Careers (2/20/2012 Insider)

[Psychomancer]

So instead of leveling up, can you take new careers beyond the initial two at character creation?

Because I already have an Arcane Mek/Mercenary/Mechanist/Ironhead/Warcaster. Will it be possible to replicate this setup?

[Siranaul]

I doubt you'd get more careers. You'd probably get skill points and your choice of a list of abilities. That the extra careers wouldn't be possible. I just doubt it.

[PG_Zeber]

Really excited about this.
Sometimes even being a press ganger is not enough info on stuff (as in I want this RPG released to weeks ago).


EDIT : removed picture, not in the spirit of things really

[Whimper]

So instead of leveling up, can you take new careers beyond the initial two at character creation?

Because I already have an Arcane Mek/Mercenary/Mechanist/Ironhead/Warcaster. Will it be possible to replicate this setup?

My guess?

Archetype: Gifted
Career 1: Arcane Mechanik
Career 2: Warcaster

The Mechanist stuff will come from choices you make within the Arcane Mechanik Career. The Ironhead stuff will either have to come from the AmK Career as well, or from the Warcaster career. But even in D20, your character seems to be spreading himself a little thin, doesn't he?

[Creaux]

I'm more interested in the Fell Caller/Aristocrat professions.

"On the eve of my appointment as mayor of Fahrin, I wish to greet all of my guests with a resounding HEY GUYS WELCOME TO MY PARTAAAAYYY!!!"

[lifelesspoet]

the mat + 2d6 vs def in warmachine is too simple to me if thats all it is. you have to cap mat to balance it out. Perhaps this career gives +2 mat and this one gives +3 and you can take this one special ability for +1 and you are stuck with mat 6 forever. I don't think 2d6 on its own is veritable enough for an rpg with custom characters on its own. Manuevers, buffs and boosting is required to avoid meta gaming and dependence on probability. Its the key that makes an awesome wargame like warmahordes and but doesn't allow for one shot kills in games like mechwarrior.
Character creation and customizability matter a lot too. D20 is an example of a decent dice roll being broken by poor character class balance and skill stacking. Mutants and masterminds takes the same mechanic and redoes the character creation and ends with more customized character and more balanced games.
I like many systems, but the key is fitting the setting to the dice. Thats a very hard goal to achieve. Savage worlds i think is great for pulp stories, film noir and campy brawling shoot em ups but not something i'd use for a well detailed character driven game. It's too light in character creation to make niche characters. 4e dnd plays like a board game, its fun it you aren't in the mood for much roleplaying. The system is as much of the setting as the maps, the classes and the monsters. The fiction fills your imagination but the dice give a certain feeling to your actions.
I would love to play the game though, when it comes out. There aren't a lot of games that are rule light and character heavy, but allow you to go all out when you really need to succeed. Thats the game i see coming and hopefully thats close to what i'll get.

[captainspud]

I think it's important for players to be able to read fluff (but not plot hooks). Even if it's about an area they aren't adventuring in. It gives the player a better feel for the world. The character grew up in the world, so would have more knowledge and sense of what's going on/what could happen than a player who knew little of the setting. The players should use this information to help play their character, help react to or anticipate how dealings with NPCs might go, but shouldn't use specific knowledge their character wouldn't know.

A character that grew up in Merin should know about Merin. Maybe Berck if they trade locally, and MAYBE the next nearest town after that if their family business had a wide territory. But that's about it-- there's no Wikipedia in a fantasy world. Characters only know about places they've visited, and even then, they only know about the parts of those places they've experienced. A player who visted Korsk six times to sell cabbages there doesn't know about the centuries-old feud between the Onopko and Lebedyev noble houses there.

So, yeah. Unless a player is actively playing a seasoned adventurer and explorer, a diplomat, or a scholar, their character's knowledge should be minimal and cursory. Almost nothing of what would be written in a setting book would be known to an average citizen of the world.

[Psychomancer]

My guess?

Archetype: Gifted
Career 1: Arcane Mechanik
Career 2: Warcaster

I'm inclined to think this as well, at least for starters. But it just seems to me that in a game system without levels, getting more careers would be a good metric for measuring a character's overall experience level. I mean, like the blog said, Napoleon started out as a minor Aristo, became an Army Officer, went back to being an Aristocrat, and ended up as a pig farmer. I myself have had a lot of varied jobs in my time- I once helped with the project to bring Internet access to the Navajo Nation. I was one of the first people to make a Reservation online.

The Mechanist stuff will come from choices you make within the Arcane Mechanik Career. The Ironhead stuff will either have to come from the AmK Career as well, or from the Warcaster career.

This could go either way, really. You could argue that being an Ironhead is a specialization of being a Mek, or it might be a specialized enough thing to warrant its own career path. Wait and see, I guess

But even in D20, your character seems to be spreading himself a little thin, doesn't he?

I have often thought that as well, but at the risk of sounding arrogant or inflated, my character's wide range of skills and abilities have made him the heart of the party and de facto leader. I may never get to make a Mechanikal Innovation, true. But my character rocks across the nations of Immoren as a one-man mercenary company, empowered by his mighty steam armor, and accompanied by his pack of attack servitors.
I don't really regret it.

[jdripley]

My major problem with just adding careers is that over time it would mar their "this is a system where there are so many possible combinations for the express purpose of giving you the ability to make unique characters!" If there are 25 careers in the base book, and you get 2 to begin with, and realistically perhaps 10 really appeal to you specifically, over time you'll gain those 10. Then maybe you start another campaign, and say "I'm going to play a DIFFERENT type of character, so you pick two different starting careers. And over time, you fill in with those same 10 because those are the ones you think are good. And.... same character.

I think progression will be based on raw stat increases and abilities that can be chosen for the careers you've taken at character creation.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I don't think anyone will "gain" professions.

My /guess/ given what we've heard already is that there will likely be a significant list of skills/feats. Some of those skills/feats will require a specific race/archtype/career, most will not. But, each career will have a list of discounted skills. Skills that you can get easier/cheaper.

For instance, if there is a "mechanics" skill, anyone could learn it, anyone could become a master in it. You could have a Gifted-Mage/Theif that also happens to be a master mechanic. But it will take a lot more experience points for a Mage/Theif to max out the mechanics skill than it would take a Arcane Mechanic/Knight.

-Rick

[jdripley]

I think it will be super cool to come up with neat combinations of archetypes and careers. I can't wait to get my hands on the full lists!!

[Weaselcreature]

So, yeah. Unless a player is actively playing a seasoned adventurer and explorer, a diplomat, or a scholar, their character's knowledge should be minimal and cursory. Almost nothing of what would be written in a setting book would be known to an average citizen of the world.

I agree there...there character knowledge would be limited, but if a player only reads the sourcebook for Merin, then he won't have a feel for the world like the character would. The character would still get news and rumors from throughout the IK, and there's plenty of travel in the IK with folks/adventurers coming in from other areas.

I don't think the player of a Cygnaran needs to know the statistical data of Khador cities and who is Mayor of which town, but the player should still read the general Khador fluff to help give a feel for the world. A good player will use this knowledge to help his character act in a world the player wasn't raised in, but won't abuse the knowledge; and a good DM will call a player out for trying to use info the character may not know.

[captainspud]

I agree there...there character knowledge would be limited, but if a player only reads the sourcebook for Merin, then he won't have a feel for the world like the character would. The character would still get news and rumors from throughout the IK, and there's plenty of travel in the IK with folks/adventurers coming in from other areas.

I don't think the player of a Cygnaran needs to know the statistical data of Khador cities and who is Mayor of which town, but the player should still read the general Khador fluff to help give a feel for the world. A good player will use this knowledge to help his character act in a world the player wasn't raised in, but won't abuse the knowledge; and a good DM will call a player out for trying to use info the character may not know.

I agree in principle, but in practice I don't find it bears out-- players don't responsibly read the summaries and skip the details. They binge. They start at "K for Khador" and don't stop until the end of the chapter. Even trying to break it out into chapters just to stop that binging from damaging the campaign is usually wasted effort; it may stop them from reading it right away, but give it a few months and every player at the table will have gotten bored and read the "DMS ONLY SUPER JUICY WORLD DETAILS" section at some point.

That's why I like a razor-sharp delineation of "DM book" and "player book", with no overlap between the two. The ONLY way to stop players from reading the intricate details of the Cult of Cyriss' secret rituals is to make sure they aren't mentioned in a book that a player would have a reason to buy.

And yes, I know that this method has its own huge problems; DM-aimed books simply don't sell very well, because only one person at the table needs to buy them, which is exactly WHY companies have started mixing the two types of content together in the same books. I know that, and I don't even have a credible counter-argument for it. Of course PP needs to sell as many copies of the books as possible, and of course that means they need to put player info in all the books.

It just sucks, is all. A lot.

[Weaselcreature]

Yeah...what you said there is right on, but I guess I'm just blind in my willingness to give players the benefit of the doubt, ignore human nature, and let them police themselves, while you've been jaded and turned into a cynic.

[HerrDeux]

Well, as PP did with the Five Fingers Port of Deceit book, they kept some chapters as GM-Only. It's a fine example of how a campaign source book can meet the needs of PP's business model, players and GM alike, without compromising the GM's control of information distribution.

Hopefully they will use a similar design strategy with the books subsequent to the forthcoming "player's guide".

[Weaselcreature]

While that is the best way to do it (from an overall (and understandable) business standpoint), as CaptPotato mentioned, players are more likely to have the book than a GM only book, and that increases the likelihood of peeking into the GM area, so there will be more compromise of information.

But, you do what you gotta do with what you have.

[Kriegtanzer]

I would rather have all the players in the game I am playing have a good understanding of the world even if it is well beyond what the character would have.

As a GM a, "how does your character know that?" Often sets them back on course. But I play with mature gamers that will ask, "Does my character know about ...?"

[John of Arc]

I'd rather have my players know everything they can as well. I play with a 5 or 6 people, and maybe half of them know anything about the IK. I'm also the only one that knows the fluff beyond the wargame. If all the information is there in front of them, maybe they'll actually absorb some of it.

[The Happy Anarchist]

@Captainspud - Do you play games with players that have played the game before? Or do you play multiple campaigns with new characters?

Players are going to get info their characters don't know all over the place. Reading forums, chatting with people about the game, previous games they have played.

I can see for some games the sense of mystery or discovery is important, but I don't really think the IK game is one - or at least not with the basic facts of the setting.

[Psychomancer]

I think there's a certain level of reasonable detail that most people can be assumed to know about places. I mean, I've never been to New York City, but I know a lot about it from books and movies and TV. Naturally in the IK, new doesn't travel as fast or in such detail as it does in our world today. For instance, it may be common knowledge that the city of Midfast is in the Kingdom of Ord, is near the border with Khador, and is where Ascendant Markus lived. Most people probably don't know that the Order of the Golden Crucible is reforming in that city- mostly people with an interest, like say, alchemists would know that. Even fewer people would know that walking around town with more than a brace of pistols will get you stopped by the watch in Midfast. And an even smaller percentage of people would know what the shield hanging behind the bar at the Bolt & Blade Tavern represents, or why it is currently covered with a cloth. You may be able to find someone in Caspia who knows all this, but even then, there's things that only locals will know about their city.

[Defenstrator]

In general I favor people knowing things over not knowing them. While annoying that you can't "surprise" players, it's generally better than trying to explain things they are ignorant about. The more knowledge they have the more likely your players will buy into your world. I've had a few campaigns disolve becuase I was the only one that really knew the game world, so the players were never at ease and so never quite sure how to interact. Or they would ignorantly do something that would get them in trouble/ killed.

Also, the more home brew adventures you do, the less likely they are to know your secrets.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Also, the more home brew adventures you do, the less likely they are to know your secrets.

Quoted for truth Also, with home brew stuff, you have a lot less issues with ret-conning stuff as more IK/WM/H fluff is released.

-Rick

[Psychomancer]

Hee hee hee...very much chip truth, Def!

[Yronhand]

I'm thinking that maybe in the future, they'll release cheap pdf-only, DM/GM/ST/whatever-only books.

It'd be nice if the IKRPG community could develop into a larger one, attracting steampunk RP enthusiasts in general. XD

[Sosthenes]

I do hope we stay with "full metal fantasy" and don't all out go for the pseudo-Victorian hipster style of steampunk, though

[commissarmoody]

I am pretty sure that we will not be let down, and "steam Fantasy" will be the rule of the day.

[CaffeineBoy]

I'm totally OK with the idea of combining GM and player info in the books, *especially* if it sells more copies to more people and makes PP more money. I want the IKRPG line to succeed and I want a larger pool of players out there engaged in the vast coolness of Western Immoren. I'm even OK if my players read said GM info -- it shows they're diggin' the setting. I play with mature players (mostly) who like to understand why stuff is happening to their characters, even if their characters don't understand. It's more fun when everybody's on the same page and I generally don't try to surprise my players with setting info. I don't mind the occasional reveal, but I'm a believer in the shared narrative. I retired my viking hat a long time ago.

[StJason]

I think there's a certain level of reasonable detail that most people can be assumed to know about places. I mean, I've never been to New York City, but I know a lot about it from books and movies and TV.

*drums fingers waiting for 'mancer to get why this is a issue*

You must remember that this is a psuedo-industrial society. In Cygnar, it's a feudal system. In the other kingdoms, it's worse. In short, the average farmer from King's Vine hasn't been more then five miles from his home. He might get occasional updates from the rail workers or the couriers that come through, but Cyril is an exotic, distant place. Korsk is an unknowable distant threat. Blackwater might as well be on the moon. And someplace truely exotic like Zu? You know those exo-planets they keep finding?

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

And clearly every single character must start out as a back-water farmer.

-Rick

[Sosthenes]

And clearly every single character must start out as a back-water farmer.

But I was going to Ironhead station to pick up some stormchamber converters!

And actually, I'd say that at least in Cygnar, the farmers are a bit better informed than their medieval European counterparts. We're technologically a bit beyond that, information flows, there's train, steamboats and other rather rapid modes of transporation, there's broadsheets and at least a few people able to read them (can't remember if there's a mail service)...

On the other hand, I always picture the Iron Kingdoms as a bit more squeezed together. The wilderness is still rather dominant, terrible creatures abound, and, well, war. So I tend to think of it as a few quite large citiies with lots of satellite farming and mining villages and towns, all rather fortified. Not exactly pastoral England.

[Kriegtanzer]

StJAson - In short, the average farmer from King's Vine hasn't been more then five miles from his home. He might get occasional updates from the rail workers or the couriers that come through, but Cyril is an exotic, distant place. Korsk is an unknowable distant threat. Blackwater might as well be on the moon. And someplace truely exotic like Zu? You know those exo-planets they keep finding?

The thing is that unless they write a book that details what you would know growing up in Bainsmarket the son of a Longrifleman until age 12 then moving Fellig to live with your retired Trencer SGT/Watch SGT grandfather to age 19 after your father is killed (my character's background), a book detailing what a Nyss Ranger/Cleric travelling south to Cygnar would know, a book detailing what an Iosan Ranger/Priest(Druid class) that has traveled to Cygnar would know, a book detailing what a gobber alchemist from Fellig would know, and a book detailing what a Ogrun bokur from Rhul whould know (the rest of our party) then I would prefer the players would be well versed in general knowledge in the setting. Being well versed in the background information of the world you are playing helps you role play in that setting. And though it would be really cool to send Doug Seacat each character concept and get back customized starting background knowledge booklets, I'm betting that is not going to happen. So I'll be reading all the background info they put out for IK (personally I hate the term fluff) and sharing what is important with our other players who are less inclined to dig into the worlds history.

If it was not for the richness of this setting we would not be playing any D&D 3.X at all and I am looking forward to the new system so we can put d20 back on the shelf. It was not the system that made my character fun it is the world and the details I pulled into his background. If I had not done a bunch of reading on the setting before making the character I would not have had him devout Morrowan and a follower of Asc. Markus. That detail did a great deal to shape my character and his history.

Even reading the player information you are going to accumulate knowledge about things about the world that a character would not know. I also read up a bunch on the Trollkin since my other character concept was a Fell Caller. Haemophilus knows next to nothing about Trollkin, but I as his player have a fair bit of knowledge about them. Also Haemoplilus would not sleep as peacefully at night when the Iosan is on guard duty if he knew about Iosan Mage Hunters. But all he really knows about elves he has learned enteracting with a quite probably mad Nyss and a most likely exiled Iosan.

[StJason]

And clearly every single character must start out as a back-water farmer.

-Rick

*headdesk*

Missed the point there entirely.
Let me put it this way: I live approximately 5000 miles from New York City. Without television, radio, or internet, with newspapers being a fairly new thing (and largely out to push an agenda more then report facts). With the printed word being primarily the province of the scholarly and skilled trades. With my lifetime travel distance being just a few miles (and this is true pretty much until the 19th century). How am I to find out anything about New York City?
Granted, adventurers travel and do a heck of a lot (actually, realistically, there is no way they could fit as much as they do into a single lifetime, but that's something completely else), but still, they don't have the resources we do to pull from. Your average Arcane Mechanic from Ceryl might know a little about Caspia from reputation. That means that if they were suddenly dropped in the middle of the city, they'd still be lost. They might be able to name a few Khadoran cities. Korsk, defiantly. But they'd probably not even heard of some place like Uldenfrost. At most, if suddenly dropped into there, that Arcane Mechanik might be able to locate a forge or blacksmith, an inn, and maybe even find a couple of people who speak Cygnaran. He'd definatly have no reason to know about the Czavyana Trading Post.

[Sthiel]

The thing is that unless they write a book that details what you would know growing up in Bainsmarket the son of a Longrifleman until age 12 then moving Fellig to live with your retired Trencer SGT/Watch SGT grandfather to age 19 afte ryour father is killed (my character's background), a book detailing what a Nyss Ranger/Cleric travelling south to Cygnar would know, a book detailing what an Iosan Ranger/Priest(Druid class) that has traveled to Cygnar would know, a book detailing what a gobber alchemist from Fellig would know, and a book detailing what a Ogrun bokur from Rhul whould know (the rest of our party) then I would prefer the players would be well versed in general knowledge in the setting. Being well versed in the background information of the world you are playing helps you role play in that setting. And though it would be really cool to send Doug Seacat each character concept and get back customized starting background knowledge booklets, I'm betting that is not going to happen. So I'll be reading all the background info they put out for IK (personally I hate the term fluff) and sharing what is important with our other players who are less inclined to dig into the worlds history.

If it was not for the richness of this setting we would not be playing any D&D 3.X at all and I am looking forward to the new system so we can put d20 back on the shelf. It was not the system that made my character fun it is the world and the details I pulled into his background.

Most game systems I have used allow the player to customize his character with area based knowledge that would allow them the kind of back grounds you creatively came up with above - so yes the system will probably handle it, but if you want your character to have that knowledge you will have to pay for it.

In My games, the player's character will know a little about the closest town and the country they live in, they will probably know some REALLY broad information about some of the major players, but the others (Cryx, Scyrah) would be in the form of legends and boogey-man stories they heard as children. Finding out about the world around them is part of the game in games I run for new / starting chars.

[Sthiel]

Oh and keep in mind Most people in the Iron Kingdoms (99% or higher) can't read.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

Let me put it this way: I live approximately 5000 miles from New York City. Without television, radio, or internet, with newspapers being a fairly new thing (and largely out to push an agenda more then report facts). With the printed word being primarily the province of the scholarly and skilled trades. With my lifetime travel distance being just a few miles (and this is true pretty much until the 19th century). How am I to find out anything about New York City?

But your character doesn't live 5000 miles form NYC. Your character lives less than a dozen miles from the lord of the local fiefdom. In a country that has just ended open war with 2 powerful nations and only shortly before that suvived a brutal assault from the Skorne Empire. On top of which it is constantly dealing with Cryx raids, reinforcing the Laell resistance, and trying to prevent the Sul menace from infultrating the south. With a full scale war brewing on the northern border.

Odds are you've either been in the military, or you are about to be conscripted. If not at the national level than by the local lord to deal with Farrow Bridgands, gators, and wolves plagueing the roads in and out of the region. Even if you aren't actively in the military, you're probably being taxes excessively to support the war effort. You're getting news and updates from the front to tell you about how good the Cygnar enemy is doing. When a visitor comes to town, every word they say, and a fair bit of assumptions and embelishment will be spread to everyone in the region.

This isn't like being a farmer in mid-state Montana where you just never see anyone. If no one knows where you are, no one will come to save you when bad stuff goes down. In the extremely hostile environment of the unclaimed wilds of the Iron Kingdom, it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes a village to stay alive.

So yeah, your character isn't going to know everything, and much of what they do know will likely be wrong. But either you and your players are mature enough to seperate your player's knowledge from that of the character, or they aren't. If they are, then the whole issue is moot. If they aren't, then either don't play with them, or don't let them read ANYTHING about the world, characters, systems, etc... and just tell them every single thing that they should know.

-Rick

[Sosthenes]

Oh and keep in mind Most people in the Iron Kingdoms (99% or higher) can't read.

I find that highly unlikely. Yes, the IKWG says that there's little to none formal education for most people, but that doesn't preclude some basic levels of literacy. A 99% illiteracy would be worse than most periods of human history, especially if documents like deeds, wills etc. exist. Once that's used for administrative purposes, knowledge tends to "trickle" down. This is especially true for urban environments, and the IK has lots of *very* large cities. And again, urban literacy tends to spread outwards, too.

[Kriegtanzer]

Most game systems I have used allow the player to customize his character with area based knowledge that would allow them the kind of back grounds you creatively came up with above - so yes the system will probably handle it, but if you want your character to have that knowledge you will have to pay for it.

In My games, the player's character will know a little about the closest town and the country they live in, they will probably know some REALLY broad information about some of the major players, but the others (Cryx, Scyrah) would be in the form of legends and boogey-man stories they heard as children. Finding out about the world around them is part of the game in games I run for new / starting chars.

We are on the same place I think with character knowledge. Haemophilus when he started knew his way around parts of a couple of cities, that we have yet to game in. When he first saw the Nyss as we joined the Muckmire Caravan in Fellig all he knew about the Nyss was that, "I think it's an Ice Elf from up north of Khador," that his Grandfather told him. But when we started the game I, the player knew as much or more about the Nyss than his player did.

What this thread got taking about was limiting the information the players know and not what the characters know. There is a difference in my mind and I oppose the first and am all for the second. It may be because I am older (42) and have been gaming for around 30 years, 23 of that with the same core gaming group. I have probably started playing or GMing a dozen or more different campaigns in the Forgottten Realms over the years with my group when we played mostly AD&D. So we have gotten used to having to look at the worlds we game in through the lens of "What would this character know?" and reminding each other when we stray out of character knowledge into player knowledge. As longtime gamers it is a skill you have to develop unless you never play the same game/setting twice.

What about when the player is experienced in the setting. They can still play a new character discovering the world for the first time. For me it becomes about the story and having players well versed in the world (even when their characters are not) has always show to me to make for a better story. Also there is always street view level discovery to be made. It does not matter that I know all the details printed about Caspia and Cryx if my character needs to find a store that sells bullets in Bainsmarket.

[Sthiel]

I find that highly unlikely. Yes, the IKWG says that there's little to none formal education for most people, but that doesn't preclude some basic levels of literacy. A 99% illiteracy would be worse than most periods of human history, especially if documents like deeds, wills etc. exist. Once that's used for administrative purposes, knowledge tends to "trickle" down. This is especially true for urban environments, and the IK has lots of *very* large cities. And again, urban literacy tends to spread outwards, too.

Respectfully, I believe you are mistaken. I would say most people couldn't read through the Inudstrial Revolution. Kids didn't go to school, they worked - either on the farm or in factories. It just wasn't a useful skill. It took a long time to make books. Books were few and cost as much as a normal man made in several years. They were either hand written or manually type set (Set a page, print a hundred copies of the page, set another page, print a hundred copies - one page at a time - and then at the end of a month you have 100 books).

And in IK we arent even talking Industrial revolution - I would say the feel (in my oppinion) is more like the Italian Renaissance. Rich people went to school or trade school - poor people farmed mud. Yes I understand there IS AN Industrial Revolution, but society isn't portrayed like the Earth Industrial Revolution. Though in IK they do have Steam and Trains - that seems to be derrived from Magik. Looking at the standard Infantryman still wearing armor and using swords and that most guns are single shot - Renaissance feels right (to me).

[Sthiel]

We are on the same place I think with character knowledge. Haemophilus when he started knew his way around parts of a couple of cities, that we have yet to game in. When he first saw the Nyss as we joined the Muckmire Caravan in Fellig all he knew about the Nyss was that, "I think it's an Ice Elf from up north of Khador," that his Grandfather told him. But when we started the game I, the player knew as much or more about the Nyss than his player did.

What this thread got taking about was limiting the information the players know and not what the characters know. There is a difference in my mind and I oppose the first and am all for the second. It may be because I am older (42) and have been gaming for around 30 years, 23 of that with the same core gaming group. I have probably started playing or GMing a dozen or more different campaigns in the Forgottten Realms over the years with my group when we played mostly AD&D. So we have gotten used to having to look at the worlds we game in through the lens of "What would this character know?" and reminding each other when we stray out of character knowledge into player knowledge. As longtime gamers it is a skill you have to develop unless you never play the same game/setting twice.

What about when the player is experienced in the setting. They can still play a new character discovering the world for the first time. For me it becomes about the story and having players well versed in the world (even when their characters are not) has always show to me to make for a better story. Also there is always street view level discovery to be made. It does not matter that I know all the details printed about Caspia and Cryx if my character needs to find a store that sells bullets in Bainsmarket.

Agreed - I wouldn't limit the players to knowledge - thats what makes it fun and interesting. Its about role playing - playing a character that only knows what is up to the edge of his field, meeting a Nyss for the first time! When I start a new campaign - we all sit down and talk about where the characters came from and what they know. I have more than once ruled a character 'Wouldn't know that'. Likewise a player can get extra XP making a decision that though it is the wrong decision game wise, it is what his character would have done.

[Sosthenes]

Respectfully, I believe you are mistaken. I would say most people couldn't read through the Inudstrial Revolution. Kids didn't go to school, they worked - either on the farm or in factories. It just wasn't a useful skill.

Reading doesn't mean reading books. (Hey, I'd say that for most people it still doesn't.)
A big historical factor was the increasingly wide-spread use of legal documents (we're talking about 12th-13th century here). At first this was mainly used by the government, i.e. the upper classes, but pretty soon it spread to the common people who wanted to have proper deeds, arrange their will, participate in commerce etc.. And a surprising number of those documents were done by those
individuals themselves. Sure, someone who could write on a higher level was clearly in demand, so scribes and the local reeve were surely in demand for those kind of deals. But just reading them and doing some simple writing for mercantile purposes was helpful enough. And it doesn't really take that long to attain some minimal level of literacy.

Looking at other cultures, the Romans were surprisingly literate, as is evident by the amount of graffiti you could find at sites like Pompeii. Highly unlikely that all of those "Gaius has a huge..." writings were done by the senators and their officials.

And then there's religion. The protestants were pretty keen on reading the bible yourself, as opposed to just listening to the filtered version offered by the Catholic clergy. So literacy amongst them was pretty high (which means that the US probably started out at a pretty decent level). While this doesn't seem to be as important in the Morrowan church, there are religious publications, and combined with the general principle of bettering yourself, I would think that it contributes a bit to general literacy, too.

Sure, we won't be seeing anything coming close to modern circumstances, but a 1% literacy rate would be historically ridiculous, considering the mercantile and urban nature of the IK. (1% highly literate, i.e. on Shakesperean levels would seem possible, though)

Everything's off for the Protectorate, of course, but dystopian societies generally don't follow the rules.

And in IK we arent even talking Industrial revolution - I would say the feel (in my oppinion) is more like the Italian Renaissance. Rich people went to school or trade school - poor people farmed mud. Yes I understand there IS AN Industrial Revolution, but society isn't portrayed like the Earth Industrial Revolution. Though in IK they do have Steam and Trains - that seems to be derrived from Magik. Looking at the standard Infantryman still wearing armor and using swords and that most guns are single shot - Renaissance feels right (to me).

Single shot guns were the most common forms until the middle of the 19th century, and there's no indication that most steam engines use magic. The general description of the technological centers definitely veers towards 18th/19th century equivalents. Sure, the more rural centers might be farther away from that, but that's always been the case. Farmers in Russia were quite backwards compared to people living in Moscow, and the more remote regions of e.g. China and India aren't really high-tech, either, even today.

Judging from the published history, Western Immoren reached Renaissance levels centuries before the Orgoth came.