My friend complaining that Cygnar can't win at scenarios

[phillipsjr4]

So, I play Orboros and Retribution. One of our core players plays Cygnar. Last night I wanted to test out some of the SR2012 scenarios and played eKrueger, he played pCaine. His list went something like this (35 point game):

pCaine
ironclad
max long gunners
min trenchers putting up clouds in front of his models
min precursor knights (i think these are the models, weapon masters)
min stormlances
B13

maybe another model or two I'm forgetting. We played scenario 7 which is 3 control points, one randomly disappearing. He did pretty well early game, double-tap CRA'd my Celestial Fulcrum off the board with two pow 20 shots with sniped long gunners. But at the end of 2nd player's 2nd turn (his) he scored one control point having assaulted his trenchers in, however most of his models were still in his deployment zone shooting out while I'd been advancing. I'd killed his stormlances and feated on Krueger to push his precursor knights back and make them unable to get to control points. He seemed to get mad and said there was no point in him even playing the game if we played scenarios because he auto-lost. However if we don't play a scenario he'll often do things like move forward with Caine fire 4x and then teleport away- being constantly 20" away from his target and easily winning a late-game attrition war.

So is he wrong that Cygnar suffers in scenario play, or can they do alright?

[Sanctjud]

eKruger is built for Scenarios.
pCaine's list is built to mainly shoot shoot and stay away.

It's the list and play style, he should be more aggressive if he doesn't wan to lose at scenario vs. a scenario caster.

Scenario is how the game is balanced. It promotes BALANCED lists.
As much as it benefits you, it benefits him, in that YOU have to advance into his guns in the first place.

AKA: Tell him to look at Page 5 again IMO.

[SillySod]

He is incorrect....

... although eKrueger is a ***** to play against in scenario play with any faction. Honestly I'd attribute this to a mixture of poor play and eKrueger giving everyone a terrible time in scenarios. He could also do with a slightly better list but thats neither here nor there if he is approaching scenarios in the wrong way anyway.

In order to give advice it would be pretty handy to know exactly what you were using. How on earth did you kill those storm lances, for example?

[bStyker]

Nah, he's kinda right, I think Cygnar does suffer a little in certain scenarios due to the fact that we've got very expensive infantry that don't have much staying power in melee. That being said, if you bring an army like your opponent did to a Scenario game, you're basically begging to lose. Especially against a Scenario caster like eKruger (as Sanctjud mentioned.)

If they brought a bunch of 'in your face' combined arms styled infantry and Jacks, and made the Scenario their goal instead of standing back and shooting, they probably could have done better in that game. Even still, Cygnar favours assassination quite heavily, and though you can build for Scenario it's just a little tougher.

It can be done, has been done, and we have some tools to do so. It just requires adapting fighting styles and list buildling.

[DemonCalibre]

So is he wrong that Cygnar suffers in scenario play, or can they do alright?

While Cygnar can struggle with Scenarios, this is mostly on your friend. He didn't consider scenarios in his list design, and build a list that will struggle deeply in playing scenarios.

I feel you should always play a Scenario even if it is just Overrun, simply because it prevents kiting and forces your opponent to try to win the game(not hide and nickle and dime till you make a play error in a 4 and a half hour long game).

Particularly for new player Cygnar can be a trap when it comes to scenario play. So much control, so much awesome shooting, why should I *try* to fight in hand to hand. What will happen is they will become very passive not advancing not making aggressive moves, then get trivially boxed out of a scoring zone and lose. When I first started playing Swans I got rolled up a few times because I wasn't playing with Scenarios in mind.

I will say this though, I almost never lose with my Swans by assassination. My losses generally follow the same recipe. I don't go first(or I play too passively on my first turn so it is like I didn't go first), I get boxed out of the zones, and I lose because I can't punch anything through to actually hold the zone. My list design is improving to counter that but it is a tougher adjustment then say Khador where i never have that problem.

My suggestion to your friend is buy a unit like Boomhowler, or Storm Guard, who's only purpose is to get in there and fight, and dial back the shooting. I find Boomhowler to make scenario play vastly easier because he wants to get into combat so I am aggressive.

[GreenJello]

however most of his models were still in his deployment zone shooting out while I'd been advancing.

I could see leaving the LGs, but the rest of his models? Why were they still in the deployment zone?

[perilsensitive]

Boomhowler with Jonas Murdoch will cure what ails ya. Arcane Shield, Snipe+Deadeye+Assault or Heightened Reflexe with 4+Tough are all great. They are awesome at holding the line.

[Ysthrall]

Cygnar do have some issues with every scenario that forces you to take and hold a point.

And an army that's optimised towards hanging back and guarding a point or two with firepower (Suppressing fire off Long Gunners isn't bad for that sort of thing) will have trouble if their opponents can bull through it and then prevent any sort of reaction.

I played that scenario, Kraye vs pDeneghra infantry swarm. I had infantry clearance by the bucketload, but I wasn't going to run up into the teeth of it and die 2nd turn, so I hung back to slaughter 60% of her troops. At which point she moved up, claimed the first control point, looked at my army poised for a devestating counter-attack, and feated. My turn was a complete wash-out.

There are some casters who are good at the "take/deny that point" (eNemo, pHaley, pStryker) scenarios, some that are good at "smash/move that thing" (eStryker), and some that are good at "sod the scenario, caster kill right now" (eStyker again and both Caines, I believe).

It is, alas, entirely possible to have a very hard match-up from the start. But this is a game where you never know who's won until dice-down. I've had games where I've lost only one model (my caster), and I've had games where I've won with the most unlikely results (Harbinger killed by Stormsmith, eKreoss killed by pHaley in combat).

Cygnar can win Scenarios. They do win scenarios. And sometimes, like every other faction, they run into a list and scenario combination that's going to give them a really hard time...

How do you think it would have changed if you'd been playing, say Gauntlet?

[Angelust]

Well obviously the answer is to stop playing Scenarios and go back to straight up caster kill games.

Then, when he starts winning by having Caine single-handedly attrition your army and teleport back, he can tell you to practice more and learn how to plan ahead for these kinds of things.

Then he'll start to use eHaley and will want to play Scenario games again.

[Blugger]

Cygnar has problems with scenarios because it generally has problems staying alive

That said, your friend's case is not helped by the fact that he brought two of the weakest and overpriced faction options in the book (trenchers and longgunners). His list seems unfocused and not exactly tailored to pCaine's strengths (deadeye, snipe and anti-infantry feat). ATGM (also great in scenario) and stormblades (though I suppose lances could substitute them adequately if you max out the unit) are more up the lieutenant's alley where deadeye is wasted on CRAs (due to already impossible accuracy) and trenchers (who hit about as hard as an anemic fly and also have CRA) while solos like gorman get absolutely crazy when caine starts throwing his non-faction specific buffs around.

The ironclad, while good, is a little suspect on Caine who can't really power it and support his army at the same time, thanks to a puny FOC 6.

Tell him to ditch the trenchers and get a real tarpit that won't break the back of his list by being pitifully overpriced for what they bring. Also, if possible, get him to toss the LGs. They'll work well every once or twice, but the moment lynch is removed from the game they become easy prey for just about anything stealthed or smart enough to hide from static LOS. Utterly trash defenses and inability to CRA into melee (and melee is going to happen thanks to objectives) only serve to weaken them further.

Basically, he shot himself in the shot when he built his list. Its inefficient with his character of choice, contains incredibly situational models (trenchers/longguners) and is built towards incredibly passive play (stand still and shoot). Its no surprise he can't really contest scenarios.

[phillipsjr4]

Thanks for the input, I'll post my list for anyone who's curious. It's an eKrueger ranged list focused on getting two turns of high pow, short ranged shooting during the feat turn- much more effective against melee-centric armies usually, I'm not sure I would have won against the Cygnar gun line if not for the scenario.

eKrueger (+5)
Warpwolf Stalker 10
Gorax 4
Celestial Fulcrum 9
Max Bloodtrackers 8
Woldstalkers 5
Druid Wilder 2
Gallows grove (2) 2

There was a question about the Stormlances, they were outside of a forest after having ran first turn, I moved a Grove into the forest with LOS out, double TK'ed 2 of them forward (after the first was Tk'ed he was within "reach" of the GG but I swung him 180 degrees so he wasn't engaging me for arc noding) then TK'ed the Stalker forward. Druid Wilder activated Sprint on Stalker, he trampled to within reach of the 2 Stormlances to circumvent not having LOS through the forest and bought an attack on each, back strike bonus and dice +1 on them. Skittered back to safety at the end of the activation inside the forest and opponent failed the CMD check on his remaining Stormlance which effectively took it out of action for the game.

I'm glad to hear from some that Cygnar can do well for scenarios, I'll direct him to this thread and see if he can take home some of the advice for listbuilding. I'm guessing the problem was the simple fact that he didn't build a list for scenario play, just took his regular weekly assassination list.

To another question the models that were still in his deployment zone: B13, Long Gunners, Trenchers first turn but they emerged from their hole second turn for the assault. I don't think the Ironclad moved more than a few inches either. Precursors had advanced and shield walled both turns but were quagmired a bit after I feated.

[Rochr]

Your friend is right, Cygnar does have a hard time winning scenarios. Especially in SR2012. I say this even though I might and probably will take a lot of schrapnel from my fellow cygnarans. We just do not have the staying power that is required to hold/contest scenarios.

[Blugger]

We definitely don't, but we have at least punch enough to make the frailer factions worry a little bit. There's little to no chance of taking on a sturdy khador, menoth, skrone or trolls army, but of all the factions we should at least be able to hurt circle a little bit.

A better optimized pCaine list less focused on passively waiting for the enemy to close would fare a lot better. It probably would never contest scenarios with eKrueger, but it could blow enough holes in the list to have a more than fair shot of assassinating the lock.

[bigbarry99]

Am I the only one who is not worried about scenario play with cygnar? Outside of cryx we have some of the fastest units/jacks in the game, and enough firing accuracy that we can engage on the way into the zone. If you couple that with the crazy ammounts of AD we can bring and most of our troopers inately high defense it means we can force the enemy into a limited engagement on their side of the scenario while limiting our losses with a few speedbump units or troopers. We can keep jacks from ever getting truly involved in the fight through tractor beam, disruption, thunderbolt shots, scramble, cortex frying, I can go on if anyone wants me to.

The simple fact is that we can excel at scenario play as long as we try to approach it from a cygnaran perspective, and not try to hammer in like those bearded khadoran barbarians.

[sleet01]

Except that Tractor Beam, Disruption, Scramble, Cortex Frying, and everything else I'm sure you were going to mention... don't work on warbeasts. And we really aren't that fast: most of our units are SPD 5 or 6, with only one SPD 7 unit (and they're really a support unit more than an offensive group). Our heavy 'jacks are SPD 5 or less. Hordes pretty much owns us across the board speed-wise. So against Hordes, at least, we can't really approach scenarios from a Cygnaran stance.

In the specific case the OP cited, yes, his opponent hosed himself. I frankly don't see the attraction of sitting in the deployment zone and shooting at incoming troops. It's not fun, it's too static, and it gives away all elements of maneuver to the enemy. People who play like that, especially in scenarios, deserve to lose.

[DemonCalibre]

Un....are we playing the same Cygnar?

Last time I checked we only had 2 AD units worth thinking about(Rangers and Commandos), and only one of them can fight in hand to hand(Commandos and only some of the time). Commandos while nice are really expensive, and honestly none of our AD have defensive stats that would I could good, let alone great.

I play a scenario every single game I play, and my experience doesn't match your even vaguely. Swans can do alright at scenarios, but it can be a struggle if you don't get the first turn, or your dealing with strong scenario lists. Not unwinnable but a struggle, particularly if your list is like the one in the OP which is actually bad at scenario play.

I will also point out while Cygnar has tons of jack control it has very little Beast control so while I can keep jacks shut down with disruption. We can't do that to beasts. Also Thunderbolt isn't a great counter tech I find it very rare, and very risky for my GMs to actually push people away with Thunderbolts. Why? because their infantry only needs to run in hand to hand, and my Gun Mages are in deep trouble.

While I appreciate your attitude, it really doesn't track with what I have been seeing with the game.

[cfox5012]

their is no place in this game for players like that (believe me i know a few). i absolutely agree with sanctjud and tell him to look at page 5 in the prime. certain casters are better in certain situations weather it be caster kill or scenarios. every faction/caster will at some point suffer from this. tell you friend to suck it up and that you cant always win in this game.

[Varius]

their is no place in this game for players like that (believe me i know a few). i absolutely agree with sanctjud and tell him to look at page 5 in the prime. certain casters are better in certain situations weather it be caster kill or scenarios. tell you friend to suck it up and that you cant always win in this game.

Its hard enough getting people to play this game without that kind of attitude.

[Wanderingalleycat]

Well, so far with the SR 2012 scenarios, I have had very little trouble with cygnar honestly. We have some great answers for it. Yes some of them require a bit of merc help, but...thats what they built us for unfortunately.Some of those answers are :

Gun mages. 7 thunderbolt shots,and if your really going for the gold...give them a cyclone jackmarshaled. Whats that you say? up to 13 thunderbolt shots in a turn? Go nuts and give them 2 cyclones, and they get to deal with up to 19 thunderbolt shots a turn. Why yes, I would like to knock your entire army off the control point, thank you for asking.

pStryker. His feat turn puts even our weak guys up to the level of heavy infantry. You don't need to hold the point the entire game, just long enough to score.

Boomhowler and Murdoch. Ok..so you gotta hold the line with some guys? send in these guys. Give them an arcane shield if you need to.

Remember...holding a point, only takes a 1pt solo, or half of a unit.

Sloan. We have one of the sneakiest options available for scenario play with her refuge spell.

Facing a caster with lots of control spells? Well whistle up your favorite religious fanatics and bring on the precursors,they move fast, and aren't terrible at holding the line.

Have to get your opponent out of an area and thunderbolt shots not doing it for you? Try forge guard. Not only are these tough little buggers, but they can knock people back and around like you wouldn't believe.

Scenarios are about board control. And that is something Cygnar is great at. You just have to approach it from that viewpoint. So you say your opponent has to get to a certain point? stack 4 covering fire templates from 2 cyclones on it. set them so they overlap, so he gets hit with them all.

[Temoinlanuit]

Gunline Cygnar has a lot of trouble with scenarios.

From the very beginning starting with list composition, player has to be prepared for SR. Cygnar has a lot of great shooting, so it's tempting to take many points of it, to support those units, etc... which can be a trap when it comes to holding ground.

Especially with a caster like pCaine, player has to put effort to balance out the holding ground part of the list.

[jdeckert]

I refuse to play pCaine without a scenario. It just isn't fun. He's not a good scenario caster, but at that point it basically becomes a race - can I assassinate you before you can win on scenario points. It results in games that are much more interesting for both players. I think the weaknesses mentioned are true - Cygnar is a little lacking in speed and staying power, both of which are really nice in scenarios. But Cygnar does have quite a bit of board control, which is also a big deal in scenario. Gun mages can push enemies out of zones, disrupted 'jacks are usually much slower, the Cyclone's templates and the B13 template can dictate enemy troop movements.

I think that I do a little worse with my Cygnar in scenario than with my Circle or Khador, but not by a lot. I think Cygnar's has enough options to not lose on scenario and then pick up wins via caster kill.

[gelfy]

Have you all forgotten E Haley's Feat. then theres boomhowlers as said above. or the pirate ball which when going first are great at jamming to get that early point. his list is horrible imo to begin with. tell your friend if he wants to do better in scenarios. he needs to tailor his lists a bit for it.

[sleet01]

Of course we haven't forgotten eHaley, gelfy. But she's not the be-all, end-all of scenario play. There are several scenarios where she's just not going to be as effective as a more offensive 'caster. Likewise Boomhowlers; they're a great option but there are scenarios where you want more mobility or more offensive power.

I agree that the OP's friend's list is not well-tailored to take-and-hold scenarios, but it certainly wouldn't just roll right over if he moved up and tried to actually contest the objectives with the LGs providing backup.

[GreenJello]

I agree that the OP's friend's list is not well-tailored to take-and-hold scenarios, but it certainly wouldn't just roll right over if he moved up and tried to actually contest the objectives with the LGs providing backup.

Exactly. Honestly, it doesn't seem like a terrible list, maybe not perfect, but holding EVERYTHING back is a surefire way to lose the scenario. Further, the only thing that shouldn't move are the LGs.

[phreaker187]

Your friend is right, Cygnar does have a hard time winning scenarios. Especially in SR2012. I say this even though I might and probably will take a lot of schrapnel from my fellow cygnarans. We just do not have the staying power that is required to hold/contest scenarios.

I doubt any Cygnar player can disagree with this. I played scenario last night and was crushed. Give me a straight up caster kill brawl and I can win almost every time.

Scenario vs. Casual is 2 different games all together.

A combination of paper thin armor and Hordes players makes Swans cry in scenario play.

[Sanctjud]

I played scenario last night and was crushed. Give me a straight up caster kill brawl and I can win almost every time.

I guess tha's where the problem is...balance. The first sentance doesn't really tell us much, while the second sentance just makes your case for having no-scenarios sound worse.

There HAS to be some mechanism to make someone commit, else these games would take painfully long and ONLY benefit the person with more ranged. As a fast paced, in your face, balls to the walls, skirimish game... the point is to promote meeting in the middle and commitment of your forces/caster/locks.

[phreaker187]

I guess tha's where the problem is...balance. The first sentance doesn't really tell us much, while the second sentance just makes your case for having no-scenarios sound worse.

There HAS to be some mechanism to make someone commit, else these games would take painfully long and ONLY benefit the person with more ranged. As a fast paced, in your face, balls to the walls, skirimish game... the point is to promote meeting in the middle and commitment of your forces/caster/locks.

The solution is pretty easy, make some scenarios based on primarily ranged/magic attacks and not so much on melee. Then you'd run into the problem of every other faction crying.

It's a slippery slope.

[Sanctjud]

The solution is pretty easy, make some scenarios based on primarily ranged/magic attacks and not so much on melee. Then you'd run into the problem of every other faction crying.

It's a slippery slope.

Kinda like Supply and Demand? Minimal resources to score a point, with a focus on defending your own turf (prob. through ranged/magic).

[gelfy]

their is no place in this game for players like that (believe me i know a few). i absolutely agree with sanctjud and tell him to look at page 5 in the prime. certain casters are better in certain situations weather it be caster kill or scenarios. every faction/caster will at some point suffer from this. tell you friend to suck it up and that you cant always win in this game.

I know this does sound a little harsh but PP does condone maning up. and to that broski i salute you.

This is what i see is the factions biggest... and i mean Biggest problem.....




Most of us dont get enough games in to learn how to control the battlefield....





so lets stop the WAAHHHH WAAHHHHHING and lets get on the table and try and find some solutions.


Lets get some gnarly batreps up. listing where you think you went right and wrong.




Lets Not CONDONE THE WAHHHHHH WAHHHS.



love
Gelfy.



PS ..

No Wahs will be heard form The Gelf

[leo_neil316]

Am I the only one who is not worried about scenario play with cygnar? Outside of cryx we have some of the fastest units/jacks in the game,

Umm. What? Our units are pretty slow dude. Take, for example, the fact that we are the only faction in the game without a speed 6+ with reach melee unit. And no units with native pathfinder.

As for jacks? Well we're faster than menoth and..... nope, just menoth (yes our stuff says SPD 5 and Skorne and Khador say SPD 4, doesn't stop them getting their speed 4 stuff charging as far or further than our speed 5 stuff).

[doom_reaver]

As for jacks? Well we're faster than menoth and..... nope, just menoth (yes our stuff says SPD 5 and Skorne and Khador say SPD 4, doesn't stop them getting their speed 4 stuff charging as far or further than our speed 5 stuff).

now in all fairness if skorne didnt have the plethora of movement shennanigans they'd literally be a running joke. and i think we're pretty much on par with khador for jack movement buffs. both nemos, e strykers feat gets that little bit more out of them, Kraye does a great job too. they have irusk, karchev, vlads feat and strakov i think.

but when it comes to movement buffs kraye wins hands down for us the potential to have a fully loaded stormclad pimp slap someone 14" from its starting point is huge alpha strike potential.

when playing scenarios I always find myself using a full unit of sword knights who get AS thrown on them and defensive line so a solid level of armour then the piper makes them tough. its not an ideal solution but gives them some legitimate staying power. then they also are a credible melee threat when you synergise them properly with their flank bonus and if its e stryker then pos charge on the jack makes the sword knights a very scary prospect for people.

IMO Cygnar can be a good scenario faction but its just not as intuitive as it is for others.

with that being said i'd give my left jewel for speed six stormguard.

[cfox5012]

Well said gelfy! I have only won a handful of games however with each loss I take something from it. This includes miss placing models, forgetting certain rules/abilities, ect. however at the end of each game I shake my opponents hand then ask if he is ready for round 2!

[Blugger]

To be fair, e/pnemo, Kraye and eHaley make our jacks pretty darn fast (though eHaley could also 'speed up' solos, individual infantry, and BEs)

Our infantry are only ever going to reach average/low SPD and cygnar has no SPD buffs for them outside of constance's CC and eStryker's feat. I suppose this is meant to balance the extra threat range afforded by guns, and the fact that some casters (the haleys, really, and maybe eStryker's rebuke) can slow down the enemy enough to afford a decent chance at an alpha strike.

[Dan from Chicago]

Uh ... Rangers have pathfinder native ... And we have in faction support which grants it too now

[Sideshow Lucifer]

I don't care one bit about scenarios with Cygnar. I tend to play a lot of melee Cygnar, which usually throws off my opponents and it's actually useful in scenario play. Sword knights and a crap-load of lightning tend to help me when models are bunched together.
We also have a few good casters in scenario play, eHaley, eStryker, the Nemo casters, and our new Marrowyn caster.

[kay_dawg]

Tell your friend Cygnar has no problems at winning via scenarios. LGS had a tourney recently, Steamroller Rules ( but only 1 list ) and scenarios. We played 3 games each, I went 2-1, getting both my wins via scenario. The loss came vs a Gator army, since I was gun heavy his list negated my Pew Pewing

Siege
2x Defenders
Reinholdt


ATM + Dude
B13
Full SKs with The Piper

[Zaruthustran]

I've had a lot of success with a Cyclone and B13. Two templates of "don't more here" are pretty wonderful for scenario play. And if something is planted where you want to go, pick it up and throw it.

Add a Centurian and it gets even better. Run it onto the point, then activate its shield. Things will have a hard time getting to it, especially if you lay a few templates down in front of it.

Or buy a Storm Strider. Park a Shielded strider onto a point and stick Arlan (and his wrench) behind it. Watch as the enemy literally bounces off.