Vague Colossal predictions

[Lanz]

Pricing is always going to be subjective because people make different amounts of money. And saying it is a certainty, $135 for one model is expensive to a large portion of the population and thus overpriced.

Even that's subjective. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that a 'large portion' finds them expensive? I seriously doubt you have anything credible to back that with. If anything, on the forums at least, there seems to be just as many people who are fine with the price as there are those who think it's overcosted.

[PPS_Simon]

No politics.

[Watchtower]

If I compare that to my Gun Carriage, there's really no comparison. The Gun Carriage is alright, but it's also relatively tame compared to some other existing models. PP erred on the side of caution which is wise, but, they still erred.

I know quite a few people who disagree with you. In the only major con I have attended, Orccon, there were about 5 Khador players and I saw 3 Gun Carriages in the competitive event.

[WarcasterKramer]

Even that's subjective. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that a 'large portion' finds them expensive? I seriously doubt you have anything credible to back that with. If anything, on the forums at least, there seems to be just as many people who are fine with the price as there are those who think it's overcosted.

So 50% is not a large portion?

[Lanz]

So 50% is not a large portion?

Not unless the other 50% is a large portion too. Which would make the point moot because it can't be argued that something is overpriced if only half the people think it's overpriced and the other half do not.

[quindraco]

Pricing is always going to be subjective because people make different amounts of money. And saying it is a certainty, $135 for one model is expensive to a large portion of the population and thus overpriced.

I didn't condemn anything, I said they were overpriced, it is still a very good looking model and I would like to own one, heck before they released the price I wanted to get two, but the price is too high. And you're the one condemning someone elses opinion.

I'm sorry, but you're doubly incorrect. First of all, if it IS subjective, then it cannot be a 5 per Jandrese's criteria; 5 is a confirmed certainty, which is mutually exclusive with anything subjective. That's like listing 'beautiful' or 'ugly' at a 5 (even though we do know exactly what Stormwall and Conquest look like) - simply inappropriate for the question. You might as well try to claim that 5 pounds is more than 4 inches.

The second issue is that being 'overpriced' is not subjective from a gameplay perspective (although it admittedly is purely subjective from a pure collection standpoint). While it may be very difficult to accurately assess the objective worth of a model before the heat death of the universe, it's certainly doable with infinite time - play every possible warmahordes game, and determine how much the model contributes to winning vs. losing, compared to other models. As intelligent players, we can make a reasonable attempt at doing this analysis without an infinite number of games to play.

I even made another thread which we used to determine the most expensive options in the game, to give a point of reference; the Stormwall is strictly cheaper than a unit of Kriel warriors at full loadout, and in relative terms is cheaper than the War Wolf by a substantial margin. The cost of the material is certainly objectively measurable, and as soon as we have a player willing to provide its exact volume by water displacement, we can have a sensible discussion about cost per unit volume and cost per unit mass, if you like. As soon as we have the rules, we can at least attempt a rigorous mathematical analysis of cost per centiButcher (the basic unit of warmahordes beatstickery, defined as the amount of axe to face present in the Butcher divided by 100). Under ANY of these definitions of cost, we cannot yet declare the model overpriced - either because it isn't, as with cost per point, or because we don't know enough yet, as with cost per kilogram.

[bouncymischa]

To be honest, I can't help but think back to when I was learning algebra and you got the classic "supply and demand" questions. You know, like, "You decide to sell lemonade from a lemonade stand. It costs you $1 per glass to make lemonade. If you sell lemonade at $1.50 a glass, 30 people will buy it. If you sell it at $2 per glass, 20 people will buy it. If you sell it at $2.50 per glass, 10 people will buy it. What do you do?"

In that situation, if you sell at $1.50 per glass, you make $15 profit. At $2 per glass, you make $20 profit. And at $2.50 per glass, you make $15 profit. So selling at $2 per glass makes the most profit.

But then you end up with those 10 people who would buy at $1.50 per glass, but not at $2.00, and they come up to you stand and whine that they really wanted a glass of lemonade, but that you're overcharging them for it, and they'll give you a dirty look for trying to make a profit while they crave sweet, sweet lemonade.

Perhaps Privateer has set the price too high -- in which case, their sales department is probably pretty inept. Or, quite possibly, $135 is a fair price -- in which case those people who are arguing that they want Colossals cheaper are basically saying that they want other people to make sacrifices they are unwilling to make themselves.

That's kind of what I was getting at. PP -could- release a model that cost $400 if they wanted to, but if they do they should realize that a large number ( perhaps a majority ) of players at that point are going to be looking for whatever discounts they can get, the majority of which are found online - running contrary to their aim to support local stores.

If it was just a matter of ignoring local businesses and selling online they could just sell directly from an online store of their own and cut out those other sites. They don't do that though.

I can see the argument that Privateer should put certain principles above making a profit -- but it can also be argued that if the profit margin on Colossals is tight enough, then to cut the price any further would mean Privateer would lose money on each Colossal sold. So should principles trump basic business sense? Should Privateer get into the business of subsidizing stores by sacrificing their own profit?

How far should Privateer screw themselves over to satisfy their customers?

[quindraco]

To be honest, I can't help but think back to when I was learning algebra and you got the classic "supply and demand" questions. You know, like, "You decide to sell lemonade from a lemonade stand. It costs you $1 per glass to make lemonade. If you sell lemonade at $1.50 a glass, 30 people will buy it. If you sell it at $2 per glass, 20 people will buy it. If you sell it at $2.50 per glass, 10 people will buy it. What do you do?"

In that situation, if you sell at $1.50 per glass, you make $15 profit. At $2 per glass, you make $20 profit. And at $2.50 per glass, you make $15 profit. So selling at $2 per glass makes the most profit.

PP has absolutely no way of knowing these numbers ahead of time, sadly. In addition, there are other factors to consider. Take, for example, War Room, which has no cost per unit - each time they sell a copy, they have not lost anything other than the server resources necessary for delivery. Here, selling at almost any cost above a cent or two yields a profit, but they have debts to pay off, as the programmers already made their salary. War Room has the benefit of being almost certainly perfectly elastic for most price points - you can sell e.g. 10 at 10 dollars, 100 at 1 dollar, or 1 at 100 dollars - which has a number of interesting effects, but the only one relevant here is that you can reasonably predict total profits. The Colossals provide no such advantage - PP likely has a good understanding of roughly how elastic model costs are, and the Battle Engines will give them a glimpse into how the Huge base affects things, but ultimately they're coming out with a distinctly new thing for the game, which means exploring new economic territory.

tl;dr Simple supply vs. demand is almost never true for any good or service, and it is unlikely PP or us customers know what the optimal price for Colossals is.

[Lord Sessadore]

Distinction: expensive =/= overpriced.

A brand new car is expensive. I'm not going to specify make or model, because it doesn't matter - rare is the person who considers anything over $10,000 to be cheap. Whether it is overpriced is a function of that price compared to the value it gives to the buyer. A thing is overpriced if the value it gives the buyer (this is the generic/average buyer, not a specific buyer, since we are looking to make a blanket statement here) is noticeably less than the value perceived in $135.

If people look at Colossals and say, "Yeah, I'd pay $135 for that," then they are not overpriced. That does not change the fact that it is an expensive model.

It is completely fair to say that in your specific, individual case the Stormwall is overpriced. This is pretty obvious. However, from this thread we can also make a pretty accurate assertion that there is a significant part of the market that considers the Stormwall to be priced appropriately, and not overpriced. Once again, this does not mean that it is not an expensive model - it is.

[correlation2]

Bouncy, what I was saying is that of PP wants to make sure people buy their products from local stores they should stick to lump-sum products that are considered affordable from local stores. Even though the Stormwall is strictly more expensive then fully decked out Kriel warriors players have the option of buying that unit in pieces. That, and the UA or WAs aren't even completely necessary - they're just expansions. The point I was trying to make is that as soon as the big price tag was dropped a lot of people started talking about just buying it online.

I don't want to distract too much towards the buy local argument which I feel I've explained thoroughly enough in the past, but, I figured it was at least worth a casual mention.

[Watchtower]

People who will buy the colossal online will also buy $135 worth of cheaper stuff online, and vice versa.

[bouncymischa]

The Colossals provide no such advantage - PP likely has a good understanding of roughly how elastic model costs are, and the Battle Engines will give them a glimpes into how the Huge base affects things, but ultimately they're coming out with a distinctly new thing for the game, which means exploring new economic territory.

tl;dr Simple supply vs. demand is almost never true for any good or service, and it is unlikely PP or us customers know what the optimal price for Colossals is.

Oh, I'll agree that it's hardly as simple as those basic algebra examples make it -- but there are people who make their living working in the sales departments of various companies (likely including Privateer) whose job it is to at least try and make their best guess of it. I suspect a lot of this estimation is based on how Battle Engines did over the past year. Sure, there are psychological aspects involved (will players be more enthustiastic to buy super-warjacks than a super-solo?), but in terms of "how much did we invest to make Battle Engines" vs. "how much did we make back from Battle Engine sales", they at least have some numbers to play with.

At the very least, I'm inclined to believe that Privateer has what they could to make the best possible estimation they could.

Bouncy, what I was saying is that of PP wants to make sure people buy their products from local stores they should stick to lump-sum products that are considered affordable from local stores. Even though the Stormwall is strictly more expensive then fully decked out Kriel warriors players have the option of buying that unit in pieces. That, and the UA or WAs aren't even completely necessary - they're just expansions. The point I was trying to make is that as soon as the big price tag was dropped a lot of people started talking about just buying it online.

I don't want to distract too much towards the buy local argument which I feel I've explained thoroughly enough in the past, but, I figured it was at least worth a casual mention.

I will mention that I'm a "buy local" person myself. Admittedly, I don't even have a credit card to use for online purchases, but the LGS owners I've known were all hard-working individuals, and I'm glad to help support them as I can. :P

On the other hand, saying that Privateer should stick to "lump sum products that are affordable" basically means Privateer can't innovate. To be honest, I've felt some concern that the existing line of models is already growing to the point of bloat. Colossals are a chance for them to pause for a moment and step outside of the mold, to say "we're going to make something big and flashy and different for a change, instead of variations on the same thing we've made for the past 10 years". I'm pretty certain that gigantic models like Battle Engines and Colossals aren't going to be the norm -- I'd suspect that they're going to be more the equivalent of Apotheosis' unique warjacks, or (perhaps a better example) the periodic "extreme" kits that come out. Bigger, fancier, flashier, but something that only certain people will want to collect.

[correlation2]

Perhaps!

It could just be that PP is still newish as far as companies go. Maybe 20 years from now all these things will be cheaper as they grow a stronger manufacturing base and buying power.

[gaminguy]

centiButcher: the basic unit of warmahordes beatstickery, defined as the amount of axe to face present in the Butcher divided by 100.

Can I sig this paraphrase?

[quindraco]

Can I sig this paraphrase?

Sure, if you like.

[gaminguy]

I generally prefer to ask if I'm not using a direct quote.

[leo_neil316]

If PP releases anything that a majority of players decide to buy online instead of from brick & mortar,

Wait. What?

Why in the name of all good **** do you think the majority of players will buy it online? The shipping costs are gonna be insane and it's not gonna be cheaper before that for most folks.

[correlation2]

...........

[Raff]

If, in a 25 point game, I place on the field a caster, Choir and the Menoth Colossal plus a jack to equate for WC bonus, while my opponet fields a Colossal-less army, and either myself or my opponent have no chance of winning, then the model is not worth it.

It's probably going to be hard to give them rules and stats to reflect their awesomeitude on the field of battle without leaving them overpowered, but everything has a weak spot. They're still susceptible to continuous effects, can still be debunked by your opponent or buffed by you (Iron Aggression on a Colossal? Yes please!) and they can still be destroyed.

[quindraco]

Wait. What?

Why in the name of all good **** do you think the majority of players will buy it online? The shipping costs are gonna be insane and it's not gonna be cheaper before that for most folks.

Shipping costs will generally be 0, and online retailers offer a discount of 20% - 35%, depending.

[PG_Feeple]

"No one's going to buy it, it costs too much!"

"No one's going to buy it, the rules will be crap."

There are a lot of people in this thread who have zero confidence in a company abilities to market, price, and test their products.

Which is odd considering this company in particular has been pretty good at all three. (IMO, which I guess means I already won a battle that can't be fought.)

[PG_Sobek]

They're still susceptible to continuous effects, can still be debunked by your opponent or buffed by you (Iron Aggression on a Colossal? Yes please!) and they can still be destroyed.

Crippling Grasp, anyone?

"No one's going to buy it, it costs too much!"

"No one's going to buy it, the rules will be crap."

There are a lot of people in this thread who have zero confidence in a company abilities to market, price, and test their products.

Which is odd considering this company in particular has been pretty good at all three. (IMO, which I guess means I already won a battle that can't be fought.)

Isn't this what people said about the Battle Engines a year ago? :P

[bouncymischa]

Isn't this what people said about the Battle Engines a year ago? :P

Don't they still say it? :P

[gaminguy]

Don't they still say it? :P

Depends on which one. I think the only ones that still have an image problem are the Wraith Engine and the Seige Animantarax, and some of us are still working on the later.

[PG_Sobek]

Depends on which one. I think the only ones that still have an image problem are the Wraith Engine and the Seige Animantarax, and some of us are still working on the later.

And the Noisy Cricket.

[correlation2]

I still don't get how Ret players don't like that thing. lol

[ScottEBJJ]

I still don't get how Ret players don't like that thing. lol

They actually do, it's just it was so hated at first that is still the perception.

[PG_Sobek]

They actually do, it's just it was so hated at first that is still the perception.

I still don't like it. At 10 points, it's just too expensive. Only able to fire one of it's 3 shots for that, when the Circle one can fire all three of its shots, and at fewer points? Bleh. For the same point value, I can field a Banshee which, in my opinion, can fire the best of the various shots that the AFG can. I won't say that it's bad, but I've always felt that there were better ways to spend those 10 points. In all honesty, I just feel that it's too expensive. If it was just a point or two cheaper I'd have no problem with it. But to be the same type of model as the Fulcrum (artillery, basically), do less and cost more? Nah.

[correlation2]

To be honest the Fulcrum seems way, way worse.

[Lanz]

Becuase the Fulcrum doesn't really buff or synergize with anything. The AFG at least has a buff and has some shot utility. Not being able to charge it is handy too.

[TravR]

I still don't get how Ret players don't like that thing. lol

I think a lot of it is just the extra point compared to the others. I am just guessing but the points value seems to come up a lot even though it is not a huge amount. It could also be the SPD which is lower than any of the others but I have heard less mention of that.

[correlation2]

That and its attacks spread over a number of elements, which is horrible. All it lacks is corrosion.

So you use it against PoM, you pretty much lose an attack. Go after Sorshca, you lose an attack. Attacking AKs? Down at attack. Shooting some Cygnar stuff? Have fun with your 2 attacks a turn!

[Lanz]

That and its attacks spread over a number of elements, which is horrible. All it lacks is corrosion.

So you use it against PoM, you pretty much lose an attack. Go after Sorshca, you lose an attack. Attacking AKs? Down at attack. Shooting some Cygnar stuff? Have fun with your 2 attacks a turn!

Attacking Belphagor? Lawl.

[DemonCalibre]

I know it's slightly off topic, The AFG is crazy strong, long ranged very accurate, and the reason you pay 1 more point is the damned thing is nearly unkillable.

[correlation2]

lol!

The only thing worse than that is eThag's spray attack.

[TravR]

lol!

The only thing worse than that is eThag's spray attack.

Ravagore Blight Blast as well.

[Entiago]

regarding cost, I just wanted to chime in abit.

The Stormwall is price pointed at $135. Not all. This seems to be possibly the starting cost, or the roundabout cost point. As they mentioned the Khador Colossal is as wide as the legion battle engine is tall, and the Legion battle engine was at least $10 more expensive than the other battle engines. So the Khador Colossal could cost more than the $135.

I for one will be getting a Stormwall because I think it looks cool. I dont play Cygnar, I just want to paint it. I am still having a hard time justifying the purchase because of the price, but if a local player likes the rules he will buy it off me. The Cryx one (Kracken) I will also be purchasing because I play Cryx. But I will only get the Kracken IF I like the rules and its not too Overpowered.

As stated before by many people, you dont have to buy the colossal's. You dont need them to play. They are an awesome looking piece, but are not a necessity.

thats just what i wanted to chime in. They look cool so far, but the stats, abilities, and rules will determine if they are defiantly worth the price.

[althai]

If colossals can't trample over other 'jacks, I'm quitting Warmachine.

[quindraco]

If colossals can't trample over other 'jacks, I'm quitting Warmachine.

We already know they can't, from Templecon. They will trample as normal (i.e. they can't do it over medium or larger bases).

[correlation2]

That seems kind of surprising, actually. Can't see why they shouldn't be able to. They'd be facing a lot of free strikes.