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IneptHero
02-13-2010, 07:18 AM
Ok, so I searched and couldn't find an answer to a question that came up the other day.

If I try to cast Airburst with Irusk on a Retribution unit that has the Soulless Escort weapon attachment, does Airburst suffer the -5 Rng for a spell being cast on the unit? I know the Soulless Escorts ability doesn't affect sprays but was wondering if it affects spells with range Control Area.

Cambeul
02-13-2010, 07:35 AM
I am guessing no, since you are not really targeting a unit you are just placing a template.

Shadow37
02-13-2010, 07:51 AM
Airburst does in fact target a model, but since the range is "Ctrl" it shouldn't be effected by the Escort's ability.

gdaybloke
02-13-2010, 07:58 AM
Would it not then be ctrl-5?

IneptHero
02-13-2010, 09:05 AM
That's the crux of the problem. Airburst does target so does the Soulless Escort ability make the range of Airburst Ctrl-5? I can see arguments that go both ways.

Scalpel
02-13-2010, 09:29 AM
Considering Craft Talisman doesn't boost the range on SELF, SP, or CTRL spells, I don't see why the -5 would apply here.

Cloud-Gatherer
02-13-2010, 09:32 AM
"CTRL" is not a numerical range, so you can't subtract from it.

Silk8185
02-13-2010, 10:32 AM
"CTRL" isnt a numerical range in the same that "RNG" isnt, its a reference to a range that isnt static and therefore cannot be given a static figure in inches.

As scalpel pointed out though, other abilities that effect the RNG of something, specifically in his example spells, dont have any effect on spells with ranges of Self or Controll, so my guess would be the Escort has no effect on Airburst.

(but it is only a guess!)

Houston
02-13-2010, 04:34 PM
"CTRL" is not a numerical range, so you can't subtract from it.

The squire can add to it, so why can't an effect subtract from it?

Also doesn't Denegra's feat change control range since it changes the focus stat?

I can't see why the soulless wouldn't change what is already a variable numeric value.

Bladestorm
02-13-2010, 04:49 PM
Control Area (CTRL) can be effected by things that add or subtract from Control Area (CTRL) and by things that add or subtract from the focus stat (FOC) which it is calculated from.

The soulless escort's ability very specifically reduces Range (RNG) and not Control Area (CTRL) so it does not effect it.

IneptHero
02-15-2010, 06:16 AM
So, I still don't know which way this works. I would really love to get an Infernals ruling on this since I am playing in a league game later this week and my Irusk army will be going up against a Retribution army with Soulless Escort units.

paradox
02-15-2010, 06:25 AM
I'd encourage you to ask your league organizer to make a ruling until you can get an official one.

DemonCalibre
02-15-2010, 09:11 AM
I am pretty sure you can't subtract from control Inepthero.

Why? Because your subtracting 5 inches from what? Control Area is an Area, a squared unit, -5 RNG is a linear unit reduction, which means you actually can't subtract 5 from it.

Now you might say, I can subtract from the control *radius* but neither the soulless escort rule, or the rule for Airburst ever mention the Control Radius, more over, I don't think the game even talks about control radius.

GunMageinTraining
02-15-2010, 10:15 AM
I thought Airburst was a template you dropped within control area, and anything under it is 'targeted'. It skips the range reduction step I think.

DemonCalibre
02-15-2010, 10:33 AM
in MK1

Now it's a Nuke with RNG Control that can be shot at whoever without LOS.

Houston
02-15-2010, 06:11 PM
The problem is how the spell Airburst is templated. Every other spell with a range of control (CTRL) fits into one of the 4 following categories: 1) it places an AoE template or wall completely within in the warcaster's control area. For walls they cannot touch any model's base. 2) it moves friendly models within the confines of your control area. 3) it brings models back to play and places them in your control area. 4) it targets a friendly model in your control area for an effect that does not *target* opposing units (sacrificial lamb & Force blast). None of the other spells directly target an opponent's model/unit.

Because every spell in the category RNG=CTRL has the "Within your control area" within the wording of the text of the spell itself, it has a secondary check against effects that can increase spell range like Rahn's Feat or the Hierophant which allows it to ignore the bonuses provided since although the range might be greater than the control range, the wording of the spell prevents the effect from occurring outside the control range of the caster. (Example: the old Harbinger's Cataclysm spell did jack squat outside of 8inches, even with the Hierophant giving a range boost.)

The problem is that the "within your control range" clause on air burst only applies to the targeting restriction. Targeting is done independently of checking a spell's range. That is done after a target is selected.

Pg 77: After declaring a target, measure to see if the target is within the Range (RNG) of the spell.
Pg 76: Range - The maximum distance in inches from the spell's point of origin to its target...A range of "CTRL' indicates the spell uses the spellcaster's control area as its range.

Because distance is linear in inches (a numerical value) and not an area, we do have an actual number to work with.

The Mage Static ability of the soulless states that the range reduction is done after the targeting step, so we have a number in inches that we are subtracting 5 from. There shouldn't be a problem with letting Mage Static function in that case.

There should be noted that unlike the spray attack which is specifically prohibited for utilizing range boosts or penalties (pg 60), there is no such rule for spells with a range of CTRL.

Hence the foundation for my belief that although the soulless' unit could be the target of airburst, the spell can still fail for lack of actual range.

DemonCalibre
02-15-2010, 07:27 PM
Pg 76: Range - The maximum distance in inches from the spell's point of origin to its target...A range of "CTRL' indicates the spell uses the spellcaster's control area as its range.

Because distance is linear in inches (a numerical value) and not an area, we do have an actual number to work with.


The bolded is mine, That is where the arguement falls apart, You said it yourself, range CTRL means we uses the Warcasters Control Area as it's range, CTRL value as you said yourself is an Area, we can not subtract linear units from an area.

Though having an Area be a range causes other mechanical issues, since we are not told specificly(in the rules) on how to deal with it.

This is a nitpick, How the spell is intended to work is clear, the interaction with Magic Static is not, and by extending that. It seems the spell doesn't work properly at all.

Frankly I think we need an infernal response.

Cloud-Gatherer
02-15-2010, 07:39 PM
But RNG=CTRL does not mean RNG="a number of inches equal to twice this model's FOC stat." It means that if the target model is in the caster's Control Area, it's in range. If Mage Static said to treat the target model/unit as being 5" further away than it actually is, that'd be one thing, but it doesn't. It specifies a -5 penalty to RNG, which means nothing to Airburst because it checks for range by checking Control Area.

Houston
02-15-2010, 08:11 PM
Page 75: under Control Area.
Some spells and feats use the control area, noted as "CTRL" as their range or area of effect.

Range between models is measured linearly in every context. I have yet to see a use of range that is determined by an area. However I think DemonCalibre has a very good point:


Frankly I think we need an infernal response.

Stevo
02-15-2010, 09:10 PM
The squire can add to it, so why can't an effect subtract from it?

Also doesn't Denegra's feat change control range since it changes the focus stat?

I can't see why the soulless wouldn't change what is already a variable numeric value.

Nice to see you and IneptHero on here, Houston!

Both of those examples specifically mention modifying the Control Area or the stat that the Control Area is derived from. Mage Static does neither, so I don't see the Squire or Deny's Feat as being relevant.

Since Mage Static doesn't impact the Focus Stat or Control Area, it doesn't matter what the linear distance is to the target. The target is still within that range as long as the target is within the Control Area. You could subtract 8 million inches from the range, and the target would still be within the Control Area, and therefore within range of the spell.

I'm still hoping for a speedy response from the Infernals.

malfred
02-15-2010, 09:28 PM
The squire specifically modifies control area in its word text.

Anyway, the word RNG is a specific stat for ranged attacks and spells. If an effect
modifies the distance of RNG, then those attacks and spells would be modified.

If an effect simply gives you a distance for that effect, then it is not modified.

Consider the spell Snipe and the difference between the Long Gunner Suppressing Fire
Order and the Cyclone. Snipe has no effect on the Long Gunner UA because the
Long Gunner UA simply says "place within 14". There's a range and a distance,
but the effect isn't modified by the unit's RNG.

With the Cyclone, Dual Covering Fire is placed within the Cyclone's RNG, and
therefore Snipe does affect the distance that a Cyclone can place the effect.

Another example would be Siege's Ground Pounder attack. Snipe extends
the range of the template placement because the word text specifically states
RNG, and Snipe affects RNG.

Caine's feat Maelstrom is a good example where RNG and Control Area are
specifically shown to be separate things. If you Snipe Caine, he can't use his
feat to shoot at things outside of his Control Area because Snipe modifies
his pistol's RNG, but the feat specifies that he can shoot at targets in his CTRL
area.

Therefore, a spell targeting a model inside a 'caster's CTRL area is not modified
by the Escort's debuff to RNG as the Escort does not specifically affect CTRL
area.

Wishing
02-15-2010, 11:46 PM
Caine's feat isn't a spell so doesn't have a RNG to be modified. His pistols' RNG is modified by Snipe, but the feat isn't interested in that, since it uses his CTRL not the RNG of the pistols. So not really relevant.

I personally agree with most that Airburst shouldn't be affected by the range reduction, but I don't see anything in the rules that says that spells with a RNG of CTRL can't be reduced in the same way as spells with a RNG of a fixed number. So the only way to know for sure what the intent is is to wait for an infernal to check with PPS.

AJ the Ronin
02-16-2010, 05:35 AM
Caine1 feat is indeed interesting. If Caine has snipe and cast his feat he makes attacks with his pistol to models in his control area. Yet if the has the squire and do not have snipe in him may only attack models in range on his weapons. The models between 12.00001" and 14" are affected by his feat but he can not attacked because they are out of range.

Also (and I know is Mk.1) but I remember that Shae's spell that reduced RGN affected Caine1 feats RGN.

Houston
02-16-2010, 06:37 AM
Caine1 feat is indeed interesting. If Caine has snipe and cast his feat he makes attacks with his pistol to models in his control area. Yet if the has the squire and do not have snipe in him may only attack models in range on his weapons. The models between 12.00001" and 14" are affected by his feat but he can not attacked because they are out of range.

In your example, the models within 14 inches can be targeted by his attacks though and given the wording on his feat, they would be. Anything that triggered of of being targeted by a ranged attack would trigger on those models between 12.01 and 14.0 inches away. However his pistols do have a finite range value and in the range determining step, they would automatically miss (pg 56-Measuring range) those targets in the "limnal' space.

The hangup that we're hitting on the "CTRL" range spells is because if you take the name of the term very literally, we are told to use a 2 (or 3 if control area extends in all 3 dimensions, in which case we have control volume-oy vey!) dimensional area to measure from the nearest edge of the model's base to the nearest edge of the target's base, which is a straight line given that our models have circular bases. There is an inherent disagreement as to how range modifiers would effect the resolution of this spell.

There is no disagreement as to the targeting of the models. You can target any model that is in your control range with this spell (questions of back arc vs. front arc aside). LOS is not a requirement. The disagreement involves the next step after Declaring a Target: Measuring Range.

Stevo
02-16-2010, 06:39 AM
No range is measured, though. The target is either within the Control Area or it isn't. This line of thought is adding something to the resolution of Control Area Spells that doesn't exist.

Lunatic Calm
02-16-2010, 06:52 AM
Checking...

DemonCalibre
02-16-2010, 07:08 AM
Houstons very legitimate point though is Stevo

That checking to see if someone is in your control range, is checking a range, and can be translated into a linear nature, from the distance from your caster to the target, maxing out at your CTRL.

I can see it going both ways.

Stevo
02-16-2010, 07:49 AM
You can only measure range to something in your Control Area if it is within your Control Area to begin with. If it's within the Control Area, then the spell can be cast. It's really that simple.

What is being argued would effectively cause the range of a spell to be measured twice, and then applying a negative modifier to the second measurement.

Wishing
02-16-2010, 10:01 AM
You can only measure range to something in your Control Area if it is within your Control Area to begin with. If it's within the Control Area, then the spell can be cast. It's really that simple.

What is being argued would effectively cause the range of a spell to be measured twice, and then applying a negative modifier to the second measurement.

It's true that when it says "Target any model in this model's control area", that implies that you measure CTRL first, then select an eligible model, as opposed to a normal attack where you select the target first and then measure the range afterwards.

However, it is only an implication as far as I can tell. You could also argue that you select the target first, then measure the range (CTRL -5) like any other attack. Since you can measure your CTRL at any time, it is normally irrelevant when you measure the range, but in the case of a model that specifically lowers your range when you target it, it matters.

Stevo
02-16-2010, 10:51 AM
Blah blah blah blah.

Edited because Stevo didn't read his book thoroughly.

Houston
02-16-2010, 01:36 PM
I You NEVER measure a distance to the target. There is NO requirement stating you have to measure to the unit, only the Control Area of the Warcaster or Warlock.

Hey Stevo, nice to see our TO peek in here. I'm going to politely disagree with some of your statements, and maybe I misread them. If so, please ignore this.

There is a step by step process in casting a spell (pg 77):
1: announce what you are casting and pay costs
1a: if it is an upkeep spell, other copies of that spell cast by the same caster expire.

2: declare a target
2a: check to make sure the target is legal (N.B. Airburst has a targeting restriction: If the target is not in your control range it can't be the TARGET of the spell).

3: After declaring the target, measure to see if the target is within the range of the spell. The measurement is mandatory, and no exception is made for spells with RNG=CTRL to get around the need to measure targeted spells (first sentence under the heading MEASURING RANGE p 77). Normally this wouldn't be a big issue with Airburst since you're already measured to determine if the target is legal, but we may have something else happening here: Mage Static from soulless escort.


Mage Static (FoW: RoS 85) states explicitly that magic attacks targeting a model in this unit suffer -5 RNG.

The question is entering discussion under the definition of RNG from page 76. It states: "A RNG of CTRL indicates the spell uses the spell caster's control area as its range." and on page 75: "Some spells and feats use the control area, noted as "CTRL" as their range or area of effect."

The basic question here: does the RNG=CTRL mean that RNG -5 is equivalent to CTRL -5 ?


Post Script: Control is expressed as a linear Numeric Distance. For an example of this, check under the Kador caster Zoktavir. He has a Control of 12 inches. Not a control of (12^2)x3.1415297 inches squared. Also, as stated previously, Spray effects are not under question since there is an explicit rule that precludes them from being effected by Mage Static.

Stevo
02-16-2010, 01:51 PM
I stand corrected on the issue of measuring for a Control Area spell.

However, the only things that modify a Control Area are those rules that specifically do so. Were Mage Static to work against Control Area spells, then spells like Mageblight and Purification (which don't target, but do determine range) would also be changed. Seems to me to be beyond the scope of an ability on a 1 point weapon attachment.

AJ the Ronin
02-16-2010, 01:58 PM
Mageblight and Purification don't target any model. Airbust does and the Souless Escort ability trigger when the model is targeted.

Stevo
02-16-2010, 02:12 PM
Mageblight and Purification don't target any model. Airbust does and the Souless Escort ability trigger when the model is targeted.

DOH!

I need to use better ventilation when I prime my models...

Stevo
02-16-2010, 02:19 PM
I've searched through both PDF documents and only Airburst, Primal Shock, and Essence Blast are "Ctrl" spells that target models. Of those, only Airburst targets an enemy model. In this age of cut and past powers it seems a bit strange that this is the only instance, and hence the only possible rules conflict. Weird.

Houston
02-16-2010, 02:34 PM
Quick reference of spells with Range of CTRL. (note this may not be all inclusive, as I am going off of an older PDF for a number of the models, nor may the wording be entirely accurate, but it should give a quick reference for checking them.) Airburst was the only one I could find that targeted enemy models.



*Kraye/Siege- Mage Sight-place a 5 inch aoe completely within this model?s control area.
*Gorten-Rock wall-place a wall template anywhere completely in this model?s control area where it does not touch a model?s base, an obstruction or an obstacle.
*High Reclaimer-Sacrificial Lamb- Remove one friendly living faction model in this model?s control area from play and allocate one focus point to each warjack model in this model?s battlegroup that is currently in its control area.
*Feora-Wall of Fire- place the wall template anywhere completely in this model?s control area where it does not touch a model?s base, an obstruction or an obstacle
*Kaya-Spirit Door-Select a model in this model?s battlegroup that is in its control range
*Baldur-place an aoe entirely within the control area
*Moshar-Pillar of salt-place an aoe in the control area
*Mordikaar-Essence blast- Choose a friendly living faction model in this model?s control area.
*Mordikaar/Testament- Revive-Return one destroyed friendly faction grunt to play.
*Absylonia-Blight field-Place the 4 inch aoe anywhere completely in this model?s control area.
*Vlad ? Windblast- Place a 5 inch aoe completely in this model?s control area.
*Irusk/Epic Irusk-Airburst-Target any model in this model?s control area, ignoring LOS. When resolving Airburst, ignore cover, concealment, elevation, and Stealth. Models hit suffer a POW 8 blast damage roll.
*Epic Irusk-Artifice of Deviation-Place an 5inch aoe completely in this model?s control area.
*Old Witch-Murder of crows-Place 5 inch aoe in the control area.
*Old Witch-Unseen path. Place Scrapjack within 2 inches of this mdoel or place old witch within 2 inches of scrapjack.
*Zerkova- Target a model in this model?s battlegroup in its control area.
*Asphyxius-Caustic Mist-Place a 3 inch aoe cloud effect completely in this model?s control area.
*Goreshade-Soul Gate-Remove a friendly trooper model in this model?s control area from play and replace it with a warjack in this model?s battlegroup that is in its control area.
*Shae/Ravyn/Witch Coven-Veil of Mists. Place a 4 inch aoe completely within this model?s control area.
*Siege-Fox Hole- Place a 5inch aoe completely within this mdoel?s control area.

Houston
02-16-2010, 02:43 PM
Mageblight and Purification don't target any model. Airbust does and the Souless Escort ability trigger when the model is targeted.

Purification (the Harbinger version at least) targets herself-her card has RNG Self. The AOE is CTRL, so it wouldn't care about the Soulless.

TimBuckToo
02-16-2010, 08:02 PM
Caine1 feat is indeed interesting. If Caine has snipe and cast his feat he makes attacks with his pistol to models in his control area. Yet if the has the squire and do not have snipe in him may only attack models in range on his weapons. The models between 12.00001" and 14" are affected by his feat but he can not attacked because they are out of range.

I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. First off, it's a feat. A feat that specifically says 'Spellstorm pistol attack against every enemy model in his control area'. The feat is a special one time thing that allows him to ignore the range of his pistols for that one turn(only during the feat).

The text is clear and no amount of rules lawyering will change it, with all due respect.

Kommissar Golovko
02-16-2010, 08:11 PM
Exactly. It's a normal Spellstorm pistol attack and the pistol has a RNG value. Nothing in his feat overrides the RNG so even with the Squire extending his CTRL area, the limit of 12" RNG is still enforced. He can try to attack models in his modified CTRL area but it will automatically miss anything beyond the 12" RNG limit.

This has been ruled already before to work this way.

KujakuDM
02-16-2010, 08:11 PM
with it bieng a ranged attack though Phantasm still effects it.

TimBuckToo
02-16-2010, 08:15 PM
Exactly. It's a normal Spellstorm pistol attack and the pistol has a RNG value. Nothing in his feat overrides the RNG so even with the Squire extending his CTRL area, the limit of 12" RNG is still enforced. He can try to attack a model in his modified CTRL area but it will automatically miss.

This has been ruled already before to work this way.

My search showed no such ruling, could you PM me that link please.

The 'normal' portion of the text means he can't ignore things like Stealth and Holy Zealots affected by Greater Destiny

Kommissar Golovko
02-16-2010, 08:17 PM
It might be in the old rules area in the old forum. Check there.

Normal is normal. Nothing about ignoring anything. What is a normal Spellstorm pistol? It is a pistol with RNG12, ROF2, POW12, AoE - magical weapon. No changes anywhere. Therefore as I said, you can attack the model in the 12"<X<14" range band but without Snipe, it will automatically miss because it is beyond your pistol's range. Being able to attack something in an enlarged control area doesn't mean you can't miss because the target was beyond your pistol's range.

KujakuDM
02-16-2010, 08:17 PM
sorry man, but the rules say make a spellstorm pistol attack against everyone in his controll area, you do ignore interveneing models but you dont ignore LOS rules for terrain. If it is not stated as ignored you dont ignore it.

whats82
02-16-2010, 08:22 PM
Caine could always snipe himself and with squire feat to shoot everything within 14", LoS allowing. Without snipe he only shoots up to 12", what's to be confused about that ?

It's make an attack, not make an attack roll. All targetting restrictions apply normally.

TimBuckToo
02-16-2010, 08:25 PM
Caine could always snipe himself and with squire feat to shoot everything within 14", LoS allowing. Without snipe he only shoots up to 12", what's to be confused about that ?


It's not confusing. The feat doesn't say that.

This whole thing really needs Infernal intervention.

Kommissar Golovko
02-16-2010, 08:27 PM
The feat does not say extend the RNG of the pistol to 14" either.

whats82
02-16-2010, 08:43 PM
I would suggest you start a new thread on that topic then.

Cambeul
02-16-2010, 10:44 PM
Isnt CNTRL a range that is a area that is measured from the base of the caster? and not a actual distance?

And the only thing that may effect it is something that can effect your casters Focus stat?

Wishing
02-17-2010, 01:30 AM
Isnt CNTRL a range that is a area that is measured from the base of the caster? and not a actual distance?

And the only thing that may effect it is something that can effect your casters Focus stat?

That's what's currently being debated. What you describe sounds appropriate and how many people understand it - there just doesn't seem to be anything in the rules that says that spells with a RNG of CTRL cannot have their range reduced (other than by changing the FOC stat that the CTRL is based on).

AJ the Ronin
02-17-2010, 06:44 AM
My search showed no such ruling, could you PM me that link please.

The 'normal' portion of the text means he can't ignore things like Stealth and Holy Zealots affected by Greater Destiny

I though like you but I was told in harsher words that the one said here (this board is very unforgiving if your name is green and you mess up) that it was not the case.

The 'normal' not only include things like Stealth and what not. It also refers to the POW and RGN of the weapon. If he has the squire and not snipe the normal attack is still 12".

Back in the day if something was within 12" and 14" and then move in range you could target it once it moved. Now you can't even do that since the attacks are simultaneous. That means that all movements will happen when he finish resolving all attacks.

possiblyarowbot
02-17-2010, 05:37 PM
Why is there even a discussion of this? If the range of a spell is control, it's making a reference. Mage static does not say -5 the RNG of some stat referenced on another card that may or may not be present.

If you can figure out a way to subtract 5 from the letters C,T,R and L, there might be a need to continue, but this feels way too much like scraping for a loophole.

And for anyone who would say, "but what about a range of *"? Well, the spell itself will dictate what that numerical value is.

:Cont-Fire:

DemonCalibre
02-17-2010, 08:01 PM
Possibly, things that are obvious aren't always obvious.

The Argument "It's obvious how you should play it" really doesn't carry much weight, I have found out on several occasions that me and my entire play group have spent years playing abilities wrong. A perfect example is MK1 Light Cavalry, everyone I ever met played it wrong, it wasn't even a ruling, it was someone asking a question that everyone thought was obvious, and all the obvious folks were wrong.

Having been a participant and follower of the rules forum for a very long time, this is a situation where they likely outcome is what you have stated, but there have been other situations where the likely outcome was bucked for a ruling that puzzled everyone, and was eventually accepted.

possiblyarowbot
02-18-2010, 02:56 AM
Hey, I'm all for more shenanigans, but I stand by my statement that this is silly in that it defies mathematics. Everyone knows you don't get to have an upper-hand on Khador. It's in the rules somewhere...

Wishing
02-18-2010, 07:19 AM
I dunno, I think your argument that CTRL can't be modified because it is making a reference to a model stat is a bit thin. CTRL represents a number and that number can be modified. Why is that unmathematical?

Yurimow
02-18-2010, 09:34 AM
I think it's pretty easy. Airburst says "target enemy model in control area blablabla...". So in order to be a legal target, you do not have to be within control range (weird word; does it even show up in the rules?), but within control area. The soulless escort can't change that: the model of the unit simply is or is not in Irusk' control area.

If Airburst said: "target enemy model within RNG blablabla..." and looking at the spell's statline you see RNG: 14, then the -5" would definetly apply. But it doesn't.

Soylent
02-18-2010, 09:59 AM
I think it's pretty easy. Airburst says "target enemy model in control area blablabla...". So in order to be a legal target, you do not have to be within control range (weird word; does it even show up in the rules?), but within control area. The soulless escort can't change that: the model of the unit simply is or is not in Irusk' control area.

If Airburst said: "target enemy model within RNG blablabla..." and looking at the spell's statline you see RNG: 14, then the -5" would definetly apply. But it doesn't.


This looks right.

ColdYinTiger
02-18-2010, 10:00 AM
Things that modify control areas tend to be things that modify permanent focus/fury and things that specifically stat it modifies the control area.

Houston
02-18-2010, 10:35 AM
I think it's pretty easy. Airburst says "target enemy model in control area blablabla...". So in order to be a legal target, you do not have to be within control range (weird word; does it even show up in the rules?), but within control area. The soulless escort can't change that: the model of the unit simply is or is not in Irusk' control area.

If Airburst said: "target enemy model within RNG blablabla..." and looking at the spell's statline you see RNG: 14, then the -5" would definetly apply. But it doesn't.

It isn't that easy. There is no "control range" in prime. There is spell Range RNG and control Area CTRL.

Airburst like all spells, both checks to 1) see if you have a legal target and THEN 2) you measure to see if that target is in range. The "target an enemy model in control area" is a TARGETING restriction. It is NOT a range restriction. The RNG of the spell is listed as CTRL. We're trying to figure out if the Soulless effects the RNG of offensive spells with range of CTRL. The soulless ability has no impact on how the spell is targeted.

Note: Airburst is the ONLY offensive spell that targets enemy models *and* has a range of CTRL.

This would be so much more hilarious if Kador had an arc node Irusk could use...

Houston
02-18-2010, 10:38 AM
Things that modify control areas tend to be things that modify permanent focus/fury and things that specifically stat it modifies the control area.

The result being: Focus stat FOC sets the Control Area CTRL , but things that modify Control Area CTRL (like the squire) don't modify your focus stat. But they do work as intended and modify your control area. Here CTRL is setting the spell range RNG. Does the soulless ability impact on that range?

Following this chain of logic, the answer should be yes, it does.

Yurimow
02-18-2010, 10:42 AM
So if i get it right, the actual point is not how the spell is wirtten, but the RNG stat in the staline?

Stevo
02-18-2010, 10:55 AM
I feel confident that CTRL area spells will not have a range to measure, since it is measuring twice for the same spell.

I completely agree that a model is either within a Control Area or it isn't, and nothing can change that unless it directly impacts the Focus Stat (such as Deneghra's Feat) or explicitly indicates in its rules (such as the Squire).

Houston does have a valid question, though. You do have to measure the range to the target.

That's the long and the short of this particular dead horse.

Lunatic Calm has already chimed in that the Infernals are on it.

Cloud-Gatherer
02-18-2010, 11:06 AM
Houston, I'm going to ask the obvious question: would your position be the same if your army did not contain the model being debated? This is beginning to feel like you're lobbying really hard to shut out the one spell in the game that ignores your model's special rule.

Leaving that aside, though: Mage Static modifies RNG. It does not modify CTRL. It does not change the distance between the two models. Straight from the rulebook - A RNG of “CTRL” indicates the spell uses the spellcaster’s control area as its range.

The target model is still in Irusk's CTRL area.

Let's look at another example: if Allister Caine had a RNG=CTRL spell, would you be arguing so hard that his pistols and their Range Amplifier give him an effective CTRL area of 17"?

Houston
02-18-2010, 11:46 AM
Houston, I'm going to ask the obvious question: would your position be the same if your army did not contain the model being debated? This is beginning to feel like you're lobbying really hard to shut out the one spell in the game that ignores your model's special rule.


Should we ignore the rules in favor of a position we want to be true? no. That is not what I'm advocating. I too am looking for clarification of the ruling so I know how to best utilize my troops. Do I want it to work? Of course, but it isn't going to hurt me if it doesn't work that way. Do I think my interpretation of the rules has some merit? I do. Because I play with the model, should that somehow make my points less valid?

What I have argued about is how rules are different from the old prime, and for people to check what the rules themselves state before blithely posting. I'd like to see people giving out page numbers and full sentence quotes to back stuff up, because that reinforces our knowledge of the rules. I even give full quotes that hurt my supposed wishes because they are useful in determining how the game can be played correctly.

The initial question was raised by a Kador player whom I love like a brother. He was the one who raised the issue before it even came up in actual play. I myself am unsure of the ruling since the definitions don't add up and also asked our Tournament Organizer to check this area out as well. Half of my arguments are directed towards influencing him (Stevo, would that make me Corbeau, Zerkova, or Severus?).

So to answer your question: Yes I'd still support my position even if I did not have the model. To create an exception to an effect when no exception is explicitly stated is a bit confusing and it involves more rules lawyering than I'm comfortable with in a normally friendly game. In a normal game, we would have rolled the dice and moved on long ago. I'm trying to avoid another situation where I have to explain to new players how I could run my Darton Vilmon and still forfeit my action while remaining in Impervious Wall when it goes against common sense-something the new rules have tried hard to rectify. Creating singular exceptions makes the game complicated and I like it to be simple.

Stevo
02-18-2010, 12:43 PM
I agree that Houston's motives are above board here. He's a player in our local group and a good guy. I'd also point out that I play Retribution and thoroughly disagree with Mage Static working against Airburst.

I find the debate over this entertaining, especially since this kind of interaction only happens between Airburst and Mage Static. It's unique.

Wishing
02-18-2010, 01:42 PM
I find the debate over this entertaining, especially since this kind of interaction only happens between Airburst and Mage Static. It's unique.

Yep, which is how issues like this crop up. When they wrote the Escort rule they presumably didn't have Airburst in mind, being the only spell of its type so far, so how the two rules interact haven't been seen as needing clarification - possibly hasn't been considered.

I see loads of people in this thread chiming in with their own reasons for why Airburst shouldn't affected by the range reduction. This is all well and good, but these ideas don't change the fact that the question isn't answered by the rulebook and the only way to get a ruling is to wait for it. Like Stevo, I am confident of what the answer will be, but our individual opinions won't affect the official ruling, so there's no reason to get too embroiled in debate when waiting is the only solution.

Kuarnix
02-18-2010, 02:03 PM
This looks right.


I agree....the Soulless Escort (and Zerkova's Orgoth Seal, for that matter) do not reduce the range of sprays, for example, so I'm not sure why they'd reduce a control area range either.

mege
02-18-2010, 02:54 PM
I agree....the Soulless Escort (and Zerkova's Orgoth Seal, for that matter) do not reduce the range of sprays, for example, so I'm not sure why they'd reduce a control area range either.

Sprays are template-based - the 'SP10' value really indicates what template to use more than the actual size (but the name and length of the template coincide for simplicity). So, it doesn't seem like the same thing as we're dealing with... or is it?

Is CTRL a virtual template = to the 2xFOC radius around your caster or is it a converted number value? This answer probably has more implications in Hordes than we've realized too (though I have not been able to find one reading through the Mk2 test cards)...

Kuarnix
02-18-2010, 03:10 PM
Sprays are template-based - the 'SP10' value really indicates what template to use more than the actual size (but the name and length of the template coincide for simplicity). So, it doesn't seem like the same thing as we're dealing with... or is it?

Is CTRL a virtual template = to the 2xFOC radius around your caster or is it a converted number value? This answer probably has more implications in Hordes than we've realized too (though I have not been able to find one reading through the Mk2 test cards)...


That's kind of how I was seeing it. The comparison that I draw is that a SP8 template will always be able to hit models under it out to 8", and if Zerkova/Soulless Escort are at, say, 7", they can still be hit by it even though they have abilities that reduce the range of the spell. It doesn't become a 3" template due to Orgoth Seal - though you could only measure 3" if you really wanted to due to the inch markings on the template - nor does it downgrade the size of the template. Similarly, I don't see why it would reduce the distance on a range: CTRL spell. Being 13" away from Irusk while reducing the range of his spells by -5 (for Zerkova at least, is it same for the Soulless?) doesn't put you outside his control area, therefore you are still an eligable target.

DemonCalibre
02-18-2010, 03:15 PM
The counter to that, is Sprays have a Rule specificly exempting them from range reduction, so nothing about the sprays being a template makes them immune to range reduction.

Wishing
02-18-2010, 03:18 PM
Sprays are template-based - the 'SP10' value really indicates what template to use more than the actual size (but the name and length of the template coincide for simplicity). So, it doesn't seem like the same thing as we're dealing with... or is it?

I guess in principle it is kind of the same. You wouldn't have to make up a new SP5 template in order to reduce a SP10 template by 5 after all, you can just lay out the normal template and then measure up to 5 inches with your measuring tape to see how far the spray would go. That just seems even more counterintuitive than letting it reduce CTRL.

It just shows that the Escort's ability is having some growing pains - with it being the first ability to reduce ranges I'm aware of, it isn't taken into account in the rules. To handle these questions effectively, the rulebook should contain the line "Weapons and spells with a RNG of SP or CTRL are not affected by abilities that reduce RNG". Or something to that effect.

Edit1:

The counter to that, is Sprays have a Rule specificly exempting them from range reduction, so nothing about the sprays being a template makes them immune to range reduction.

Ok, sounds like sprays already have that rule then. We just need the same for CTRL. It does make you wonder why it isn't there already then, if they already considered range reductions when writing the book...

Edit2:
Ok, Zerkova has a range reduction ability too? I think I should just back out of this thread as I seem to be out of my depth...

Soylent
02-18-2010, 03:20 PM
Sprays are template-based - the 'SP10' value really indicates what template to use more than the actual size (but the name and length of the template coincide for simplicity). So, it doesn't seem like the same thing as we're dealing with... or is it?

Is CTRL a virtual template = to the 2xFOC radius around your caster or is it a converted number value? This answer probably has more implications in Hordes than we've realized too (though I have not been able to find one reading through the Mk2 test cards)...


You still have to target with a spray as do you with Airburst.

Kuarnix
02-18-2010, 03:31 PM
The counter to that, is Sprays have a Rule specificly exempting them from range reduction, so nothing about the sprays being a template makes them immune to range reduction.


True dat, and that's partially where I'm coming from - we are clearly meant not to subtract inches from spells that determine targets in an area in this fashion, and even if we can find a good reason to do so it will be rectified as quickly as Jr's inability to boost using RAW. Also, I would want to point out that since that is the case for sprays, there might be a rule regarding range CTRL spells in Prime mkII besides that on page 76. Though reading that one, it doesn't say "use it's control area as the spells range in inches", it just says use control area as range, which implies to me at least that you can't subtract a value in inches from it.

mege
02-18-2010, 03:55 PM
Or the statement of sprays not being prone to range reduction is just to further clarify the situation and put off discussions like we're having now. I've learned long ago in gaming that rules are not always unique. Sometime there are redundancies just for clarity and not to be used as an exception to normality. Without that statement about SP not being effected by range reduction/addition - I think we'd be having this discussion about SPx Ranges. Perhaps CTRL needs the same clarification (either way).

I guess with this situation (and I'm a total noob outsider) I'm viewing the Range = CTRL to basically be treated like a huge template placed over the caster... "pick one in here" not a point-point range like a normal ranged effort. This reasoning also lends to the flavor of the Airburst spell as it's supposed to be a sneaky-get-anywhere bugger.

Stevo
02-18-2010, 05:59 PM
This answer probably has more implications in Hordes than we've realized too (though I have not been able to find one reading through the Mk2 test cards)...

There are only two or three spells that are Range = Control Area, Offensive, and target a model. None of those spells target an enemy model. Some of them have secondary range effects, but those would be subject to Mage Static because they clearly fall into the category of spells it modifies.

Strange_Eric
02-18-2010, 11:05 PM
I'm having trouble understand how -5 affects a word.
As that word is determined by looking up another stat, which has nothing to do with RNG. So its either subtracting from letters, which it cannot possibly do.
Or trying to subtract from a stat which it can't subtract from.

I dunno. Just what I'm looking at.

Wishing
02-19-2010, 05:17 AM
I'm having trouble understand how -5 affects a word.
As that word is determined by looking up another stat, which has nothing to do with RNG. So its either subtracting from letters, which it cannot possibly do.
Or trying to subtract from a stat which it can't subtract from.


That's because you choose to see it that way. You could just as easily say that the word CTRL represents a number and that number can be subtracted from with no difficulty whatsoever. It's just two conflicting viewpoints, but I don't see either of them as being hard to understand.

IneptHero
02-19-2010, 06:14 AM
Hey everybody,

Just checking back in to see if my question had gotten answered yet. Nope. Alright. I do want to point out that Houston is just wanting the rules to be clarified because they can be read both ways. I just wanted to get an answer before it came up in one of our games so that we played it correctly. Granted if we don't get an answer soon, we might just have to dice off for it before our next game starts.

Anyway, guess I will just check back here tomorrow.

Steampunk Jim
02-19-2010, 06:23 AM
Don't hold your breath too long. With a ruling like this, the infernals need to make sure they get it right, so it may take awhile.

Stevo
02-19-2010, 11:33 AM
Something else I just realized.

Cataclysm is a spell that automatically hits any target. It has an 8" range. What happens if it targets a unit with a Soulless Escort? Would it deviate?

blue loki
02-19-2010, 12:01 PM
Cataclysm has no effect if the target is out of range, not outside of 8". If the RNG of the spell changes, the limit changes with it.

Stevo
02-19-2010, 12:09 PM
Cataclysm has no effect if the target is out of range, not outside of 8". If the RNG of the spell changes, the limit changes with it.


Thanks! I missed the "out of range" part.

DemonCalibre
02-19-2010, 03:19 PM
As a note, I don't think the fact the Spray has the rule that says it's range can't be reduced, is indicative that CTRL range spells can be reduced, because they lack that wording.

Privateer and the Inferanals don't really want us to use that backwards thought process, since this rule has a thing, and this rule does not, that implies that this interaction works, all the time. That logic has always been a slippery slope with rulings going both ways, so it's always a shaky justification.

Darque
02-25-2010, 02:55 PM
So is there an official answer to this one yet?

ar2
02-25-2010, 03:57 PM
Exactly. It's a normal Spellstorm pistol attack and the pistol has a RNG value. Nothing in his feat overrides the RNG so even with the Squire extending his CTRL area, the limit of 12" RNG is still enforced. He can try to attack models in his modified CTRL area but it will automatically miss anything beyond the 12" RNG limit.

This has been ruled already before to work this way.

This has indeed been ruled on before and it's in accord with the above statement.

Houston
02-25-2010, 05:00 PM
So is there an official answer to this one yet?

Still waiting on Infernal clarification.

whats82
02-25-2010, 05:07 PM
Please don't bump threads, answers will be provided when available, bumping will only lead to thread being locked.

Macallan
02-28-2010, 02:11 PM
If I try to cast Airburst with Irusk on a Retribution unit that has the Soulless Escort weapon attachment, does Airburst suffer the -5 Rng for a spell being cast on the unit? I know the Soulless Escorts ability doesn't affect sprays but was wondering if it affects spells with range Control Area.
Anything in the control area of the warcaster is in range of a spell with RNG CTRL, regardless of the distance to the point of origin of the spell. As Mage Static does not affect the control area, it doesn't affect Airburst.