New magic rules in the upcoming IK RPG

[Whimper]

A different thread was getting clogged up with this stuff, and it's important enough to discuss on its own.

Thoughts include:

I. Vancian magic.

Spells are like recipes, and must be prepared beforehand. They require ingredients (material components). Certain combinations of ingredients and processes produce the same result each time. Successful spells become widespread- whole traditions and fundamentals upon which more niche applications are developed. And once cast, a spell becomes unusable until prepared again.

Does it suck? Does it only suck for the Iron Kingdoms? What are its strengths and weaknesses as a system?

Pros:
+ Spells are complicated, codified, and intertextual. They feel like something that requires dedicated study and practice.
+ Spells are logical and predicable and useful. They are to magic what technology is to physics- repeatable and practical application.
+ Spells have variety. There are 'old stand-by' spells that everyone knows, and all manner of rare and esoteric niche spells.
+ Spells have set 'power levels'. A 9th level spell is always rarer and more powerful than a 2nd level spell.
+ Spellcasters have hard-coded limitations on spell-use. "Fire and forget" may seem dumb, but it keeps a wizard from casting fireball seven hundred times in a row.
+ Spellcasters have hard-coded limitations on spell selection. Packing your toolbox of daily spells keeps players from being paralyzed by too many choices when faced with a problem.

Cons:
- Having to choose beforehand constrains creativity and limits usefulness of spellcasters. Gandalf would never "forget" how to cast a Light spell just because he didn't plan on needing a flashlight that day.
- Bakers can adjust recipes- sweeter, lighter, feeds more, feeds less, etc etc. Vancian spellcasters are stuck with what they plan.
- Casters end up preparing spells they don't end up using-- a waste of time and resources.
- Many low-level spells become less useful over a character's growth and increase in power.
- "There are too many named spells"
- "Magic is too scientific and impersonal"
- "Magic should be more cinematic and less bound by rules"
- Iron Kingdoms designers have always claimed to have felt constrained by Dungeons & Dragons magic system.

II. Warmachine Magic System

Magic-wielding characters have short spell lists or "magic ability" lists, often consisting of three or fewer spells. Warcasters and Warlocks have more, usually between six and nine. Warcasters/locks must expend a dynamic points source (Focus or Fury) to cast spells. These points either regenerate automatically over time, or can be drawn from other sources as needed. Other spellcasters simply have a limit of one spell per turn. Some spells are the same across many different casters, but most have mainly unique and very simple spells. Spells are exclusively combat based because they are used in a miniatures combat game, but casters presumably have other magic available that they would not care to use on the battlefield.

Pros:
+ Possibility for highly customized spell/power lists that fit a character's personality and needs.
+ Small spell selection and simplicity of spells is easy for casual gamers.
+ Limited spell list keeps players from being paralyzed by too many choices (same as Vancian, above)
+ "Spell Points" (or Focus, or Fury) is fairly intuitive. You get a budget, you try to use it up but not exceed it.

Cons:
- Spells require a skill check to cast. PCs could see their turns wasted on fizzled spells thanks to unlucky dice.
- Existing spells don't seem to have any underlying philosophy of mechanics in design, except that playtesting has shown them to be "balanced" with other character abilities.
- Spells effects can't be adjusted (same as Vancian, above).
- Spell lists are so short, they fail to provide enough options for practical and flavorful character decisions.


III. Some Other Ideas.

There are systems out there with relatively few spells that can be tailored based on player preferences, and systems that allow spells' effects to be altered based on how many resources are expended. There are systems where spell casting is based on mini-games, like Deadlands which uses poker hands and playing cards. There are systems where spells draw on physical resources instead of mana/spell point pools-- you cast with your hit points, or you cast with the life of the trees around you, etc etc. There are systems where spells have no limitations on how often you cast them. There are systems where magic is purely random. There are some where spells are just character abilities, and some where spells are a one-time-only event.


What have you played before? What do you think would be the best fit for the new Iron Kingdoms RPG? What sorts of magic are known to exist in the IK setting, and what rules would support simulating those known spell examples?

[Lanz]

I'm sure it won't be the 'Vancian' magic (what is that name derived from?). Honestly, that style of magic is poor game design. The moment I first heard of it, it felt awkward immediately, and I remember the books that catered to it as canon always pulled me out of the lore when they tried to justify how it worked. It was an illogical system. I can understand why they did it, to circumvent the need for something like a mana pool (or maybe they hadn't thought of a mana pool-esque mechanic back then). There are so many better, more flavorful ways to handle magic.

I suspect in IKRPG2 they'll use some kind of action point pool (like focus) that is used to pay for spells, and it's replenish rate and maximum quantity are derived from spellcaster stats. Stuff like warcasters will get a boost to this based on the quality of their Warcaster Armor, and will serve to augment them in spellcasting.

So your basic bolt might cost like 2 and the caster has 7 maximum, then regenerates 1 per round or something. The reason I suspect a regeneration mechanic instead of just a larger pool is just that the system lends itself well to tokens and things to keep track, and it's a bit messier having 30 little glass beads or something piled around your character.

[Whimper]

I stole this link from a different thread.

Vancian Magic name origin: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic

The name comes from Jack Vance, an obscure writer of exotic Science Fiction and Fantasy. Vancian magic first appears in his The Dying Earth. Gary Gygax and his collaborator Dave Arneson subsequently "borrowed" the basic ideas for the magic system of... Dungeons & Dragons.

[Ogrob]

I'm thinking we'll see a system that isn't quite the same as the minature system, but has some connection to it.

Of course, I'm guessing, but I reckon there'll be a limited spell list (of spells known), a casting stat (Magic Ability/Focus/Fury), but perhaps that the resource involved isn't used to pay for spells, only to boost them. The NQ interview suggested that non-warcaster spellcasters also had a system of expending extra energy. There might be a system to limit the amount of spells one can sling, but I think it's unlikely.

Certainly not vancian casting but possibly spell levels and probably specific spells known. I don't think we'll see something like Spheres from Mage (not that I've played Mage), where as far as I understand, you have things like "I can control fire!" and the GM has to set effects and difficulties.

This is all based on PP apparently knowing what I want before I do, so I expect that if I can think of it, they've already done so.

[Psychomancer]

Though this might be a bit of a pipe dream, I'd like to see spells unique to individual characters. I've always felt that one of the weaknesses of the IKRPG D20 was the fact that magic was not that hard to come by. I mean, if you wanted to learn Chain Lightning as an 11th level Wizard, you could go up to a Cygnaran Archmage of the Fraternal Order and ask him to teach you the spell, and when he said no, all you had to do was go "Well, FINE! I'll get it for free NEXT LEVEL!"
It bleeds over into mechanika, too. I mean, what good is having super-sekrit mechanikal plans when any steamo of appropriate level can make a device that does the exact same thing just by getting the same spells for free on a level?

I like the idea of magic as a resource, i.e. a spell pool, but I also think that casting magic through your fingers and such would be a taxing thing, possibly imply some level of personal sacrifice. I mean, the whole idea of Mechanika is to essentially artificially amplify arcane power so it doesn't take so much effort to get a result, right? And why true magic items are so rare and precious.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I would like individual spells, with a few examples that are common, like Chain Lightning or Arcane Shield, or Iron Flesh or Frost Spray and the like. Common spells within a country or region that show up again and again.

[Sthiel]

I'm sure it won't be the 'Vancian' magic (what is that name derived from?).

Fred Vancian - made it up in his garage... ok not really, I made that up to pad my post count...

[Sosthenes]

Jack Vance is "obscure" nowadays? That's kinda sad. Highly recommended, espcially the Dying Earth stories where the magic system is kinda-sorta inspired. There is some difference, though. In the stories, every spell was almost a living creature, and a wizard really had to fight to get it in his head - no dozens of spell available at once, and it was possible to get something beyond your usual "level", albeit with some risks. The final stories are about a bunch of archmages maneuvering around, where the system gets slightly different and rather comically weird - and this is where D&D's hovering ioun stones are coming from. Lots of pacts with extra-dimensional entities who try to out-maneuver you. Could prove inspirational for some Infernal plots, probably with the humor removed.

Bug anyway, regarding the IKRPG2 magic system: Every RPG has to treat magic as a resource, so there's at least one limiting factor. This could be spells per day, spells "loaded" (D&D is a mix of both), spell points, spells causing fatigue, spells taking a long time or something similar.

The type often correlates with the wound system. If you've got hit points, spell points seem a natural fit. If you're tracking your fatigue/wound status often the same or a similar track is used for magic. D&D is almost the odd man out, mostly due to historic reasons.

So if IKRPG2 has hit points, I guess we'll get spell points, too. Probably with a daily recharge, although my general preference is something slower. Combined with less frequent magical healing than D20 - possible with the background - you wouldn't have a fresh start every day, with every resource up to its maximum. This leads to a more strategical play and some longer timeouts where you have to recuperate. I really don't expect this to happen, though. Not a very popular choice, people seem to prefer quick turnarounds, and video games only made this worse.

Like I said in the level thread, I would love to see mages differing in several key statistics. In lots of games, the major issues are spells known and power (max spell level, spell points etc.). RoleMaster is pretty much like this. D&D 3E mostly adds the relative ease of resistance rolls in there. Skill-based systems vary by the likelihood of the effect happening at all (and skill might govern max. power, too).

I like the concept of wizards who can't sling around as much raw power, but have finer control. Or are better with "multi-tasking" spells. It would be great if at least part of this is ingrained in the core spell casting statistics, not just added special abilities/backgrounds/feats - all of those are basically optional rules you have to know and look up, which gets annoying enough with your basic spells.

And I kinda hope that any background bonuses for the human cultures amount to a small head start and not a general ability to perform e.g. ice magic better. I find truly "racial" bonuses for Kossites or Thurians slightly icky, especially considering the general nationalistic bent currently.

[Sosthenes]

Ooh, by the way, if you want to look at an interesting and rather minimal spellcasting system, I can recommend Talislanta. All of which is now available free and legally. Get the 4th edition rules - there's a 5th edition and even a D20 edition, but the 4th has everything in one place. The interesting factor is that you've got a few skills (Attack, Move etc.) and every "spell" is just based on your intention, and if it's more powerful it's more difficult. Different casting styles (wizardry, shamanism) might have not every skill available or get bonuses or penalties to a few. There are still supposed to be "spells" for most magical styles, but it's assumed that the caster just knows a lot of them when casting a new effect - very easy to have personalized and unique spells. Very flexible, but also very simple.

And the grand daddy of all "serious" magic systems is still Ars Magica. It's set in historic Europe, where a few cabals of wizards are maneuvering behind the scenes. Magic is a pretty free form but highly detailed verb-subject system ("Create Fire" -> firebolt etc.). The previous edition (4th) is available legally and free, too. (direct link to PDF download)

Both systems are pretty dissimilar to both Warmahordes and D20, but I thought that if someone wants to broaden their horizons a bit... (And I still think that the core Talislanta 4th/5th edition system is one of the best ever. As the "OMNI System" it's used in a few different products, including the delightful "Greeks in Space" Hellas)

[Sthiel]

So are Focus and "Magic Power" going to be separate? Because in WM only Warcasters have Focus, its their defining characteristic. Non-Warcaster spell users have a set success value unrelated to any stat - it does act the same with regards to how magic works, but Warcasters can use Focus for other things.

[Bingas]

The "Magic" system that i think would fot best is a modified psionics from 3.5. (Expanded Psionics Handbook). It is just a mana pool, but the power output depends on how much omph you put in. This feels closer to the Boosting we get in the mini game.

[jdripley]

As I said in the other thread, I think that casters will get a Magic Ability score that they use to roll against Defense for offensive spells. Their spell list will simply be the spells they can choose from every time they cast. Warcasters may start this way and eventually be able to gain focus, and then replace their Magic Ability with Focus entirely. Warmachine and Hordes both establish a precedent for most casters operating this way. The Warcasters and the Warlocks are exceptional individuals who have a very specialized form of magic.

I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised though.

[StJason]

*grumble* ...hate mana pool systems... *grumble*

[Sosthenes]

*grumble* ...hate mana pool systems... *grumble*

I'm not the biggest fan of the word "mana" (reminds me of Shadowrun and bad JRPGs), but don't mind spell points. Doesn't require making lists, doesn't result in a "death spiral" for magic and usually casters aren't able to circumvent them (resisting drain etc., which in my experience leads to loads of min/maxing).

Conceptually, I always had a slight grudge against the utter simplicity and abstraction of "hit points", but from a gaming situation it's quite usable. You know where you are and it's easier than loads of alternatives.

I've made my peace with simple systems.

[Lanz]

Well, a spell point pool / magic point / mana system is usually the most ideal and most conceptually straight forwards. You have a pool of energy you can dedicate to casting spells. Beyond that you can use that as a base for all sorts of interesting interactions between spells and spell point pools and it opens the way for other interesting effects, like attacks the draining MP/SP/Mana allowing you to fuel your spells, etc.

The downside is typically that it's more annoying to keep track of.

Typically health pools are also the most workable. They don't reflect a realistic impression of a character's survivability, but they are a good base to build that kind of system on.

The most simple and functional answer is not always the best answer by itself, but it's almost always the best place to start from when building the answer.

[Sosthenes]

I've yet to see some kind of magic system where you don't have to track at least one number. Whether it's fatigue or spell points doesn't really matter that much. And even condition tracks do require some status to be kept. Or systems where each spell causes a cumulative casting skill penalty. Or spell lists per day, spell slots per level etc. (Accumulating successes/energy for one spell is a notable exception, where not the time to recover is the factor, but the time to cast the spell. Ruins combat, and often those systems still have some additional resource limitation factor)

There's also the factor of congruency to be considered. Don't introduce too many subsystems (sorry, OSR crowd). If you've already got hit points, spell points seem to come natural. If you're already doing vigor/fortitude/constitution resistance rolls for a health status, do something similar for magic.

Setting general preferences aside, considering the general use of point pools in the wargame, I'd be really surprised if we moved beyond hit points and magic points.

[The Happy Anarchist]

One thing that hasn't been considered, but does actually work and is even more simple, and fits the setting and the WM & Hordes game.

Make spells balanced compared to other things, and let people do them at will. You know the spell for throwing fire at someone? Great. It is effectively a more powerful pistol that you have to spend XP/what have you on and you always have available. It is balanced though because it isn't this huge damage thing that puts a pistol to shame. Just slightly more effective. Or maybe an ice bolt that freezes and is more versatile.

Similar to the spell to translate a language. Is there a reason you need to only be able to cast this a certain number of times per day, or spend spell points or get damaged? You paid XP/what have you, gave up some combat potential or skill potential or what have you. Why not just make it a simple "Magic Ability" roll of some sort and if it works, great you can translate this language.

Detect Magic? Dispel spells? Throw balls of lightning? Stealth a group?

I just don't see how letting the mages have their abilities at will would cause problems, so long as the abilities are balanced within the context of the game - just like a Scout being able to camouflage the group or their gear, or find a good path or sneak around, or the Arcane Mechanic being able to create a doo dad, or the bodger being able to fix a jack.

[Defenstrator]

My favorite magic system is still the one from Ars Magica. The ability to cast a variety of spells, do minor magic on the fly, and counter other spells. The last is really important becuase it's one of the few systems in which magicians can actually duel.

Second is probably Shadowrun. No spontaneous magic, but one of the few systems to make summoning elementals and spirits a core mechanic. And again you can actually counter spells and banish spirits.

Warmachine seems to use a power pool that mainly focuses on spell casting directly. There is no ability to confer spells except as an already upkept ability. I'm interested to see what they will do with it, but I have a hard time guessing what direction it will go.

[Carnage]

Warmachine seems to use a power pool that mainly focuses on spell casting directly. There is no ability to confer spells except as an already upkept ability. I'm interested to see what they will do with it, but I have a hard time guessing what direction it will go.

This is only in the case of Warcasters and Warlocks who are capable of multiple actions in one round. Most other magic units/solos use a special action for the casting of a spell (foregoing the ability to attack normally), either automatically succeeding or requiring a skill roll to hit and occasionally, a skill roll to succeed at all.

[ProtoClone]

One thing that hasn't been considered, but does actually work and is even more simple, and fits the setting and the WM & Hordes game.

Make spells balanced compared to other things, and let people do them at will. You know the spell for throwing fire at someone? Great. It is effectively a more powerful pistol that you have to spend XP/what have you on and you always have available. It is balanced though because it isn't this huge damage thing that puts a pistol to shame. Just slightly more effective. Or maybe an ice bolt that freezes and is more versatile.

Similar to the spell to translate a language. Is there a reason you need to only be able to cast this a certain number of times per day, or spend spell points or get damaged? You paid XP/what have you, gave up some combat potential or skill potential or what have you. Why not just make it a simple "Magic Ability" roll of some sort and if it works, great you can translate this language.

Detect Magic? Dispel spells? Throw balls of lightning? Stealth a group?

I just don't see how letting the mages have their abilities at will would cause problems, so long as the abilities are balanced within the context of the game - just like a Scout being able to camouflage the group or their gear, or find a good path or sneak around, or the Arcane Mechanic being able to create a doo dad, or the bodger being able to fix a jack.

I think I see what you are getting at in a part of your post. Why does magic have to always be something that costs you no matter how experienced you are?

If the game is going to possibly be percentage based then I could see spells having something indicating when it is considered mastered. The spell has a chance of failing if your ability with magic doesn't meet or exceed the minimal requirement to master it.

So, let's say, Comprehend Language is considered Mastered, and not needing of rolling dice to cast, when your Magical Abilities are at 15%, but you're only at 10%. You haven't quite invested enough time to your arcane studies to master it and have to roll to see if you perform the spell successfully. But then, later on, you bump your Magical Ability skill up by +10% (effectively making it 20%) and because of this now higher percentage you don't need to roll to cast that spell, you are just that good. Some spells could be set up so that they can never be mastered while other, some of the more basic spells, can be mastered.

[Sosthenes]

So, let's say, Comprehend Language is considered Mastered, and not needing of rolling dice to cast, when your Magical Abilities are at 15%, but you're only at 10%. You haven't quite invested enough time to your arcane studies to master it and have to roll to see if you perform the spell successfully. But then, later on, you bump your Magical Ability skill up by +10% (effectively making it 20%) and because of this now higher percentage you don't need to roll to cast that spell, you are just that good. Some spells could be set up so that they can never be mastered while other, some of the more basic spells, can be mastered.

That's a whole lot of rules that seem to be unique to the magic system, i.e. probably don't have a counterpart in skills used for combat, maneuvering or social interaction. I'd prefer something that uses the basic skill mechanism as much as possible, and if you need to special-case something, make it work for the whole magic system, don't make me look up "tags" in individual spells.

If there's a thing like "Take 10" and your skill would suffice, then you don't need to roll, but you wouldn't need to rely on something specific to magic. Although I would suspect that there's always a potential for failure, so at least check whether it isn't 2 on 2d6 or something similar. One roll per spell hardly seems too troublesome

Not that I'm against the general idea of making things easier, but I'd rather go for saving resources than rolls. It could easily be done that once you reach a certain skill level, every spell costs 1 point less. This might be enough to make lower level spells free. Or instead of individual skills, it could be due to your general achievement as a mage, i.e. some kind of ability that lets you reduce the cost of all electricity-spells by one.

Or my preferred way: Voluntary skill penalties. Maybe you can tinker with the variables of a spell, including duration, range and cost. So the mage has to make a choice whether he wants to be sure the spell is out, or whether he wants it to cost less. For archmages, this leaves a lot of room, but it also provides some potential gambling for less skilled casters. And gambling is fun.

[ProtoClone]

That's a whole lot of rules that seem to be unique to the magic system, i.e. probably don't have a counterpart in skills used for combat, maneuvering or social interaction. I'd prefer something that uses the basic skill mechanism as much as possible, and if you need to special-case something, make it work for the whole magic system, don't make me look up "tags" in individual spells.

If there's a thing like "Take 10" and your skill would suffice, then you don't need to roll, but you wouldn't need to rely on something specific to magic. Although I would suspect that there's always a potential for failure, so at least check whether it isn't 2 on 2d6 or something similar. One roll per spell hardly seems too troublesome

Not that I'm against the general idea of making things easier, but I'd rather go for saving resources than rolls. It could easily be done that once you reach a certain skill level, every spell costs 1 point less. This might be enough to make lower level spells free. Or instead of individual skills, it could be due to your general achievement as a mage, i.e. some kind of ability that lets you reduce the cost of all electricity-spells by one.

Or my preferred way: Voluntary skill penalties. Maybe you can tinker with the variables of a spell, including duration, range and cost. So the mage has to make a choice whether he wants to be sure the spell is out, or whether he wants it to cost less. For archmages, this leaves a lot of room, but it also provides some potential gambling for less skilled casters. And gambling is fun.

Like I said, I thought I saw your point.

Anyway, that was just a thought off the top of my head.

Any way they do, it will have to be better then what we have seen in other systems.

[Sosthenes]

I'm okay with anything as long as the beginning power level isn't fireballs.

[Carnage]

I'm okay with anything as long as the beginning power level isn't fireballs.

Beginning level spell: Firecube

[Sosthenes]

Beginning level spell: Firecube

Is that a variant of Timecube?

[Carnage]

Is that a variant of Timecube?

Yea, just more fiery.

[Cold-Iron]

Pathfinder has tweaked how D&D stile magic works in several good ways that might work. Canrips are unlimeted casting so you always have a light or some other utility spells. Then depending on what type of wizard you are you get some magical abilatys based on your school. As an example a wizard who was part of the transmutation school it able to throw telekinetic punches. So modify it slightly and you got a mix of spells that are useful and always at hand and spells that make magic feel like something that requires study.

[Carnage]

Pathfinder has tweaked how D&D stile magic works in several good ways that might work. Canrips are unlimeted casting so you always have a light or some other utility spells. Then depending on what type of wizard you are you get some magical abilatys based on your school. As an example a wizard who was part of the transmutation school it able to throw telekinetic punches. So modify it slightly and you got a mix of spells that are useful and always at hand and spells that make magic feel like something that requires study.

At it's core though, I don't feel that D&D/Pathfinder really capture the way magic is described in the IK lore. Even with added bonuses, the system just really doesn't feel very IK in how it works. Honestly, I hope they can come up with something more intuitive and easier to use than Vancian magic, as I've always found it to be kind of clunky.

[Sosthenes]

I might be misreading some things (again), but I always considered "playful" magic against the IK spirit. I can't picture members of the Fraternal Order to use prestidigitation spells all willy-nilly to clean up their stuff and provide for entertainment (regardless of whether the system supports it or not). Just like almost nobody seems to have a familiar. Mages are described as rare and pure magic doesn't seem to be that omni-present.

Mechanika on the other hand…

[Yronhand]

I remember that they adjusted some of the mechanics - there's no need for material components for example. I never liked the whole, "must need this material" especially for minor spells and whatnot.

[Cynical Cat]

I've yet to see some kind of magic system where you don't have to track at least one number. Whether it's fatigue or spell points doesn't really matter that much. And even condition tracks do require some status to be kept. Or systems where each spell causes a cumulative casting skill penalty. Or spell lists per day, spell slots per level etc. (Accumulating successes/energy for one spell is a notable exception, where not the time to recover is the factor, but the time to cast the spell. Ruins combat, and often those systems still have some additional resource limitation factor)

Warhammer Fantasy 2nd and 3rd edition as well as the various Warhammer 40K games have spellcasting systems that don't involve tracking any numbers. They balance casting by magicians having a limited repitoire and having casting being risky and mistrusted by the common folk. Earthdawn also has a pointless spellcasting system and balanced it by specialization, limited repetoire at one time, and the fact that every class used magic to be over the top fantasy hero awesome.

Setting general preferences aside, considering the general use of point pools in the wargame, I'd be really surprised if we moved beyond hit points and magic points.

I agree. It would also keep the systems fairly consistent with how the world is presented (through the mechanics of other games) which would be a plus. I love Jack Vance, but it seems a poor fit for Iron Kingdoms and there's no need to keep a d20 holdover that conflicts with the way that Iron Kingdoms magic is presented in other material. There's still room to do interesting stuff with a point system. After all they've said they're going to do a variation of Hordes lifespiral for hitpoints and it would very neat if they could come up with something similar and interesting for spellpoints.

[PG_The Captain]

At it's core though, I don't feel that D&D/Pathfinder really capture the way magic is described in the IK lore. Even with added bonuses, the system just really doesn't feel very IK in how it works. Honestly, I hope they can come up with something more intuitive and easier to use than Vancian magic, as I've always found it to be kind of clunky.

Indeed. I mean, how many Cones of cold, Obscuring mists and, err, spellsthatmakethetargeteasiertohit, can a Greylord Magziev memorize so as to be able to represent their tabletop abilities? And if they are all level 15+ wizards (which is unlikely, since Koldun Lord Volkh Lazar was level 18), why do they still have only one damage box?

Of course, the same applies to everything else in the game - getting ridiculous amounts of Hitpoints per level, compared to the ability to deal damage, means that a Widowmaker could never one-shot a Stormblade, and the Stormblade couldn't one-hit the Widowmaker in return.

I'd be happy if spellcasters weren't limited to a certain number of spells per day in an "I'm out of batteries, now I can only hit things with a stick" manner D&D does, but rather have something useful to do all the time, but with some sort of limitation for the more powerful stuff. The idea of reducing lower "level" spell casting cost is a good one. Perhaps even granting each caster a low-level "signature spell" they can keep tossing for free, whether that's a "Heal 1 Hp", or a "POW6 magic damage roll with range 6"" or a "target person likes you a little more". Everything else could come from a "magic point pool", which I'd prefer to replenish slowly over time instead of instantly once you get eight hours of uninterrupted sleep (which, back in the old AD&D, made us wonder how the old, long-bearded wizards who probably had to use the chamberpot three times per night could ever memorize anything). Resting could make it faster, or resting would be even required, but please spare me from those nightly encounters where I had slept for 7 hours and were just as useless as when I went to sleep.

[Iron_Peanut]

Okay, so speculation time. Here is some stuff we already know:
I know that a PC needs to have the Gifted Archetype in order to have a spellcasting Career.
I know that there are 4 main stats, only 3 of which were mentioned in the latest No Quarter. The fourth one, Power, is presumably your wizarding stat.
I know that the previous NQ interview implied that spellcasting rules are less about Warcasters and Warlocks and more about that Greylord with Magic Ability (7). Also there is the implication that wizards will have a resource (which is not Focus or Fury) that they manage, and with which they can augment their capabilities.

So I figure at chargen you'll take your Gifted Archetype, pick a spellcasting-relevant Career, and that Career will have Advantage: "WIZARD!" or the like in it. Spellcasting attack roll and the like will be managed by rolling (Power Stat + Spellcasting Skill) vs. Defense. Non-attack spellcasting might require a skill check rolled with the same bonus as previously mentioned, and then compared to a static DC based on the difficulty of the spell.
This static DC could be useful for the old Pain of Healing rule, now that I think about it. Your heal spell starts at a fairly low DC, but the DC steps up a couple of points each time you use it within a certain time period, or each time you use it without fulfilling relevant conditions (like healing blasphemous non-Menites), or both. Eventually the DC gets to the point where you can't make it reliably, and then your heals don't work anymore. If you keep pushing your luck and you fail the roll by a large margin, your god takes offense at your misuse of their power and strikes you blind or leprous.
Alternatively, they could keep it closer to Warmahordes and have you roll under (Power + Spellcasting), but this would make me upset. I always want to be rolling in the same direction. Also, the switch from THAC0 to BAB taught us all that addition is easier than subtraction.

One thing I am really interested in is the way in which sorcerers will be differentiated from wizards. People dislike sorcerers strongly, but wizards seem to come off as upper-middle-class skilled professional. Like a barrister. Why is this? It probably has to do with more than spontaneous vs. prepared casting.
I think that for sorcerers, magic is this thing that is inside of them and they can sort of push at it it to do crazy stuff, and they get better at it with practice. For wizards, magic is this thing that is all around them that they can manipulate to do crazy stuff, and they get better with practice.

Another thing is that while reading the fluff, I get the sense that a lot of the time, the stuff on a Warnoun's spell list aren't actually spells in the formal contetxt (likewise, Focus is not mana). When Karchev uses Eruption, he doesn't say magic words and wave his (giant robot) hands around, he just hates at something until it explodes. Kraye's ability to make jacks go faster is a unique talent he has; if Cygnar could just teach more people how to cast Full Tilt, they would.

I'm imagining that you learn new spells and magic gimmicks through something like a talent tree. For sorcerers, that talent tree is determined by theme (hating on stuff, making robots go faster, lighting things on fire) and is fairly limited. For wizards, it would be determined by your schooling and background. It's hard to imagine a Cygnaran wizard who doesn't learn Chain Lightning at some point in his career.

[Iron_Peanut]

Or my preferred way: Voluntary skill penalties. Maybe you can tinker with the variables of a spell, including duration, range and cost. So the mage has to make a choice whether he wants to be sure the spell is out, or whether he wants it to cost less. For archmages, this leaves a lot of room, but it also provides some potential gambling for less skilled casters. And gambling is fun.

Fantasy Craft did this. Fantasy Craft is like a version of d20 that came from an alternate universe where d20 didn't suck.
All of the metamagic feats went two ways - you could "enhance" a spell by doubling duration/expanding AoE/extending range/whatever, and this would increase the effective level of the spell, which would make it cost more spell points, be more difficult to cast, etc. Alternatively, you could "hobble" a spell by halving duration/changing an AoE effect to a single target one/reducing the range to Touch/whatever, and this would lower the effective level of the spell, which would make it easier to cast, cheaper on SP, etc.
Lowering the effective level also gave PCs access to higher-level spells earlier, though in personalized, nerfed variants.
I think it was a well-implemented idea, if not for simply giving me the experience of my Wizard PC casting a range Touch fireball. It was hilarious until he continually took burning damage and then passed out, and then it was worrying, and then the fire went out and he stabilized and it was hilarious again.
I will concede I am very biased in favor of Fantasy Craft. It's still d20, but nobody's perfect.

Also, RE: Archmages: I've sometimes wondered if the spells being cast in a game of Warmachine aren't already Maximized/Extended/etc., just as a matter of course. There's a war going on, so why hold back? If I am a Warcaster and I see a Juggernaut coming at me, you can bet I am going to cast the most spell I possibly can.

[Cynical Cat]

One thing I am really interested in is the way in which sorcerers will be differentiated from wizards. People dislike sorcerers strongly, but wizards seem to come off as upper-middle-class skilled professional. Like a barrister. Why is this? It probably has to do with more than spontaneous vs. prepared casting.
I think that for sorcerers, magic is this thing that is inside of them and they can sort of push at it it to do crazy stuff, and they get better at it with practice. For wizards, magic is this thing that is all around them that they can manipulate to do crazy stuff, and they get better with practice.

This is addressed in the IK d20 sourcebooks. It's a purely human prejudice and comes down to several reasons.

1) The Orgoth used dark arcane magic to do all sorts of horrible stuff and their warwitches were sorcerers.

2) A long tradition of learned professionals being able to do fantastical stuff and be productive parts of society, best exemplified by alchemy. Anyone can do wizardry now, but in practice it's so hard that only a few do (just like anyone in theory could learn to do graduate level math and physics).

3) The other source of easy to learn magic, that isn't clerical(although clerical magic is probably pretty hard as well), is bargains with Infernal. Even the Order of Illumination can have trouble distinguishing between human magic and Infernal magic.

4) Teenagers with all their issues and magic. Think about how ugly that can get and that's the normal manifestation of sorcery.

5) Religion. Humans possessing arcane magic is against the will of Menoth and is due to an act of Thamar, probably with Morrow's (reluctant) acquiescence. That's not exactly a stellar recommendation for the practice.

6) Wizardry was key in overthrowing the Orgoth occupiers. Their work forms the bases of the mechanika which forms the backbone of the armed might of every major nation-state. Sorcerers helped, but they didn't create the Colossals or lay the groundwork for the new science of mechanika.

7) Tradition. Because of 1-6 and ignorance, the usual impression of sorcery is very negative. Add in the long standing existence of a state sponsored anti-sorcerer Inquisition (ostensibly to hunt Infernalists, but see 3&4) and you have a long standing tradition of bias and suspicion directed towards sorcerers.

[Iron_Peanut]

This is addressed in the IK d20 sourcebooks. It's a purely human prejudice and comes down to several reasons.

Yeah, but to say all of this and then have sorcerers be nearly identical to wizards in the way they operate seems uncool. Sorcerers should feel more dangerous from the player's end.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Ditto. I hope Sorcerers seem different than Wizards for sure.

[Cynical Cat]

Yeah, but to say all of this and then have sorcerers be nearly identical to wizards in the way they operate seems uncool. Sorcerers should feel more dangerous from the player's end.

Oh, I agree. That's a problem with the core engine of the old game being 3.0/3.5 D&D. Hopefully the new game will have more interesting material along those lines.

[DragnTyr]

My opinion on Wizards VS Sorcerers is thus..

We can all agree that Wizards have the formulas and theory down to cast magic (and create Magic Items) and even create new magic items and spells with research. They are also excellent at creating real magic Items (and by real I mean the traditional magic items that we all know and love) thanks to the Arcane formulas that they have researched. Excel at Magic Item creation, and Spell creation. Of course there is some differences based on where (what) game world you play.

Now I think for the most part that we can agree that Sorcerers do not have the ability to rely of formulas and magical research, that they just have a natural talent for magic. They can feel (maybe even see) magic and how it flows. Their talent lies in the ability to see what they want to do with their spells and channel (or force) the magic currents to do what they want through force of will and endurance. They excel at Destruction and charming. Of course there is some differences based on where (what) game world you play.


I have never like D&D Sorcerers to begin with because they were just another form of wizard with a different dressing on it. I would like to see and most likely will change in any game going forward that I run some of these changes to Sorcerers:

Sorcerer Changes:
1) They can use more weapon and armour types then Wizards because their talents are latent until something stressful bring them out(a trigger). There for they would have more mundane Arms and Armour training.
2) They can choose any damage spells, They can also choose spells that will aid them selves and other in combat, and they can choose spells that will charm or enchant People (used loosely to represent Demi humans in every game). They can not choose creation spells, Spells that do stuff for you, detection or Identifying spells.
3) They get the ability to tell if something is magical if they are holding it or studying it with their gaze, touch or other natural sense that they possess (spell craft roll with appropriate penalties to sense if it is magical). This will not identify it they must use it in order to identify it. If the item is cursed they can use a spell craft type roll with appropriate penalty to not be cursed (technically they did not use it they can just see/feel that the magic is bad/harmful), then if they still use it after the know they suffer all of the curses effects as per normal.
4) They have the ability to recharge but not create magic items. Sorceress are able to recharge magical items just like wizards but not create them.
5) Sorcerers are able to create their own magic items but they are not the same as a normal wizards items they use runes just like a Wizard does and all of the same precious materials but they can not permanently create a magically infused item when the Sorcerer uses and item that is made by a Sorcerer they provide the magic to power the spell inscribed on the item. This is not very efficient way of using magic but really why you do not see magic items created by Sorcerers.
6) How ever Sorcerers are very good at Alchemy since they can see/sense the flow of magic even to different plants. This allows them to create non magical but very powerful items even power cells for their magic items that they build in to the items that they create. This is the only way that they are able to fool the common folks since one magic item looks like another at least to them. This is the only things that they can create because this is also allowed to be created by non magic users in the game as well.


For the most part these are the most severe changes to the class that I would make, there are also a few minor ones but really they are the way magic use used by this class and would require another few paragraphs.. of which I am not very good at putting together on my own so I will leave them for a later discussion.

[StJason]

I have never like D&D Sorcerers to begin with because they were just another form of wizard with a different dressing on it. I would like to see and most likely will change in any game going forward that I run some of these changes to Sorcerers:

Sorcerer Changes:
1) They can use more weapon and armour types then Wizards because their talents are latent until something stressful bring them out(a trigger). There for they would have more mundane Arms and Armour training.
2) They can choose any damage spells, They can also choose spells that will aid them selves and other in combat, and they can choose spells that will charm or enchant People (used loosely to represent Demi humans in every game). They can not choose creation spells, Spells that do stuff for you, detection or Identifying spells.
3) They get the ability to tell if something is magical if they are holding it or studying it with their gaze, touch or other natural sense that they possess (spell craft roll with appropriate penalties to sense if it is magical). This will not identify it they must use it in order to identify it. If the item is cursed they can use a spell craft type roll with appropriate penalty to not be cursed (technically they did not use it they can just see/feel that the magic is bad/harmful), then if they still use it after the know they suffer all of the curses effects as per normal.
4) They have the ability to recharge but not create magic items. Sorceress are able to recharge magical items just like wizards but not create them.
5) Sorcerers are able to create their own magic items but they are not the same as a normal wizards items they use runes just like a Wizard does and all of the same precious materials but they can not permanently create a magically infused item when the Sorcerer uses and item that is made by a Sorcerer they provide the magic to power the spell inscribed on the item. This is not very efficient way of using magic but really why you do not see magic items created by Sorcerers.
6) How ever Sorcerers are very good at Alchemy since they can see/sense the flow of magic even to different plants. This allows them to create non magical but very powerful items even power cells for their magic items that they build in to the items that they create. This is the only way that they are able to fool the common folks since one magic item looks like another at least to them. This is the only things that they can create because this is also allowed to be created by non magic users in the game as well.

I always thought it was puzzling that wizards, the studious ones, could specialize in a single field of magic, whereas Sorcerers were by nature generalists. It would make much more sense to me if Sorcerers had to specialize. Alexia specialized in necromancy. It was her natural talent and ability. A Fire Mage (actually a sorcerer) would specialize even further. Alexia casting Ray of Enfeeblement or Ghoul Touch makes more sense then Alexia casting Lightning Bolt. A Fire Mage firing off Acid Bolt just doesn't make any sense.
I'd further have them use the specialist variants from Unearthed Arcana, as that just seems to make so much more sense.