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DemonCalibre
04-23-2012, 09:51 AM
If Bane Lord Tartarus kills an living enemy model affected by Carnal Flames, and I choose to resolve Death Toll before Carnal Flames what happens?

Since destroyed does not have the language to say that if a model is stop being destroyed it's affects stop resolving(unlike boxed and disabled), That means both effects would go off.

But if I resolve Death Toll, and the model is RFPed, and removed from the board due to RFP, there isn't a model to center the Carnal Flame Template. So what happens?

PxDnNinja
04-23-2012, 10:44 AM
If you remove from play on Disabled or Boxed, the model is never destroyed.

Remember, you get souls at the destroyed phase, but if you RFP at boxed, the model doesn't generate a soul. If Carnal Flames triggers on Destroyed, then it is the same concept.

Now if Carnal Flames triggers at Boxed or Disabled, you would handle it at the appropriate phase of the kill sequence.

Crate123
04-23-2012, 11:06 AM
After reading and re-reading both abilities several times I have arrived at a new (again) answer that I believe is correct.
They both trigger at the same point so will always both spawn thralls and place a template.

The thing Im a little unsure about though is this: does "removed from play" also counts as "removed from table". I assume so, otherwise if you trigger Death Toll first then you can not trigger Charnel Flames as well.


Edited, again.

Sheer_Falacy
04-23-2012, 02:05 PM
I assume you mean charnel flames, venethrax's feat, which doesn't actually remove from play so you can get both.

Crate123
04-23-2012, 02:18 PM
I assume you mean charnel flames, venethrax's feat, which doesn't actually remove from play so you can get both.

Doh I misread Charnel Flames as well.
Editing my post above...

DemonCalibre
04-23-2012, 02:23 PM
I was pretty sure I could get both, but I was more concerned that If I choose to Death toll, I can in effect turn Carnal Flames off(I.e. if I didn't want to make a cloud)

PxDnNinja
04-23-2012, 02:26 PM
I was pretty sure I could get both, but I was more concerned that If I choose to Death toll, I can in effect turn Carnal Flames off(I.e. if I didn't want to make a cloud)

That depends on the wording of the affects.

Death Toll doesn't stop the destroyed phase (from prior posts), and if Charnel Flames says "May create a cloud" as opposed to "When a model is disabled, place a cloud down" then yes. Otherwise it has to occur.

DemonCalibre
04-24-2012, 01:05 PM
That depends on the wording of the affects.

Death Toll doesn't stop the destroyed phase (from prior posts), and if Charnel Flames says "May create a cloud" as opposed to "When a model is disabled, place a cloud down" then yes. Otherwise it has to occur.

This isn't a disabled/boxed/destroyed question.

Both abilities trigger on destroyed, Carnal Flames is not a may, my very specific question is, if I Death Toll first which RFPs the model, what happens with Carnal Flames. It till goes off, as there is nothing in destroyed that says when a model stops being destroyed stop resolving effects, but if RFP the model, that means there is no model on the board to center the cloud on, so what do i do?

It's much like spawning whelps when a troll Warbeast dies, you can legality trigger the whelp spawn, but there is no beast to place it within an inch of.

PxDnNinja
04-24-2012, 01:30 PM
This isn't a disabled/boxed/destroyed question.

Both abilities trigger on destroyed, Carnal Flames is not a may, my very specific question is, if I Death Toll first which RFPs the model, what happens with Carnal Flames. It till goes off, as there is nothing in destroyed that says when a model stops being destroyed stop resolving effects, but if RFP the model, that means there is no model on the board to center the cloud on, so what do i do?

It's much like spawning whelps when a troll Warbeast dies, you can legality trigger the whelp spawn, but there is no beast to place it within an inch of.


I see your question, and my bad. Misunderstood what you were asking.

Your logic sounds right. If you trigger DeathToll first, which RFPs the model, then next effect (Charnel Flames) wouldn't have a model to trigger on.

Crate123
04-24-2012, 03:13 PM
This isn't a disabled/boxed/destroyed question.

Both abilities trigger on destroyed, Carnal Flames is not a may, my very specific question is, if I Death Toll first which RFPs the model, what happens with Carnal Flames. It till goes off, as there is nothing in destroyed that says when a model stops being destroyed stop resolving effects, but if RFP the model, that means there is no model on the board to center the cloud on, so what do i do?

It's much like spawning whelps when a troll Warbeast dies, you can legality trigger the whelp spawn, but there is no beast to place it within an inch of.

As far as I can tell it depends on whether Remove from Play in addition to being Remove from Play also counts as Remove from Table (at least in this case).
But honestly, Im not too solid with these abilities that both trigger at the same time. I tried searching for a recent thread where we had someone asking about Bilethrall Purge + Tough but damn if I can find that thread now.

DemonCalibre
04-24-2012, 08:10 PM
That is the crux of why I actually asked the question Crate.

Crate123
04-25-2012, 03:32 AM
That is the crux of why I actually asked the question Crate.

Well lets hope some one smarter than us gives us a helping hand then :)

drachenfels
04-25-2012, 04:06 AM
If you resolve Deathtoll first you don't get the effect from flames since there is no longer any model there to center the template on.
You can use Deathtoll after Flames tho since deathtoll creating a model is not dependent on removing the model from play, removing it from play is a secondary effect of the ability { [create a model stuff].(period) [remove model stuff] }

solkan
04-25-2012, 05:49 AM
as there is nothing in destroyed that says when a model stops being destroyed stop resolving effects

There doesn't really need to be. From Appendix A:

When resolving triggered effects, recheck trigger conditions as you resolve each ability. If a condition is no longer met, the effect does not resolve.

Is the model still destroyed? No. Then the effects which trigger on destruction are no longer triggered.

vintersbastard
04-25-2012, 12:43 PM
Is the model still destroyed? No. Then the effects which trigger on destruction are no longer triggered.

It's still destroyed. Resolution of triggered effects is only stopped on the disabled and boxed steps (cf. Prime, p. 67).



As far as I can tell it depends on whether Remove from Play in addition to being Remove from Play also counts as Remove from Table (at least in this case).
Well, going by this ruling (https://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?94241-Unyielding-vs-Primed&p=1260143&viewfull=1#post1260143), it seems to be the case that Removed from Play does remove the model from the table immediatly.

solkan
04-25-2012, 05:55 PM
According to Prime Mk II on removed from play:

Some rules cause a model to be removed from play; sometimes this is instead of being destroyed, and at other times this it is in addtion to being destroyed.
I assume that "in addition to" destroying the model essentially means "after resolving all effects triggered by destroyed".

Reading through the rules for Death Toll again, I'm not convinced that it causes the model to be removed from play immediately. Rules like Death Blast on the Bloat Thrall and Thrall Bomb on the Scrap Thrall all say to remove the model from play actively:

... and then remove this model from play.
Bane Lord Tartarus's Death Toll ability says:

The destroyed model is removed from play but does not provide a soul or corpse token.
which would seem to be an application of the "removed from play in addition to being destroyed" option.

So I think Death Toll is basically: You've destroyed a living model. After the attack is done, make this new model. By the way, that model that you destroyed gets removed from play (instead of just removed from the table) and doesn't generate a soul or corpse token.

In other words, "The destroyed model is removed from play, but does not generate soul or corpse tokens." is a constant effect (like gaining +2 SPD) of the ability, not a triggered effect.

As a result, there shouldn't be an option for order of evaluation here. It should be fixed at:
1. Living model is destroyed by the attack.
2. Carnal Flames triggers on the model's destruction.
3. The destroyed model is removed from play instead of being removed from the table.
4. Now that the attack is completely resolved, create the new model because of Death Toll.
and the other effect of Death Toll (that destroyed model gets removed from play and doesn't generate tokens) is simply applied when applicable, so no token grabbing.

Maudlin
04-25-2012, 11:26 PM
If an effect removes a model from play, it is removed immediately upon the resolution of that effect. In this case, the model also still counts as destroyed.

If there is no model to center a template on, you can't place a template.