Extending an Olive Branch

[PG_phatasian]

Greetings Cygnar Community,

This is likely to be a long post as that's how I roll but let me give you the TLDR version.

I'm very sorry if I offended any of you. I'm extending an olive branch and offering Peace. It was never my intent to offend which I will try and explain where I was coming from.

So how'd we get to where we are at? I think to accurately answer that I have to give you some background. First. We don't really plan that much before a podcast. This whole thing got started because we often just hung out and talked about WM. When we decided to start a podcast that is how we wanted it. To just be guys talking about what comes to mind around the game of Warmachine and Hordes. Lots of good idea's come out of Stream of Consciousness like that. Lots of horrible idea's come out as well. I can tell you the entire MWEH thing was all off the cuff. We didn't discuss it ahead of time. It just happened. Now that being said. It accurately sums up my impression of these forums. I mostly form my impression by what my playerbase is telling me. We have a very active large group that is constantly adding new members. Our current football league is 32 people with several wishing they had signed up. Now in the last 6 months I have no less than 3 players approach me and inform me that Cygnar is not competitive and expressed buyers remorse. I'm one of the primary pressgangers for the area so I get to talk to a lot of my playerbase and I get a feeling for what's going on in these forums. I freely admit that I don't read every thread. I don't have that kind of time. So that is how my perception was formed. I have my playerbase bringing this too me and I see thread titles like http://privateerpressforums.com/show...3251-Swan-song or
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ly-competitive from the main boards which where I go if anywhere to read anything. Now to be complete. I don't have this issue with any other faction. All factions are very well represented in my Meta and I don't see this behavior from the others.

Now I am going to rant about using Convention winners as a barometer for how competitive a faction is. The sample size is incredibly small. The data is practically worthless. For example if you took Jason Watts and Jake Van Meter's performances out of those numbers they skew a ton which I think helps to support my theory that it's the player and not the faction/lists. This is my personal belief. I'm not a PP apologist. Everything is not perfectly balanced. I don't think that is possible. With that being said. The game is balanced well enough that good play can make any faction competitive. I also get annoyed with excuses. I have found in my experience people will give you every reason under the sun why they lost but... I didn't play well. It was the dice, The sun was in my eyes, I was sick, My dog died. Whatever else comes to mind. When I review a game that I played I always think of tons of things that I could of done much better. Whether it's more focus effeciency, better placement, or even giving my opponent a 10% chance to kill my caster when I don't have too. I want my playerbase to look to their game first and their faction second for why they win/lose.

Now I am not a Cygnar expert. But I have a very good understanding of the game in general and have watched and participated in a lot of very high level play. I talk about the game with a ton of really really good players. Jake, Chuck, Flanzer, Will, Benesh, Nigel, Keith, Chad and i'm sure i'm forgetting a lot of others. I don't like to toot my own horn. Actually I hate it but I for the purposes of this discussion. I am very well informed. I don't just willy nilly say things like "cygnar is competitive". I put a ton of thought into that and I'm open to being proven wrong. Which is why we have Keith playing Cygnar. He is a very good player and I expect he will win something big with them this year. If he doesn't that doesn't necessarily mean i will change my mind as there are a ton of factors that go into wining something like a convention but that is my expectation. I feel like the Cygnar community could use someone to rally the troops.

There is certainly legitimate complaints about different things in the faction. I can see how this happened but I want to make it clear. I am not saying that you don't have a legitimate gripe about specific units or models. The GMCA is not a super strong piece. Every faction has these issues.

I often forget that the people listening to the podcast don't know me and it's impossible to read tone in text which will likely get me in trouble here. And the podcast is not a visual medium which also makes it hard to see things. So here is me tooting my own horn again. I'm pretty well known in the community for being a good sport and having a good time. Please see here http://www.warmachineweekend.com/eve.../award-results. I don't have any malice towards anyone. I have a good friend of mine describe me as the most Sarcastic Optimistic person he knows which confuses the heck out of him. So if you had been sitting at the table with us when we were doing the MWEH bit. I'm fairly confident you would of had a better impression. We were laughing and the spirit of it was in good fun. We are very honestly excited about trying to prove that Cygnar is a good faction. Should be a fun ride.

So that's where I am at. I see how we got here and I'm truly sorry if I offended. I was trying to give you perspective as to where I am coming from. Basically, Cygnar is in my opinion a competitive faction. I think that basing how competitive the faction is off of Convention winners is folly. We were doing our thing and the MWEH came out organically in good fun with no malice in our hearts. We are genuinely trying to prove our theory which is going to be the fun part.

Peace and Love,


John


PS -- there really is some good cygnar info on the podcast =). If you can keep up with the rampant topic switches.

[MadJack]

You know what's missing from this? An actual apology. You've said that you're sorry if you offended anyone. That's really not an apology. That's the equivalent of saying "I'm sorry if you took what I said the wrong way" and it basically puts it on the person who took offence. An apology would be saying something like "I'm sorry I called everyone whiners because it was wrong and a generalization."

[PG_Dino-Czar]

You know what's missing from this? An actual apology. You've said that you're sorry if you offended anyone. That's really not an apology. That's the equivalent of saying "I'm sorry if you took what I said the wrong way" and it basically puts it on the person who took offence. An apology would be saying something like "I'm sorry I called everyone whiners because it was wrong and a generalization."

Take it easy.

edit:There is no reason to read "I'm sorry you were offended" as anything other than "I didn't mean to offend". <-poor reading comprehension in evidence!

I think you'd have to reach pretty far to read an underhanded slight into this post. He doesn't say he is "sorry if you were offended". He says he is "sorry if he offended". That is a genuine apology.


I still don't like how MoM comports it's self as a group, but if they win some stuff and shut the "Cygnar can't win" crowd up... well more power to them.

[MadJack]

Take it easy.

There is no reason to read "I'm sorry you were offended" as anything other than "I didn't mean to offend"*.

I still don't like how MoM comports it's self as a group, but if they win some stuff and shut the "Cygnar can't win" crowd up... well more power to them.


*edit: In fact I think you'd have to reach pretty far to read an underhanded slight into this post. It isn't perfectly eloquent, but Phatasians's rep clearly isn't someone who is insincere.

No I disagree entirely. And this is based wholely on the apology and not on anything that may or may not have been said in a podcast that I never listened to. The podcast didn't offend me in the slightest. How could it? I didn't listen to it! Apologies that say "I'm sorry if you were offended" are pretty standard amongst politicians trying to avoid taking any responsibility for what they said. It's solely the "apology" I'm taking issue with, because IMO that type of statement is absolutely meaningless. Saying "I didn't mean to offend" is an explanation, not an apology. If you want to apologize, then apologize for what you said and/or did. If you don't want to apologize, but want to explain that you didn't mean to offend then do that and don't try to pass it off as an apology. I'm fine with either. Either one will make me think more highly of you than if you "apologize" without actually apologizing for yourself.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

No I disagree entirely. And this is based wholely on the apology and not on anything that may or may not have been said in a podcast that I never listened to. The podcast didn't offend me in the slightest. How could it? I didn't listen to it! Apologies that say "I'm sorry if you were offended" are pretty standard amongst politicians trying to avoid taking any responsibility for what they said. It's solely the "apology" I'm taking issue with, because IMO that type of statement is absolutely meaningless. Saying "I didn't mean to offend" is an explanation, not an apology. If you want to apologize, then apologize for what you said and/or did. If you don't want to apologize, but want to explain that you didn't mean to offend then do that and don't try to pass it off as an apology. I'm fine with either. Either one will make me think more highly of you than if you "apologize" without actually apologizing for yourself.

I still think you're being unfair. Nothing I know about phatasian (which is, admittedly, just above "nothing") suggests he is dodgy or insincere. Making someone jump through hoops to apologize in the way you, personally, like is an unflattering habit.

[MercCommander]

I didn't hear the podcast so I don't know what this is occuring for but he did make a move in the right direction. Have fun podcasting.

[GreenJello]

I'm very sorry if I offended any of you. I'm extending an olive branch and offering Peace. It was never my intent to offend which I will try and explain where I was coming from.

Apology accepted, I think it's really good of you to make this statement.

I also apologize, if I come off as a bit whiny, I'll try to tune it down. I've got about 1/2-3/4 every in this faction, mostly painted, been playing off and on since the battleboxes, so I've got and I'd like to see it work better than it currently does. I'm sure some of it is my personal player skills, hopefully I'll learn something from yourself, crump, and Keith.

There is certainly legitimate complaints about different things in the faction. I can see how this happened but I want to make it clear. I am not saying that you don't have a legitimate gripe about specific units or models. The GMCA is not a super strong piece. Every faction has these issues.

I really needed to hear you and the rest of the crew acknowledge this. I think that's been part of what's been stirring the pot, neither side feels like the other is acknowledging their points. So they get made over and over and over again.

I think that basing how competitive the faction is off of Convention winners is folly.

It's a bad tool, but its better than going with gut or heresay. There's always somebody who's on the bottom or the top, in this case the gap may be smaller than others.

We are genuinely trying to prove our theory which is going to be the fun part.

I'm very interested to see what you guys come up with, hopefully I'll learn something.

PS -- there really is some good cygnar info on the podcast =). If you can keep up with the rampant topic switches.

I'll give it a listen.

[WintersChill]

This is so goofy it blows my mind. Was someone seriously offended by some silly banter on a podcast? Or do they just disagree with what the MoM crew said?

That makes me wonder if there is secretly a group of George Lucas and M. Night Shyamalan fans that will now demand an apology from the Focus and Fury crew (see TBs).

Phatasian and all the MoM guys are awesome. If you are going to hate on them for something they said jokingly, that's your loss.

Phatasian, I think it is ridiculous that you felt you had to do this, but I will accept your apology on behalf of all the Cygnarans that are too mweh to do so themselves.

[PG_yogadragon]

This is so goofy it blows my mind. Was someone seriously offended by some silly banter on a podcast? Or do they just disagree with what the MoM crew said? That makes me wonder if there is secretly a group of George Lucas and M. Night Shyamalan fans that will now demand an apology from the Focus and Fury crew (see TBs). Phatasian and all the MoM guys are awesome. If you are going to hate on them for something they said jokingly, that's your loss. Phatasian, I think it is ridiculous that you felt you had to do this, but I will accept your apology on behalf of all the Cygnarans that are too mweh to do so themselves.

That'd be great if you were still a Cygnar player. That being said, between all the Cygnar goodies being posted on the PP site and the podcasts, I'm actually kinda excited about Cygnar again.

[PG_Charwood]

I'm pretty well known in the community for being a good sport and having a good time.

Quoted for truth!

- Adam

[iksander]

I wouldn't have apologized, but also people aren't going to give two craps about anything you guys do if ya don't back it up with results. Yes, it's a retarded forever changing line in the sand, where the rules will alter from "place, to win a major con, to win a major con's tourney that isn't hardcore" but that's the way forums work.

Although if your going to show that Cygnar players are freaking incompetents (which maybe completely true), don't overextend yourselves by giving yourself ridiculously dumb handicaps more than the current character restrictions. Say hey, Cygnar players your morons that can't win a major con with Major Haley, Siege, Etc...

Because if your going in with Walmart brand Epic Stryker and Siege (ie Constance and Kara) and have Darius with your third list while skipping the Squire to prove that all Cygnar forum logic is dumb.... don't even bother, unless you have some Bobby Fischer type secret Warmachine technology and skills. Hell I understand if you want to go balls different with one list, A Darius/Prime Stryker Brick etc... or just have a really good connection with one caster, but if you go in with retarded self imposed handicaps and then have no results, you'll just feed into the forum pity party.

[leo_neil316]

I also get annoyed with excuses. I have found in my experience people will give you every reason under the sun why they lost but... I didn't play well. It was the dice

You know, there is this guy on the Ret forums called Kallus. He's really good. He's either as good or better than me.

I usually beat him. I usually beat him because he can send a buffed, fully loaded manticore into a knocked down pHaley camping a couple of focus and fail to kill her.

His dice are so consistently BAD that you can actually plan around them being bad.

There is another guy in our meta who consistently does stuff like 'I fire four boosted POW 10's at your ARM 20 caster with 16 boxes. He dies because I roll nothing but 5's and 6's on all twelve of those dice.'

This is also so regular, so consistent, that you can plan around it (and cry anytime a POW 6 blast drifts onto your caster).

I have no idea what you think you're "apologising" for. But yet another person starting a thread about how 'I'm not a cygnar expert but etc etc i think you're whining blah blah learn to play' is probably not the way to go about it. We have plenty of those. And we especially don't need another from someone who can't understand that bad luck or good luck can in fact decide a game regardless of anything else.

[Kuren]

Please note, I am serious about the next two questions:

Who are you?

And what podcast?

Without having any idea of who you are or what podcast you speak of, this, erhm, apology of yours doesn't really seem sincere to me, if only because you appear fall back onto, what amounts to an accusation of 'You all are wrong!'.

That said, I'll continue to play Cygar. I dropped a couple hundred to a thousand-ish dollars on all my stuff and who knows how many hours painting them so I want something for that investment. I'll be depressed while playing with that investment, but I'll still play.

[John Q.]

Pfffffffftttt.

That is the most dismissive noise I can type.

Not dismissive of the apology, but of some percieved need to apologise. If you felt it was necessary, then it's cool and admirable that you actually did it, but seriously - who is so genuinely offended by a group of gamers' banter that they demanded an apology?

For what it's worth, as a relatively new Cygnar player, I found it pretty funny. I enjoy the podcast, keep it up.

[MadJack]

I still think you're being unfair. Nothing I know about phatasian (which is, admittedly, just above "nothing") suggests he is dodgy or insincere. Making someone jump through hoops to apologize in the way you, personally, like is an unflattering habit.

Maybe I've just seen this kind of "apology" far too much from politicians and other public figures trying to weasel out of taking personal responsibility for anything. To me this kind of apology always rings false and seems completely insincere. Having said that, I know absolutely nothing about phatasian. Is he sincerely apologizing? From this post I have no idea one way or the other. What I'm pointing out is that I'd like him to either be explicit that he's apologizing for what he said, or be explicit that he's not apologizing for what he said but that he didn't mean for people to take it the way they did. I'm fine with either, but the "I'm sorry if I offended people" route just seems like a cop-out to me. Again, this is not based on phatasian personally, just based on my experience in the past with people using that line (Rush Limbaugh comes to mind immediately, as he's been using a similar line recently to try to deal with the fall-out from his recent comments - it hasn't been working well for him because people seem to think as I do that it's a cop-out).

[bStyker]

I don't really follow MoM, though I have listened to half of two episodes. It was fine.

It's a great gesture to try and clear the air, so thanks for that. Good luck with Cygnar!

Best,

[sleet01]

Now in the last 6 months I have no less than 3 players approach me and inform me that Cygnar is not competitive and expressed buyers remorse.

Still reading, so I'm just commenting on this part. But I think it's a little harsh to lay the blame for 3 players complaining about Cygnar over the past 6 months on a couple of threads that are less than two months old. I also think it's unfair to use this as evidence that the threads "whine" too much.

Edit: Regardless, I personally appreciate the effort you put into this post, and your willingness to explain your position. Thanks for the apology.

[watchgeorgerock]

Screw that! This is Warmachine not Cuddlemachine. I dont want an apology. I just want to roll some dice and smash some face.


MWEH

[Rochr]

I did not listen to the Pod cast that you talk about but I imagine it went along the lines of "Cygnar forum posters whine and can't play properly" - I doubt that is bad enough that the post you just made wouldn't cover it. Whoever would demand more than this post or doubt its sincerity really should stop value himself/herself that high. This is, after all an anonymous forum which really limits the amount of personal offense one can take.

[78Brad]

Meh. You really shouldn't worry too much about what or how others react from your opinion. But yeah there are times (when playing against Khador) when I feel that "buyers remorse" feeling.

[scout's honor]

Maybe I've just seen this kind of "apology" far too much from politicians and other public figures trying to weasel out of taking personal responsibility for anything. To me this kind of apology always rings false and seems completely insincere. Having said that, I know absolutely nothing about phatasian. Is he sincerely apologizing? From this post I have no idea one way or the other. What I'm pointing out is that I'd like him to either be explicit that he's apologizing for what he said, or be explicit that he's not apologizing for what he said but that he didn't mean for people to take it the way they did. I'm fine with either, but the "I'm sorry if I offended people" route just seems like a cop-out to me. Again, this is not based on phatasian personally, just based on my experience in the past with people using that line (Rush Limbaugh comes to mind immediately, as he's been using a similar line recently to try to deal with the fall-out from his recent comments - it hasn't been working well for him because people seem to think as I do that it's a cop-out).

"I'm sorry if I offended you" means exactly what it says. The person apologizing is not apologizing for what he said, he's apologing for saying it in a way that comes across as offensive presumably because it wasn't meant to be. If it didn't offend, there's nothing to be sorry about. From that perspective, Phatasian's apology seems sincere to me. I don't know why he made it (lots of negative reactions to the podcast? Probably better to apologize in the next one then) since I don't see much reason for it, but ok.

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Really, I hate facing Cygnar armies. I hate them just as much as seeing Legion across the table. I have the hardest time beating them, they get to ignore so much stuff.

Draekon

[sleet01]

Define "so much stuff"? Like, what, Stealth? High DEF? Not ARM or Tough? Have you ever played against POM?

[JPGREAT1]

Wait Cygnar's not competitive? I coulda sworn I beat Danny Modesto (guy who took 2nd place in Warmachine weekend 2011) to win an event down in florida? hmm maybe I was asleep and dreaming about it

[GreenJello]

Really, I hate facing Cygnar armies. I hate them just as much as seeing Legion across the table. I have the hardest time beating them, they get to ignore so much stuff.

to
Huh? What faction are you play, and what do we get to ignore? Cygnar's probably one of the closest to following the rules factions in the game.

Wait Cygnar's not competitive? I coulda sworn I beat Danny Modesto (guy who took 2nd place in Warmachine weekend 2011) to win an event down in florida? hmm maybe I was asleep and dreaming about it

What did you use? Maybe there are some good combos or something.

Anyway, I don't think anybody is saying the factions a complete wash, but rather they're a bit behind in the curve. To put it another way, I feel like it's like my opponents have a +2 on their D6 die to win.

[phreaker187]

If you're offended by a podcast in the first place there's something wrong with you.

Who care about a bunch of kids in the basement rambling about stuff and posting it on the internet.

[VagrantPoet]

This is a nice gesture. I'm looking forward to the next episode, and moreover to seeing Crump and Keith play Cygnar and seeing how they do.

[JPGREAT1]

Anyway, I don't think anybody is saying the factions a complete wash, but rather they're a bit behind in the curve. To put it another way, I feel like it's like my opponents have a +2 on their D6 die to win.

Yes, what you just said, Cygnar is behind the curve slightly. I agree in some areas we need help and in these areas it really puts us at a disadvantage. That being said, it is possible to win in a tournament.

[Halcyon Dtier]

So what happened?

[Crusader85]

I personally do not believe that there was a need to apologize phatasain. I have a fairly competitive meta in my area and I am consistently pushed to preform better and better with each game I play. This has helped lead me to consistently place top 5 in most tournaments I play in for the past three years with Cygnar. I'm not going to be blind and say that the faction is perfect, its not period. It does have some weak models (Trenchers, the aforementioned GMCA, etc.), but every faction does. So to say that Cygnar isn't competitive is just plain dumb, it takes skill of the player to make the faction effective. Everything you said in your podcast phatasian I personally agree with 100%.

[ricefrisbeetreats]

I don't listen to podcasts. Not really sure why you're apologizing for it. Does anyone know why he is? Did he call specific Cygnar players bad names?

[gelfy]

screw that! This is warmachine not cuddlemachine. I dont want an apology. I just want to roll some dice and smash some face.


mweh

>>>>>love you

[watchgeorgerock]

Seriously eh? People gotta loosen up and have some meaningless sex...or a good dump...and just play the game and have fun.

haha... I guess I didnt convey my tone well. I dont take podcasts serious and I would rather just play the game and figure out how to make Cygnar win. Would a blumpkin count?

[0ldsk00l]

dont even know what MWEH means, but I really dont care what you guys say in your podcast; I just wish you guys would be better at maintaining even sound levels and not hitting your microphones so much. It makes it nearly un-listenable.

[kolonelk]

Eh, at this point it seems hating on Cygnar is a podcast bandwagon thing. I stopped listening to LHR because it just became beating a dead horse. I don't mind the ranting so much when it's actually directed at something, but the generic QQ towards the faction just gets old real fast.

[Saladin]

I believe, actually, the podcasts are hating on you guys. The Cygnar community. The whiners, complainers, and mopers. The people who make terrible lists, post them up, and then people contribute by saying things like "Cygnar can't win any scenarios" or "Cygnar can't advance because they'll lose killing power," things that are so proactively wrong that I'm surprised some of you people stick with the faction.

We've had many successes up here playing Cygnar. We've figured out how to win with Darius, how to fight against jammy Hordes lists, and several dozen other little tricks that anyone who actually plays the game will realise really quickly.

The podcasts, especially Muse on Minis, are doing a good thing for you guys. Telling you to put up or shut up. If you won't fly the flag, people who actually want to win will.

We'll only have one guy flying the flag at Mayhem Cup, but he's got two other people helping him fly it. Cygnar's a fun faction and one that is very competitive. You just have to know how to play.

[mercforlife]

Hmm that really wasn't an apology.

If your going to engage in social media and attempt to be controversial ( Saying that we are going to prove anyone who says anything negative about Cygnar to be wrong and call them whiners to boot is controversial)

To apologise you say i'm sorry .. no quantifications and no defending your position.

You called a bunch of people that have a different opinion to you whiners on a subject your not an expert on (Cygnar faction), your going to offend people and you deserve to apologise for allowing your stream of consciousness to allow you to be so offensive.

It would have been enough to say that we do not think there is anything wrong with the Cygnar faction and to prove it we are going to prove it... and then you post/talk about the results of your proving, the result will speak for themselves and the message will get through.

[MollyHatchet]

I am probably one of the few people out there that cant really be offended. I like having the conversations where we disagree and see where each other comes from, and go from there. A good portion of those times are that we will agree that we disagree and go on with our lives.

There are only really three things that get me going...

One being my own play mistakes. I refuse to blame anyone else for my failings and my OOOPS! moments.

Two being Dice Cheating... and I am fairly sure everyone here knows that I am talking about.

Three? "Read page 5!.. LRN to play!.. If you dont like it then quit!.." and the rest of that BS. Everyone that keeps quoting page 5 seems to forget the disclaimer "Page 5 is not an excuse". Is it a good mind set to play with? Yes, but its also not an end all be all. Seriously, get it out of your system. It doesnt make you look cool, just makes you look like a tool.

And Gelfy, would you stop yapping? All I have seen out of you is insults, rudeness, and all around jack***ery.

[watchgeorgerock]

I support trolling and jackarsery

[MollyHatchet]

I think thats why alot of people dont pay a whole lot of attention to you, or at least shouldnt.

But hey, its the internet.