eThag 50 pt. Is this even viable?

[nenya97]

I am a Khador player, currently, and need to feel some Horde love. I love the idea of eyeless dragons, and I want as many as I can and a buddy at the local store suggested something like this:

eThag:
Ravagor
Ravagor
Shredder x 12
Harrier
Swamp Gobbers

I have seen shredders do very very little in the world of Khador. ARM20 is too much for these little guys and overall they are really mediocre. Is the Rabid-ness and eThag's signs and portence really make that much of a difference?

[sathoon]

I think this was actually done in MkI, that player won a tournament by launching a mass of manifest destiny shredders. As far as blind probability goes, all those gribblies should eat even a karchev brick on feat turn, based on sheer numbers. Though you'll find making all those frenzy checks will be an obscene pain the arse, making it less attractive for timed turns.

Is it viable though? Looks potentially fun as heck; like spamming LRM launchers on mech commander, gold. LRMs With teeth and bad attitude.

I'm totally gonna try this next time my mate is open for a game, and see how quickly they eat gatormen posse! Maybe have some stingers as well for the poison attacks on those warcaster/locks!

[SneaklePete]

Arm 20 can be hard for shredders, but as someone who routinely throws 3 Manifest Destiny shredders at a heavy, out of 6 attacks rolling 4 dice drop-lowest the chances of scoring 3 sixes on at least one attack are pretty solid. Even a shredder with 3 sixes gives you a 28, 4-5 of them could certainly take out if not cripple a heavy.

My advice though, drop a shredder for a pair of Shepards to clear your Ravagores of fury every turn. Maybe even drop a few more for a spawning vessel and some Legionaires, since they'll turn themselves into a couple Lessers by turn 2 anyway.

[nenya97]

Oh my god, I forgot to add that the list has 2 forsaken and 2 shepards already at 50pts. lol

Should look like this:

eThag:
Ravagor
Ravagor
Shredder x 12
Harrier
Shepard
Shepard
Forsaken
Forsaken
Swamp Gobbers

Between two shepards in back to keep the ravagores going and the forsaken on the front lines, fury management with this many itty bitty dragons isn't that bad.

I like the utility of adding units but on the table it seems like a decent idea to just bum rush the opponent with shredders as much as I want.

Another question might be, is swapping out the shredders for all harriers a decent idea? Flight seems to really make a difference when I have a bunch of crap in my way, but I lose rabid. Or maybe going more half and half with harrier/shredders. I would say add stingers, but one shot of poison just doesn't seem the best.

Also with frenzy, they just attack the closes target, correct? So that is good unless my opponent just walks away or kills it and I don't have to worry about it.

[SneaklePete]

Oh my god, I forgot to add that the list has 2 forsaken and 2 shepards already at 50pts. lol

Should look like this:

eThag:
Ravagor
Ravagor
Shredder x 12
Harrier
Shepard
Shepard
Forsaken
Forsaken
Swamp Gobbers

Between two shepards in back to keep the ravagores going and the forsaken on the front lines, fury management with this many itty bitty dragons isn't that bad.

I like the utility of adding units but on the table it seems like a decent idea to just bum rush the opponent with shredders as much as I want.

Another question might be, is swapping out the shredders for all harriers a decent idea? Flight seems to really make a difference when I have a bunch of crap in my way, but I lose rabid. Or maybe going more half and half with harrier/shredders. I would say add stingers, but one shot of poison just doesn't seem the best.

Also with frenzy, they just attack the closes target, correct? So that is good unless my opponent just walks away or kills it and I don't have to worry about it.

Ah yea, that looks much better, haha.

Harriers do their job pretty well, I always want to field some in a pack of three but I've never actually tried it. I do love the stinger though. Poison may be situational but reach is very nice, and a Manifest Destiny pow 12 is pretty good even without poison. The spray can clear some tiny things if you get lucky, but they block charge lanes better than a shredder. Sometime I regret bringing two, but I almost never regret bringing one.

That's the thing about the spawning vessel though, it gives you a wildcard. For two points you get to play "choose your pokemon!", even if it's just your grunts impaling themselves to please Thagrosh first turn. I like to bring the full 6 grunts and play it like an artillery piece though. Big beast? Shoot a stinger harpoon. Wall giving toy trouble? Lob a Harrier mortar over it. And who doesn't love one, last shredder exactly where your opponent doesn't want it?

The frenzy order is first enemy in melee, first friend in melee, closest enemy model engaging the beast, closest model in LOS, closest model. So as long as you're already engaged or your other shredders are far enough away, yeah you should be OK. It's always better to rabid and have both attacks on a shredder, but Stingers and Harriers are almost as good going crazy. Just less acurate.

[Lanz]

I don't think it will handle very well against high armor. Worse, it's pretty much helpless against heavy armor. If you're playing against Warmachine, most casters would be able to camp focus through everything but Thagrosh.

That said, Thagrosh is a menace, and the forsaken can help do the job. So you're not totally screwed, but against heavy armor you're looking at an uphill climb for certain. I'd take at least 1 beatstick. I'd also consider adding Spell martyrs.

So consider dropping a single lesser in order to turn a Ravagore into a Carnivean, then add a spell martyr. I always have at least one. I always have a Seraph too, but that's up to you.

On the note on Harriers; I always have one for it's animus and auto-hit utilities. The auto-hit is good on eThagrosh to make his kills against high-def targets.

Anyways, I've run something similar to this, but it was 14 lessers, Scythean, Seraph, Support. It was... okay. I felt really restricted on what I could do with my lessers do to the fact that doing pretty much anything with them would mean frenzy checks no matter what. That or I could only use 1/3 of my army at any given time. Frenzying Shredders lose out on Manifest Destiny and you have no control over them, both are bad for eThags.

[Northern Ronin]

Its a neat trick list, but the problem with shredder spam is that it struggles hard against most heavies, and can grind to a halt against truly thick heavies (arcane shielded jacks, khador, skorne, etc) To take a Khador Heavy in 1 turn, you need nearly 15 Shredder bites on expected rolls (so at least 7 Shredders, which is really hard to just get in space wise, the most you can reasonably expect is 4-5 even with a great set up, and that's assuming none needed to charge). Now, the dual Ravagores is an interesting take, since the shredders are playing more interference than heavy hitter (or rather death by numbers), adding a ravagore shot or two before the swarm goes in does help, but its a trick you'll get to use once before you start suffering massive losses of shredders from anything in their army, even a single charging trooper in many factions has fair odds to put a shredder down, and a pair and do it with great reliability. What's more, is the list suffers from tramples bad. A heavy getting into your ravagore will be problematic and likely shove the entire list off balance while Thagrosh is more or less forced to deal with the problem himself, leaving him forward and exposed after exhausting himself to drop a heavy. It's something that does look fun, and I'd run it a bit, though I'd get a spell marytr or two, just because scourges can be really nice, or a flesh eater to pop out a nasty solo (read; Joe). I personally would also trade some Shredders for harriers and stingers, but I just think verity is the spice of life.

[nenya97]

so it seems that the problem really lies in taking down the opposing heavies. Most players will usually take a max of 3 heavies, and that's if they are playing a faction where they are cheap or self sufficient i.e. Khador, Cygnar, Skorne.

So the question is, who is the best heavy hitter and is it better to just replace the Ravagores or to lower the Shredder count?

I'm suprised to see people say Spell Martyrs are worth taking. Is that just for eThag? Never seen someone consistantly use them after the first time.

[Lanz]

Spell Martyrs with eThagrosh are an assassination enabler. It's your call how you want to play him, but after several types of lists (including the aforementioned lesser-spam), I've come to conclude that the assassination-optimized build for eThagrosh has the best success.

Where the spell martyrs fit in is channeling Scourge. A powerful spell, and more importantly, a knock-down. With Thagrosh's accuracy, a fully-boosted Scourge may sap most of his fury, but it'll knock down a critical model (usually the enemy caster or something screening the enemy caster). If he gets the caster, you've basically won. Beasts move in and sweep up. It's also why I always have a Seraph. Threat range for eThagrosh, and it's a good follow-up after scourge since it hits on anything but double-1s, and can use all the fury on boosted damage rolls. 2-4 boosted POW12s can do a number on an enemy caster that isn't just camping everything. Typically from Slipstream, I can get the Scythean in there as well, though I'm considering dropping the Scythean for an Angel due to the many times the Scythean has been just out of range and an Angel could have either made the charge, or contributed a shot.

As for meatier models to do heavy lifting, a Scythean is ideal. Maximum destruction for points, no bells or whistles, just pure melee carnage. Also a devastating model under Manifest Destiny.