Can a Circle warlock lay down multiple Wild Growths from the Woldwarden's animus?

[Ruan]

Basically, as the title says. More specifically...

Can a Circle warlock lay down multiple Wild Growths from the Woldwarden's animus and have all of the forest AoEs remain in play?

There's no question that a Circle warlock can cast multiple Wild Growths. The question is, if a Circle warlock say, cast Wild Growth, moved, and then cast Wild Growth again, would the first AoE template stay in play?

---

Going into a little more depth for completeness sake, as I want to definitively get this straight for the Circle FAQ... it currently says that a warlock can drop multiple Wild Growths as I had heard that was possible, but had not actually stopped to think of the ramifications of all the rules interactions. Now that I stop to think about it, I think that is incorrect.

Animi/spells with range "Self" are, in fact, "on" the model casting/using them.

Based off of this ruling, and other similar discussions, if a Woldwarden had Lightning Strike on it and then tried to use Wild Growth, Lightning Strike would then go away, as the Woldwarden's animus is range 'Self' - Wild Growth affects the Woldwarden, you can only be affected by one friendly animus at a time, Lightning Strike goes away. Similarly, if for instance a Woldwarden Wild Growthed, moved away from the spot it did it, then had another animus put on it (say, Earth's Blessing), the Wild Growth (despite being nowhere near the Woldwarden now) would still go away, as Wild Growth is still 'affecting' the same model. Finally, an individual warbeast can only cast its' animus once per turn, so there's no question of 'drop Wild Growth, move, drop Wild Growth'.

Now, the more important interaction here:

Circle warlocks, unlike warbeasts, can cast the same animi multiple times. However, they can not be affected by more than one friendly animus at a time. This is fairly simple for saying something like, no Earth's Blessing and Flesh of Clay on a warlock at the same time.

However, given this, what happens when it's the same animus, by the same name and effect, that has an effect of 'dropping' an AoE?

My understanding is that:

a) Wild Growth, despite 'dropping' the AoE, still affects the caster as a normal 'Self' animus would

b) there is no stacking of the same name/same effect, then a warlock could cast Wild Growth before moving, and then after moving... but by doing so, the first Wild Growth prior to moving would go away, thus preventing a warlock from putting down multiple Wild Growths.

Is this interpretation of the rules correct?

[Crate123]

I interpret it the same way you do, no multiple Wild Growths from the same Warlock.

[sleet01]

I think this is incorrect. If the AOE were an upkeep, then yes, the first instance would expire, but once the animus has been cast the warlock is no longer affected by it; there is no effect on the warlock to prevent stacking of. Put another way, if this spell were RNG Control, there would be no question that a warlock could cast it multiple times and have multiple AOEs in effect as there are spells that already do this. The RNG SELF in this case is simply for restricting the placement position of the AOE and not indicative that it is a continuous effect on the caster.

[poeticruse]

Please be careful to note that Valander was not an infernal when he wrote that response.

I don't have an answer immediately to this question, as I need to research it, but Valander's answers have only been official since about September, 2011.

[solkan]

I just think it's odd that the original poster is taking a quote from Valander and reaching a completely different conclusion than the original thread did.

The animus is cast and targets the model, but the forest AOE is not an affect on the model, any more than a "lasts for one round" AOE on an offensive spell is an affect on the target model.

Edit: Didn't see poeticruse's post before hitting submit. I don't mean to start an argument if this is already "counts as checking...".

[DemonCalibre]

The other importance of this delineation sleet, is if it is on the caster, and the one animus rule applies.

I can shoot the forest away with eEyriss, or purify it.

[sleet01]

Yeah, I was going to bring that up but didn't want to muddy the waters. It does make the initial hypothesis seem unlikely, though.

[poeticruse]

Edit: Didn't see poeticruse's post before hitting submit. I don't mean to start an argument if this is already "counts as checking...".

Nope, chat away. I just wanted to remove the possible 'infernal confusion'

[Ruan]

Please be careful to note that Valander was not an infernal when he wrote that response.

I don't have an answer immediately to this question, as I need to research it, but Valander's answers have only been official since about September, 2011.

Bah. Didn't realize that.

In that case, also take a look over at this thread, as that's another for the case of 'pulse' style animi causing 'buff' style animi to disappear.

We really do need a solid ruling on both the laying down of multiple Wild Growths, as well as clarifying whether or not Wild Growth causes Lightning Strike to fade, in that case.

Thanks for looking into it.

[Macallan]

The ADE does not move but the animus was cast on "self" therefore it counts as being on the model for stacking purpose.

[PG_LEJKaya]

EDIT: I was mistaken.

[solkan]

The ADE does not move but the animus was cast on "self" therefore it counts as being on the model for stacking purpose.

I think that answers half the question, the part about whether Wild Growth causes Lightning Strike to fade. The remaining question is essentially whether the duration of Wild Growth is connected to the duration of the AOE forest.

Is the following sequence correct?

1. Model casts Wild Growth.
2. By necessity, the animus targets the casting model, and after being cast is now "on" the target model.
3. The next step is to place the AOE forest.
4. Now that all of the effects of Wild Growth are resolved, Wild Growth expires.
5. At this point, there is no animus on the casting model; but there is an AOE forest on the table.

And a result, if another animus were cast on the model (whether it was Lightning Strike or another Wild Growth or etc.) that earlier Wild Growth is already over and the AOE forest would not be removed.

[jkl]

Bah. Didn't realize that.

In that case, also take a look over at this thread, as that's another for the case of 'pulse' style animi causing 'buff' style animi to disappear.

We really do need a solid ruling on both the laying down of multiple Wild Growths, as well as clarifying whether or not Wild Growth causes Lightning Strike to fade, in that case.

Thanks for looking into it.

Animus doesn't stack so old wild growth is removed, but the AOE remains. So wild growth can stack
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...dGrowth-Animus


Wild Growth will cause Lightning Strike to fade
http://http://privateerpressforums.c...g-older-animus

Cheers

[Macallan]

Now that all of the effects of Wild Growth are resolved, Wild Growth expires.

When you remove the AOE is when the animus expires.

[DemonCalibre]

So I can shoot it off with eEyriss if I hit the model that cast it.

And when I Purification, I have to clip the model that cast it, to remove it. If I cast it twice, the first once disappears.

Are all of these correct?

[SageofLodoss]

So I can shoot it off with eEyriss if I hit the model that cast it.

And when I Purification, I have to clip the model that cast it, to remove it. If I cast it twice, the first once disappears.

Are all of these correct?

Once the animus is cast, there is a disconnect between the animus being on the model and the AOE being on the table. They aren't connected anymore because the model can get up and leave while leaving the forest behind.

So no, I do not believe eEyriss can remove the forest by shooting the caster or Warden.

I'll need to re-look at Purify to see if it specifies models or just animi in general. If it says models then the disconnect means that, like with eEyriss, the animus 'goes away' but the AOE remains. If it says animi in general then the control area would need to touch the forest I think. But my memory seems to recall that purification says something to the effect of 'on models in control area.' I'll see when I get home.

[JosephKerr]

Simply put, does Wild Growth "last for one round" as opposed to just the AOE lasting for one round and Wild Growth "immediately ends" after the AOE is placed?
Since the only end condition of the effect is tied to the AOE I would assume the Animus lasts on the model casting it for the full duration and things like Eiryss would wipe it with a hit on the caster.

[PG_somnicide]

That can't be right. By that logic you would have to return a model moved by slip stream back if you cast tenacity.

[JosephKerr]

Slip Stream states that it "immediately ends" after the movement. That is one of the majour reasons I wonder about the timing of Wild Growth.

[SageofLodoss]

Slip Stream states that it "immediately ends" after the movement. That is one of the majour reasons I wonder about the timing of Wild Growth.

So you're thinking that if my caster lays down a forest with wild growth, walks 7 inches away, and then casts Winter Coat, that the AOE would disappear? Sounds iffy.

[TravR]

When you remove the AOE is when the animus expires.

I am still a little foggy on the correct way to handle this and the follow on debate has not really done much to clear this up. Is the inverse of your above statement also true, when the animus expires do you remove the AOE?

[Geekly]

Per the ruling, the animus lasts as long as the AOE is in effect. The result is that only one AOE can be in effect at a time and if you cast another animus on the model, the forest AOE goes away. So, no pooping out forests across the board.

[Vex]

Per the ruling, the animus lasts as long as the AOE is in effect. The result is that only one AOE can be in effect at a time and if you cast another animus on the model, the forest AOE goes away. So, no pooping out forests across the board.

That is NOT the ruling that was made in this thread. When cast, the animus will overwrite any existing animus, and the AOE stays. So, you CAN spam multiple forests if you have the fury to do so. However, creating a forest will remove any existing animus on the model.

[DemonCalibre]

That isn't the ruling at at all Vex.

The only thing Mac told us, is it counts as an Animus for stacking purposes(so it will wipe off Lightning strike etc).

He did not clarify. What the Wild Growth Buff does and how it's connected to the template. Reading things as a TO, the Forest and the Wild Growth Buff are connected, because otherwise the Forest would never leave the table as the AOE doesn't have a duration Wild Growth Does. Which means the Forest and the Buff are connected which means the forest vanishes if I throw another Animus on the model that cast it, and the first one goes away, if I recast it, but I can see how this might not be intended.

We do know that Wild Growth is not an instantaneous animus, why? because it tells us it lasts a round, so "Wild Growth" remains for a round, the problem is we don't precisely know what that means.

[SageofLodoss]

That isn't the ruling at at all Vex.

The only thing Mac told us, is it counts as an Animus for stacking purposes(so it will wipe off Lightning strike etc).

He did not clarify. What the Wild Growth Buff does and how it's connected to the template. Reading things as a TO, the Forest and the Wild Growth Buff are connected, because otherwise the Forest would never leave the table as the AOE doesn't have a duration Wild Growth Does. Which means the Forest and the Buff are connected which means the forest vanishes if I throw another Animus on the model that cast it, and the first one goes away, if I recast it, but I can see how this might not be intended.

We do know that Wild Growth is not an instantaneous animus, why? because it tells us it lasts a round, so "Wild Growth" remains for a round, the problem is we don't precisely know what that means.

Incorrect I believe. Last I checked Wild Growth, the animus "Wild Growth" had no duration, but the AOE had a specified duration. So it's the opposite of what you're thinking.

[Vex]

What the Wild Growth Buff does and how it's connected to the template. Reading things as a TO, the Forest and the Wild Growth Buff are connected, because otherwise the Forest would never leave the table as the AOE doesn't have a duration Wild Growth Does. Which means the Forest and the Buff are connected which means the forest vanishes if I throw another Animus on the model that cast it, and the first one goes away, if I recast it, but I can see how this might not be intended.

Wild Growth - "The AOE is a forest that remains in play for one round."

[Geekly]

This is the ruling I'm referring to, not the response higher up in the thread.

When you remove the AOE is when the animus expires.

Help me understand what this means then, if it doesn't mean the animus is "in effect" as long as the AOE is in play. To me, this implies that the Animus and the AOE are connected. As long as the forest is in play, the Animus is in effect and vice versus. Am I reading too much into it? If so, it needs more clarification.

I used to think it worked like SageofLodoss stated, but this seems to imply a different working.

[DemonCalibre]

Wild Growth - "The AOE is a forest that remains in play for one round."

I retract my previous comments.

Geekly from my previous experiances with Mac, the statement you quoted means exactly what it says it means. Which is when the AOE expires, the Animus Wild Growth also expires.

We can not presume the converse is true.Which is that when the animus expires that the forest expires.

[Crate123]

I PM'ed Valander and he said he would clarify with Macallan so lets hope they get back to us fast.

[Geekly]

That still implies that the Animus is in effect until the AOE goes away. Since you can only have one Animus, you can only have one forest. Again, I'm not saying I like that it works this way, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the ruling.

[Macallan]

When I say "A is B", are you going to ask if the "reverse" is also true? A is B means that A is B and yes the reverse is true "B is A".
"when the AOE expires is when the animus expires." Both part of the sentence are equivalent.

[DemonCalibre]

So when I cast Wild Growth, I get the Wild Growth Animus on myself(because the Animus is called Wild Growth, and it targets self), I put the forest on the board.

When the forest expires the animus expires(normally in one round), but if the Animus were to expire for any reason off the model with the Wild Growth Animus. Say the model getting clipped by Purification, or Cleansing Aura, or getting shot by eEyriss, the Forest would expire, because the animus was removed by the model that cast it?

I am asking just for absolute clarity, this is my understanding of how the ability works(That Wild Growth casts a buff that is on the model). I could be misunderstanding so I just want to make absolutely sure before I start handing down rulings at my events.(Particularly after my previous Gaffe)

[Crate123]

So when I cast Wild Growth, I get the Wild Growth Animus on myself(because the Animus is called Wild Growth, and it targets self), I put the forest on the board.

When the forest expires the animus expires(normally in one round), but if the Animus were to expire for any reason off the model with the Wild Growth Animus. Say the model getting clipped by Purification, or Cleansing Aura, or getting shot by eEyriss, the Forest would expire, because the animus was removed by the model that cast it?

I am asking just for absolute clarity, this is my understanding of how the ability works(That Wild Growth casts a buff that is on the model). I could be misunderstanding so I just want to make absolutely sure before I start handing down rulings at my events.(Particularly after my previous Gaffe)

Thats definately what I understand the ruling to be. No multiple forests or casting a new animus on the warlock after putting up the forest.

[Walter]

I dunno, there is a lot of precedent for effects from an animus lingering after its over. Models placed by Slip Stream don't return to position when another model puts tenacity on the Slip Stream model. Models buffed by primal still frenzy next round even if you put lightning strike on them. I don't see anything to indicate that the board would return to normal when the caster dumps out another forest.

[DemonCalibre]

Walter, the slight difference is that Slip Stream isn't on the model it moves. For example if you move a model with tenacity on it with slip stream, it doesn't lose it because the model never has the Animus on it.

I don't really think the Slip Stream case applies here, because the movement from slip stream is a pulse it happens and it's done. Wild Growth could work the same way, except Mac told us it did not(His statement ties the expiration of the forest, to the expiration of the animus).

Primal also shouldn't be thought of, the reason it has after affects after it expires, is because it explicitly says that it does, so it doesn't really count as precedent.

The thing I really want clarity on, is the fact that I am right in thinking Wild Growth(The Animus) is a buff on the model that does it. Which is how it reads in the rules, but doesn't make intuitive sense, so I want to make absolutely sure.

[Geekly]

Collectively, I think we've established that if the forest expires, the animus also goes away. However, I'd still like to see confirmation about whether the forest leaves play if the animus is removed from the model that cast it. This is relevant if the model is dispelled, or if it has a new animus cast on it. The impact to the ability is pretty significant depending on how it rules.

[quindraco]

Collectively, I think we've established that if the forest expires, the animus is also goes away. However, I'd still like to see confirmation about whether the forest leaves play if the animus is removed from the model that cast it. This is relevant if the model is dispelled, or if it has a new animus cast on it. The impact to the ability is pretty significant depending on how it rules.

When you remove the AOE is when the animus expires.

When I say "A is B", are you going to ask if the "reverse" is also true? A is B means that A is B and yes the reverse is true "B is A".
"when the AOE expires is when the animus expires." Both part of the sentence are equivalent.

Macallan has already answered you.

[Geekly]

I know that he's responded, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that he's answered the question. I don't accept the statement that if "A is B" then "B is A" as an answer to the question, since that logic itself is inherently flawed.

[Valander]

I know that he's responded, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that he's answered the question. I don't accept the statement that if "A is B" then "B is A" as an answer to the question, since that logic itself is inherently flawed.

His original answer was:

When you remove the AOE is when the animus expires.

What the second reply means is, effectively:

When the animus expires remove the AOE.

[DarkLegacy]

I know that he's responded, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that he's answered the question. I don't accept the statement that if "A is B" then "B is A" as an answer to the question, since that logic itself is inherently flawed.

(A = B) != (B = A)? What? Math can't be wrong in this case.