Considering Forge Guard over other Cygnar infantry

[polypusher]

Any thoughts on replacing Sword Knights with Forge Guard? I have been sad about the lack of Weapon Masters in Cygnar and discovered these armored dwarfy badasses. I like Sword knights, they get to play weapon master situationally with Flank but I'm curious about other options.

I don't own any of the Stormnoun infantry yet and I'm not sure which direction to go. I play a bunch of warcasters, havent really stuck to one. Kraye, pNemo and Siege are the most recent. For the point-cost, I think high armor, reach, weaponmasters will do more for me than the other options.

[Brettman008]

Any thoughts on replacing Sword Knights with Forge Guard? I have been sad about the lack of Weapon Masters in Cygnar and discovered these armored dwarfy badasses. I like Sword knights, they get to play weapon master situationally with Flank but I'm curious about other options.

I don't own any of the Stormnoun infantry yet and I'm not sure which direction to go. I play a bunch of warcasters, havent really stuck to one. Kraye, pNemo and Siege are the most recent. For the point-cost, I think high armor, reach, weaponmasters will do more for me than the other options.

Forge Guard are great for Cygnar but they are not front line infantry. Even at ARM 21 they will die to most charge attacks. They're better used as a second line unit behind Steelheads or Stormguard. If you are going to put them out front you may want to consider protecting them with a Cyclone.

[polypusher]

Base Arm 16, 18 in B2B is higher than anything else I can see Cygnar getting access to. If that's not front line infantry, then Cygnar just doesn't have any. I dont see much in the game that's higher outside of Khador.

I tend to position small base reach models like Nihilators for denial. Put 2 or 3 several inches out-front of the rest as 'come and get me if it's worth it' bait. If they take them, my counter-charge is devastating. If they ignore them and charge past (dumb) there's excellent free-strikes. Have to do something else vs ranged of course, but that has worked really well for Nihilators and their low armor+my failed tough rolls.

[Bladestorm]

Forge Guard are a great unit, with reliable damage output against hard targets, some modest innate survivability and a low points cost.

They really don't serve as a primarily front line unit partly because:
Low DEF somewhat counters there high ARM by ensuring just about every shot hits to try and roll over it.
The need to bunch up to get the ARM makes them better targets for sprays, corrosion/fire/everything takes x aoes etc.
There low SPD means they either have to hang back as counter-charge or barrel straight at a target - which leaves little room for jockeying for position.

I suppose in summary: They are a hammer, a sturdy, powerful hammer with an attractive cost. While they can get in the way sometimes they are still not a shield.

[shaner]

From what I have been told, they are stupidly slow unless you have a caster that can augment their spd. The bonus with SKs is their spd 6. Put Roonie in there and you have a 3" reform move...Holy Snappin!...

I personally like the FG. That reach and wpn master are great bonuses. That being said, with flank sks are essentially wpn masters that are more accurate hitters (+2 from flank). They can also get where you NEED them to be. My buddy uses FG with Ashlynn all the time for the speed buff. Not sure if we have a caster that can buff a unit's speed. Lots of folks have also suggested PKs to me to use with Siege and pHaley. They are a little out-paced by the by FG if they want to use Shieldwall.

All in all, I think FG would be a good investment regardless. I plan on buying a unit myself.

[scout's honor]

Base Arm 16, 18 in B2B is higher than anything else I can see Cygnar getting access to. If that's not front line infantry, then Cygnar just doesn't have any.

High ARM isn't the be-all end-all of frontline infantry. I consider high DEF just as valuable, and threat range even more so. Stealth can help as well. It all comes down to what your opponent can bring against it.

Considering Forgeguard specifically, their low SPD is quite limiting if you insist on keeping most of your army behind them. Not necessarily catastrophic in caster kill games, although it's still a disadvantage, but if you have all of your army plodding along at their pace in a scenario game it'll often have you fighting an uphill battle for no good reason.

[Temoinlanuit]

Slow and highly unattractive for most casters in SR2012 IMO. Can't create space on the critical first two turns.

People obsess about threat ranges a lot, and raw threat range is of course superior to many units.. but low speed is just as much of a deal breaker.

A separate front line would be needed.

[Halfhoot]

Yea as far as front line infantry go I prefer to rely on not being hit over not being damaged. For instance... Widowmakers will super easily kill half a unit of forgeguard in one turn. Then again they'll do that to just about any melee infantry we have access to outside of Nyss and a caster with Blur or Boomhowler with luck on your side.

I keep being very tempted to buy the forgeguard though... they look like excellent backup beatsticks that don't need as much support as Stormblades.

[Temoinlanuit]

Hmm.. not seeing it. PS15 > PS11WM, unless ARM is insanely high.

A bit more threat, perhaps, but defensive stats are comparable, and as a counter-charge / second line unit, they seem to fit a similar role otherwise..

Can you elaborate your thoughts?

[DemonCalibre]

Widowmakers are in a single faction though, Most factions can't field a ton of snipers other then Khador, and Gun Mages eat Widowmakers for breakfast. It's one of those situations where you have to manage your positioning to keep them getting croaked.

The armor 21 on all sides is pretty nice, it means they don't to common anti-infantry stuff, and they don't die to fire. Which means your opponent needs to fight them in hand to hand, or have access to corrosion.

I am not sure how bad the speed is the killer, while I am worried about it, if I do not go first, I find I don't flat out run my units two turns in a row, which means if I flat out run the Forge Guard, they can keep up. if I go first I also generally don't flat out run if they have AD(And they should) so again they can keep up.

The killer is the bad threat range, if your playing with a caster who can lock down the opponent to bridge combat for them then it's great(Haley, eHaley, pStryker, etc), if you can't they are dead meat.

[Bladestorm]

Reach really is a big deal, I've had a fair few situations where I could only get two models within .5" but I have been able to get another 3-5 within 2" to swing past the first two at the target, wrecking it.

P+S11WM only averages out 0.5 less than P+S15, whilst the occasional extra dice on the primary and extra damage roll on a second model that was slammed into plus some knockdowns can help make up for it anyway.

I wouldn't call the defensive stats comparable to stormblades either - DEF 10 is worse than DEF 12 but both are poor, whilst ARM 18 is notably better than ARM 15. Toss in the extra two guys that you get for 8 points and I'd say the Forge Guard have a clear advantage here.

[Rolling_Thunder]

PS11 weaponmasters are slightly lower damage, but the reach means you get them all in. and armor 18 with no help makes them very tough for a lot of shooting, add in deceleration or arcane shield and they really put blades to shame in the survivability category.

Both units are wave 2, and that's what you have to remember when fielding forgies

[Halfhoot]

Hmm.. not seeing it. PS15 > PS11WM, unless ARM is insanely high.

A bit more threat, perhaps, but defensive stats are comparable, and as a counter-charge / second line unit, they seem to fit a similar role otherwise..

Can you elaborate your thoughts?

I think you misread my post... as this actually doesn't make any sense as a reply to it... are you saying they aren't or are comparable? I'm confused. Basically I said they fit a similar role to stormblades being a beatstick unit that does good damage and that they have a little better native armor and thus don't really need as much help against AOEs and small arms fire. Blades die to a power 10 shot on low averages... Forgeguard do not.

Basically a min unit of Forgeguard is like a min unit of Stormblades except they come with their own arcane shield attached and reach but lose the gun and one point of speed. Blades also always roll a 4 on their weapon master die and thus do on average a point higher damage. Still they are very similar in roles each with +s and -s over the other. I still think both are poor choices for front line units.

Even barring widowmakers any infantry with decent speed and power 10 will kill Forgeguard on a charge on less than average rolls. If we throw AS on them it takes p&s 11-12 to kill them on average rolls... and just about anything can hit them. Front line they are not. They do look like excellent second line models though!

[polypusher]

You guys keep saying they're wave 2 but with their stats and abilities, I dont see what can possibly be wave 1 in Cygnar besides a Centurion :P

[Halfhoot]

You guys keep saying they're wave 2 but with their stats and abilities, I dont see what can possibly be wave 1 in Cygnar besides a Centurion :P

Nyss. ATGM under eCaine. Sword Knights with Rhupert. Stormguard with AS due to set defense. Steelhead Halberdiers with Rhupert... especially with a caster with blur. Boomhowler. Precursors with Rhupert.

[Joasht]

One thing to also remember is that Reach not only extends threat range, but it also provides that extra area of coverage for free strikes. Seems like an unimportant thing to mention somewhat as I seem to see people translate Reach into nothing more than +1.5" threat range, but I personally think its pretty important.

That said, I just got a full unit of them myself, I'd be using them in lieu of SBs when I'm not taking stuff like eStryker and/or Stormclad. Planning to use them together with Boomhowler & co. with the trolls as the front line, probably with some support (Jr and/or Piper) to make an uncharacteristically tough Cygnar army. Frankly even if I took Jr + Piper + max Boomies + max Forgeguard it still leaves me some good space for jacks and support.

[Halfhoot]

Think of it this way... Sword Knights not even utilizing flank can easily kill a Forgeguard on below average rolls on a charge needing 4 to hit on 2 dice and 9 to kill on 3 dice. If they tried that against a Steelhead Halberdier they'd need 9's to hit (not even including Rhupert).

[DemonCalibre]

Think of it this way... Sword Knights not even utilizing flank can easily kill a Forgeguard on below average rolls on a charge needing 4 to hit on 2 dice and 9 to kill on 3 dice. If they tried that against a Steelhead Halberdier they'd need 9's to hit (not even including Rhupert).

On the other hand, MHSF, WGRC, WGI, Gun Mages, Rangers, Errants, Reivers, Storm Smiths, and any blast weapon worth it's salt, crush Steel Heads, and do little to Forge Guard.

Defense is better against hand to hand, armor is better as a rule against shooting(as most shooting units people tend to bring are very accurate, or ignore some portion of the defense mechanics). If my Infantry is getting folded up in hand to hand, they have either charged and done their job, I have seriously misplayed and allowed my opponent to get the drop on me, or I have made the deliberate choice to get them into combat, and I have some plan to deal with the causalities.

Guns on the other hand are much harder to avoid.

[polypusher]

I am leaning toward getting a box and trying it out. There's a lot going for them and it's throwing a different look at my opponents.

They look awesome
Reach
Weapon Masters
Inexpensive
Jonas lets their ranked-attack work within the faction, so my Cyclone or some gun mages can sit behind them and poke away.

I think they can deny a heck of a lot of space too. If you position a pair in 'go ahead and charge me' position ahead of the unit, they can cover more than 12 inches of space across with their melee range (You can basically draw 5.5 inch line from one edge of their melee range to the other, stick the other about an inch away so there's not a big enough gap to slip through). No one would take the free strikes by moving through them and they'd waste a turn killing them.

[Temoinlanuit]

I think you misread my post... as this actually doesn't make any sense as a reply to it... are you saying they aren't or are comparable? I'm confused. Basically I said they fit a similar role to stormblades being a beatstick unit that does good damage and that they have a little better native armor and thus don't really need as much help against AOEs and small arms fire. Blades die to a power 10 shot on low averages... Forgeguard do not.

Basically a min unit of Forgeguard is like a min unit of Stormblades except they come with their own arcane shield attached and reach but lose the gun and one point of speed. Blades also always roll a 4 on their weapon master die and thus do on average a point higher damage. Still they are very similar in roles each with +s and -s over the other. I still think both are poor choices for front line units.

Even barring widowmakers any infantry with decent speed and power 10 will kill Forgeguard on a charge on less than average rolls. If we throw AS on them it takes p&s 11-12 to kill them on average rolls... and just about anything can hit them. Front line they are not. They do look like excellent second line models though!

No, I think I understood your post.

I agree that they fit the same role and are similar in many respects.. I just don't think they need materially less support, is all. Unsupported, both perform roughly the same, with Stormblades getting the edge in output (+4 vs +3.5/volatility) and guard getting the edge vs. POW10 shots.

So yeah, we think agree on the raw facts, I think it's just a difference in valuation. To me, the difference in support needed isn't material enough to point to guard as tempting choice, that's all.

[scout's honor]

Jonas lets their ranked-attack work within the faction, so my Cyclone or some gun mages can sit behind them and poke away.

Is this correct? I though ROs made a merc unit count as faction models, but any faction-related abilities they have originally stay merc-based.

[polypusher]

I can't say for sure, but Battle College suggests the ranked attacks will work.

[vintersbastard]

Is this correct? I though ROs made a merc unit count as faction models, but any faction-related abilities they have originally stay merc-based.

The only rule that keeps referencing mercenary as a faction is jack marshalling. Every other faction rule references the RO's faction instead.

[Blugger]

Your front line could just consist of a cyclone's covering fire template

Unless you're facing select heavies with berserk or thresher (and sending heavies at forgeguard without a guarantee that enough will be dead to not pose a threat is a very very bad idea) or a battle engine, the only things that are going to generate enough attacks on a charge to threaten forgies will be single box infantry. They're already effectively immune to blast damage thanks to their ARM, and any buff is going to make them effectively immune to any kind of shooting that isn't reduced to pinging one man out of a ten man unit per turn.

They'll still fall to select counters such as corrosion or sniper, though, so don't mistake their durability for invincibility.

Apart from that, forgies are probably the best option to field ragman with. Reach is essential when using his death shroud, they're more than slow enough for his aura to keep pace with, and I know everyone here wants to field a cygnarian option that hits as hard as bane thralls.

SPD is a bit of a problem, but we are by no means very special when it comes to getting the melee alpha strike, unless you're taking specialized casters like the Haleys or Kraye (arguably eNemo and Constance).

[SillySod]

You guys keep saying they're wave 2 but with their stats and abilities, I dont see what can possibly be wave 1 in Cygnar besides a Centurion :P

It completely depends what you are trying to do but...
- anything cheap (sword knights, halberds)
- anything fast (storm lances ftw)
- ranged models (anything primarily shooty can be a solid frontline model)
- AD helps

The reason that ranged models can make great frontline infantry is that they have a big threat range and more or less force your opponent to attempt to engage them... which is where second wave infantry comes in. Anything attempting to engage that front wave also positioned themselves to take a countercharge from your forge guard.

Rangers would be our premier frontline troops but they are so good at the role they outpace everything else and create a light skirmish screen ahead of the 2-wave structure (which has all kinds of advantages).

Again, it completely depends what you are trying to do. If you are pushing forwards and assaulting a position then you want fast things with huge threat ranges. If you are holding ground then you will be more concerned about forcing your opponent to commit.

[HERO]

I wish more of our casters have Quicken

[PeterO]

At least one would be appreciated ; )

I often use Stormguard as a front line unit. Thanks to set defense combined with Rhupert and his tough they are able to survive first wave.

But in general...we do not have real front line unit, like...let say BK. Instead we can increase ARM, deny charges or just shoot the first wave

[eKraye]

I feel like you guys are arguing that the forge guard are good or not based on the fact that they can die...
The real drawback with them is that they are slow as hell for our faction. They should be second line infantry.. I also agree with a way earlier post that mentioned precursors... I don't believe they have reach though, but the power swell type mini feat gives you weapon master when you need it. Stormblades are just meh... in my opinion. The 12/15 tells you to buff or die, and as far as being second line they are the second line for one turn... and then they are dead in a competent meta at least..

Not even the extra focus to the stormclad mitigates their cost... they charge once and die. At least for 8 points you get 10 forge guard with shieldwall (I don't even like shieldwall). for 8 points you get 8 SBs, 11 for 11 points... meh, I guess it's your preference honestly, I liked the stormblades until I used them. Now I don't use them

[VagrantPoet]

Forgeguard have defensive line, not shield wall, which is a very different mechanic. It has the advantage of running, and being able to get it after charges if you can. Not that Def 11, Arm 18 is great in melee.

[JPGREAT1]

There is quite of bit of misinformation here so I guess I'll try to debunk some...

First off, majority of our melee of Cygnar infantry are second wave units IE Stormblades, Sword Knights, and to some extent even Precursor Knights.

Now you may ask what makes a good front-line infantry unit. Well they have some strong defensive stats that make them tarpitish or they are VERY fast.

Unfortunately for Cygnar we don't have those options aside from the stormguard which even then 12/18 (14/18 on charge) is medicore at best as a defensive stat when something can easily shoot them and kill them with average roles. Now to get to the OP question... and as a user of Forgeguard... forgeguard are probably our best front line unit. Can they be used as second wave infantry units... Yes, do I prefer it that way no. Forgeguard are meant to do what Stormguards do and thats soak a charge, survive it, and retaliate. With the plethoria of buffs we have the forgeguard only become better. Plus remember this you either want extremely high defense on your models or high armor. I know and get why some people say Hi Def is better on infantry and Hi Arm is better on jacks but in my opinion anything 15 and over in DEF is GREAT and anything over ARM 20 and over is GREAT.

Now onto to do a unit by unit comparison

Forgeguard Full Unit 8 points. 10 Guys, ARM 16 (D-line ARM 18), POW 11 weaponmasters, and SPD 4 w/Reach (9 inch threat range).
Add in Murdoch

• 10 points
• 11 Guys (one with a rifle)
• Mini-Feat Dig in (+4 against range/magic attacks)
• Gained Ranked Attacks
• Become Infaction

Add in Rhupert

• Tough/Fearless
• +1 DEF/Terror
• Path-finder

Give them the available buffs we have

• Arcane Shield +3 ARM ( 21 ARM )
• eHaley Deceleration (+2 DEF/ARM against Ranged attacks)
• eStrykers Deflection (+2 ARM against spells/range attacks)
• Siege's Foxhole (Cover)
• Blur (DEF 13)

The only other option we have that can compete to this is boomhowler whose 9 point unit (11 with murdoch), who has access to 4,5,6 tough, -2 to atk, and medium base but has mediocre offensive stats. You can also compare the Nyss who are ridiculously fast and with DEF 15 but remember they die to any stray AOES...

All our other infaction units can't even compare with the survivability of the forgeguard.

[cannonball]

I like the FG as a mop up second wave and/or bodyguard for weaker casters like Sloan or Nemo. You know with Sloan or Nemo one of your opponents options is to get to them asap. Thankfully the FG's low SPD won't be too much of an issue here as they'll be coming to you. This is where Reach and Weapon master with a good MAT score helps a heap.

[VagrantPoet]

ARM cannot save you from a charge. That's why its a bad mechanic for one wound infantry who are likely to soak the charge. Most melee weapons are pow 11-12 at least. On the charge that's 22+ 50% of the time. Any higher than that and the unit dissappears. This argument completely changes on models with wounds. As they are often fewer and thus more easily knocked down and so on. However high def heavies are still one of the games hardest things to kill if they can't be knocked down. Angelius' with tenacity are stupid. And can kill most casters or underwhelming protected heavies. (12/18, dammit Cygnar engineeers!).

So the forgeguard still require tough and AS to be a good first wave. They then also have to stay clumped together for the likes of vanquisher fire templates, etc.

They're also speed 4.

Weaponmasters aren't a good first wave. Forgeguard are more effortlessly protected from stray gun fire behind the lines though, and have a slightly longer counter charge. Unless your using the assault and have already really softened up that low arm heavy. (Which Cygnar can absolutely do).

[JPGREAT1]

double post fail

[JPGREAT1]

@VagrantPoet - I do not know what behind the lines army you are playing or how you allow someone to completely get behind you but if you are going to compare FG to Centari then ofcourse Centari are helluvalot better. But when you compare them to what we have they are one of our if not our best front line troops. With any buff which I did mention most in my last post you can put on them they become a defensive tarpit that my enemy has to deal with. Mathematically speaking a MAT 7 will hit a DEF 14 58% of the time while POW 9 through 12 charge attack will kill off a FG maybe 30 to 49% of the time. Now my math may be slightly off but my high armored dwarves just soaked the charge and still have maybe 5 to 6 of them alive while guys like stormguard and maybe even steelheads are dead with same buffs have 3 to 4 of them alive.

Also, anything high defense shouldn't be a problem to us... we are FREAKEN cygnar! Average MAT/RAT 7 to 8s with infaction +2 to range attacks and deadeye out the boocoos! While I agree our defensive stats on our warjacks suck we have access to a plethoria of good jacks for almost every situation.