Venny + Bloodgorgers?

[beakerkd]

Well I am new to Cryx and I was thinking would Bloodgorgers+ Slaughterborn run any good with Venny?

I was thinking of casting Soul harvester on one then using a Sharlock to cast it on another or should I look at other units with him?

[blakeh1]

If going the Bloodgorgers route your probably better off going with his tier list. Soul Harvester works very nicely with Bloodgorgers and with his tier bonus you can get them and Gerlak Advanced Deploy. This gets them up field where you need them much quicker.

In addition, being medium base they can screen Venethrax. I usually comine a max unit of Bloodgrogers with a max or 2 min units of Black Ogrun.

The only thing I really miss in his tier list is the Withershadow Combine, but I consider the placement of clouds, a 1 point discount on Seethers and Advanced Deploy for Bloodgorgers a worthwhile trade off.

I have not really run his list much against Warmachine since I usually go with my other list when I can, but it is pretty solid against Hordes.

[Sanctjud]

My problem with the theme list is the lack of Saxon, terrain generation and full boards will anger you to no end with the theme list.

[FeignLife]

My problem with the theme list is the lack of Saxon, terrain generation and full boards will anger you to no end with the theme list.

You forgot the whole thing about Bloodgorgers being glorified paperweights. :/

[Warlordtheft]

I was thinking of casting Soul harvester on one then using a Sharlock to cast it on another or should I look at other units with him?

I used them in a a game against the skorne and shut down his Ancestral Guardians with that combo. It was a pretty lopsided battle due to a variety of factors. the Skorne swordsmen died in droves while the trollkin due to tough and the fact that I did not over commit them made for an effictive tarpit. The Skorne player posted a battle report on his blog:

http://plarzoid.com/2011/12/battle-r...nethrax-35pts/

[drachenfels]

ya know i was going to say that is an ok list... then i saw the corrupter and that flew out the window....

here's what i would run...

System: Warmachine
Faction: Cryx
Casters: 1/1
Points: 35/35
Lich Lord Venethrax (*6pts)
* Deathjack (12pts)
Skarlok Thrall (2pts)
Bile Thralls (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Bloodgorgers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
The Withershadow Combine (5pts)
Bloat Thrall (2pts)
General Gerlak Slaughterborn (3pts)
Necrotech & 1 Scrap Thrall (1pts)

so from top down this is a straight up tanking list.

Turn 1 venny puts up dragon slayer and starts walking.
biles and gorgers positioned across from the largest pockets of infantry
skarlock behind the gorgers putting harvest on them or the general when needed
DJ cus well... DUH? also needed a really heavy self supporting hitter, not meant to go after infantry but to go and smash up heavies (could possibly be swapped for nightmare and a siren)
necrotech follows DJ to heal any shooting from vital systems
combine stay relativly back and keep dragonslayer up for free and puppetmaster slaughterborn when he goes in for fun times.

game ends with Wyrmbane in opposing warcasters skull.

[Sanctjud]

You forgot the whole thing about Bloodgorgers being glorified paperweights. :/

I may be a gluttony for punishment with theme lists, but no list should die due to the set up of a board :-p

[Warlordtheft]

ya know i was going to say that is an ok list... then i saw the corrupter and that flew out the window....

Hey I think I used at least 1 of each of the corruptors shot types, so I can't see it being a bad choice. My reasoning was simple, I wanted a low cost ranged heavy, didn't want to have to run arc nodes (but had the capability if needed). Besides, the 2 hell divers were much more important (in what they engaged, killed and tied up) were more imoportant than have all my Eggs in one basket (the DJ). I like the DJ, but he has a big bulls eye on his chest, meaning my opponent will focus alot of attention on him. He is not as durable as the 2 hell divers, and 1 corruptor combined is.

[Sanctjud]

8 points is not cheap, while the comparison between durability is flawed.

[Bronze]

You just can't run Venthrax without Bloodgorgers imo.

[Warlordtheft]

8 points is not cheap, while the comparison between durability is flawed.

This is getting of the OT but:

Ok cheaper-to me a heavy at 8 is cheap compared to a 12 point jack. Geez, just because I find something that works if it isn't the DJ, MOAR BANEs, doesn't mean it is flawed. It is just different.

The damage track on the DJ is not that much different than the Corruptor, neither are its DEF stats (1 more armor and DEF IIRC). All the DJ has going for it is the fact it can repair with souls (never mind the hell divers which need to be targeted seperately, and have their own damage tracks). The downside to the DJ in terms of Defense is tactical flexibility. It is one piece, where as 3 other pieces can be in 3 different place accomplishing three different tasks. Granted the DJ can cast spells, but the corruptor gives you an Arcnode-not the same but a similar ability. Also the hell divers are great cause I can pick and choose my battles with them.

[Barrynstein]

You forgot the whole thing about Bloodgorgers being glorified paperweights. :/

Have to disagree. Finding Bloodgorgers wrecking quite a bit of face for me. Min unit of them and Gerlak were mvp's in my last game - bloodgorgers for effectively tar pitting a Khador heavy and preventing a trample to my caster (thanks to awesome tough rolls and Gerlak being close by for no knock down) and then Gerlak himself for killing off 3 Kayazy, then taking out 3 greylords by himself before finally petering out and only managing 3 damage against the opposing warcaster.

[Vash Axis]

This is what I ran at a recent Steam Roller. It was very effective with Gerlak and the GOrgers having AD. I was able to charge a unit my opponent ran on turn one. Gerlak ripped through 4 of the Fennblades before I had a low damage roll. The Gorgers then ran up and took out most of the unit in the next turn. I think having a Defiler as a secondary source of corrosion is invaluable. The Mechanithalls with Necrosurgeon are a great tie up unit/s as well.

Venethrax 35pt
Cryx
Tier 3: The Dragon Slayers
35+6 points, 33 models

Lich Lord Venethrax +6 points
* Defiler 5 points
* Scavenger 4 points
* Seether 8 points

10 Bloodgorgers 8 points
General Gerlak Slaughterborn 3 points
10 Mechanithralls 5 points
* 3 Brute Thralls 3 points
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls 2 points
Pistol Wraith 3 points

[Sanctjud]

This is getting of the OT but:

Ok cheaper-to me a heavy at 8 is cheap compared to a 12 point jack. Geez, just because I find something that works if it isn't the DJ, MOAR BANEs, doesn't mean it is flawed. It is just different.

The damage track on the DJ is not that much different than the Corruptor, neither are its DEF stats (1 more armor and DEF IIRC). All the DJ has going for it is the fact it can repair with souls (never mind the hell divers which need to be targeted seperately, and have their own damage tracks). The downside to the DJ in terms of Defense is tactical flexibility. It is one piece, where as 3 other pieces can be in 3 different place accomplishing three different tasks. Granted the DJ can cast spells, but the corruptor gives you an Arcnode-not the same but a similar ability. Also the hell divers are great cause I can pick and choose my battles with them.

It is because the items are different that your comparison is flawed, the durability between the DJ vs the corruptor and helldivers just can not be compared in a meaningful and objective way.

Simply, you are over valuing the tech the corruptor brings and under valuing the healing and extra stats of the DJ. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just suggesting there is different point of view.

Personally, I don't like dumping that many points into one model, but if you play your cards even remotely close to right, the DJ impresses beyond any expectation of what the corruptor and company can do. Certainly YMMV.

[Sanctjud]

Have to disagree. Finding Bloodgorgers wrecking quite a bit of face for me. Min unit of them and Gerlak were mvp's in my last game - bloodgorgers for effectively tar pitting a Khador heavy and preventing a trample to my caster (thanks to awesome tough rolls and Gerlak being close by for no knock down) and then Gerlak himself for killing off 3 Kayazy, then taking out 3 greylords by himself before finally petering out and only managing 3 damage against the opposing warcaster.

See, those awesome tough rolls skew the popularity of this unit. I agree that anti trample and relative self sufficiency are draws, but tough is a gamble, and when the dice are not nice the go down like Light Infantry. While using them in a screening duty is 50/50 a trap, because then you are relying on tough, which IMO is the hope based play (for better or for worse of course)

Note:sry double post.

[Barrynstein]

Awesome tough rolls aside, they still do pretty well and I know not to rely on tough. Still think it is silly that they are a one wound unit, but they hit hard, get two extra inches of charge on living models, have terror and two attacks. True it is hard to get them all in base to take advantage of gang and using them without Gerlak makes them less useful (getting to move an inch to hit something with your second attack after destroying something with your first and not being knocked down are key).
I learned that tough can't be relied on with the bane thralls though. 33% chance of not getting boxed is better than no percent and I think they make your enemy think twice about how to deal with them. They are slow and can get bogged down by terrain, I will admit- and certainly would not say they are top tier infantry - BUT they are certainly not the worst infantry option we have and calling them glorified paperweights is a bit harsh, I mean lets save that moniker for the Corrupter who truly deserves it (completely off tiopic - wishing I hadn't made a corruptor early on in my WM experience, and considering ripping off the arms and head off of it and making it into a reaper that I'd use instead).

[Sanctjud]

I own 6 Gorgers with Gerlick, I've never really been drawn to use them, but that's just me.
I think the few times I've used them, they have directly clashed with my play style and have caused me to lose.
They do not screen well and are just too slow, spd 5 vs. 6 is leagues different IMO.

SoSo with poor experiences (and maybe poor useage, cause I can't seem to find fault in usage when they run 10" and just die) I will second Feignlife's post.

[Ragged]

You forgot the whole thing about Bloodgorgers being glorified paperweights. :/

You're not doing it right.

[PianoDan]

Sorry to continue this OT discussion but I love 'gorgers with

pSkarre (you're taking Gerlak anyway and their 2x attacks make the most of her feat + DG)
pAsphyxious (Scything touch and medium bases)
Venethrax (Soul Harvester and medium bases)

I prefer them over other options with all of these casters. The downside is that you need to take saxon, but he's handy with these casters anyway.

[Syfer22]

You just can't run Venthrax without Bloodgorgers imo.

I've been running Venethrax with (you guessed it) Banes. Partly because I don't have a full unit of Bloodgorgers painted up, but also partly because Venethrax has no inherent debuffs, so he wants Dark Shroud. Personal preference, anyway.

[Sanctjud]

You just can't run Venthrax without Bloodgorgers imo.

You could be trolling, but I doubt it.
You could be joking, but you are lacking some smiley faces.
You could be truly honest, but utterly wrong. :-p

[Bronze]

You could be trolling, but I doubt it.
You could be joking, but you are lacking some smiley faces.
You could be truly honest, but utterly wrong. :-p

Oh no, not kidding at all. If you strongly see no value in using Bloodgorgers with Venethrax, then you really don't have enough experience with them to understand their potential. Of course, things could also be completely different in your local meta that could change things, such as typically having undead models or heavy jack lists reducing their charge ranges, very strong gun-line lists only...etc, etc.

But the Bloodgorgers are the best soul collecting unit that we have available and one of our strongest hitters without any outside help that can hit good defense on their own. The fact that they block line-of-sight and tramples to Venethrax is a bonus against some lists that can't be ignored when you might want to get to a heavy while keeping another off of you (fearful rarely coming into play but is there as well). And the topic is asking for opinions on the potential for using bloodgorgers with Venethrax. So if beakerkd finds their use based on what we mentioned useful or not, that's up to them, it wouldn't bother me if they found them useless, heh.

[BadEisenhorn]

Bloodgorgers are my go to heavy infatery. While my banes have been rusting in my bag for over half a year. They are just cheaper for what they do. 11 points with Gerlack, Banes come in at 15 with Tartarsauce. To me ther is no competition since both need either saxon or ghosthwalk to function. Trolls all day everyday... Unless i play eGoreshade then banes banes banes...

[beakerkd]

Thanks a lot everyone I can see that this question has split a lot of ppl on if its any good or not.

Thanks PianoDan I was going to ask if they were only "good" with one caster or not so thanks for that.

It looks like if they fit your play style you love them if not well .....yeah.......

[Sanctjud]

Of course, things could also be completely different in your local meta that could change things, such as typically having undead models or heavy jack lists reducing their charge ranges, very strong gun-line lists only...etc, etc.

I was kind of joking, hence the smiley face, but I was being pretty straight faced about you using "can't", the above quote answers why I called you out on it

But the Bloodgorgers are the best soul collecting unit that we have available and one of our strongest hitters without any outside help that can hit good defense on their own. The fact that they block line-of-sight and tramples to Venethrax is a bonus against some lists that can't be ignored when you might want to get to a heavy while keeping another off of you (fearful rarely coming into play but is there as well). And the topic is asking for opinions on the potential for using bloodgorgers with Venethrax. So if beakerkd finds their use based on what we mentioned useful or not, that's up to them, it wouldn't bother me if they found them useless, heh.

If I hadn't called you out, you would not have contributed so meaningfully to the thread Attacking my experience might be ok since I did call you out, but was is it so bad to ask for more information in a creative way (after all there was a smiley face to indicate it was a playful post) ?

Bloodgorgers are my go to heavy infatery. While my banes have been rusting in my bag for over half a year. They are just cheaper for what they do. 11 points with Gerlack, Banes come in at 15 with Tartarsauce. To me ther is no competition since both need either saxon or ghosthwalk to function. Trolls all day everyday... Unless i play eGoreshade then banes banes banes...

A. Heavy Infantry? I reserve that for multi-wound medium bases. 12/15 and tough I do not call heavy IMO.
B. If you think Banes auto include Tart, you are mistaken.
C. They both do different things, so there is little correlatation between the two, and it's a mystery why you would comment about the banes as if they are useless or lacking in comparison.

[Warlordtheft]

I think the best thing about the gorger's is that with Gerlak they don't fall down on the tough roll, and they have overtake with the 2 attcks + gang. The downside to this unit is that they are $ expensive, and the base weapon is only POW 11. On their own I find them less than optimal against Men-O-War, Bastions, other High arm units and Heavy Warjacks and beasts. On the othe other hand against all other infantry they are pretty good at decimating units.

[Sanctjud]

Again, tough is a fickle thing.
As Bronze said it's something of a bonus and not something to rely/think too much about.

[BadEisenhorn]

A. Heavy Infantry? I reserve that for multi-wound medium bases. 12/15 and tough I do not call heavy IMO.
B. If you think Banes auto include Tart, you are mistaken.
C. They both do different things, so there is little correlatation between the two, and it's a mystery why you would comment about the banes as if they are useless or lacking in comparison.

A. So for cryx that would be black ogruns. Which have the same def and arm but no though. I do agree that 8 boxes are better. So the trolls would be medium infateri.

B. When you are comparing them to the trolls the banes needs Tart to be even slightly on par.

Trolls on theier own have +2 charge range against living making theier threath range 10,5'. Gang which makes them effectivly mat 8 pow 13, Tough, 2x attacks that means on the charge against arm 18 they will do on average 6+2= 8 damage.
The trolls problems are: Terrain, low def and average arm.

Banes on theier own have stealth, Dark shroud making them pow 13, and weapon master which makes them hit arm 18 on the charge for 9 damage. With 8,5' threath range and mat 6
The banes problems are: Terrain, low def and average arm, low threath range, mat 6.

For me the trolls are just a better deal. If you take the whole bane circus it becomes better for the banes, but it costs more points. Yes ther are casters that can run banes without Tart: pDenny, eDenny, pSkarre, eSkarre, Scaverous. But that is only becuse they have a way of making the banes hit.

C. Above posters stating that they prefer banes. Banes are aslo the unit that trolls are most often compared to.

[Syfer22]

You're also forgetting Knights, who do not suffer as much from speed (due to Reach, which is worth its weight in gold) or terrain. Vengeance is also a nice Soul Harvesting tool.

[blakeh1]

On their own I find them less than optimal against Men-O-War, Bastions, other High arm units and Heavy Warjacks and beasts.

Actually I think they really on par with Banes in that respect. It's fairly easy to get the gang bonus with those models being on medium or large bases, at that point unassisted from outside help (Tartarus or a debuff spell) they are hitting at MAT 8 vs bane's MAT 6, and are doing a POW 13 hit, 2 times vs 1 hit POW 11 weapon master (or effective POW 13 for Bane Thralls). The think the real difference comes from being able to get possibly more banes knights (since they have small bases and reach) in melee with the target.

[Bronze]

If I hadn't called you out, you would not have contributed so meaningfully to the thread Attacking my experience might be ok since I did call you out, but was is it so bad to ask for more information in a creative way (after all there was a smiley face to indicate it was a playful post) ?

.

No fair enough, I follow.

[Kommissar Golovko]

You could be truly honest, but utterly wrong. :-p

I side with Bronze and Venny can run with Bloodgorgers very well. Can't run without is rather an over the top description but imho it's not too far off. This coming from over 40 games playing T4 lists with Venny at 35 and 50 point levels mostly. Then again, I usually bring, min or max depending on the pointage, 2 units of Bloodgorger to assist Venethrax and that is where I am coming from and where you maybe having difficulties. Minimum 13 to max 21 Advance Deploy Bloodgorgers do tend to mess up an opponents plan. I know terrain messes them up and so I make sure to take into account the terrain and plan to compensate for them. Time Venny's feat right and you can protect your Bloodgorgers and Venny by sacrificing a few in front.

[Sanctjud]

I side with Bronze and Venny can run with Bloodgorgers very well. Can't run without is rather an over the top description but imho it's not too far off. This coming from over 40 games playing T4 lists with Venny at 35 and 50 point levels mostly. Then again, I usually bring, min or max depending on the pointage, 2 units of Bloodgorger to assist Venethrax and that is where I am coming from and where you maybe having difficulties. Minimum 13 to max 21 Advance Deploy Bloodgorgers do tend to mess up an opponents plan. I know terrain messes them up and so I make sure to take into account the terrain and plan to compensate for them. Time Venny's feat right and you can protect your Bloodgorgers and Venny by sacrificing a few in front.

Just joking, but I find it funny to say this, if you are going T4 Venny, then you really 'can't' run without Gorgers cause your only option after that is Ogrun... XD
Now, I do not have 40 ish games with tier 4, but I have had 4 games at 35 points at Tier 4.
50/50 win/loss. Loss vs. eKrueger/eDeoomy, win vs. Grissel/eNemo.
Gorgers were beyond disappointing v. eDoomy, eKrueger, and Grissel.
vs. eDoomy, they get no damage buff from Venny besides gang. They were trample proof, but just died to Fenns, lack of reach and lack of toughs was sad.
vs. eKrueger, they never made it into combat, and lack of pathfinder in the theme list is stupid.
vs. Grissel, they got out numbered and due to the opponent to do waves of fenns, the Gorgers just don't have meaningful output.

The only game they really shine was vs. eNemo, where they killed a bunch of sword knights....only because they were presented to me to kill. Tough was poor in this game as well, but out of all of these games, their only use is sucking up bullets...sadly it's usually not tough enough to suck up more...but...that's not really what I look for in a unit.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Just joking, but I find it funny to say this, if you are going T4 Venny, then you really 'can't' run without Gorgers cause your only option after that is Ogrun... XD

Yeah but having had games as well without the Bloodgorgers, I just find they are quite useful. Venny likes to get up close and the Gorgers help him to get close. The T4 lists are better since they give Bloodgorgers AD which helps alleviate their problem with terrain. I find it's also better if you bring 2 units or max 1 unit if your going to run them as 6 will not be performing up to par as you found out. Those Fenn Blades? I've encountered those as well and my Bloodgorgers came out much better since I was almost at par with them having a max unit or 2 units. Again, ymmv but don't go knocking them.