changes to knocked down jacks

**drachenfels** · 02-22-2012, 07:34 PM

ok so a ruling has come down to jacks, knocked down and water...

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...water-and-pull

so basically no knocking down a jack then pulling/pushing it into water (swamp pit specifically)
this combined with previous changes to slams not being able to move already knocked down models

any thoughts? concerns?

honesty i think it makes the soon to be released swamp horror less useful, and makes moving jacks into water to extinguish them (often gators primary plan for dealing with jacks) not really as viable any longer.

**HoodooDoll** · 02-22-2012, 07:56 PM

Yeah this bothered me as well, I really get tired of my one friend saying just bring more thrullgs. I feel like we should have more then one option to hinder jack spamming lists.

**iveysdad** · 02-22-2012, 08:10 PM

maelok... go through the jack...

**MagnustheJust** · 02-22-2012, 09:43 PM

As I said in that thread, I highly disagree with that ruling.

Whether the warjack comes to the water, or the water comes to the warjack, if it's knocked down in water - before or after being knocked down - it's pilot light should still go out.

This was never an issue for almost a decade, until the Gator army came to be... Hell, Kreoss was the first to do stuff like this way back when if there was water on the table!!

**anewbre** · 02-23-2012, 04:37 AM

I agree, but since I mainly fight against Hordes, slamming beasts into swamp pits only gives them a bath. Satyrs certainly stink when wet!

**Sevwall** · 02-23-2012, 04:53 AM

It only affects horrors for the most part, and we can all agree that was silly dirty.

**MagnustheJust** · 02-23-2012, 04:58 AM

Dirty or not, it was needed for dealing with high armour. Now we have to rely on throws, which are not accurate to say the least...

**GlassJaw** · 02-23-2012, 05:45 AM

Agreed. Not a fan of this ruling.

**Jestor** · 02-23-2012, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sevwall

It only affects horrors for the most part, and we can all agree that was silly dirty.

Not quite. It is a blanket nerf to Barney's feat. You need to lay swamps before extinguishing jacks. You need to pop his feat before moving on. Basically, swamps on his feat turn are useless except as a defense against shooting. You can't throw models or push/pull models in to the swamps.

The ruling was unnecessary and stupid. It effects one faction and has no rule in the book to back it up.

Will it effect me? In 1 out of 5 or 6 games I play with Barney I will need to change what I am doing slightly.

**McNs** · 02-23-2012, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Jestor

Not quite. It is a blanket nerf to Barney's feat. You need to lay swamps before extinguishing jacks. You need to pop his feat before moving on. Basically, swamps on his feat turn are useless except as a defense against shooting. You can't throw models or push/pull models in to the swamps.

That's not quite correct. Throwing a model into the pit will still put jacks out (as the model is knocked down [reaches the KD state] in the water feature). You can't push/pull models into pits anymore, but that was frankly gross. Its biggest hit was to the Swmap Horror + Barnabas, which is annoying, but conversely - that was a pain in the *** to play against with Warmachine.

I like this ruling as it clarifies the difference between "knocked down" the state and "is knocked down", the action of reaching the state of knocked down, for two feats that were vague due to the written word.

**drachenfels** · 02-23-2012, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by McNs

That's not quite correct. Throwing a model into the pit will still put jacks out (as the model is knocked down [reaches the KD state] in the water feature). You can't push/pull models into pits anymore, but that was frankly gross. Its biggest hit was to the Swmap Horror + Barnabas, which is annoying, but conversely - that was a pain in the *** to play against with Warmachine.

I like this ruling as it clarifies the difference between "knocked down" the state and "is knocked down", the action of reaching the state of knocked down, for two feats that were vague due to the written word.

a model that is already knocked down (by barnies feat) can't become knocked down again (by a throw) since it already is knocked down

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...t-water-ruling

so barnies feat and his swamp pits are now skornergy it seems...

**Jestor** · 02-23-2012, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by McNs

That's not quite correct. Throwing a model into the pit will still put jacks out (as the model is knocked down [reaches the KD state] in the water feature). You can't push/pull models into pits anymore, but that was frankly gross. Its biggest hit was to the Swmap Horror + Barnabas, which is annoying, but conversely - that was a pain in the *** to play against with Warmachine.

I like this ruling as it clarifies the difference between "knocked down" the state and "is knocked down", the action of reaching the state of knocked down, for two feats that were vague due to the written word.

Without errata (which they have stated they aren't going to put out) it doesn't clarify anything, it makes things worse! Now you have to question any ability with the word "Knocked Down" on it and see if the precedent of an unwritten rule will hold up.

As Drach said, a model that is knocked down can not be knocked down again, that was ruled under the feat quoted by PR and Kaya in that thread.

So, Barnabus's feat turn got a nerf. It's ok. Like I said, it won't effect a ton of my games. I question why it was nerfed. Was Barnabus too hard core? Should the wording have been changed during play testing of the Swamp Horror and issued with the last errata? Are they going to continue to make up stuff without a foundation in the rules "because they say so"?

What's next? Will the ruling on Rise change so that the model still needs to forfiet something? I mean, Rise has won me a bunch of games, including a turn two caster kill against a PP staff member who joked he was going to get it nerfed. Will it get the axe?

It's a bad ruling. There are many things in the game that are just as "disgusting" as the Swamp Horro under one turn with one caster.

**Mod_Redphantasm** · 02-23-2012, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Jestor

Without errata (which they have stated they aren't going to put out) it doesn't clarify anything, it makes things worse! Now you have to question any ability with the word "Knocked Down" on it and see if the precedent of an unwritten rule will hold up.

As Drach said, a model that is knocked down can not be knocked down again, that was ruled under the feat quoted by PR and Kaya in that thread.

So, Barnabus's feat turn got a nerf. It's ok. Like I said, it won't effect a ton of my games. I question why it was nerfed. Was Barnabus too hard core? Should the wording have been changed during play testing of the Swamp Horror and issued with the last errata? Are they going to continue to make up stuff without a foundation in the rules "because they say so"?

What's next? Will the ruling on Rise change so that the model still needs to forfiet something? I mean, Rise has won me a bunch of games, including a turn two caster kill against a PP staff member who joked he was going to get it nerfed. Will it get the axe?

It's a bad ruling. There are many things in the game that are just as "disgusting" as the Swamp Horro under one turn with one caster.

You're assuming it was done specifically to affect one warlock or tactic. It was a ruling (and a quick one at that) clarifying the wording of shallow water.

**Jestor** · 02-23-2012, 07:27 AM

I appreciate the candor but, as I pointed out before on my blog and in several posts on the forums, it specifically changes one warlock's feat but pretty much has no bearing on the rest of the game.

**Creaux** · 02-23-2012, 07:30 AM

It's based off of the same word structure that is in Cassius' feat, and I'm happy that this game keeps the meaning behind the same word structure the same. If anything, a future errata might change the structure on one or the other of these rules' wordings, making the knocked down bit work.

Was there ever a ruling on knocked down in water and shake effects?

**drachenfels** · 02-23-2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Creaux

It's based off of the same word structure that is in Cassius' feat, and I'm happy that this game keeps the meaning behind the same word structure the same. If anything, a future errata might change the structure on one or the other of these rules' wordings, making the knocked down bit work.

Was there ever a ruling on knocked down in water and shake effects?

i believe so... you can shake to stand the jack up, but cant shake the stationary until the warrior model portion is fulfilled first if i recall

**Siphoned Core** · 02-23-2012, 07:41 AM

But the Cassius' feat thread that they based it on was from 2010 and many erratas were made that they could update on it. Right? Surely they could have changed it with the recent errata or the one before? Why do they have to nerf it now?

**Mod_Redphantasm** · 02-23-2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Jestor

I appreciate the candor but, as I pointed out before on my blog and in several posts on the forums, it specifically changes one warlock's feat but pretty much has no bearing on the rest of the game.

It changes one tactic of one warlock's feat turn, and does have bearing on the rest of the game. Other warcasters/warlocks cannot create shallow water like Banabas can but shallow water terrain exists, and plenty of other factions have access to pushes and knockdowns (sometimes on the same attack). Retribution battle mages, circle druids and cygnar gun makes to name a few.

**Mod_Faultie** · 02-23-2012, 08:43 AM

It really just changes the order of activation. You put the water down, then you Slam them (because you're KD'd at the end of the Slam movement).

**drachenfels** · 02-23-2012, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mod_Faultie

Obviously this quote was taken out of context. :P

swamp pits are not upkeeps so they disappear before barnies activation, and he cant place them touching any models so he can't place them under jacks then feat.

**Jestor** · 02-23-2012, 09:24 AM

Are there two mods trolling me right now or do you guys really not know how the game works? In SR2012 you need to make sure terrain is even for both players. Do you know any organizers that will put two water features on the same table?

No?

Right, back to the point where it is only a nerf to Barnabus, on his feat turn. Period.

**Vicomte Athos** · 02-23-2012, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mod_Redphantasm

. . . but shallow water terrain exists. . .

This is a fallacy. If you put water down on table with a warmachine player they pick their models up and play someone else. Barnabus is the only caster that this effects. As a hordes player you have to understand that if you want to actually play a warmachine player that you will NEVER see water that you don't create yourself.

**McNs** · 02-23-2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Jestor

Without errata (which they have stated they aren't going to put out) it doesn't clarify anything, it makes things worse! Now you have to question any ability with the word "Knocked Down" on it and see if the precedent of an unwritten rule will hold up.

As Drach said, a model that is knocked down can not be knocked down again, that was ruled under the feat quoted by PR and Kaya in that thread.

Ahhh... yeah, sorry. Totally missed that one.

Probably a question for the rules forum, but since a Throw model "is knocked down" by the throw, does that meet the qualifier extinguishing its cortex despite the fact that it can't actually reach the "knocked down" state? I'm guessing its still excluded since it can't reach the final state of being knocked down, but its an interesting question (though, technically, if that was allowed you'd also be able to put out Steady warjacks, so I'm guess that's out).

Since there's a few rules/mod folks in here: Can we get a global clarification on "Knocked Down" the state and "is Knocked Down", the act of achieving the state of Knocked Down?

**drachenfels** · 02-23-2012, 10:00 AM

a model that is knocked down can't "become" knocked down since it already is so no throwing knocked down stuff into water to out it out.
and steady models can't "become" knocked down so their furnace will never be extinguished

**bodare** · 02-23-2012, 10:18 AM

....make warbeasts drown and I'll vote to keep it

**perilsensitive** · 02-23-2012, 10:35 AM

I don't mind the Knocked Down ruling, but why couldn't they also just errata Shallow Water to say that if a jack is in Shallow Water while in a Knocked Down state, the boiler goes out?

**Beckman** · 02-23-2012, 10:45 AM

I just think this is a stupid ruling. It:
1) Makes no sense and requires suspension of disbelief.
2) is counterintuitive. How are you REALLY going to think to look this up....
3) Even if you DO know this ruling, it requires you to ALSO know that you can't knockdown an already knocked down model. Which is 7 kinds of stupid. Quick! Knockdown your own model before he does, so that he can't throw it into a pit!

OK, so Swamp Horrors pulling models into a pit and putting their pilot light out is really silly. What this ruling is going to do is worse: it creates confusion about the rules and make people feel like they can't predict what random ruling is going to pop out of the woodwork, not make any sense and mess with their army.

For the record, I don't mind nerfs. If they were like, "Hey, we've decided to errata pilot lights going out into oblivion. It no longer happens. Yay!" That would be way more understandable and less stupid than rulings that make no sense like this one.

**Vicomte Athos** · 02-23-2012, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Beckman

3) Even if you DO know this ruling, it requires you to ALSO know that you can't knockdown an already knocked down model. Which is 7 kinds of stupid. Quick! Knockdown your own model before he does, so that he can't throw it into a pit!

Just FYI, I've had people do this against Barnabus so that I can't slam/throw them into water.

**Beckman** · 02-23-2012, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Vicomte Athos

Just FYI, I've had people do this against Barnabus so that I can't slam/throw them into water.

Right. Which is idiotic that it works.

**thag-rush** · 02-23-2012, 10:54 AM

If that's legal, it's actually pretty ingenious. More often than not, the def of the jack is negligible so hitting is often a given.

If you know the potential bath is coming, that's a great way to avoid it. I hope people in my group don't discover this.

**bouncymischa** · 02-23-2012, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Jestor

Are there two mods trolling me right now or do you guys really not know how the game works? In SR2012 you need to make sure terrain is even for both players. Do you know any organizers that will put two water features on the same table?

No?

Right, back to the point where it is only a nerf to Barnabus, on his feat turn. Period.

Originally Posted by Vicomte Athos

This is a fallacy. If you put water down on table with a warmachine player they pick their models up and play someone else. Barnabus is the only caster that this effects. As a hordes player you have to understand that if you want to actually play a warmachine player that you will NEVER see water that you don't create yourself.

Now I'm starting to feel sorry for all those Warmachine players that have Amphibious on their models, because apparently they never get to use them. They're paying for abilities they'll never get to use!

It's so tragic...

**Rosencrantz247** · 02-23-2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by bouncymischa

Now I'm starting to feel sorry for all those Warmachine players that have Amphibious on their models, because apparently they never get to use them. They're paying for abilities they'll never get to use!

It's so tragic...

My Leviathans see your sarcasm and raise you the truth.

**Beckman** · 02-23-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz247

My Leviathans see your sarcasm and raise you the truth.

pshhh, this is hogwash. Shallow water is on 1-2 tables in every tournament that I go to. And tables are assigned randomly.

**Jestor** · 02-23-2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mod_Faultie

It really just changes the order of activation. You put the water down, then you Slam them (because you're KD'd at the end of the Slam movement).

You can not move a model with a slam that has been knocked down. Try again

The only real thing it effects is Barnabus's feat and interactions between models in his army during his feat turn.

I guess one could make the distiction that players may not shake the Knocked Down effect from jacks who are near objectives so they don't get extiguished but that's really pushing it...

**mortal** · 02-23-2012, 01:33 PM

Then he closed the thread so he wouldn't be argued with anymore. Great tactic for winning an argument that....

**Cannotcope** · 02-23-2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by HoodooDoll

jack spamming lists.

Wut?

No seriously, if the forums are to be believed (Focus vs Fury, Fixing Focus, Incentivising Jacks, etc...) no serious player ever takes more than 1-2 jacks (2 in the case of the Avatar, where you still have jack points to spend) except in joke lists...

**ColdYinTiger** · 02-23-2012, 01:48 PM

I think Faultie primarily meant that you can still put out the steam engines by slamming them into the water rather than moving around an already knocked down model.

As for the ruling change, it probably needs an errata simply for clarity.

I have played plenty of games with water and already as a feature, though I have noticed plenty of non privateer/cryx players of warmachine seem to groan at any point water gets placed. Ignoring the fact that everything is knocked down, you are forcing the other player to burn through their focus just to stand up their jacks. If you want to put out the pilot light, then just slam them into the swamp pit behind the model. I will say that if you play privateers or blindwater against warmachine, you will get many dirty looks by putting down terrain features that involve anything water.

**drachenfels** · 02-23-2012, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by mortal

Then he closed the thread so he wouldn't be argued with anymore. Great tactic for winning an argument that....

Don't know what you mean by this.... both of the threads i linked to were in the Rules forum and after a question has been answered they get locked as per the rules of that forum. there is no dispute to the rulings once they are made, but if you wish you can PM the infernal/mod to clarify or ask further questions about their decision.

**mortal** · 02-23-2012, 02:03 PM

Ah, didn't realize that was the standard, i recant.

**JohnOSpencer** · 02-23-2012, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Vicomte Athos

This is a fallacy. If you put water down on table with a warmachine player they pick their models up and play someone else. Barnabus is the only caster that this effects. As a hordes player you have to understand that if you want to actually play a warmachine player that you will NEVER see water that you don't create yourself.

This is pretty much false. As a (mostly) Warmachine player, I have no problem playing on a table with a water feature on it. Heck, if i'm setting up terrain i'll even put down a water feature myself. Our tournaments have been know to have the odd water feature on tables. I'm not saying it's common, but it happens.

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