Focus efficiency

[Kalki]

Hi everybody.
The Vyre jacks seem to be considered to be more "focus efficient" than their Shyeel counterparts. I myself am new to the game and Ret and have no experience with the Vyre jacks. I'm therefore wondering in what way they can be more focus efficient?

[rolandhadley]

Hi everybody.
The Vyre jacks seem to be considered to be more "focus efficient" than their Shyeel counterparts. I myself am new to the game and Ret and have no experience with the Vyre jacks. I'm therefore wondering in what way they can be more focus efficient?

The Vyre jacks can be considered to be more focus efficient because most of them specialize in one ranged attack with a great special ability - The Banshee with Knockdown/Slam, the Daemon with its AoE/hellmouth type attack, and Hypnos with his Void Lock that essentially neutralizes opponents. With these jacks, you usually need one focus, to boost to hit, and occasionally not even that, although you can boost damage as well if you have the focus for it.

With Shyeel jacks on the other hand, many of them are better suited to hand-to-hand combat, which generally calls for 3 focus when you are going in close, or they have ranged attacks that really call for as much focus as possible for dealing with multiple targets (Manticore and Discordia).

There are certainly exceptions to this - for instance, the Aspis, mostly there for Shield Guard, hardly needs any focus at all, and none of this means that Vyre jacks are better; the Phoenix, Manticore, Griffon and Discordia are all excellent at what they do.

In planning any list, you want to figure out how much focus is going where on a typical turn. If you want to be regularly using your casters attack spells, or running a lot of upkeeps, for instance, you probably don't want to take multiple focus greedy jacks.

[Kalki]

I see, thanks

[Kallas]

Vyre jacks are not more efficient, it's that what people are expecting to get out of the Vyre jacks is significantly different.

The Shyeel chassis has straightforward damaging guns and getting decent mileage out of pure damage requires a little more investment due to the requirement to hit first of all. Vyre has a number of on-hit riders, such as knockdown and the vortex blast, and as such much of the time will only require a single focus point to get a significant return.

But that's pretty much rehashing what rolandhadley said.

[rolandhadley]

One thing I forgot that also contributes to this: Shyeel jacks can heal their shields a bit each turn, but that takes focus.

[hausdorff space]

People that often talk about focus efficiency don't really understand the concept.
- This isn't directed at anyone, it's just something worth noting ... crazy focus efficiency threads have popped up in the past.

Shyeel jacks tend to do things without needing to spend focus, Vyre jacks have nifty abilities that trigger off attacks; I'm not sure any Ret jacks are actually focus efficient.

[joelker41]

People that often talk about focus efficiency don't really understand the concept.
- This isn't directed at anyone, it's just something worth noting ... crazy focus efficiency threads have popped up in the past.

Shyeel jacks tend to do things without needing to spend focus, Vyre jacks have nifty abilities that trigger off attacks; I'm not sure any Ret jacks are actually focus efficient.

Perhaps it an argue of which are more worth the investment.

Focus and strategy wise I never see a need to bring a Chimera and Griffon over a Phoenix for the same cost.

[Xarian]

How to judge efficiency: look at the amount of focus needed to do its job at the minimum acceptable limit. Then look at the amount of focus needed to activate its non-mutually-exclusive special abilities - you are paying for these, after all, so if you can't use them it will drop their efficiency.

Single-shot attacks will be assumed to be using a boosted attack roll (important to hit them if you only get one shot). Attacks targeting 'jacks will assume boosts to damage. Melee attacks will not buy additional attacks (because this is universal for all 'jacks and will cancel out in a comparison). Melee attacks will always be considered to be charge attacks (note this cancels out with buying a boost against 'jacks). Ranged weapons will buy all of their bonus attacks.

Free attacks (Chain Attack, Counterblast, etc) will subtract half a point each if they require another hit or some contingency, or one point if they are not contingent on other effects. Effects that grant free movement (like Heavy Boiler) will subtract half a point if they have a contingency, or 0.75 points if they can always be used.

If an attack requires focus to be effective but does not spend it (like the Hydra's gun), add half a point. Special abilities that require focus but do not contribute to the primary job of the jack will add half of their focus cost. Special abilities that add focus will subtract half a point if they have a difficult contingency, or they will subtract the focus granted if they have an easy contingency or don't have a continency (in general, contingencies will be ignored if they are easy to achieve).

Comparing various 'jacks
Manticore (Melee) - For the one big double-smash, it will require 1 (generator) + 2 (boost/charge), also takes 1 to regenerate shields. Job: 2, Abilities: 1.5. Ranking is 3.5 (counting the shield regeneration as half, because it's not part of its primary job).
Manticore (Ranged) - For shooting at low-DEF infantry. 2 for bonus shots. Job: 2, Abilities: 0.5 Ranking is 2.5

Daemon (Melee) - For beating on infantry with ARM or DEF buffs. Charge 1. Job: 1. Ranking is 1.
Daemon (Ranged) - For beating on clustered infantry with low ARM. 1 to boost attack roll. Job: 1. Ranking is 1.

Banshee (Melee) - For beating on everything; assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges. Job: 2. Ranking is 2.
Banshee (Ranged) - For knockdowns; damage component is halved due to secondary job. 1 to boost attack roll, 1 to boost damage roll. Job: 1.5 Ranking is 1.5

Discordia (Melee) - For beating on everything; assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges, imprint. Job: 2. Abilities: 1.5. Ranking is 3.5
Discordia (Ranged) - For shooting at multiple targets; treating as a single-hit ability. 2 boosts, imprint. Job: 2. Abilities: 1.5. Ranking is 3.5.

Hydra (Melee) - Assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges, contingent free attack, contingent focus gain. Job: 1. Abilities: 0.5. Ranking is 1.5.
Hydra (Ranged) - Assuming jacks. 2 boosts, focus-needing attack, contingent focus gain. Job: 2. Abilities: 0.5. Ranking is 2.5.

Berserker (Melee only) - For beating on everything; assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges, 1 free charge, 1 free headbutt with contingency. Job: 0.5. Ranking is 0.5.

Juggernaut (Melee only) - Assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges. Job: 2. Ranking is 2.

Kodiak (Melee only) - Assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges, non-contingent free run, contingent free attack. Job: 0.75. Ranking is 0.75.

Stormclad (Melee) - Assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges, easy contingent focus gain, contingent free attack. Job: 0.5. Ranking is 0.5.
Stormclad (Ranged) - Assuming infantry. 1 boost, easy contingent focus gain, contingent free attack. Job: -0.5. Ranking is -0.5.

Hammersmith (Melee only) - Assuming jacks. 2 boosts/charges, contingent movement gain, contingent free attack. Job: 1. Ranking is 1.

I could go on further... you see the trend, though.

So...
- The Manticore is a focus hog in every role (we knew this already)
- The Daemon is the most focus-efficient 'jack (we knew this already, too)
- The Banshee is somewhere in the middle, and its gun is pretty efficient
- Discordia is equally efficient at ranged and melee and is pretty much equivalent to the Daemon, if you ignore the shield generator and you aren't using the imprint.
- Shyeel 'jacks get worse scores due to their shield generators and special abilities
- Retribution jacks, except for the Hydra, don't have anything that gives them free attack or focus

[Kallas]

Xarian, I disagree. Wildly.

While you are paying for all of the jacks abilities, the flexibility involved is something that can't be quantified in such a simple fashion.

The fact that some abilities won't be used is both good and bad. Take the Hammersmith-Manticore example. The Hammersmith is effective in its role, but how is it efficient? It is MAT 6 and has a Chain Attack. This is the equivalent of a Hydra. The Manticore (I don't understand why you costed the Combo Strike since it doesn't require focus and shouldn't be used except against 22+ ARM) has equivalent MAT but more powerful swings most of the time. But when it is not performing any melee function (ie, half the time) it is doing nothing. Whereas the Manticore is performing at range with a hand cannon or a focus-less Covering Fire.

The reason Ret casters are believed to be focus strapped, or that our jacks are inefficient, is that it is difficult to prioritise which jack actually needs focus that turn. Take a caster who has Discordia, a Phoenix and a Manticore.

Does Discordia need her imprint? Any targets for her spray? Will she be in melee.

The Phoenix, is it arcing, so does it need to run and how much for the spell? Is it gunning? Trying to hit? Damage? Will it be using Combustion? Does it need a Combustion damage roll boosted, multiple?

Manticore; shooting multiple infantry? Boosting damage against a jack? Hammering a heavy in melee?

Etcetera.

The problem with this battlegroup is not the focus of each, but that they have multiple purposes and determining which is wanted, required, is much more important and any error in judgement will cost you, as the player, severely as your focus is wasted on an unimportant part of the battlefield.

[serrasin]

I disagree with the method that you use to evaluate the jacks. First of all dedicating focus to regenerate forcefield is purely optional and doesn't impact it's effectiveness. Secondly you are not looking at what the jack can do with zero focus. The Manticore, for example, is very effective just placing it's covering fire template which costs zero focus. Likewise, the Phoenix can combust and be effective for zero focus and still be potent.

Personally I look at what a jack can accomplish with no or a single focus when looking at its focus economy. Then I look at what I need it to do and how much investment in Focus that will take to accomplish. Finally you look at what it can do with full focus. In that sense the Manticore is far more focus efficient than either Discordia or the Hydra; it can at least do something with nothing.

[Xarian]

While you are paying for all of the jacks abilities, the flexibility involved is something that can't be quantified in such a simple fashion.... other stuff

You are definitely right about the versatility. Jacks that can perform multiple roles should generally be considered more efficient, like you said, because a melee-only jack will be doing nothing sometimes. And I picked Combo Strike just as a representative use; the cost would be the same with normal attacks, too.

I didn't mean this as an end-all-be-all analysis or anything, just putting some actual thought and numbers behind the perception of focus efficiency.

I disagree with the method that you use to evaluate the jacks. First of all dedicating focus to regenerate forcefield is purely optional and doesn't impact it's effectiveness. Secondly you are not looking at what the jack can do with zero focus. The Manticore, for example, is very effective just placing it's covering fire template which costs zero focus. Likewise, the Phoenix can combust and be effective for zero focus and still be potent.

Dedicating focus to regenerate the forcefields does affect its effectiveness - you cannot use the ability without focus, and you are paying points for the ability. Notice that I said 'minimum acceptable limit'. You aren't paying 8 points for one covering fire every turn, or for a combust every turn.

Personally I look at what a jack can accomplish with no or a single focus when looking at its focus economy. Then I look at what I need it to do and how much investment in Focus that will take to accomplish. Finally you look at what it can do with full focus. In that sense the Manticore is far more focus efficient than either Discordia or the Hydra; it can at least do something with nothing.

And of those three, Discordia actually does the most damage without focus just because of the spray. The issue isn't "what can I do with no focus?", but "how much focus is it going to take to run my jacks effectively?"

[j78]

the hydra is the only focus efficient jack we have, because it's the only one that can use three focus on a turn it wasn't allocated three focus. everything else is just distribution of resources. the hydra creates resources (on one turn) where there were none before.

does that mean it's worth taking? not all the time, but for sure it wins a discussion of efficiency.

[hausdorff space]

the hydra is the only focus efficient jack we have, because it's the only one that can use three focus on a turn it wasn't allocated three focus. everything else is just distribution of resources. the hydra creates resources (on one turn) where there were none before.

does that mean it's worth taking? not all the time, but for sure it wins a discussion of efficiency.

I'm not sure that's actually efficiency.

[j78]

I'm not sure that's actually efficiency.

well, each turn you have a limited pool of it. the rules of that jack allow you to exceed that amount on a given turn. getting more out of the same pool of resources sounds efficient to me.

[Kalki]

Well it certainly seems like I will be thinking more of how much focus the jacks I choose can be expected to consume and that I should check out the Vyre jacks. Thank you all for your opinions

[Lord Sessadore]

well, each turn you have a limited pool of it. the rules of that jack allow you to exceed that amount on a given turn. getting more out of the same pool of resources sounds efficient to me.

I think the point Hausdorff is trying to make is that "focus efficiency" should really be defined as doing more with each point of focus. For example, a Charger is more focus efficient than most ranged jacks - a single focus boosts both attack and damage for that shot.

The Hydra is more of a focus multiplier or maybe a focus bank, and most of the things that people call "focus efficient" are really just saving focus, not making a given point of focus do more things. If you have a free charge, you're probably still going to give that heavy 3 focus and each of those focus are going to do the exact same as they would do if you didn't charge; the free charge just saves you from having to pay the focus to charge.

Granted I may be splitting hairs, and it doesn't really matter if everyone is actually talking about how much focus our jacks need to consume to be effective.

[currentlyunknown]

So, for the most part jacks are of roughly equivalent focus efficiency. Generally it takes one focus to do one action, and you can have up to 3 focus to play with. So how do you get more efficient as a jack? Take fewer focus to accomplish your goal. Some examples:

-being able to run/charge for free
-single boost for both hit and damage
-having high stats/nifty abilities that reduce the need for boosts, particularly with shooty jacks (a la hunter)
-independent focus generation (a la deathjack, seether, or stormclad/gallant)

There might be some other jack tricks I'm not thinking of, but those are the ones that come to mind. Of these, Ret basically has none. The arcanist is not really an efficiency granter, just eases focus burden on the casters. The one focus mechanic really only works for a few jacks. It's not that dissimilar from a jack marshall really, except you can make power attacks (which can be a big deal).

However, when talking about focus efficiency, it is important to note that you can gain efficiency through the list and caster. Some examples:

-buffs like positive charge
-debuffs like black spot
-auto boosters like guided fire
-actions like tune up
-movement efficiency spells like full throttle or full tilt
-feats like horsepower

Alright, so looking over that list, the issue is that Ret doesn't really do any of that either. The closest we probably have is mobility and Vyros' feat. Neither of which are really on par with other factions. Vyros feat really doesn't add to efficiency, it adds to the overall pool. There aren't really any MAT/RAT buffs in the faction (outside of Ravyn's feat, and Rahn's feat).

So why are the Vyre jacks well regarded? Because 3 out of 4 require only a single focus to have a significant impact. The Banshee with a boosted shot has a reasonable chance to knock something down, which is one of the best "conditions" to put on an enemy. The Daemon with a boosted shot can reliably hit a cluster of enemy models. Hypnos is, at present, the only non feat thing in the game that can stop beasts from forcing (only with Ossyan). I didn't even include it, but the Sphinx is just a nice cheap jack that has reach, which is one of the best abilities in the game.

So, I think that when people say "focus efficient", they probably mean that the Vyre jacks are less of a focus burden on the caster.

[serrasin]

You are definitely right about the versatility. Jacks that can perform multiple roles should generally be considered more efficient, like you said, because a melee-only jack will be doing nothing sometimes. And I picked Combo Strike just as a representative use; the cost would be the same with normal attacks, too.

I didn't mean this as an end-all-be-all analysis or anything, just putting some actual thought and numbers behind the perception of focus efficiency.

Dedicating focus to regenerate the forcefields does affect its effectiveness - you cannot use the ability without focus, and you are paying points for the ability. Notice that I said 'minimum acceptable limit'. You aren't paying 8 points for one covering fire every turn, or for a combust every turn.


And of those three, Discordia actually does the most damage without focus just because of the spray. The issue isn't "what can I do with no focus?", but "how much focus is it going to take to run my jacks effectively?"

Yes spending focus to regenerate the forcefield costs focus; this is self evident. However in your analysis you only charge the Manticore with it which shows either bias or an incomplete model. Additionally, (and please correctly me if I an wrong) I have yet to hear of anyone actively regenerating forcefields unless they would otherwise be sitting on the focus. You are also completely discounting the effects of abilities on the field of play such as covering fire or combust. Basically the system you have here is like trying to validate units or models based on 'how many points did it kill', it gives an incomplete picture.

the hydra is the only focus efficient jack we have, because it's the only one that can use three focus on a turn it wasn't allocated three focus. everything else is just distribution of resources. the hydra creates resources (on one turn) where there were none before.

does that mean it's worth taking? not all the time, but for sure it wins a discussion of efficiency.

This has been discussed in detail before, but a Hydra being used primarily for its gun is particularly inefficient.

There might be some other jack tricks I'm not thinking of, but those are the ones that come to mind. Of these, Ret basically has none. The arcanist is not really an efficiency granter, just eases focus burden on the casters. The one focus mechanic really only works for a few jacks. It's not that dissimilar from a jack marshall really, except you can make power attacks (which can be a big deal).

So why are the Vyre jacks well regarded? Because 3 out of 4 require only a single focus to have a significant impact. The Banshee with a boosted shot has a reasonable chance to knock something down, which is one of the best "conditions" to put on an enemy. The Daemon with a boosted shot can reliably hit a cluster of enemy models. Hypnos is, at present, the only non feat thing in the game that can stop beasts from forcing (only with Ossyan). I didn't even include it, but the Sphinx is just a nice cheap jack that has reach, which is one of the best abilities in the game.

So, I think that when people say "focus efficient", they probably mean that the Vyre jacks are less of a focus burden on the caster.

I generally agree although this does not touch on some of the things that Shyeel Jacks can do with low or no focus. I would also like to touch on your comment on the Arcanist. While it's ability to give jacks focus might not impact a jacks efficiency, Concentrated Power certainly is.

[j78]

This has been discussed in detail before, but a Hydra being used primarily for its gun is particularly inefficient.

Not talking about just using it for it's gun. The examples people are citing aren't really focus based. A Banshee is going to knock something down if it hits with it's gun, focus makes it easier to hit, but that works for all the jacks, so at that point people are just saying the banshee has a better gun.

The hydra allows a 6 focus caster to load up three jacks with three focus on the same turn through use of the battery. That means if the hydra is part of your battle group, you can get 9 focus worth of power from your jacks after allocating only 6. That's the most focus efficient you're going to get. Now, maybe you think a phoenix with concentrated power and 1 focus is a better option than the the fully loaded hydra, and that's fine, but then you're not talking about focus efficiency anymore you're just discussing which jacks are better to take.

[WarmbloodedLizard]

The hydra allows a 6 focus caster to load up three jacks with three focus on the same turn through use of the battery. That means if the hydra is part of your battle group, you can get 9 focus worth of power from your jacks after allocating only 6. That's the most focus efficient you're going to get. Now, maybe you think a phoenix with concentrated power and 1 focus is a better option than the the fully loaded hydra, and that's fine, but then you're not talking about focus efficiency anymore you're just discussing which jacks are better to take.

I don't get how this has anything to do with focus efficiency? You're just talking about getting more focus in one turn while sacrificing focus in another, right? (or am I missing something?)

(I don't see how the hydra is that efficient. if you have 2-3 unused focus on the first turn, great. you get to get to have a POW 15 RNG 15 gun that only costs 1 focus to do it's solo-killing job, which is pretty efficient but outside of this side-job, the hydra isn't really focus efficient. the option to then use the stored focus later on in close combat doesn't really have anything to do with focus efficiency)


efficiency usually means input-output ratio of something.

i.e. to acomplish job X you want to spend as little focus as possible.

e.g. a griffon is very focus efficient, because you usually don't have to boost to hit because of powerful charge. you only need to allocate 1 focus for it to do his job. Other jacks will have to boost to hit against many models.

e.g. the aspis is focus efficient, because you have to spend 0-1 focus (depending on whether you have to run) for it to do its job (protect friendly model from ranged) (on the other hand, it's not very efficient in CC)

e.g. the Manticore is probably focus inefficient (though often focus efficacious) because it has to spend a lot of focus to do its main tast (charge, reactor + boost)


(I'm not that experienced, so examples may contain errors )

[hausdorff space]

(I don't see how the hydra is that efficient. if you have 2-3 unused focus on the first turn, great. you get to get to have a POW 15 RNG 15 gun that only costs 1 focus to do it's solo-killing job, which is pretty efficient but outside of this side-job, the hydra isn't really focus efficient. the option to then use the stored focus later on in close combat doesn't really have anything to do with focus efficiency)

I think the thing that confuses a lot of people is that giving the Hydra focus is potentially a lot less wasteful than giving another myrmidon focus (as it can hold it, especially after a failed ranged hit roll or charge), gains some generic benefit from holding focus, and can (If your opponent is kind) generate its own.

So within the focus-turn system its fury bank properties can give it the illusion of efficiency (one focus left from last turn can be misread as a free charge); where it's not really any more efficient it's just not quite as wasteful.

[Ralphus]

Really I think a solid definition of "Focus Efficiency" is needed. Everyone has their own views as to what is efficient for their playstyle or caster. If the case of not requiring any focus to be dedicated to doing it's job, then none of our jacks are focus efficient. Or is it that our Jacks require less to get more out of them? Look at the Death Jack from Cryx or the Avatar for Menoth. Those are Focus Efficient warjacks. They don't need any outside help to do their respective jobs. So what does Retribution consider efficient?