Eseverius's feat in 2011SR question.

[Scionik]

Had this come up today and wanted an official ruling before my next SR.

Scenario rules say scoring is at the end of my turn.

If I use Severius's feat to take control of my opponents grunts for one turn, can i control or contest with them when the turn ends?

[thumpernickle]

You cannot contest a scoring area with a model you do not own. You must own the model to contest the scoring area. (SR 2011 Scenario Reference Sheet)

The SR 2011 Rules stipulate you must only control, not own, the model to control a scoring area. (SR 2011 Scenario Reference Sheet)

Note that "Own" (regarding a model) is a SR 2011 game term defined in SR 2011 and "Control" (regarding a model) is also a game term and defined in the core rulebook (Primal 28).

As the SR 2011 condition for checking for scoring is at the end of a player's turn and not between player turns, I would argue that models you control due to Severius's feat can control a scoring area, but not contest a scoring area.

I believe that you can control a scoring area using models you have gained control of under Severius's feat.

[RedWynd]

I haven't read the SR2011 rules, but since the models being controlled by Severius are only controlled for one turn, once the turn ends the models are no longer controlled. If scoring is determined in the phase after a turn, then the models would not be controlled during that time.

[thumpernickle]

I haven't read the SR2011 rules, but since the models being controlled by Severius are only controlled for one turn, once the turn ends the models are no longer controlled. If scoring is determined in the phase after a turn, then the models would not be controlled during that time.

I agree that if scoring happens between player turns models affected by epic Severius's feat would not score a control point for you. However, the SR 2011 rules stipulate "at the end of the player's turn" as the time to check for scoring. Although I concede that it might be possible to read that phrase as "after the player's turn, but before the your opponents turn", that is not what it actually says. In addition, SR 2011 rules specifically state to ignore models you own but do not control when determining control points. This infers that it is possible for models you own to be under the control of your opponent when determining points for scoring areas. And since scoring for all but two scenarios (Killbox and Destruction) is determined "at the end of the player's turn", I interpret the clarification of owning vs. controlling models as supportive evidence that scoring takes place immediately before the player's turn ends (at the end of the player's turn).

I concede that it is overall a weak argument, but the strongest I can present based on the rules as currently printed.
It would be very beneficial to have an official definition of "end of turn" or "at the end of the player's turn." The core rulebook speaks to effects that expire at the beginning of your turn, but does not address "at the end of the player's turn." (Primal 42).

[darisus]

if i remember correct the models all become solos, and since none of them are points cost 1 or more, thye can't control points. At least that is how it reads to me... maybe i am wrong here, but it makes sense that way, and keeps them from nerfing the feat even farther into oblivion.

[mox5000]

if i remember correct the models all become solos, and since none of them are points cost 1 or more, thye can't control points. At least that is how it reads to me... maybe i am wrong here, but it makes sense that way, and keeps them from nerfing the feat even farther into oblivion.

That's not always true. Lots of units have models that are worth more than one point, and so I would assume as solos they are technically worth more than one point. Most heavy infantry is somewhere around 9 points for 5 models meaning each one is worth about 1.8 points.

The SR 2011 Rules stipulate you must only control, not own, the model to control a scoring area. (SR 2011 Scenario Reference Sheet)

This is wrong

From the SR 2011 Reference sheet:

Zone: Also called a “scoring area.” A region of the game table defined within the scenario rules. Players seek to “control” these zones or “contest” a zone so that an opponent does not control that zone. A player controls a zone if he OWNS one or more models within the zone and the opponent has no models within the same zone.

[darisus]

That's not always true. Lots of units have models that are worth more than one point, and so I would assume as solos they are technically worth more than one point. Most heavy infantry is somewhere around 9 points for 5 models meaning each one is worth about 1.8 points.

Not true, the unit is worth a point value, no where in the game does it say an individual model from a unit is worth X points.

Since you are making the model from a unit a solo, and since it is no longer part of the unit i believe it does not have a relative point cost for scenario control. I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says a removed troop from a unit is worth the cost of the unit divided by its members... By taking the model from a unit and making it a solo you don't automatically make it worth X points, and since it is not part of the unit where it had a point value as a whole (thus why the unit has to be close to each other to control or contest) i believe for game purposes it is considered to not have a point cost, thus making it ineligble for controling points.

[mox5000]

I'd think you'd have to get a ruling on that, because solos with multiple models work that way, so it would be odd for some reason to not do the same thing with a unit. Either way it's a moot point, since the controlled models are not ones that you own, which is requisite for controlling a zone.

[PG_Alviaran]

Own: Models listed, or created by effects, within a player’s
fielded army list.

Since the models are not on the Severius's player's army list, he does not own them.

Contest: A player must own at least one model within a
scoring area in order to contest that area or within 4” of a
flag to contest that flag.

Zone: ...A player controls a
zone if he owns one or more models within the zone and the
opponent has no models within the same zone.

Flag (40 mm base): A player controls a flag if he owns one or more models B2B with the flag and the opponent has no models within
4˝ of that flag.

Own is a defined game term and is required to either control or contest zones and flags. It also means that a model you take over with the feat will contest against you even though you are currently controlling it.

At best, the feat can be used to have most of a unit dash off of the objective and then kill the remaining leader to clear it.

[tort]

I think it's safe to assume that at the end of the turn means last thing that happens in a players turn the same way that at the beginning of a turn means the first thing that happens. Also controlling your opponents model only stops your opponent from using that model to control a zone/flag, it can't contest or control for the player who currently controls it.

[PG_Alviaran]

I think it's safe to assume that at the end of the turn means last thing that happens in a players turn the same way that at the beginning of a turn means the first thing that happens. Also controlling your opponents model only stops your opponent from using that model to control a zone/flag, it can't contest or control for the player who currently controls it.

Not quite. If you take over all of the models of a unit and leave them as the only models controlling the zone, your opponent gets the point because he OWNS those models. Who controls the models does not matter at all for scoring. Controlling an opponent's models only lets you get them out of the zone and so they are no longer an issue.

[vintersbastard]

If you take over all of the models of a unit and leave them as the only models controlling the zone, your opponent gets the point because he OWNS those models. Who controls the models does not matter at all for scoring. Controlling an opponent's models only lets you get them out of the zone and so they are no longer an issue.

Well, that's not true either:

Control: The rules for control vary depending on the scenario and the type of scoring area (zone or flag) used. Ignore inert warjacks, wild warbeasts, fleeing models and models that you own that are under the control of your opponent when checking for control conditions.

But they would still contest your control of the zone, since they're still owned by your opponent.

[tort]

What I said (and what vintersbastard said) is correct. The player that owns a model under their opponents control cannot use that model to control a zone/flag and the player who takes over control of the model cannot use it to control or contest. The model will still contest the zone for the player that owns it. Check the steamroller rules.

[PG_Hacksaw76]

This issue will be clarified futher in SR2012. The intent is that scoring occurs after all other turn length effects.

[DaPreacherMan43]

The spirit of the rule sounds like you, your models, need to control the objective. Not ones granted by a feat or any other of our cryx shenannigans...

It is hard in every situation to make the letter of the rule agree with the spirit of the rule.
After many years of officiating football, the rule and application of any such rule will come down to a few things.
Interpretation (hermanuetics), application (praxis), and intent (spirit of the rule).

ie: holding happens in football on every play, especially at lower levels, the question is does it gain an unfair advantage?

But i will say this, Kudos to some fancy rules lawyering. I wish i had thought of it :-)

[thumpernickle]

I stand corrected. I needed to more carefully read the definition of "Zone" after reading what I thought were the relevant SR definitions of "Control" and "Contest." It would be nice if in the future all elements of a definition were contained in one place under one heading.

[Terraneaux]

Man, that sucks. I'd think that was the kind of thing the feat was actually intended to do.

[poeticruse]

necrothread locked without reading.