feat for this purpose - upkeep your spells, cast Bestial, pop feat, maybe drop an animi and camp some transfers. Its not the greatest feat in the world, and its often best used in this purpose, keeping the pressure on without giving the enemy a chance to assassinate.

[Gobos]

Check matchups section of this thread, skillt covered the most important aspects of eCaine matchup there.

[Ap0th]

Swamp Gobbers are your friend. The cloud they drop is crucial in keeping Kromac alive against shooting. eCaine is a pain, but he cant see through clouds, so as long as your careful with the placement of said cloud and have Bestial up, he wont be able to get LOS, and wont be able to Gatecrash into gunfighter range with you. If your opponent has ways to see through clouds your in a tough-ish position, but you just need to identify which threats can get to you on any given turn and hold onto an appropriate amount of transfers. Dont be afraid to pop your feat for this purpose - upkeep your spells, cast Bestial, pop feat, maybe drop an animi and camp some transfers. Its not the greatest feat in the world, and its often best used in this purpose, keeping the pressure on without giving the enemy a chance to assassinate.

Thanks for this. This is the idea that was starting to form in my head. In my game last night we didn't realize until after that eCaine can't see through the cloud (he only sees past the concealment if in the cloud) and I realized that would have saved me some headache. I had also had the thought of popping feat defensively to regenerate fury and boost arm after casting my full compliment of spells. You could only do it once, but on the critical third turn or so when the assassination threat becomes a much larger possibility, being arm 17 and sitting on 3-4 transfers would go a long way to deterring the ability to get the assassination off.

[VOLK]

Fury does not boost ARM, unless you mean beasting out. While the +3 ARM is nice, using the feat this way only seems useful if you don't intend to use the extra fury for anything but an animus or two, and don't have much fury to leech next turn.

[Ap0th]

I meant the + 3 arm for beasting out.

Frankly, I'm finding that I don't need the extra fury that often. Spamming Rift can be nice at times, but I would think I would almost be better served (at least against my eCaine opponent who was running precursors as a screen for long gunners and gun mages) by beasting out after upkeeping and casting beastial and cutting for a few extra transfers. You're right, you would need to be a little careful about how much fury is hanging out, but I haven't had much of an issue in that regard with stones and the wilder about as well.

[PG_Crump]

I agree, but because they do not trigger warpath I do not like them with Kromac. I think he can pick better flanks, which I hope to go into soon. :-)

Will

Hey Will, how much have you been testing flank forces with this list? I agree with you that Nyss Hunters aren't a great flank force with him, for mentioned reasons. I feel like bloodtrackers+nuala would be a good flank for him, however I usually have Nuala in another list. If only Woldshrimp were FA 4. So I feel like the best options are, for me at least, a unit of wolf riders (still to be tested) or a Warpwolf Stalker. I've thus far had a lot of success with the stalker as a flank, as talked about briefly in my recruits section of the MOMcast. Since there are gallows groves in the list it allows for Kromac to be positioned where he is safe and still be able to give a wild aggression to the WW stalker coming in off the flank. If they put units in the zone your stalker gets to live the WA+Warpath sprinkler dream. Just my thoughts, was wondering what you had been working on.

[mattieK]

Crump I've been thinking along the same lines. Running an additional heavy lets you begin trading pieces earlier but if you're running Kromac effectively, you won't lose a heavy and will run too hot. Running infantry doesn't strain your fury base and gives you the flexibility to leave your flank unsupported. I've been playing around with Wolfriders as well but run a minimum unit with LotF to great effect.

[skillt]

I've been testing Feral + Grove. Its worked out very well thus far. I hopefully will have the time after Adepti-con to finish this up... I've been really busy painting trying to get everything done for Adepti-con...

Will

[langbenj]

Something I've been mulling over, what do you think about dahlia and skarath with Kromac? With her song she can't be targeted by melee or ranged attacks. With Bestial up you probably can't use magic to hit her. And with giving herself prowl she's stealthed in a gobber cloud. Even without the giant snake and hit 10" corrosive spray being able to shut down orders in a 8" bubble seems pretty great.

[VOLK]

Again, why would you waste points on minions when there are better in-faction options that actually work with Kromac's spell list?

[langbenj]

The synergy lies with the combo of bestial and her song. She's basically an almost unkillable model that shuts down orders within 8". Yes they don't trigger warpath or get any of his other bonuses but there are synergies.

[skillt]

The main problem I have with them is that she can still be attacked by non-living models, or though round about ways of targeting like slamming her Wurm through her or sprays targeting other things. She is also very expensive at 9 points and kills very little. I would much rather have models that can kill things than ones that don't. Probably not a terrible choice, but absolutely not the optimal choice.

Will

[PG_LEJKaya]

I was using the Backclad again recently, I have to maintain disagreement on this.
The +2" charge helps you so you can not use warpath to get in range (I have had bounding on a stalker too but with Ghettorix now the Gnarlhorn is less useful), this means you use warpath after killing the stuff up there and then sprint back for SPD +3" in total.

When not doing hunters mark, you can spray, but as mentioned this does not trigger warpath, so recently I have tried just charging him at stuff and with MAT 7 and the charge die it has been reliable enough.

[smw356]

I think hunters mark as a threat range extender is sort of a trap, since to get the most out of it you need to plan your turn around having it, thus if it misses you're typically going to be hurting.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I think hunters mark as a threat range extender is sort of a trap, since to get the most out of it you need to plan your turn around having it, thus if it misses you're typically going to be hurting.

No, with Kromac this is not the case.
If you miss with hunters mark you then must use warpath to get in range and then don't sprint quite so far out.
It basically helps on the sprint move rather than the charge if you use warpath in that way.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I don't think there is a "right" answer on this one. I don't think the Blackclad is a terrible choice, other than agreeing that I don't like that it doesn't trigger warpath with its spray. To me it seems that if you want to "max out" your threat range to basically create tons of assassination vectors that it might work. Of course, with that in mind, we're looking to try to put a 2" + 3" + 6" + 3" + 2" = 16" charge out there, and 2" of that is using reach. To put the Blackclad into a position to actually work that out he'd need to start basically right next to which ever beast is making these movements and/or in front of it or you'll be out of the range.

I think the scenario LEJ suggested is viable to some degree too, but then I think we're starting to talk more about play style than anything. I would say that it is EASY for the Blackclad to become a trap, rather than just saying it is one, because it makes it so much easier to over-extend yourself, or make a risky assassination attempt you probably shouldn't.

[PG_LEJKaya]

cheddercaveman is mostly right, but don't just think of assassinations. Having a beast that can charge 11" (+Reach) kill an opposing heavy or berserk a few infantry then move back 9" is not something most lists can handle (Especially with no spells!) and you can just pick them apart turn by turn.

[PG_JamesT]

Hey Will,

I just wanted to say thanks for this thread and writeup, as it has helped me get into Circle and Hordes in general from Warmachine. I've had great success with Kromac at 35 points, and most of the time when I lose with him it's because I've misplayed, not because of an inherent weakness in the list.

However, yesterday I went up against Kreoss2 and got absolutely eaten up by his feat turn, since so much of Circle relies on high DEF and most of his army was weaponmaster infantry auto-hitting. I also HAD to move up my army into their threat ranges because of the scenario we were playing, Gauntlet. Self-sacrifice completely ruined the normal synergy between Berserk and Warpath as well and denied me my normal Sprint.

To me it felt like a case of Blastoise on Charizard, but in your writeups you say it's a fairly neutral matchup. I was wondering if you could give me some more insight into how you deal with this list.

Thanks!

[VagrantPoet]

Does anyone take Saxon Orrick with him? I have three big nasty wolves, but two don't have pathfinder.

I've been playing a fairly cookie cutter net-deck:

Kromac
-Stalker
-Feral
-Ghetorix
Woldstalkers
Shifting Stones + UA
Swamp Gobbers

But the lack of pathfinder is killing me suprisingly often.

I'm considering swapping the feral for a gnarlhorn and the swamp gobbers for orrick,
but... I can't see how I'd deal with losing the feral's killing power, tied with the ability to be 14/20
and still relatively expendable.

Thoughts?

[Warcaster Feiss]

Does anyone take Saxon Orrick with him? I have three big nasty wolves, but two don't have pathfinder.

Never, because Saxon can only hand out Pathfinder to Warrior models, not 'beasts.

[VagrantPoet]

Goddamn. That's annoying. So is there a non-argus way to get pathfinder with kromac?

How do people deal with it usually? Hit and run around target's behind walls? Send in the stalker?

[taffyjoe]

Goddamn. That's annoying. So is there a non-argus way to get pathfinder with kromac?

How do people deal with it usually? Hit and run around target's behind walls? Send in the stalker?

Pureblood to warp ghostly, which is superior to pathfinder but you give up your other warps and need the pureblood.

Pathfinder is one of the reasons people prefer the stalker to the feral (although I love my feral), it adds to the overall flexibility of the package.

[Pixl]

"Sentry Stone & Mannikins: The Sentry Stone is as interesting choice for Kromac. It does not really bring anything to Kromac's list and doesn't really give you any benefits. The sprays from the Mannikins at RAT4 with no way of increasing..."

Fury linked makes it possible to boots attack and damage rolls..fyi.

[VagrantPoet]

I really like the feral. But no pathfinder can be disastrous in a list that wants to have wolves darting around.

Would 2 stalkers and ghetorix be better? It means you can afford to have one stalker up there with Gheto while the other hangs back as a secondary threat, and if it goes pear shaped, you don't lose lightning strike.

However, the ability to warp for speed/arm has saved me many times, being able to make a feral arm 20 with kromac is suprisingly hard to kill... And most importantly mat7. Two stalkers means a lot more cycling Wild Agression. Stupid Legion... With their stupid having all the pathfinder beasts...

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I think the best way to avoid issues with the Feral/Ghetorix not having pathfinder is just through putting them into the right place on the table and/or utilizing your shifting stones as well as you can. You could add in an Argus, which I don't think is as bad as most people seem to think but its another 4 points in a list that is already pretty packed, plus you can't have Primal or Lightning Strike on a beast AND have Tracker on them.

[Bishop84]

I've just recently started using Kromac, and I'm finding the Warpath move pretty sufficient to get something out of/around difficult terrain.

Honestly I think the fact that most everything in Circle having pathfinder spoils us. Then you get one of the few pieces that don't have it, and it seems like so much effort to make it work. My other faction is Protectorate, and in most lists there's not a pathfinder in sight.

[Warcaster Feiss]

I find in general that good placement is keeping Ghetorix from being hindered by linear obstacles, it's good to take stock at the start of the game where the terrain that will slow Ghetorix (or a Feral) down is, and try to somewhat plan where you want to engage.

If you absolutely have to cross linear obstacles at some point, try and be pretty much base to base with it, that way you can get over the wall with a Warpath move Probably the way I best counter lack of Pathfinder. About the only thing that'll get in your way then is the multiple wreck markers that Ghetorix will put in play as he totals your opponent's 'jacks one at a time

Having played Khador and Mercs from time to time, it's good practice for utilising heavies without Pathfinder.

As for Ghetorix + 2 Stalkers, it works, and it's a lot of fun! But, it does leave you lacking versatility somewhat. Replacing one of them with a Feral gives you a 'beast with slightly improved MAT, better able to take hits than the Stalker, and better at Trampling (higher MAT + Warp SPD for longer tramples).

Alternatively, and contrary to many's choices, I've started using the Pureblood as my 3rd Warpwolf, and I'm liking it. Ghostly adds a nice bit of utility to both Ghetorix and the Stalker, and a 10" spray is nice to be able to reach out and eliminate your opponent's crucial support pieces before Warpath'ing 3" back out of some threat ranges!

[Ghost Rider]

I want to thank everyone who has posted their good ideas to this thread, especially Skillt for his insightful write up of Kromac. I started playing him for the first time 2 weeks ago in my league and so far I am undefeated with him after 5 or 6 games (lost track). Some of my highlights include: Kromac, by his self, killing an uninjured Pureblood. Locking down Sturm and Drang twice and using Kromac and his force to slaughter the farrow down to the warlock (2 great muti-personality games). In a recent Circle on Circle team game I was too busy to use Bestial since they managed to get some warbeasts in our face early on (pesky highly mobile Circle forces ). But with P Kruegar's help, the infantry forces of Morvhana and Grayle were no match for us. Leaped over a bunch of Bane Thralls in order to kill Goreshade, before the evil Cryx won the game. He was exactly 13" from Kromac, with no impeding forces within 6" of Kromac.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I'm very interested to hear Will's take on reinforcements and builds for other points, namely 75 points.