Stormwall speculation in context

[Lanz]

So, while we obviously don't know what any colossal actually does, we have hints and suggestions and some actual stats (galleon's boxes) to work with.

We know they get focus, we know they function mostly like warjacks.

While there are certain things we don't know (like the nature of superstructure weapons and the real PS on the fists) we can sorta fill in a lot of the gaps.

So why am I here on the Cygnar forum talking about Stormwall instead of the other 3 Warmachine factions I play?

Well, first, because I feel it's the easiest to get a good impression of, second because I'm probably starting Cygnar next.

So, the idea is like this; some things we know about colossals, some things we can only guess. However, a lot of things we don't know for certain, but we have a pretty good idea what they could be. For example, the Stormwall has a pair of chainguns. Whether those are normal chainguns or the heavier Metal Storm guns, we can generally lay odds that it's probably one of the two. There isn't much reason for it to be any more powerful or less powerful than either of those two. So it's a safe bet that's what they are.

Also, I wanted to bring up a point of 'value' about the weapons. It's not so much a matter of predicting -exactly- what the Stormwall does, so much as predicting what -sort- of things it does, to get a snapshot of what it's probably like. For example, the large cannons on its shoulders. Those could be Heavy Barrels. Maybe, maybe not. But odds are, given the rest of the armament, it's probably the sort of weapon you could slap on an ironclad chassis and call it a 9 point 'jack. So heavy barrel or no, it's probably about the same -value- as a heavy barrel. So for speculation purposes it may as well be a heavy barrel. Maybe the actual guns will be Heavy Barrels with -2 range but AoE 3 or something (so what a Ravagore fires). Still just as good.

So anyways, here's the Stormwall (speculation version)

Stormwall
SPD 5
STR 15
MAT 7
RAT 6
DEF 11
ARM 19
Damage Grid (same as Galleon)
Cost 19

Rules
Colossal - (Basically says it's a warjack in all regards, except because it's a colossal it has the special damage grid, L/R arcs, new power attacks, etc, etc. Same as lights and heavies are different classifications but are still warjacks. Can be allocated 5 focus. Has all the same relevant rules battle engines, have; Huge Base, Pre-deployment, Massive, etc, etc.

Has Weapon Platform, Gunfighter, and Virtuoso. Or some unique rule that combines all three similar to how the Behemoth works.

Weapons
Big Knuckle x2 PS18
Open Fist
Special rule where it can only attack in its relevant arc.

Heavy Barrel x2 - Same as a Defender, but can also only fire in its own arc.

Metal Storm/Chaingun x2 - This could be either-or, really. Is not restricted to arc and can fire anywhere in the front arc.

Thingie launcher - Given that in the video they show this while talking about the colossal superstructures, I'd imagine this is a weapon and is linked to the storm chambers on its back(as the stormwall also has smokestacks, suggesting it's either not running on electricity at all, or it's some kind of hybrid). What it does? No idea, so I'm going to ignore it. It's a wildcard for this experiment.

And here's some reasoning behind the details.

The stats - I see no reason why they'd differ much from a conventional warjack outside of strength. I figured a compromise between the armor of the centurion chassis and the stats of the normal ironclad chassis fit well. Or more accurately, I figured the colossals would be the stats of their faction's prime heavy, just with -1 defense and +1 armor and a lot more strength.

The damage grid - if you look at a Freebooter right now and compare it to an Ironclad, one thing might stand out; they have the exact same damage grid. Chances are that the Stormwall won't be too far off from the Galleon.

The points - we know 18-20. Given Cygnar's warjack range, I'm expecting that it would not be the cheapest, nor would it be the most expensive. So obviously in a 3point range of 18-20, that places it at 19.

the Chainguns - The nature of the weapon suggests that it's a point-defense weapon, like what ships use against smaller targets, which would imply that the Chaingun (being 2d6 shots) would be more valuable. However, they look pretty big, so maybe they're Metal Storms, though having dual covering fire would be a bit bonkers, but I'll get to that later.

the heavy barrels - Again, I don't think this is too far off the mark from how they look. If they aren't heavy barrels, then they're probably something close to heavy barrels or comparable in value to a heavy barrel overall. In other words, I would imagine the stats would be far closer to the defender's heavy barrel then to, say, the avenger's seismic cannon. Also, it seems to have AoE at least partially covered in the chainguns, so I'd imagine those big shoulder cannons are the Stormwall's ranged 'business end', which also fits the heavy barrel.

PS 18 fists - Look at the NQ thread to see a Stormwall turning a cryxan warjack into an oily smear with it's 'jack-sized fist. It's safe to say that while they probably aren't totally crazy, they probably are well within heavy-'jack-smashing PS range. 18-19 is my guess, 18 seems more likely specifically in Cygnar's case. Maybe 19 for the Judicator and Conquest. Probably 17 for the Galleon and Hyperion.

having all the battle engine rules - when you look at them, most of these rules aren't necessicarily something that's innate to a battle engine so much as innate to something really really big. So for the most part, I don't see much logic behind many of these rules being on battle engines, but not having a reason to be on a colossal. The exception to this is the knock-down immunity. I can understand it being a bit odd to knock over a tank (much less stand one up again), but it seems logical that colossals can fall over just like a warjack.

Counting as a warjack - I know some people bring up points like how broken it'd be to fully-repair it on Darius's feat, etc, etc. But realistically, a single colossal is still fewer hit boxes than two individual warjacks for the same cost. The overall number of boxes coming back isn't too radical. Not game breaking anyways. Not enough to justify special counter-synergy rules. Some feats and stuff might be errata'd, but I don't think the restrictions will be on the colossal-side of things.

Virtuoso/gunfighter thing - Look at the Judicator picture. Blasting away missiles and crushing something in a fist. Look at the Kraken. Flailing its tentacles around while firing away it's laser-gun-thing. Most of all, look at that NQ picture I mentioned where the stormwall is crushing a cryx 'jack. What else is it doing? Firing every. single. gun. it has. Three pictures show colossals firing and fighting, so either PP is taking artistic liberties that they haven't before, or the colossals can actually do all that. Naturally since its depicted fighting in melee while shooting, Weapon Platform makes sense too.

5 Focus - This is baseless, really. Not so much that it'll have a higher focus stat so much as the exact number 5. I think that with the sheer quantity of shots it can make, 3 focus will never be enough. It just doesn't strike me as logical for something that big. Why 5? Because it's high enough to make a difference, but still less than 2 individual heavies.


So bringing this all together... Part of the reason I did this was to lay down some reasonable (in my opinion) ideas of what we'll be looking at for the overall power of a colossal. I also feel that these sorts of stats/abilities/weapons are what most people are probably expecting at a bare minimum. Why put it together? To compare it to normal warjacks, obviously.

Specifically; Let's assume that the chainguns are normal chainguns. If you wanted that sort of firepower in the current arsenal, that'd be 2 Sentinels, and 2 defenders. That's 26 points. So assuming the Stormwall is 19 (heck we can even assume it's 20), it's already doing the offensive job of all those 'jacks together, and still has that storm-thingie on top of that, as well as some scary melee power, and the ability to fire while engaged. So basically it's better. 100% better in pretty much every regard except for spreading out the firepower. However, on the defensive side, it's got about half the overall boxes of 2 sentinels and 2 defenders, as well as the sentinels and defenders having some unique rules like shield guard and the cortex hammer. But at a 6+ point difference, the Stormwall's offensive profile is still absolutely staggering.

If those chainguns are Metal Storms, then the comparison is even more slanted in the Stormwall's favor.

So next point of interest; assuming it's got something like a pair of heavy barrels, is there ever any justification to take a defender again except when you just can't afford the colossal? I know I wouldn't. I'll take the battleship over the patrol boat, thanks.

So now having brought up some points, I want to know what others think. Do you think this is an accurate snapshot of what the stormwall might be like? Does that seem crazy powerful, or putting too many eggs in one basket? If it really does turn out to be like that, will it render a bunch of 'jacks totally obsolete except where point constraints are concerned?

A final point; Again, these obviously aren't accurate and I doubt this is exactly what the Stormwall will look like. But at this point I hope I've made the impression that even if some of this stuff is slightly worse, even if the stormwall is anywhere close to this, this colossal far and away outclasses anything you could possibly do with normal warjacks for the same cost range. But for the points it's far easier to remove than 20 points of heavy warjacks. Seem like a fair trade?

[Crate123]

Regarding Darius feat, yes it doesnt have more boxes than 2 full warjacks BUT 1 warjack is much easier to scrap in 1 round than a colossal is and arcane shield on the colossal is much better than on one of the warjacks.
I have said since day one that it will have rules that prevent it from benefitting fully from a lot of buffs and debuffs as well, I dont think it can get SPD buffed or debuffed or fully disrupted.
I generally agree with your statline and your weapons although I think the 2 big guns are going to be slightly worse than the defenders guns (something like range 14, pow 14. maybe aoe 3).

[Eagle dan 4]

i have heard rumors that the 2 new power attacks are as follows

slaming without charging, i.e being able to use a slam power attack whilst in combat using its fists

a sweeping thresher attack at a 90 degree arc (one for each arm) i think thats how they said it anyway,

could be wrong, just the latest i had heard.

[jr caster]

probably has immovable object

[Daishi]

I was always thinking that the sheer size of these would require extra strain on casters, so maybe something like they must be allocated at least one focus a turn?

[phreaker187]

I'm going with "can trample over med bases." I mean c'mon it's huge!

[TheIronclad]

The outline of the above stats seems reasonable. There are so many unknowns that it will be hard to tell until it is released. Something I find interesting is how the Stormwall's fists have details vaguely similiar to electomagnets and the centurions shield. The wild guess I would make concerning the Stormwall is maybe it has polarity shield as an action or something similiar to Epic Nemo's magnetic debuff on his staff. Either of those effects would be pretty amazing.

[FearLord]

I'm going with "can trample over med bases." I mean c'mon it's huge!

This was asked at the Templecon panel and answered that they would not be able to trample medium bases...

As for the speculation... I can see a fair amount of this being true, but so much is down to exact wordings in this game that even small changes could make a big difference to how these things play... I'm excited though - don't know how I'll wait to find out what these do...

[Ysthrall]

Hmm, I think an option of Polarity Field on each fist is pretty good. Especially as it would only apply to that arc.

Maybe if you use polarity field on one fist, you can't use it on the other? Or fire the Storm thingy? Means that it can still truck up field, Polarity field on, shooting the shoulder guns. But it does mean that a pair of Slayers, say, constitutes a threat to it, as it can't field both at once if they two-team it... which seems sensible....

I'm seeing jacks fighting collossals similar to hard-hitting infantry fighting jacks...

We've been kinda spoiled re attack arcs with our 360 vision Storm Strider, so learning these will be fun

[cannonball]

Some fair observations and a good read. Thanks Lanz.

[sleet01]

Weapons Platform obviates the need for Gunfighter or Virtuoso. And, as PP have assiduously kept either rule out of our hands so far, except for a handful of Gun Mages, I see no reason why they'd put them on our Colossal.

[watchgeorgerock]

i just want true sight

[Lanz]

Weapons Platform obviates the need for Gunfighter or Virtuoso. And, as PP have assiduously kept either rule out of our hands so far, except for a handful of Gun Mages, I see no reason why they'd put them on our Colossal.

Well pp has depicted it fighting in melee while firing and they rarely(never as far as I know) misdirect with artwork just to make a model look cool. Generally what you see a model do I'm the artwork is a reflection of its rules.

[Bladestorm]

The things on the fists do remind me of the centurions shield. The odd thing about them though is that there is a third one on the top of the hull, which wouldn't serve much purpose if they were polarity shields.

So some sort of field generator seems like a given, but I'm a little puzzled as to what.

[watchgeorgerock]

Well pp has depicted it fighting in melee while firing and they rarely(never as far as I know) misdirect with artwork just to make a model look cool. Generally what you see a model do I'm the artwork is a reflection of its rules.

Have you seen the Darius artwork

[sleet01]

Well pp has depicted it fighting in melee while firing and they rarely(never as far as I know) misdirect with artwork just to make a model look cool. Generally what you see a model do I'm the artwork is a reflection of its rules.

Yes... Weapons Platform is the Battle Engine rule that lets some BEs fight in melee while firing all their ranged weapons. We got Gunfighter on the Storm Strider because it has no melee weapons to begin with, but I'm sure PP will find Weapons Platform perfectly satisfactory for Stormwall.

Have you seen the Darius artwork

No kidding.

[Griffin839]

I wonder if it will count as a warjack. A giant base that grants flank or positive charge would be wonderful.

[SpectralTime]

Have you seen the Darius artwork

No kidding.

Hey now. The D-man's feating whilst firing his Steam Cannon. Also, he COULD repair wreck markers in MKI, and while they took that ability out, it DID use to be a thing he could do when that expensive artwork was made.

[knight_actual]

If it counts as a jack as advertised, all of our jack casters would have just gotten a huge boost. Positive charged/full throttled/ horse powered thresher = alot of dead models. Jack hammering one of those fists is alot longer threat range. Think of guided fire with all those guns.

Heck, even just the standard arcane shield will make this thing beastley.

[SpectralTime]

If it counts as a jack as advertised, all of our jack casters would have just gotten a huge boost. Positive charged/full throttled/ horse powered thresher = alot of dead models. Jack hammering one of those fists is alot longer threat range. Think of guided fire with all those guns.

Heck, even just the standard arcane shield will make this thing beastley.

To be fair, Karchev's probably drooling at the thought of Towing that sucker before boosting it up with Unearthly Rage.

[Lanz]

True, I'd forgotten about Darius. Can't use his crane and shoot at the same time, as far as I'm aware. Anyways, my point still stands that most of the time when they show models doing something, it's pretty close to what they can do, and there's more than just the stormwall picture showing colossals shooting and making melee attacks at the same time.

To be fair, Karchev's probably drooling at the thought of Towing that sucker before boosting it up with Unearthly Rage.

They've already said he can't, and if I'm not mistaken, they've said that Colossals won't be able to move outside of their activations. So no energizer/locomotion/witch hound/etc.

[Calibre]

I have to disagree with the stats listed above:
1) STR 15 sounds reasonable, but pow 18's not. The Thunderhead head's base pow of his fist are 5 as beating stick, the cyclones's is pow 3 but also support the chainguns. I believe the the Stormwalls more of shooty jack so it will probably arc lightning through them so I'm betting pow higher than the cyclone cause its is a colossal after all, So I'll put my money on pow 4 for pow 19 fists.
2) Also I think ARM 19 seems a little low, I would suspect that both his fists has at least a buckler or a shield system that adds up to ARM 21 - ARM 23. If you take into account that Khador and Skorne versions will be very much melee specialized we will need all the armor we can get

[Lanz]

They're -all- shooting 'jacks.

As for the armor, I don't think it will be that high, because however high it will be, the Judicator and Conquest will be higher, and with in-faction effects, having a base armor much higher than the 20 range for a colossal would be... crazy. Even normal heavies become hard to take down at that range without dedicated damage buffs and high-profile beatsticks. Tack 50+ boxes onto that and there's no way they could be killed by a normal list like PP is saying they can.

Maybe you're right, but I think 19 is still more likely. 19 or 20. The boxes will be where the endurance comes from.

[leo_neil316]

Please, there is no way in hell we're getting an immovable 50+ box model with ARM better than 18.

Which has reach on almostcertianlygood melee weapons and a 5" base.

I mean even with ARM 18 pStryker is gonna start going 'okay I shove an invincible stormwall in your face. It gets arcane shield and as much focus as I can allocate.

And there is no way in hell you're killing it and it's got the offence to take your faces off in the two turns it's getting.

[jr caster]

Please, there is no way in hell we're getting an immovable 50+ box model with ARM better than 18.

Which has reach on almostcertianlygood melee weapons and a 5" base.

I mean even with ARM 18 pStryker is gonna start going 'okay I shove an invincible stormwall in your face. It gets arcane shield and as much focus as I can allocate.

And there is no way in hell you're killing it and it's got the offence to take your faces off in the two turns it's getting.

well it is 18-20 points so i would like it to be as strong as 3 warjacks.

[Calibre]

Please, there is no way in hell we're getting an immovable 50+ box model with ARM better than 18.

Which has reach on almostcertianlygood melee weapons and a 5" base.

I mean even with ARM 18 pStryker is gonna start going 'okay I shove an invincible stormwall in your face. It gets arcane shield and as much focus as I can allocate.

And there is no way in hell you're killing it and it's got the offence to take your faces off in the two turns it's getting.

We already have ARM 21 base jacks, Khador maxes around 24 and even Legion can get the Carnivian into those kind of levels. We saw ARM 20 on Battle Engines and I've seen the Storm strider go down with ease form 4 Ravagore shots, so why is it so difficult to imagine them with a "decent" value of armor (getting less than battle engine wouldn't make any sense), they are collosals after all. And if your argument is "yea but what of AS", there is a lot of models that can remove buffs and in today's tournament lists they are as common as grass. Yes pStryker makes it scary but that's what he should do he's not running around with big mo'fo blade like his epic version, he takes normal jacks and cavalry and boosts them into scary levels, and most of the opponents are anyway going to laugh at you "Oh you got a speed 4/5 jack on ARM 22 or 23 coming for me, let me just move here along the side... okay now say bye bye to your caster, next time try and put AS on yourself" If AS or Blur was to make our Stormwall unbalanced, I say bring it on...I would love to see pStryker start featuring and played aggressively in tournaments again. I hate it when people start to whine because suddenly the epic version of casters are now seemingly at a disadvantage in regard to their epic version. I'm all for providing the non-epic versions of casters some more playability, they are there, they are suppose to be competitive.