Blocking with my face!

[PG_Dino-Czar]

I like a lot of you guys. I like talking about this stuff with you. But I don't actually care if you're doing well with Cygnar or not. I don't think you actually care how I do. Why then all this concern about whether or not Cygnar is "competitive"? Someone wining a major tournament with pure Cygnar will not suddenly cause you to do better in your local scene. It won't even cause you to do better over time. The impact on you, personally, will be zero.

This myopic focus on a perceived gap in a gaming environment where most of us don't even play isn't doing anyone any favors. Worse, the more people force "positive message" threads, the more they reinforce that Cygnar isn't "positive" to begin with. Just relax your sphincters, guys. Some people are always going to whine, some are always going to complain. I know that can get annoying to read, but every counter thread is a tacit admission that the opposition is valid. The more you make it your mission to counteract, the more valid your antithesis becomes.*

So live and let live. If you're reading a particular tone to the general conversation it might behoove you to post a thread about your successes. But please, do not role up your typing sleeves a create a new thread just for the sake of balancing out another. First hand experience and actually inventive play is always a more compelling argument that rote theorymachine, but if you don't have anything new to add you're only inviting the theorymachine crowd and their invisible counter-pick army.

On the other hand, don't be afraid of conflict. Dissenting opinions are not, by default, whining. People who don't like MODEL X frequently have a reason. Trying to shut down all voices but those that agree creates an echo chamber of group think. That isn't valuable and it makes for poor reading. So pipe up if (and only if) you have a real play reason, and don't be combative when someone else does the same. You say the GMCA stinks, I say I play him for his AD and ability to grab objectives. Who is right? Who cares? We can have a bit of fun hashing the whole thing out. Neither of us is being "negative" or "whiney", we're just having a difference of opinion.

And thats okay.

TL;DR

Post because you have something to say, not because someone else made a post you didn't like






*No, the potential for irony in this thread has not escaped me.

[BarskeMannen]

I agree with everything in this post except for the very first part. While I don't personally attend tournaments (I doubt there are any notable ones to attend in Sweden anyway), I'm interested in their results because it's a good representation of how well our faction does when played, ruthlessly, to the height of its capacity. It's not a perfect system since even at a big tournament stage there's still luck to consider as well as skill gaps between players - but even then the general idea is that people who place high in tournaments are good enough not to get completely stomped out due to player error - and it's not directly applicable because I don't necessarily play that sort of game myself. Still, you can discern broad trends as regards faction balance.

People are interested because they'd like to think that the faction they play is capable of going toe to toe with the other factions if played optimally. Nobody wants to think they're fighting an uphill battle, even if they're just playing a relaxed game among friends. Part of it is probably just purchase validation; I used to play a lot of video games, and those of you at least somewhat in tune with that subculture probably know how fiercely some people are willing to fight over which gaming console is the best one. Same thing applies to models. I spent a lot of money on a lot of tin, and I'd like to think I'm getting the same game value out of my pieces that someone who bought Cryx figures does. Currently I don't think that's true, and that's where a lot of frustration is coming from. If this were a medium where I could just switch factions at no cost, like if we were all playing Vassal, then I doubt we'd see as much griping.

Still, though, good post.

[GreenJello]

I like a lot of you guys. I like talking about this stuff with you. But I don't actually care if you're doing well with Cygnar or not. I don't think you actually care how I do. Why then all this concern about whether or not Cygnar is "competitive"? Someone wining a major tournament with pure Cygnar will not suddenly cause you to do better in your local scene. It won't even cause you to do better over time. The impact on you, personally, will be zero.

I disagree, since I think that the tourney scene is the best indication of the best play, and has the most record keeping for analysis. It's not perfect, but what is. Having had much experience banging my head against the glass ceiling of armies in other systems that are just under powered, I'm not keen to repeat the experience. Hence the focus, since I have no other better way to access faction strength. I'm very open to suggestions.

Oh, and I think you're basically paraphrasing Dylan's My Back Pages:
In a soldier’s stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I’d become my enemy
In the instant that I preach

[Joasht]

I kinda agree with you. I'm naturally competitive, and while I don't generally jump on the "top dog" bandwagon nor do I powergame, I always want to know how what I'm playing stands in the "power gradient" of any game, and I enjoy learning whatever I can from those more experienced than I.

Initially I was a little down about the whole negativity, but then after a talk with Rolling_Thunder I realized I play Cygnar because I like them, and they fit my playstyle and mindset. And I don't mind Mercs, because this means I effectively have 1.5 faction's worth of viable options and thus, more combinations if I cared to try them out. Also, I'm the only active Cygnar player here (I like being different) and I like painting blue.

The competitiveness of the faction will vary over time. Who knows, in a few years, perhaps Cygnar will be the new top faction? If it is then its alright, simply means that it would become less of a juggling act to win, but on the flipside we get an influx of more powergamer-types. If Cygnar remains the underdog thats fine too, then we'd be different from everyone else.

At the end of the day, what is the game to you? Is it purely about smashing someone's face in and winning tournies, or just to enjoy yourself? If winning = enjoying, then perhaps its best to go with something else, or at the very least, maintain a secondary "competitive" army.

[VortexBlue]

I concur, if you lose every single game and think the faction is to blame for that then play a different faction that you think you can win with. Whether or not someone else can win with cygnar in a different meta or tourney has very little bearing on whether you can win where you play. All of these threads where people say the faction is broken because we have to "try harder" to win, or that we need said model because other factions have them is pointless and getting old. If privateer press intended us to have said model they would release it. What I see with every new release is moving cygnar away from that static gunline, and moving us into the lightning/denial game. Which personally I find a whole lot more interesting to play anyway.

[fire4effekt]

I could honestly care less how the rest of you do. My cygnar wins and loses. It happens, and i'm always up for more. Just because you have the same bat as a major league player, you're not gonna hit like him. Just cause you have the tournament winning army it doesnt mean you'll beat me. Cause honestly most of the copy cats, like in magic(net decks) are dumb. They don't know why the models are there and don't know the thought process on why they were picked. The players who show up here regularlly have net decks or lists and just get trounced. If you want a net list, get it, but by all means learn it.

[thebill77718]

I'm offended that you're offended that I'm offended that your offended by something I said in a thread that one time.

Sarcasm aside, the only real complaints I have are with the disparity between Hordes and Warmachine. Namely 2 places:

1) Disruption is worthless against hordes. It is a very, very simple fix. Errata Disruption with "Add the following sentence to the end of Disruption's description: A warbeast affected by Disruption immediately gains 1 FURY, up to it's maximum allowed FURY." Bam, done. Fiddles with the Warlock's FURY management, like it fiddles with a warcaster's FOCUS management, albeit in a different way.

2) FURY management solos are OUT OF CONTROL in hordes. Forsaken, shepherds, beast handlers, that circle druid guy... Hordes is supposed to be about running risks that are offset by the reward the risk grants. The abundance of rediculously efficient FURY management solos virtually negate the risk, and leave only the reward.

That said, Long Gunners and Trenchers are models I'll never use, but that's because of how the game works (melee oriented) rather than their cost/abilities (which pretty much everyone agrees is off).

[whats82]

I think someone winning a major event with the faction you play does have a positive effect on how you play. You can take note that certain list works well, certain strategy works well, and that those things could compete with the best out there may change your perspective.

[Edwars]

I agree with both the spirit and intent of this thread. Well done.

Personally, I think people have become too focused on who gets the shiny prize in tournaments. Like everyone I like shiny toys, but I don't think they are a true reflection of a game's balance.

As was mentioned in some of the other currently active threads, the win/loss ratio of almost ALL factions at adepticon was 50%. This is a true reflection of balance.

When you consider this and also consider cygnar great league record over the years, how can you say cygnar is wholey unbalanced?

[Eagle dan 4]

After all the positive and negative threads on this forum its nice to see a neutral one....

its like a bucket of warm wall paper paste. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

sorry where was i. lol. unfortunately i don't think some people will follow this thread, and i disagree with your point about feeling like you should have to post a positive comment because said thread is to negative. obviously if you don't feel feel for the model, then don't post, however if I see a newer player asking for help on a particular unit or maybe they are comparing units, (for the sake of it SG vs SB) and all the comments are one sided i feel like they aren't getting any experience, they are being told X is rubbish and Y is great so they will take Y. i think this is wrong.

When you post you have to think about how other people will see your post, even if your complaining about something maybe you should add a positive to add a little juxtaposition.

finally, if i were to add something (i dont think you added it dino, although im tired and could be wrong) i would say to stop with all this cloud theory machining, and cross faction comparisons. saying you think model X works in situation X is just worthless, especially if the situation is unlikely to ever happen, every game is different and you have to respect that. hence why any theory machine should be backed up by experience, that to me is more helpful.

as for cross faction comparisons, they just don't work, you have to consider all sorts of vectors, what else is in the faction, caster support etc, it makes it impossible.....

hopefully we can see more useful threads on the cygnar forum (not saying i make useful ones) but if you have a new idea then please share,

always learning! take care guys!

[PG_Devilsquid]

I don't even play Cygnar, and I'm offended at your being offensive about possible offencions.

Yes, that's a word.

I'm so offended, I may purchase a Cygnar Battlebox, just to prove that they're not terrible. So there!

[Eagle dan 4]

I don't even play Cygnar, and I'm offended at your being offensive about possible offencions.

Yes, that's a word.

I'm so offended, I may purchase a Cygnar Battlebox, just to prove that they're not terrible. So there!

maybe you should do that!

and maybe you'll play it!

and maybe you'll like it! D:

[PG_Devilsquid]

Inconceivable!

[FearLord]

I think someone winning a major event with the faction you play does have a positive effect on how you play. You can take note that certain list works well, certain strategy works well, and that those things could compete with the best out there may change your perspective.

This is very true - until Down With Pope won that Hardcore with his Kraye list suggesting Kraye was competitive was a stoning offense on here. Kraye was always competitive, but no one was willing to see it or listen to those of us suggesting ways to use him...

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Be fair. I never said Kraye wasn't competitive. I've called his play style boring and cowardly, I've said that he doesn't work if your opponent sees the jack bullet coming, and more besides. I'll stand by all of it.

None of that should be construed as saying that he cannot win, I've won with him myself. That hasn't changed my opinion in the least because it isn't related to how much I've enjoyed playing him. Oddly enough, downwiththepope's win didn't change my opinion either.

[FearLord]

Be fair. I never said Kraye wasn't competitive. I've called his play style boring and cowardly, I've said that he doesn't work if your opponent sees the jack bullet coming, and more besides. I'll stand by all of it.

None of that should be construed as saying that he cannot win, I've won with him myself. That hasn't changed my opinion in the least because it isn't related to how much I've enjoyed playing him. Oddly enough, downwiththepope's win didn't change my opinion either.

This may be hard to hear, but not everything is about you

[Amarel]

My last two games were with a Tier 2 pHaley list and a pCaine list with just Light Jacks, Gun Mages (of all ilk) and Rangers. A win and a draw (pCaine left with 8 boxes and Ashlynn with 3). I also find Siege rather dull.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

This may be hard to hear, but not everything is about you

Uh... I need a citation on that.

[Excedis]

So being a new guy I'm not entirely sure how this will be received...but I'll state it anyways.

I came to this game adn this faction from WH40K (I still play) adn I picked Cygnar because it was supposedly a combo arms (please help me with the actual term) force. I like the ability to shoot hard and then bring up another unit to punch you in the face....or do it all with one unit!!! But I will say I personally am very annoyed with both the "Cygnar Sucks" and the "Cygnar Rules" threads I've been seeing. I like the discussion ones (I am very new to forums so my experience is limited) because I learn something from them. I like the light hearted ones because hey, who doesn't like having a good time with a hobby you enjoy? To me a forum is somewhere we go to share experiences, learn about other's styles and tactics, and brag/talk about our own.....kind of like an old fashioned tavern......

Sorry for the rant...had it on my mind But I do like the point this thread brings up and I do believe it should carry over to actual use in the forum. Personally I have had great games with my Cygnar...all two of them....against Menoth. And my opponent has some really good experience with some really good players up by us (when I'm not at military university). Both times I won with what, from what I can gather, is not an exceptional list. I only took casualties in the one game with my long gunners and I lost four of them out of ten.

Man I ranted again....I need to stop doing that..... I guess my request/point is for people to start talking more about experiences, ideas, and have general debates that are light hearted and informative, and not overly opinion driven and not a bash/complain fest.

Thanks!!!

[shaner]

So being a new guy I'm not entirely sure how this will be received...but I'll state it anyways.

I came to this game adn this faction from WH40K (I still play) adn I picked Cygnar because it was supposedly a combo arms (please help me with the actual term) force. I like the ability to shoot hard and then bring up another unit to punch you in the face....or do it all with one unit!!! But I will say I personally am very annoyed with both the "Cygnar Sucks" and the "Cygnar Rules" threads I've been seeing. I like the discussion ones (I am very new to forums so my experience is limited) because I learn something from them. I like the light hearted ones because hey, who doesn't like having a good time with a hobby you enjoy? To me a forum is somewhere we go to share experiences, learn about other's styles and tactics, and brag/talk about our own.....kind of like an old fashioned tavern......

Sorry for the rant...had it on my mind But I do like the point this thread brings up and I do believe it should carry over to actual use in the forum. Personally I have had great games with my Cygnar...all two of them....against Menoth. And my opponent has some really good experience with some really good players up by us (when I'm not at military university). Both times I won with what, from what I can gather, is not an exceptional list. I only took casualties in the one game with my long gunners and I lost four of them out of ten.

Man I ranted again....I need to stop doing that..... I guess my request/point is for people to start talking more about experiences, ideas, and have general debates that are light hearted and informative, and not overly opinion driven and not a bash/complain fest.

Thanks!!!

Amen, brother.

First off, I feel I should apologize for my threads that kinda forced folks to only write positive stuff. Dino is correct in that some negative info is not inherently whining, but the sharing of a negative experience. I get what his point is, those experiences help us to avoid others' mistakes and pitfalls. So, I apologize if my threads offended anyone. That being said, I do understand where this new dude is coming from...all the Cygnar sucks threads are rather disheartening for new players, which is what I had hoped to avoid...being relatively new to this game myself.

[PG_Devilsquid]

This may be hard to hear, but not everything is about you

Nope, it's all about me.

[whats82]

To be exact, almost everything can be competitive if you manage to dodge the bad matchups or manage to capitalize on an opponent's unfamiliarity of your army. It's generally the ratio of good matchups vs bad matchups that we argue about, with the top tier caster having the least amount of bad matchups, especially against other top tier casters. But sometimes we just want to see someone else pull it off to be inspired to believe.

[Calibre]

In all Fairness whining is suppose to happen that is the only way PP or game designers can point out what problems a faction is currently facing and decide whether or not it is justified or not. I can name quite a few of other game systems where faction imbalances are specifically made to promote the sale of models or new released factions. I for one did not join Cygnar, warmachine to be outshined by another factions and the impressions I get is that PP does not promote this type "tactic".

Originally when Hordes was released it was suppose to be an entire system not meant to be mixed in tournaments with Warmachine, and for some time I was really happy this was decided to be this way. Then due to demands an TO experimenting Warmahordes became popular which resulted in MK 2 and a lot of nerfing on our side. Suddenly our opponents doubled, then came the "sticky scenarios" where you find one faction completely being at a disadvantage and the only way PP could fix it is to add models and say "Lets give something to mercs then they can play it so they'll be balanced and Cygnar (or other faction) can hire it so they'll be balanced", I'm really sorry but at the beginning Cygnar was a stand alone faction and I really don't care about what's in the fluff, mercs only came later and Cygnar players according to me should always have a "good" option to filling a requirement with an infaction model.

Personally I'm feeling more and more inclined to start purchasing merc models to be competitive in tournaments, and maybe that's what PP wants us to do? I have been playing Cygnar for almost 5 years now and currently our national champion 2 years in row now, is a Legion player who admitted that he went to the forums read-up on what is the most powerfull-est army there was out there purchased both his armies and with them won 8 tournaments in row for the last 2 years now (He kinda throws it in the rest faces that model and stat wise they are just superior). I can deal with experienced players but this should not happen. I really would like to beat him but my biggest problem is there are 11 horde players and 3 warmachine players to eventually get to him and as Cygnar I simply can not build a general list to go up against all the d@m horde out there which I could have easily done if they were warmachine players, which most of them were.....so my question is, if Warmachine and Horde are supposedly balanced then why have so many other guys moved over to Horde and why is it for us so hard to beat them. Neither of the 3 previously mentioned warmachine players including me has since the Warmahorde change seen the top 3 ranking which wasn't the case when it was only Warmachine and I have personally spoken to a Menoth player which ROFL stomped the Legion player's armies into the ground but he admitted that if he had to play in the tournament he would not be able to face him for the title as Menoth is not balanced to compete with all the various Horde faction armies currently running in our tournaments, so he'd rather stick to his Troll bricks.

[Polar_Bear]

Play the figs you want to play and have fun.

That's really all that matters.

PB

[Calibre]

Play the figs you want to play and have fun.

That's really all that matters.

PB

Some places are not as fortunate as others, LG stores do not organize friendly events or even have facilities (boards, terrains and such), which I suspect they should have to be gangers. The only events we can attend is nationals or friendly games against friends, which actually play warmachine and introduced me to the game. The game stops being "fun" after you competed a couple of times in nationals paying $35 for entry every time and not making any progression as a Cygnar player due to the fact that Hordes are dominating the event and most of the people playing Hordes does it because they know that their previously played warmachine factions doesn't stand a chance anymore. Other than that there is a few clubs, limited only to those who have extra money in their pocket as they charge about $20 monthly membership cost and hold in club tournaments every now and then (The place where most of the other Horde players come from), and even if your pay the club costs you will find yourself subjected to internal politics and the TO be biased towards longer standing members. I love Cygnar, I don't want to stop playing Cygnar and I don't want to buy a Horde army so I can actually start progressing, I don't want to invest into mercs which helps against specific Horde factions and is situational. I want PP to notice that Cygnar is not doing as well as the other factions are. We don't want a auto win button but at least some infaction models which isn't a pushover (I hate having to include the B13th just so the rest of my army might be able to shoot stealth and horde just include 1 model, BAM and it counters them, if you need an example Ravagores, Striders even the humble Raek counters them), at least just fix the MK 1 rules still existing on our cards, fix the shield guard rule which we got to protect our casters with which is currently being exploited. IMO Its kinda ridiculous that we got shared caster in Wrath which better off when fielded as a Merc than a Cygnar caster and a joke of a character jack costing the same points as the Avatar and not nearly on the same level, personally I feel we could lose the Truimph and no one be lesser off without having him.

[whats82]

To everyone who don't have access to a competitive and diverse local meta, my advice has always been to play vassal for practice. I do that when I don't have time to visit the local stores and there's usually good quality players to practice against.

Cygnar has its weaknesses, it can be competitive, but struggles a bit more than other factions, so you have to tailor your lists a bit more and ditch personal preferences about what you like and what you want to make work. That about sums it up for my perspective. I play Cygnar competitively.

[Eagle dan 4]

fun way of playing.

either use every model you own, or if this is uneven choose equal options from each side, (trying to match competitive levels) then you write your oponents list, and he writes yours.

Both of you will usually end up with weird lists that aren't competitive but are fun to play, it forces you to take models that you may not take otherwise, and idk its a bit of fun.

sometimes, especially on this forum, there seems to be a lack of "fun"

devoid of feelings...... must be competitive, this isn't competitive, this is rubbish because it isn't competitive....... the zombies are coming D:

[Dan from Chicago]

Inconceivable!

I thought you were already playing the Ducks ... I mean Swans

[SillySod]

Calibre - I dont mean this too seriosuly but it just sounds like you need to learn to play, or maybe just find a good place to play? ... try vassal. If you are polite then vassal is quite a friendly environment. The best players tend to be very good too.

"offencions"

Yes, that's a word.

**** no that is not a word. Maybe you yanks have picked it up by accident but we stopped using it around about 1872

[ricefrisbeetreats]

Play the figs you want to play and have fun.

That's really all that matters.

PB

While I love the logic behind it and even say something similar to new players, PB, there are real problems with the statement.

I stopped going to the regular meet-up for Warmachine after I realized "for fun" games were more like "I'm here to make sure that if you didn't field the best stuff and play our best, you will lose". Instead, I spend a lot of time with newer players teaching them the ropes and playing fun lists with stuff I haven't dared use on the more hardcore crowd. Even so, I found myself saying, "Don't buy that. It sucks for this group."

Most people have a budget. I know I do. I haven't bought a model for Privateer Press in 2 years. Sometimes new players need a guiding hand to tell them what will and will not work.

The game I spend a lot more time on is Legend of the Five Rings. In that game, tournament wins do matter because it influences what happens in the story. Bad factions don't win events and I read plenty of "Here's why my can sucks" threads.

Warmachine doesn't have that same design. GenCon 2010 didn't change the story for Wrath. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of any big prizes given out except medals and trophies. Sure, a Cygnar win might give some of you faction pride, but I prefer seeing my gaming buddy take first and saying, "Hey! I know him! I regularly clobber his guys on our game night."

Either way, have fun. Find a way to have fun and be proactive about it. It doesn't always take new models to change play. Run AD models within the 10" of normal deployment, behind your other guys or slam your own jack into their caster. Try something different than what you're doing and I'll bet you'll see something interesting happen.

[PG_Agamemnon]

Devilsquid.... didn't you announce that you were joining the swan a year or so ago? Quacks for the quack god if memory serves....

[GreenJello]

I stopped going to the regular meet-up for Warmachine after I realized "for fun" games were more like "I'm here to make sure that if you didn't field the best stuff and play our best, you will lose".

"For fun" can quickly become exactly that, if you and the other guy don't have an implicit or explicit agreement as to what "For fun" means. Somebody always ups the ante, and really the only restriction are the rules.

Warmachine doesn't have that same design. GenCon 2010 didn't change the story for Wrath.

IIRC, PP was claiming that the fluff would adjust to reflect the results of various league play. Further one of the leagues determined the order of the Forces Of books.

In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of any big prizes given out except medals and trophies. Sure, a Cygnar win might give some of you faction pride, but I prefer seeing my gaming buddy take first and saying, "Hey! I know him! I regularly clobber his guys on our game night."

This is probably a good thing. I've never played in a professional tournament of any sort, but I suspect the more money, the more serious people get about things.

[leo_neil316]

IIRC, PP was claiming that the fluff would adjust to reflect the results of various league play. Further one of the leagues determined the order of the Forces Of books.

/sarcasm

Yeah we got suckered there huh? Stupid first book and it's much less broken theme forces!

[GunMageinTraining]

I wish we had been last... maybe then we'd have units like Satyxis or IFP or Kayazy, even if that would have been a massive change from our Field Test.

Tiers are secondary, though yea, majority of our tiers are likewise, bad.

I play for the competition. I like tight games and pulling victory from the jaws of defeat, but it requires a significant amount of additional effort to win with my Cygnar relative to my Legion. I will continue to play the Blues, as I still love em, but that doesn't stop me from wanting a little bit more on my side of the scale.

[Thamarite Merc]

Oomph, I did not read the whole thread, just answering to OP.

I don't think you understand correctly, why "purely positive" threads are "forced".

If I, for one, see a model, that fancies my taste, and want to decide, wether to buy it, will legitimately look for/open a threat and ask, wether it is competitive. I won't ask wether it is fun to play the model, as I don't know, what other posters conceive as fun and/or funny, and had bad experiences with that kind of advice before. I want an idea, how the model behaves in the game, not how yo lil sista behaved, when you smuggled it in her undies.

Now, if most of the people, who ever heard of the model/unit/faction, think bad about it, there is a relatively big chance, a lot of them did not even bother to field it. Furthermore, any discussions about tactics, synergies and cornercase gimmicks in the thread will be sorrowly dampened by concerned posters, who want to protect potential noobs from harnessing illusionary ideas about a model's value on the board.

Now, if I am still interested in the model/unit/faction, it is exactly those discussions I want ro read. So, off course, I look for/open a purely positive thread. I don't know, how that is "a tacit admission" of anything other, than that I am a Nerd.

I am not 100% sure, to which kind of threads your ire adresses to in the first paragraph, but if you just wanted to complain about people, who open threads, just to complain about, what other people write in other threads.. ya, i hear you.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

IIRC, PP was claiming that the fluff would adjust to reflect the results of various league play. Further one of the leagues determined the order of the Forces Of books.

I have yet to see the fluff adjusted because of wins in leagues. The Forces of Books was the only thing influenced by players and even then, I'm not sure I'd call the prize that useful.

I was thinking more along the lines of big wins deciding which of their faction's casters gets epic, name models, or helping design a new model. In general, tabletop miniatures games are not designed for that.

The lack of cash prizes also helps to prevent this too, which I'm thankful for.

[Sardonic Artery]

Hey, now, I wrote my "You Know What? I Actually Like Cygnar" thread before the doom (doesn't mean I don't intentionally bump it from time to time). I like Cygnar, but I know their limitations.

Can't say I see the dominance of Hordes, but that may be my meta. I run Trolls and found their flaws, too.

I agree on the tournament having little impact bit. I don't much care what happens at the competitive level because I'm just not that good of a player. I'd get stomped at that level. What I need is an army that I can win with about half the time in casual games and some of the time in local tournaments -- all while having fun. That's just me.

[MaSc]

[off topic]

[...]Originally when Hordes was released it was suppose to be an entire system not meant to be mixed in tournaments with Warmachine, and for some time I was really happy this was decided to be this way. Then due to demands an TO experimenting Warmahordes became popular which resulted in MK 2 and a lot of nerfing on our side. [...]

Actually Hordes was always promoted as fully compatible with Warmachine since the beginning. It was mentioned in NQ#2 and also on the back of the original Hordes Primal. (Play Hordes against Warmachine)

And a lot of nerfing on our side (Warmachine?) is only subjective. All 'Jacks were buffed with no more being disabled. And 'Jacks in general hit more accurate than beasts.
[/off topic]

[Calibre]

Calibre - I dont mean this too seriosuly but it just sounds like you need to learn to play, or maybe just find a good place to play? ... try vassal. If you are polite then vassal is quite a friendly environment. The best players tend to be very good too.



**** no that is not a word. Maybe you yanks have picked it up by accident but we stopped using it around about 1872

Does anyone know a guide to installing vassal, or where is the homepage, I want to install it and kick some @rses with he list I'm having trouble with (Few days and you won't find any Cygnar players on there anymore), the only link I could find on the web is; http://vassalwmh.co.cc/ but it looks like dead site "server not found". Who's up for a game to put their money where their mouth is?

[VagrantPoet]

All the guides to vassal are indeed bust. I've figured it out in a rudimentary fashion, and will someday do a guide but I'd need to be way more skilled first.

Depending on times your online though I can play you and show you how it all works if you'd like. Its the best way to learn anyway.