Brand New Player w/ Hopeful List

[Zangetsu]

I am brand new to WARMACHINE and in love with Cryx.

I am trying to put together my first list and think that this is a great starting place for some helpful thoughts and directions. I am aiming at 35 points with options to go up or down one degree (i.e. 25 or 50)..

With that being said, here is what I came up with for 35...

Lich Lord Asphyxious (aka eGaspy)! - This mini sold me on Cryx
Deathjack - This 'jack sold me on WARMACHINE
Bane Lord Tartarus - Love his stats and what he does
10x Bane Knights - The coolest units in the game I think (next to the Thralls)
6x Bane Thralls - Super cool units and nasty as hell (pun intended)
UA Bane Thrall Officer and Standard Bearer - seemingly a must with the Bane Thralls plus gives them a few more in numbers
Withershadow Combine - I like things that come in threes and also prime numbers in general
Warwitch Siren - I like what she does, how she looks, and that she does what she does looking like she looks!

After doing a bunch of research, asking some questions, trolling a bit on the forums and playing with army builder this seemed like an appropriate starting list to play

I like the Deathjack a lot... I'm new to all of this, but the biggin' seems too hard to pass up.. Really, I love all the models, the tactics seem relatively pat, with a little aid from the Combine for range and some lure ability with the Siren for making fancy new 'jacks - I'm loving it! HOWEVER - I'm still new to this so input is more than appreciated, I am craving it!!

Thanks for your help and take care!

[Obeisance]

Welcome to the Nightmare Empire.

It looks like you've done your research. You've got 90% of the usual choices at 35pts. There's two things I'd have to say..

a) The Deathjack. He doesn't really belong in this sort of list at 35pts. I'd hold him until 50. You have to spend eGaspy's +6 warjack points. My choice would be a pair of Nightwretches (or Deathrippers, if you started with the battlebox).

b) Bile Thralls. With eGaspy, they're an auto-include. Coupled with the Nightwretches, it gives you greater ability to get Excarnate targets and vomit on unsuspecting infantry.

[Zangetsu]

'Oooh, a very helpful tidbit!! Thank you!

I understand how Excarnate works, in theory, but how about this "Purge" thing? Does it kill off the Bile Thralls when used? I remember reading that they're popular for tournament level builds and that's about it..

So taking out the Deathjack (sad face..) and the Warwitch Siren for the 35 point threshold in exchange for a pair of Nightwretches... I am left with only enough room for 6 Bile Thralls, is that enough? I read somewhere that most folks like to load out on these little puss-buckets..

[Zangetsu]

Scratch that "Purge" question... How about combining "Purge" with Death Knell? I realize, too, that I maybe straying a bit from the List Forum with these quieries..

[Zangetsu]

And for the hat trick... I may be getting a little ahead of myself... Perhaps I need to add the caveat that I am coming from Infinity (want a fun side game to play), so this is rather new for me..

[lance.stucker]

Deathjack is awesome with Egaspy. I wouldn't take him out. Your list looks great. You can do two death knells with deathjack. Even if you can't kill units or their caster on a charge, just use death knell for lots of damage.

[Obeisance]

Ok, I'll explain.

Bile Thralls have a ranged attack called Purge. This automatically hits all models in their front arc and within 6". This is a huge amount of real estate. All models hit suffer a POW 12 damage roll and the Continuous Corrosion effect. Then that Bile Thrall is removed from the game. Single wound infantry just dies to Purge.

Couple that with eGaspy's weapon, you place a Soul Reaper template. Anything living that dies in that template gives you tasty, tasty souls.

Now, the problem with Bile Thralls is that they are super low DEF and ARM. Incredibly easy to kill. This is where eGaspy steps in with Excarnate. Excarnate is a 10" magic spell that does a POW 13 magic damage roll. If something does, you can add an undead model to a unit, with the model within 3" of eGaspy.

So you deploy the Biles next to eGaspy.
Run a Nightwretch up near the enemy.
eGaspy advances, casts Excarnate through the Nightwretch at a squishy random infantry guy.
Summon a new Bile Thrall within formation (7" from leader) and within 3" from eGaspy.
eGaspy the Teleports away to safety.
Biles advance, the newly summoned one Purges on the enemy.

The Excarnate trick basically increases an 11" threat range to an 19" threat range.

Walk is 5", Purge is 6" - 11"
Walk is 5", Purge is 6", +7" for the Bile's CMD, plus +1" for the size of the new Bile's base - 19"

[Zangetsu]

Now what about the Mechanithralls and the Brute Thrall WA? They work really well with Death Knell, no? I'm beginning to understand that this game is synergy based, and that some combos are more popular than others and there is a level of trying to break the meta-game and do something new, I guess I'm trying to balance what looks cool with what works...

[Obeisance]

Why would Mechanithralls/etc work well, with Death Knell? The only times you really want to be intentionally targeting your own models is when you can't target the enemy (spell ward, banishing ward) or if the enemy's DEF is too high. Like Winterguard with Iron Flesh and Bob and Weave (DEF 17, still a 10+ for spells regardless). In any case, the solution there is still Bile Thralls. High DEF stuff generally has crap ARM.

Tell you what, I'll show you my own eGaspy list at 35. This way you can see what a tuned list looks like. His list is kinda annoying to build at 35, but perfect at 50.

eGaspy
- Nightwretch
- Nightwretch
10 Bane Knights
6 Bane Thralls, Officer and Standard
6 Bile Thralls
The Withershadow Combine
Machine Wraith
=35

Withershadow are amazing, just FYI.

[Dracon]

Remember too look at stickies, too.
Theres a good one on the deathjack which explains why he's been taken less lately at lower point levels.
(Can't give anymore advice that's play tested, trust me, it makes a big difference.)

[Zangetsu]

The WM lingo is still a bit new to me as well... stickies?

[Zangetsu]

@Obeisance
Awesome, thank you for your suggestions! I came up with the same list after your suggestions... You're pretty clear and concise. So your 10% is really, largely, Bile Thralls... interesting. I was watching BoW, and a number of BatReps and this little tidbit was a not a common approach. May I ask what your gaming group/tournament situation looks like? I have been asking locals in this region and I get so many differing opinions my head is spinning...

[Fandeath]

The WM lingo is still a bit new to me as well... stickies?

That's actually forum lingo. It means to refer to the 3 or 4 topics that have been "stuck" to the top of the main Cryx forum. They are amazing and contain an overload of valuable information. I think it took me two months to read and digest absolutely everything in them. It helped me build a great list though.

[Zangetsu]

I think I may have missed something... I looked at the stickies (thank you for clearing that up by the way) and it seems like Deathjack is pretty stellar at 35 and up... I'm also in love with him... however, learning a new, and markedly different, game is a bit much so going with what seems to work and work well is very attractive, i.e. Obeisance's Bile Thrall and Deathwretch setup...
Picking through other eGaspy lists and seeing that folks seem to think that he doesn't need arc nodes as much as others has me a little perplexed... I can see how the Iron Lord version is more dependent, but the Lich Lord version doesn't seem as dependent... Why?

[Obeisance]

@Obeisance
May I ask what your gaming group/tournament situation looks like? I have been asking locals in this region and I get so many differing opinions my head is spinning...

Tournament situation? Uh.

I play in Perth. My local meta is fairly diverse. All factions are represented with good mix of casters. We have a solid core of about 15-20 who come to most events- our biggest event was 48 strong, I came 3rd. I'm also presently ranked 16th in Australia (not that RHQ rankings mean much). I actually played eGaspy 3 times at that tourney, with that list. Note that it was SR2011, at the end of last year.

There's actually a few tournament reports by me if you search for them.

... was that what you wanted to know?

[Zangetsu]

Yeah, that is very helpful! Your ranking, not that I understand it other than in a general sense, is helpful to keep in mind.

[Zangetsu]

By that I mean to say that it helps illustrate that it is a feasible and competitive setup.

[Fandeath]

Keep in mind that you will fail with a good list that is not tailored to your personal style of play. A lot of this game is about finding what is good and what works for you. It takes a lot of playing to figure that out.

[Zangetsu]

Fandeath, I really appreciate you saying that! A lot of stuff to keep in mind... Only one way to find out, so I suppose it's time to get to it!

[Zangetsu]

@Fandeath
May I ask you a little about your Cryx list? Do you use eGaspy? If not, why not? If so, what do you enjoy running?

[Obeisance]

Yeah, Fan is right. You can take the most ridiculously competitive list and still fail with it in this system. It's all about micromanaging, your skill and knowing your opponents. Whereas, in WHFB/40k, where you can just demolish people based on lists alone.

It's been said it takes about 30 games with a single caster, against varied opponents, to be ready to take him/her to a tournament- and I agree. Take me learning Saeyrn, the Legion warlock. I copied Neutralyze's list at his suggestion, which won Gencon the previous year. I was dropping games left and right.. I got to about 20 games and started gaining real proficiency.

That's one of the things I love about the system. The challenge. The infinite complexity.

[Zangetsu]

I'm really happy to hear all of this! With infinity it is largely about being "one" with your list more than what is taken to the table... I really appreciate this quality (in whatever form) and the complexity, but also being able to get proficient with the caster.. Nothing but excitement over here! Thank you so much for your help and your suggestions!

[Fandeath]

@Fandeath
May I ask you a little about your Cryx list? Do you use eGaspy? If not, why not? If so, what do you enjoy running?

I should preface this by saying that I have only been playing Cryx for 3-4 months now, and my Warmachine experience before that was only a couple months trying different factions out with a ton of proxy games. I still proxy a ton of games actually. I find it's the best way to learn what works for me and what doesn't. Before that I was a Warhammer 40K player, and moving to this game was an excellent decision for me.

My Cryx list is a pDenny list. I bought the Battlebox, so I decided to stick with her. The list that I find works great for me is:

pDenny *5
Deathripper (2) 8
Bane Thralls (10) 8
Bane Thrall UA 3
Bane Lord Tartarus 4
Pistol Wraith (2) 6
Skarlock Thrall 2
Warwitch Siren (2) 4
Withershadow Combine 5

It fits the way I play pDenny well, and performs well against a variety of other lists. Sometimes I switch it up and replace the Withershadow Combine with Bile Thralls, sometimes I take out the Pistol Wraiths and Tartarus (you don't always need to auto-include him with pDenny) for a full unit of McThralls with 3 Brutes and a Surgeon.

If I only used the models I had assembled and painted, my army would be much more limited than this. That's why I suggest proxying a lot until you find the list you want to build up to. In a few months I'll hopefully have the above list all assembled and well-painted. Until then, I use bases with character art stuck onto them to proxy the models that aren't done/bought yet. I just got a job, so I can finally pick up the pace on creating the army I spent so many months figuring out. I had a blast doing it, and I suggest you do the same. I don't know nearly enough about eGaspy to give advice, but I do know that he is a fantastic caster with that Caustic Mist & Soul Reaper combination. His feat is incredible too, great with Banes.

Anyway, play around with a bunch of proxy lists and see what works best for you. That's half the fun of the game for me to be honest. I love changing it up.

[Lamoron]

That's the best thing about this game. You can copy a list that someone won 20 games straight with, and lose 20 games straight until you tweak it to your way of playing. The one advice I'll give you is to apply healthy skepticism to anything you read on Battlecollege, because while many of the articles are fine there are some horrible ones lurking just ready to waste your money

[Zangetsu]

Ah yes, BattleCollege... There's a lot there... And that's good to keep in mind. I have found a lot of it to be helpful, though.. I'll get some guys that I want to play and proxy to see where things go! I really appreciate everyone's help!! I'll get Mr. eGaspy some bane knights and lord tartarus!

[Obeisance]

Biles. Dear god, don't forget the Biles. You need a minimum of 7.

[Fandeath]

My friends loathe Biles more than any other model Cryx has.

[Zangetsu]

Really?! HAHAHA! Okay! I will not forget the biles... Seven? Don't you only get the options of 6 or 10?

[Dracon]

Not if you create another out of excanate.

[lolololage]

Really?! HAHAHA! Okay! I will not forget the biles... Seven? Don't you only get the options of 6 or 10?

Excarnate adds one to the unit.

If you havent lost any and dont have an extra model, some people wont let you put it in play. Kinda depends on how friendly your local players are.

[Zangetsu]

Hahaha, dang! That's awesome! Except for stingy players... that's kind of grumpy. So you want to get your Bile Thralls to seven and then send them in?

[Zangetsu]

Also, to revisit the Mechanithrall bomb idea through Death Knell... Can't you get added damage with more guys under the template, jumping the killing power up to some high levels? So you clump some mechanithralls up with a 'jack and death knell the dude for some strong offensive action? If using Brute Thralls there is added punch head on and finishing them off with Death Knell... Get souls, kill the other guy... And if you have a Necrosurgeon all the better, no?

[lolololage]

Hahaha, dang! That's awesome! Except for stingy players... that's kind of grumpy. So you want to get your Bile Thralls to seven and then send them in?

No, you want to use excarnate to place a blie firther forward before the unit activates, thus adding to the overall threat range of the unit. (normall 5" move and 6" range for 11" of pain)

There are a lot of weird and wonderfull tricks to make this range very VERY long.

One bile thrall is all you need, expect them to die very often, but they auto hit, which means auto corrosion, which means most 1 wound infantry auto die if hit (either from the initial damage or the 2/3 chance of the damage from corrosion.) If you get more than one (or even one to be honest) into the 11" range of lots of infantry then your opponents probably done something wrong.

Also, to revisit the Mechanithrall bomb idea through Death Knell... Can't you get added damage with more guys under the template, jumping the killing power up to some high levels? So you clump some mechanithralls up with a 'jack and death knell the dude for some strong offensive action? If using Brute Thralls there is added punch head on and finishing them off with Death Knell... Get souls, kill the other guy... And if you have a Necrosurgeon all the better, no?

Generally the extra damage isnt worth the points lost, in most cases. But if you DID want to try it, use scrap thralls. Cheaper and if they die to the blast (which they will) then they explode and give you a second chance at killing.

[Zangetsu]

Very interesting... I must order bile thralls - the options they offer seem painfully wonderful! As for the Mechanithralls, that was more of a curiosity... I don't really dig the models all that much and rather be wily and devious with Cryx, their forté in my mind, and employ some nasty corrosive tricks. Now here's another question for this eGaspy list, with Deathjack or not, how does it do with Hordes?

[Fandeath]

Your Bile Thralls will get wiped out before they can do anything in like half the games you play, but in the other half they will win you the game. That's been my experience anyway. But they are helping you tremendously in both situations. The models your opponent is using to get rid of them are ignoring the rest of your army. They are a unit that your opponent must take care of in order to avoid massive casualties, and you should always use that to your advantage.

[lolololage]

Very interesting... I must order bile thralls - the options they offer seem painfully wonderful! As for the Mechanithralls, that was more of a curiosity... I don't really dig the models all that much and rather be wily and devious with Cryx, their forté in my mind, and employ some nasty corrosive tricks. Now here's another question for this eGaspy list, with Deathjack or not, how does it do with Hordes?

If your looking for a proper spell to abuse hitting your own models look to eDenny.

Run a mech/scrap thrall right into the middle of some infantry bunched in a 6" area, cast hellmouth, drag everyone to the scrap thrall and kill them all (twice)

[Zangetsu]

Hmmm... The things I learn. I love this forum and all of this input! I am hoping to proxy the bile process to see if I like the mechanisms and tactics. I am curious to hear some thoughts on including Deathjack with eGaspy at 35pts.

[lolololage]

Hmmm... The things I learn. I love this forum and all of this input! I am hoping to proxy the bile process to see if I like the mechanisms and tactics. I am curious to hear some thoughts on including Deathjack with eGaspy at 35pts.

While i dont have much experiance with the DJ, im fairly sure the opinions will be, DJ is always a great jack, but his high price tag often makes him a "kill to win" button for your opponent at lower points levels.

[Obeisance]

Don't get me wrong, Deathjack is a solid helljack. He's just too expensive for 35pts. eGaspy's a caster who really likes his infantry.

Tell you what, if it helps- I'll breakdown my unit choices in the list to make you understand why everything in it, is so crucial.

eGaspy
- Nightwretch
- Nightwretch
10 Bane Knights
6 Bane Thralls, Officer and Standard
6 Bile Thralls
The Withershadow Combine
Banelord Tartarus
Machine Wraith
=35

Nightwretches. eGaspy has +6 jack points to spend. You could take Deathjack and drop 6pts of other stuff but everything is important. I've played Gaspy with nodes, I've played him without. And I've found that he absolutely prefers to have them. One for early game, one for late game.

Knights. Thse are auto-include with eGaspy. They're your Spectral Legion fodder.

Bane Thralls. Just running Knights, gives you very little staying power. Thralls break face. They're hard to kill due to ARM 15/Stealth and Tough. You need them for attrition.

Bile Thralls. Biles are amazing with eGaspy. The Excarnate Trick is brutal. Plus he doesn't have a DEF debuff so you're going to struggle hitting high DEF infantry. Biles are an answer to spell ward and high DEF infantry spam.

Withershadow. My favorite unit. Immensely versitile and were in every list in SR2011 for me. MAT 6/7 POW 13's that are weaponmaster against jacks, a free upkeep, the ability to create new jacks and the power to strip upkeeps. Admonia sneezes and removes Iron Flesh, Defender's Ward, Crippling Graspy- you name it. Without Admonia, you will never be able to hit some casters... there's only so much MAT 8 Banes can do. They're also ARM 15/Stealth, so they're pretty durable. And Darkfires. In an army without shooting, ranged magic is an advantage.

Banelord Tartarus. His main role is to provide Curse. MAT 6 Banes can't hit the broad side of a Juggernaut. MAT 8 Banes can murder almost anything. It also bumps them from SPD 5, to SPD 7. So Thralls go from a total threat of 8.5", to 10.5" and Knights go from 10" to 12" (Plus Vengance). Small number, huge difference. He also can replenish Banes, provide Shroud for Knights and he also hits like a truck.

Machine Wraith. Had a point left. Figured and incorporeal contester was the best choice.

...

That help?

[Zangetsu]

That helps me a great deal! I suppose my newness to the game makes it hard to shake off the lust for such a pretty 'jack... I greatly love the infantry for this setup. Would you throw DJ in at 50, if so how? It may be a bit tricky to get some of my gaming mates to spring from 35 to 50 is the thing.. and while I actually like the little puss filled sacks of protoplasmic, death-enchanted discharge, I am wanting to see DJ worked in somewhere down the line as he's the reason I want to play this game.. well, him and eGaspy...