Captain Farilor & Standard - models are posted.

[Bambamdan]

I'm not convinced i'll be taking this guy. Not on initial release anyway. My main use for my legion is keeping the melee unit in front of my opponents army from charging targets of his choice. Once his charge move ends at the legion wall, what happens next is of secondary concern to me. The legion could live, lose a few and trigger vengeance, or be wiped out and it affects my game plan very little. To add a 3 point UA to a cheap unit may improve their survivability and their combat effectiveness, but that's not why I brought the unit along and if I were to field the UA, they would have to achieve a lot more than they currently do. (At the moment they die to mcthralls before going in the pot. If i take the UA, they'll have to survive, cos if they can't go in the pot the necro-surgeon might get them...)

[Neutralyze]

Roadhouse are you aware that the legionnaires can combined melee attack with Farilor's weaponmaster attack?

You really have your heart set on that, dont you? how many are really going to get to combat to combine with him? whats the ideal situation for the massive CMA to take place? why combine more with him when another CMA overall would contribute more damage?

[Menite Ninja]

Nomatter how cool a model is there will always be detractors. He looks like he is posing for the cover of a Christian album in domination. His model is dynamic as all hell. He looks good. As a circle player I am jealous. I showed him to my buddy who just started legion and he was rendered speechless. Good job privateer press.

[alchahest]

legionnaires without farilor are a 4/6 unit that does something
legionnaires with farilor are a 7/9 unit that does something different.

[Roadhouse]

Roadhouse are you aware that the legionnaires can combined melee attack with Farilor's weaponmaster attack?

I am of aware of this, but I fail to see how that changes the unit into a melee monster. In all likely hood they get charged, quite a few will survive, they will vengeance and MAYBE kill some of the stuff that's engaging them. Farilor will likely kill whatever is tying him up but the rest of his unit is likely still engaged. You end up with a 3-4 man CMA and then wonder why your throw away unit is trying to do heavy lifting.

[PG_Nemlock]

legionnaires without farilor are a 4/6 unit that does something
legionnaires with farilor are a 7/9 unit that does something different.

Lies! Heresy! This is unpossible! :P

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with options.

[Xnath]

Some good options for 3 points to take along with legionnnaires.

Spawning vessel.
Captain Farilor UA.
Gatorman witch doctor.

[Necra-Chi]

I am of aware of this, but I fail to see how that changes the unit into a melee monster. In all likely hood they get charged, quite a few will survive, they will vengeance and MAYBE kill some of the stuff that's engaging them. Farilor will likely kill whatever is tying him up but the rest of his unit is likely still engaged. You end up with a 3-4 man CMA and then wonder why your throw away unit is trying to do heavy lifting.

Not if you have placed them in defensive line vengeance formation. Then you have the choice of whether you go after infantry or back up and then charge something bigger.

[Lanz]

If Farilor gets his CMA-Weaponmaster on a normal attack, it won't be very impressive. It would have to be a charge to be worth much, in which case just CMA with 2-3 guys will be pretty nice. PS14 weaponmasters can do a number. I guess the point is if the unit is tied up with a big 'jack or something, and they may as well be using CMA for damage, then they may as well CMA with Farilor and get that extra dice.

Though cleave isn't much use. There aren't many cases where that will come into play where it's worth stacking CMA that high, but you're likely to actually kill the target then have another target close enough to CMA with what's left and have that be worth it too.

It's something that might occasionally be useful, but I couldn't imagine depending on it.

[Szary]

I love the model, hate the horn but will mod it so no problem and regret that standard bearer doesn’t have melee attack (standard looks like a decent weapon ). Also the pose of the Farilor is awesome.

[Roadhouse]

Not if you have placed them in defensive line vengeance formation. Then you have the choice of whether you go after infantry or back up and then charge something bigger.

Defensive line vengeance formation...


Is this some special rule that allows them to ignore what is engaging them? Legionnaires either have to run to engage or get charged, in either case they will not be able to extricate themselves completely with Mat 6 Pow 10 vengeance.

[Necra-Chi]

You don't know what vengeance formation is? You put sacrificials in front threatening free strikes and the rest behind, all in pairs or threes for defensive line. The opponent has to get rid of the front two if he wants to engage the rest, and with iron zeal, set defense and maybe even a buff or occulatation that is harder than it sounds. If they do get through that, you get vengeance with whatever is left.

[Roadhouse]

I assumed that is what you meant but your phrasing tickled me. I'm not saying that the Legionnaires aren't more survivable with Farilor, I'm saying they aren't a bigger threat. He only adds a Pow 10 weapon master with cleave to the unit and just like with Proteus, I am of the opinion the UA would've been better without the facade of high damage output (though you will get more Mat 6 Pow 10 vengeance) with a more reasonable price tag. In the 9 point bracket the unit competes with Striders, Scythean, and the Throne; beyond being hard to remove for 1 turn they don't preform any role that the other 3 don't preform better. If Set Defense let models contacted by tramples make free strikes or treated the models as medium based for the purposes of tramples I'd be singing a different tune, but the reality is Farilor wants the unit to be more than just "Run at X then die" when that's all they really needed to be, imho.

[Helvetica]

the model isn't fitting to the style in which they would fight. apart from that it's fine. I like the standard.

[Necra-Chi]

I never intend for my models to die. I expect the opponent to make that happen. If i get benefits from them dying that is just an added benefit. If their job is to block damage to the rest of my army then lasting longer makes them better at that job, not weaker.

[Neutralyze]

Necri,

i am still confused on your stance on them. you say they are crap tarpit and cant really do much damage then say they are great with fairlor with iron zeal but it still doesnt help their damage output. proper spacing, regardless of iron zeal, is what always allowed the most of them to stay alive and get vengence etc.

[Necra-Chi]

Yes with proper formation you can get more out of the basic unit. The problem is that shooting trumps formations. Its like Farilor's detractors on these boards never play against shooting or something. The fact that key models can be shot out of the way, to mess up their formations for receivng charges, and to make gaps to charge through to your valuable troops, makes them not very good at the cheap tarpit role that people keep talking about for them. When i play them i try to get more out of them than that. They are too slow to actually screen my melee warbeasts anyway. I get them to guard a flank, or to hold an area instead. Or i try trick the opponent into giving them a vengeance speed buff and then run them in to engage. I am saying that they are not very good at he role people keep saying they only want to use them for. Farilor's turn of iron zeal, and permanent set defense, and some defense a gainst spells makes them more of a standalone unit like i want my infantry to be.

It isn't just his personal melee damage output that makes the unit more of a threat, it is the fact that they last longer.

Against opponents with no guns or spells going at them, then yes the base unit can do great stuff. I had quite an interesting losing game against eSkarre where i was quite mpressed with how legionnaires, spawning vessel and eVayl worked together to quite efficiently blunt the attack of and then defeat some tricked out satyxis unit.

I imagine if people are playing against no shooting swordmen would be an even better purchase for just two points more.

[Lanz]

Actually, I don't see much shooting, really. Skorne, trolls and Cryx rarely has much shooting. Ret I rarely play against without an eLylyth list, so their shooting is irrelevant. Same with Cygnar for the most part. Though Cygnar isn't too big a deal anyhow. Khador and Protectorate are probably the only exceptions, but their shooting is a bit more situational, and short-ranged.

What serious shooting do you actually run into that does so well to invalidate these tactics?

[Necra-Chi]

It doesn't have to be a "shooty" list. It just have to have some shooting or magic to mess up your formations and stop the whole charge screening tactic. Most lists have the ability to do this efficently if all they have to do is kill a couple of def 12 ARM 16 guys. That is perfect for your typical small arms. --ARM 20 is a whole different ball game.

Cryx have the bile thrall trick and spells and they do have guns too. I play against retribution a lot and would like to be able to have eLylyth as my alternate at all times, and certainly not in casual games. I've only started playing alternate lists recently because I had to.

And I also play against very shooty cygnar regularly too. It doesn't take serious shooting to invalidate the infantry screen as a tactic when it is ARM 16. One turn of iron zeal is the sweet spot they need to do more than just die. I don't play to just get my guys killed. I'll sacrifice something cheaper for something more valuable, but I don't go out there to get my army killed intentionally. I don't even kill my own acolyths. I like to make the opponent do the killing, and I like to make that difficult if possible.

Edit here is an example from an actual game I lost to illustrate. E Vayl against Protectorate in Supply and Demand, and he made me go first despite my +1 forthe theme force. He had errant because that's what protectorate takes. They are awesome. This is not a matchup you would take eLylyth, not until She has her naga, but I'm not even convinced of that. Anyway I sent my legionnaires up with the spawning vessel as fast as their legs could carry them to try keep errant out of contesting my zone. This was alosing battle because the errant have guns and I think assault or quick work pr something. But I jammed them in there anyway, to buy time. The rest of my beast heavy force had no problems running circles around the protectorate, but they could not defend the zone against a bunch of errant under pSevvy if they tried. Anyway eventually there was a situation where they had charged in and killed and shot a bunch of legionnaires, making amockery of my formations because of quick work, and scored a point, but I set atrap for them and my carnivean took a heavy toll with aimed spray but unfortunately left on eguy contesting, and then instead of tidying that up with typhon, I went for a complicated but fairly certain assassination run, which failed anyway and then I lost on scenario because of one knight that didn't die.

Now if that had been legionnaires with farilor the result would have been very different. I would haveput iron zeal up on the turn I ran to get in the way of the errant. But then to score the errant would have to charge against set defense, not a sure thing at all, and even then, the back line would have survived a lot more of the additional shots. That would have allowed more of them to survive for vengeance the next turn, probably allowing me to kill off the knights with just the legionnaires, and be further forward defending the zone afterwards , freeing up the warbeasts to do more important things like assassinating Sevvy or taking on his warjacks.

[Defenstrator]

I have to say that ARM 20 is generally the sweet spot for basic shooting. At that point even POW 12s bounce off on average. When playing Cygnar putting ARM 18 on my Stormblades with Arcane Shield doesn't seem to be enough, but if I stack it with Deflection then all of a sudden a bunch of things that used to murder them start bouncing.

The bump to DEF with Set Defense also has potential. I think it opens them up to more play with Bethayne, as Ashen Veil puts them into good DEF 16 vs charges, protecting the centre while the Hex Hunters flank around.

I already run Legionnaires with pThagrosh. I wouldn't say exchanging the Vessel for Farilor is better, but I'd have to play it to find out if its worse. Having DEF 14 ARM 20 on the approach thanks to Fog of War and Iron Zeal is pretty sweet. Or if they aren't shooting heavy and I can brick with Thagrosh, being effective ARM 22 is pretty good, especially with Set Defense on top. Or I could trade in my Warchief and keep the Vessel, for more grinding, with Farilor now providing some hitting power.

Do I think Farilor is one of those UAs that are an auto-include? No. But I do see arguments for him being balanced.

[Neutralyze]

My legionaires tarpit all the time, even against shooty forces. If a 6 pt unit draws shots away from something more important then its a good situation.

[Necra-Chi]

So they are there to draw pow 10s away from your warbeasts?

[Neutralyze]

They are they to draw shots from anything, feed the vessel and get in the way. We all know people tend to shoot what will get to them first.

[JosephKerr]

I proxied Farilor and Standard more for Set Defense and Magic Static than anything. Set Defense gives you an extra model or two after accepting a charge followed by Vengeance/Iron Zeal to keep the rest well positioned to prevent breaking. If you protect Farilor on the charge then walk him out with Vengeance his weapon master/Cleave can win the attrition war with his ARM/Boxes and immunity to KD/Stationary.
Magic Static is very useful in the later turns of the game to force the enemy caster to reposition or dedicate an arc node to wipe them with magic attacks, and it's also quite useful against Rahn or Bethayne or Druids or what have you.
They go from being a speed bump to a pretty brutal tarpit, though as Neut brought up the pot is the same price but may work better.

[Defenstrator]

Warcast episode 15 has a discussion on him as well.

http://warcastonline.com/