What happened during the invasion of Llael?

[ShadowFighter88]

This may've been mentioned in the Mk2 core book, but what the hell happened to make Stryker change so much? The background on pStryker's entry in the core book and Cygnar faction book imply that he's been able to maintain his idealism despite the realities of war, but eStryker's background starts by mentioning how 'the carnage he witnessed during the invasion of Llael scourged him clean of his youthful ideals.' Now, I'm no expert, but I get the feeling something severe must have happened to him during the invasion that tipped him over the edge, but I haven't been able to find mention of it in the core book or faction book. In-fact, I can't find much on the invasion of Llael at all.

Was this mentioned in the Mk1 books, or have I just missed the info? All I know about Llael's invasion was that Khador came in and did so well because the Llaelese government was a total shambles. What else happened there?

[Ysthrall]

During the invasion of Llael, with Menoth also sticking their oar in along the Cygnar border, poor Stryker was in the middle trying to be a nice guy...

The relevant fluff you want starts in the Escalation book. There's a side quest for Cygnar (called "Heart of Darkness," a nice Joeseph Conrad reference), that's basically Stryker vs a squad of cleansers vs a squad of winter guard. As the Menites and Khadorans are butchering refugees and killing each other and burning down the church with the survivors in, Stryker has to stop them both.

The epilogue fluff as well:Stryker to Leto: "No amount of description can convey the most remote idea of the heardships I've seen. I have witnessed horrible things that I will never forget as long as I live. Such... utter disregard for human life! I have observed such greed and hatred... such willingness to destry everything before them in their own self-serving goals."

He basically says that he can't go in being an honourable and mercifful Morrowan warrior any more, and if Leto sends him back to battle, he's going to be a bloodthirsty vengeance monster.

So what gets him? A shattering of his illusions that his opposite numbers have any regard for things like honour, mercy and non-combatants. Seeing too many atrocities. And good old fashioned post-traumatic stress disorder, if I had to guess.

MK1 Stryker is a nice guy. Escalation he becomes bitter and vicious (his old mentor Magnus would be proud), Apotheosis he's a pyscopath, Superiority he's leading the pogroms, Legends he gets his head back together and decides saving the church full of Menites from dying in flames is more important than killing Feora. And then he lightens up. A bit.

[ShadowFighter88]

Ahk. Might see if I can scrounge up some old copies of those books somewhere but if I can't, that summary answers my main questions. Wonder if any of that'll make it into the video game's single-player campaign? The gameplay they've shown was in Riversmet during the invasion and it'd be a good way to bring us newcomers up to speed with the older fluff.

[Ysthrall]

I started playing before Legends came out, and my LGS retained all the books. I've come across them since, in 2nd hand piles at gaming conventions etc, for minimal cost. Because all theuir rules are no longer relevant.

...Looking through the fluff and missions at the end of the (frickin huge) Escalation campaign, they also nicely foreshadowed the appearence of the Circle of Orboros, and the Skorne.

[Chasu]

Here's hoping for a compilation book of fiction and art!

[ShockFist]

Here's hoping for story novels instead of rule/newmodels/fluff books

[hausdorff space]

The relevant fluff you want starts in the Escalation book. There's a side quest for Cygnar (called "Heart of Darkness," a nice Joeseph Conrad reference), that's basically Stryker vs a squad of cleansers vs a squad of winter guard. As the Menites and Khadorans are butchering refugees and killing each other and burning down the church with the survivors in, Stryker has to stop them both.

IIRC wasn't it also a village that had helped the Cygnarians as they passed through; with the general understanding at the time being that villages, churches and the like were seen as concientious observers to the wars between the nations as opposed to active participants.

What really boiled Strykers blood was the fact it was a Menite village, and Feora burnt it to the ground for helping what she considered to be the enemies of the Protectorate.
With that he decided all Menites must go.

[Griffin839]

There are no unwounded soldiers. Its that classic story. Idealistic and honorable man is driven to become the very thing he despises.

[cannonball]

Also what was Cygnar doing while Khador was planning and then invading Lael? If nothing then surely a lapse in Cygnar intelligence and to the extreme, neglect?

Lael, an important buffer state, trading partner and near dependent on Cygnar and the Swans let it fall?

And if neglect then surely it could be argued the Lion coupe has been an eventual failure? Vinter, to be king again....

[Madhiggins]

it's not really fair to blame Cygnar on the plight of Lael. even with all it's robots and magic, long distance communication is still kind of hard to come by(as far as i know) in the warmachine world. so advanced notice of another country's intentions aren't really going to be common place aka you don't know they're coming till they're almost at your doorstep. and during the invasion itself, didn't Cygnar have forces in Lael but at the same time was fighting several huge battles elsewhere thus splitting their resources? it's the same plight Cygnar's been dealing with for so long now, they're powerful but they're smack dab in the middle of all the other factions with people taking pot shots at them all the time, plus they have their own huge internal problems with people still supporting Vinter.

[leo_neil316]

Also what was Cygnar doing while Khador was planning and then invading Lael?

Attempting to fortify Lael while compeating with Lael's own corrupt government and fighting off attacks from Cryx and Menoth and Skorne.

It didn't go too well. See there now only being three members of the black 13th.

[Ysthrall]

As I understand it, at that point in the fluff Cygnar had several issues:

1) They didn't expect the Khadorans to strike in winter. A depressingly common delusion amongst agricultural and (just-post) agricultrural nations is that "summer is the campaign season". Khador realised their industrial capacity and railways allowed them to overcome this before Cygnar did. Nice one Irusk.

2) While they did have a lot of troops stationed in Llael, and reinforcements with Nemo on the border, these wern't entirely helpful. The Llael based troops were out of position, and the reinforcemtns didn't get the message till late due to extensive efforts by the Khadorans to stop anything getting out. Telegraph systems are still rare in the Iron kingdoms, and across the border, it was a horseback courier job. Widowmakers love horseback couriers...

3) With his long range ballistic artillery, plenty of warjacks, and Vlad turning up to help ("How many Beserkers did you bring, Prince Tzepesci?" "All of them, of course..."), Irusk was able to stomp face across a large chunk of Llael with minimal opposition.

4) Cygnar tried to intervene. It lost a lot of men in Llael, and many of the survivors are still trapped behind the lines, and have signed on with Ashlynn.

5) I beleive that much of the internal Llaese military was handicapped by their leader being an idiot, if not a traitor (see also point 2). Read the fluff for Anastasia, she certainly thinks he's a traitor. It's quite difficult to defend a country when your head of state is working against you.

6) Irusk is, unfortuantely for everyone he faces, a military genius. Despite the battles at Riversmeet and other locations in Llael, he managed to pull off one of those things that only appears rarely in fiction (and even more fleetingly in reality); a short decisive war. Well done Irusk.

Cygnar made preperations and had some contigencies in place, but was caught by surprise, hampered by its ally, outmanouvered by it's opponent and then stabbed up by Cryx (who sent a nice plague to the party) and the Menites (who insisted on a barbeque).

Belief that the other guys are calm reasonable people who don't want a huge war? Yes, religeously motivated AFAICT. Failure in Cygnaran intelligence? Quite possibly. Neglect? Hardly.

(required to have the a good beating for the story campaign, urg, yeah.)

[cannonball]

Thanks for your thoughts and the background.

That all said if I were Magnus I'd be pushing the angle of a weak upsur King pushing Cygnar to the brink though misadventure and incompetence. Either a return to a strongman like Vinter (pushing the nostalgia of times when things were more certain) or a legitimate hier to replace a waviering King.

Also with all this said could it be argued that Leto also dropped the ball with the failure to hold the peace with the Trollbloods? Lael gone, attacked on all sides you don't make new enemies.

[leo_neil316]

And you think Vinter would be better? *sighs*

Vinter is a **** ruler. We can tell. See he's been in charge of two entire countries at different times AND a conglomeration of traitors and malcontents who want to put him on the throne.

And he treated them all so badly that they didn't turn on him, they noticed he'd been ****ing their **** up all along.

All our stormtech, telegraphs, freaking submarines in the navy? All that is because of Leto. The gunmages? The militant order was formed because Vinter was having any wizard who didn't work directly for him -murdered in their beds-. Some of our warcasters left service rather than work for the bugger.

And the 'scharde island invasion'? The bit people always bring up as 'how Vinter proved he was awesome by beating Cryx!'?

That would be the giant feint cryx launched so that they could move enough troops and supplies across the cygnaran border and set up the biggest city in the iron kingdoms under the thornwood to attack cygnar from.

Wrath? All Vinters fault.

But yeah! Lets have a got at Leto instead!

(incidently, Vinter wouldn't have lifted a finger to help Lael, Khador woulda taken it a loooong time ago).

[cannonball]

Also on the wire or telegram angle. Weren't Khador killing off any noted leaders in Lael long before the invasion? If I were Cygnar intelligence surely shouldn't this have been a red flag and an indicator of a likely invasion?

Also the whole "train transport to the front lines surprising Cygnar" defence of Leto. Don't Cygnar have spies in Khador (ala the Cold war)? Shouldn't railyards and mass movements of troops and wargear to the Lael boarder been noted? I ask as I think more Cygnarians should be aware of the failures of Leto. A strong leader is needed, and quickly!

[cannonball]

"All ourstormtech, telegraphs, freaking submarines in the navy? All that is because of Leto."

Can we be entirely certain that this wouldnt have happened if Leto "wasn't" in charge? Aslo warcasyers leaving? Surely Magnus leaving as well as Midwinter and Saxon is an issue to?

[Rochr]

I like Stryker as bitter, dark and vicious... Darth Stryker! Cygnar needs one of those dark gloomy casters.

[SpectralTime]

Can we be entirely certain that this wouldnt have happened if Leto "wasn't" in charge? Aslo warcasyers leaving? Surely Magnus leaving as well as Midwinter and Saxon is an issue to?

Respectively, yes and not... really...

In the first, Nemo had a direct hand in the storm knights, at least, and the rest was a product of Leto's research budget. Vinter didn't believe in this whole "high-tech" problem solving, and tended to sneer at problems you couldn't bury in manpower or fix himself.

Look, are you saying Magnus is worth Nemo, Kraye, Caine, Strangewayes, Runewood, Lady Laddermore, the Squire, the Thunderhead, Gallant, and Darius? Combined? Remember, about half of these won't be a part of Cygnar's much-less-advanced military with that man in charge, being the product of Leto's negotiation with religious groups Vinter wanted dead, or of older casters outright refusing to work in a military with him at the head.

No one here's saying that Vinter isn't a bada**. The man single handedly conquered an empire, after all. But trying to say that that automatically makes him a good king is ludicrous. If Vinter was such a quote-unquote "strong, steady-handed ruler," then why did his OWN BROTHER find it necessary to oust him in a coup de tat? Taking a bunch of terrible situations completely out of context that NO ONE would have done well in, then holding them up as "proof" that Vinter would have done better proves less than nothing about his position.

[cannonball]

Fair arguments although do you think Khador would be so expansionist when facing Vinter at the helm rather than Leto?

[MagnusTheGobber]

I like Stryker as bitter, dark and vicious... Darth Stryker! Cygnar needs one of those dark gloomy casters.

Now, I'll have to paint up a Squire with blue + white and a gold Ol' Rowdy. And eStryker's sword will be painted red.

Edit: Nevertheless, this thread has made me realise that Stryker is a more complex character than I first thought. I'll have to read up more now.

[SpectralTime]

Fair arguments although do you think Khador would be so expansionist when facing Vinter at the helm rather than Leto?

...Yes. That particular situation has been building for longer than either country has existed in its present form, and Vinter, whatever his merits as a general, is not near Irusk's equal.

Now, I'll have to paint up a Squire with blue + white and a gold Ol' Rowdy. And eStryker's sword will be painted red.

...I don't get it.

[MagnusTheGobber]

...I don't get it.

[cannonball]

...Yes. That particular situation has been building for longer than either country has existed in its present form, and Vinter, whatever his merits as a general, is not near Irusk's equal.

Do you think Vinters spies and scouts would have let Khador so easily infiltrate and influence Lael's general's and politic though?

Would the Trollbloods have rebelled if Vinter was still on the throne?

I guess I'm angling the line of Cygnar taking the lesser of two evils. Ala have Vinter and a degee of stability with the strongman or have Leto and all of the internal/external struggles we see to date. Ala Leto's move was rash and perhaps other actions could have been taken.

[Knight]

Cygnar needs one of those dark gloomy casters.

I think most of Cygnar casters are rather grim. Darious, Commander Stryker, Constance are rather passive, all the rest seem to be driven by something or have a personal vendetta against someone. I certainly don't desire to see someone like Reznik or Butcher, if anything I'd like to see more casters like Harkevich.

[SpectralTime]

Do you think Vinters spies and scouts would have let Khador so easily infiltrate and influence Lael's general's and politic though?

Would the Trollbloods have rebelled if Vinter was still on the throne?

I guess I'm angling the line of Cygnar taking the lesser of two evils. Ala have Vinter and a degee of stability with the strongman or have Leto and all of the internal/external struggles we see to date. Ala Leto's move was rash and perhaps other actions could have been taken.

*shrug* Leto's got spies and Black Ops too, ya know. And they'd already DONE it in Vinter's time, so my answer's yes to the first one.

The trollkin situation's a little more complicated. Bluntly, no, I do not think they'd be as well-armed or organized if Vinter was in power... but they also wouldn't have Madrak holding them back, nor would they be able to as effectively serve as a buffer between Cygnar and the Skorne, Khador, the Protectorate, the Cryxians running around in the Thornwood, etc. It's a bit of a wash.

And, well, the very fact that there WAS a coup demonstrates the folly of assuming blithely that a strongman will always bring total stability. Cygnar would be no better off, militarily, save for Vinter's willingness to fight as dirty as Khador, and a good deal worse off than if Leto were in charge. In short, I think Leto's shortcomings are more the result of his being poorly written to accommodate the needs of the plot than his being incompetent compared to his older brother.

R2-D2 and C3PO

*smacks own face* Oh, duh. Sorry. All the Darth Stryker jokes too... should have seen that coming.

Cygnar casters with a vendetta

Kraye's a pretty nice guy too. In the troll book, he goes out of his way to help them fight Skorne, and openly tells Gunnbjorn that the massacres are the fault of that pro-Vinter loyalist and all-around b*****d, Lord Laddermore, attempting to destabilize the situation more than the king himself.

Oh for a decent republic to get with the noble-chopping. These lot know all too well that in a corrupt, Vinter-style monarchy, all you've got to do to get away with murder is be the king's friend and/or useful political tool.

[FearLord]

Fair arguments although do you think Khador would be so expansionist when facing Vinter at the helm rather than Leto?

Vinter's paranoia and insular reign are why Khador was able to build up its military strength and technology to a level that this could have been achieved.

Khador was able to take Llael before Cygnar was able to build a reaction due to a combo of surprise attacking in Winter and lighting warfare devised by Irusk that allowed them to win decisive victories quickly. Llael was also rotten to the core with an inadequate and traditionalist military bolstered by to many mercs who didn't care enough about the country and corrupt rulers. Irusk new this, and new that the country could be taken in the timescales required.

[Octavius_Maximus]

If Vinter was in charge, Lael would fall either to the hands of Khador, because Lael isnt called Cygnar and thus isnt worth protecting. OR it would fall to Cygnar, because the Laellese were too weak to protect themselves, and Cygnar already had forces in there.

[PG_Draxos]

Anyone else think he is kinda like Arthat from Warcraft 3? (Lets not go into WoW, just stick with the good games). He is a person who loves his people so much and follows a faith of knowledge and protection but when he sees the people he loves and fights for suffer he can't take it and in an effort to protect them he becomes so over zealous that he eventually becomes insane in an attempt to do the right thing?

[Octavius_Maximus]

I always saw Stryker like that, to be honest.

[PG_Draxos]

I always saw Stryker like that, to be honest.

Hold, so let me get this straight. Not only are you agreeing with me but not even a hint of arguement? Is the internet broke? What happened?

[veragor1206]

One thing that has always bothered me about the fluff is the fact that Khador has been reported to be a very poor country yet they seem to be advancing their military at an astounding rate. New warjacks, Collossals, New weapons for troops, ect.. How does a bankrupt nation advance so fast and pump out such a strong military, support said military and proceed to constantly expand through warfare in such a short amount of time?

[hausdorff space]

One thing that has always bothered me about the fluff is the fact that Khador has been reported to be a very poor country yet they seem to be advancing their military at an astounding rate. New warjacks, Collossals, New weapons for troops, ect.. How does a bankrupt nation advance so fast and pump out such a strong military, support said military and proceed to constantly expand through warfare in such a short amount of time?

The spoils of war?

[Octavius_Maximus]

One thing that has always bothered me about the fluff is the fact that Khador has been reported to be a very poor country yet they seem to be advancing their military at an astounding rate. New warjacks, Collossals, New weapons for troops, ect.. How does a bankrupt nation advance so fast and pump out such a strong military, support said military and proceed to constantly expand through warfare in such a short amount of time?

Germany between the wars, then suddenly WW2 happened.

Not just that, but Khador isnt necessarily a *poor* country. It doesnt have the affluence of Cygnar, but because its an insular country, it can choose to not be affected by outside costs too much.

Consider Africa, where much of its areas are extraordinarily poor, and yet they can still afford weapons and ammunition. This is generally because the micro economy there does not take into account the worlds macro economy. I mean, if your selling a gun, you wouldnt charge a price noone could afford, right?

Also, Khadoran technology is very rugged and versatile. So while a Juggernaut might be 5 times more expensive than a charger, it might last as long as 5 chargers (if not longer).

Also, yes, the spoils of war also has affected their wealth, you can imagine taxation and tithing could realy help.

[ShadowFighter88]

You know - when I originally asked about the invasion of Llael, I was not expecting to kick up a debate like this.

And I still can't find the bleedin' books! Only place I know of that has them is Defiant Gaming (the website I've ordered most of my stuff for the game off) and I don't know how many of each book they've got in stock (probably charge a bit for them too - what with the books being out of print and all).

[SpectralTime]

One thing that has always bothered me about the fluff is the fact that Khador has been reported to be a very poor country yet they seem to be advancing their military at an astounding rate. New warjacks, Collossals, New weapons for troops, ect.. How does a bankrupt nation advance so fast and pump out such a strong military, support said military and proceed to constantly expand through warfare in such a short amount of time?

I always figured it was because Khador is poor in the sense that the average Khadoran is poor, not in the sense that the country in aggregate is. Remember, the nation is positively infested with Kazay nobles and other parasites.

[ShockFist]

One thing that has always bothered me about the fluff is the fact that Khador has been reported to be a very poor country yet they seem to be advancing their military at an astounding rate. New warjacks, Collossals, New weapons for troops, ect.. How does a bankrupt nation advance so fast and pump out such a strong military, support said military and proceed to constantly expand through warfare in such a short amount of time?

The same reason why Cygnar is supposed to technologically and economically advanced, but they still get their butts handed to them by everyone. And when they do win, their victories are very short lived. Khador must just have Plot armor I guess.

[MagnusTheGobber]

Perhaps "technology" in the IK is not advanced enough to be a sustainable competitive advantage. In this sense, high tech stuff, such as Lightning Calling and intricate guns are perhaps finicky, fiddly, and require much maintenance to run at full efficiency. A mace can be dragged through the mud, and still can be used by an untrained monkey to smash someone's face. A Longgunner's Repeating Rifle, or a Stormsmith's Lightning Staff, perhaps not so much. They could be used at the outset to kill 20 Mace-wielding dudes, at range, in the dark, while the user is blindfolded, but perhaps for only an hour or so, or until ammo runs out. So technology may be a bit of a crutch as opposed to a true point of superiority. Maybe.

[PG_Draxos]

Where is it said Khador is poor? I mean yeah Cygnar is off better for the average living expenses and comfort and such but poor?

[veragor1206]

Where is it said Khador is poor? I mean yeah Cygnar is off better for the average living expenses and comfort and such but poor?

I dont have any references to point out but almost every book mentions Cygnar being financially stable and Khador is generalized as a much poorer country. I believe this is the main reason they built and equipped their jacks/troops with so much armor. I understand why Cygnar is in their current situation, being pressed and attacked at all four corners tends to spread your forces rather thin. Khador taking Llael out in such a short amount of time is quite believable, and goes with the Blitzkrieg style warfare they employed. However taking Northguard out with basically the Greatbears, Irusk and Karchev seems virtually impossible.

My question is this... Is Cygnar planning to retake Northguard reestablish their former border and eventually fight on into Llael's freedom?

[Octavius_Maximus]

Read the attack on northguard again.

The great bears attacked in cover and provided a terror/distraction while kayazy take out the heavy artillery, while sorschas element pulled away haleys forces to protect karchevs (false) attack on Nemo.

The Kayazy destroyed a wall accidentally, the breach was exploited by the entire khador force which moved in and took the keep before Cygnar could really retaliate.