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uri19
02-13-2010, 12:14 PM
Morvhanna casts Regrowth on a units of Wolves of Orboros with the UA.
I found this (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=936) thread stating that if the wolves were all destroyed as the Leader or standard (ie Leader killed -> field promotion -> new Leader killed -> field promotion -> ... or standard killed -> take up -> new standard killed -> take up -> ...), she cannot bring back any of them.


But let's assume for a moment that the Wolf Grunts were all killed as Grunts and that the Leader and Officer were killed as well. The unit is just the standard bearer, under the effect of Regrowth.

Field promotion reads:


When a unit?s Leader is destroyed, removed from play, or otherwise no longer part of its unit, choose a Grunt in that model?s unit to take its place and become the new Leader.
(emphasis mine)

The way I see it, this can go several ways:
1. Fury is payed for Regrowth.
2. At least one destroyed Grunt model returns to the table.

Then the question arises:
When I bring back a Wolf Grunt with Regrowth, does it get field promoted?
3a. Since the rule quoted above has events that are quoted as happening (removed, destroyed) just before the field promotion happens, the sentence actually means "when the Leader ... or stops being a part of the unit". Since that happened in the past, when the Leader was destroyed, the field promotion doesn't kick in, and the Grunt remains a Grunt. The standard bearer remains the unit commander.
-or-
3b. A Grunt model exists in the unit, and the Leader is no longer part of the unit (as he cannot be returned by regrowth), so the Grunt is field promoted and becomes a Leader model.

If 3b happened and the Officer was indeed killed:

4b1. The new Leader becomes the unit commander, as when a Leader exists in the unit, he is the unit commander ("Leader", p. 70 and "Unit commander", p.71).
-or-
4b2. The standard bearer, having been chosen as the unit commander, stays the unit commander as long as HE is still part of the unit (this is stated both in "Unit commander", p.71 and "Field promotion", p. 72), so the new Leader is not the unit commander. If and when the standard bearer stops being a part of the unit, the Leader will become the new unit commander and stay so even if the standard bearer becomes a part of the unit again (take up, Seduction / eSevvy's feat expires, whatever).


The way I read the rules, the flow of events is 1 -> 2 -> 3b -> 4b2, as those follow the letter of the rule most closely.
However, in the favour of 3a we can quote that units can have Grunts without having a Leader (Boomhowler and co., Cylena and Nyss hunters), and in the favour of 4b1 we can quote the places I noted, where it says the Leader is the unit commander if he exists.

Obviously, the formation issues are important (they would allow me to place the returned models farther ahead, for example - at least if the returned models are not returned simultaneously, but I will open a thread for that later), but even if the Officer still lives, the question whether the model is a Leader or not matters, as the spell allows restoring only destroyed Grunts. So the field promotion could also play against Morvhanna in that case.

I don't have Prime MkII, so I don't know if the wording on any of these segments were changed, but if this was cleared up in the final rules, I would appreciate a reply.
It is worth noting that the "Field promotion" part is especially confusing, as after the quote I put , the model that leaves is referred to "the destroyed Leader" and also as "it leaves play", and in the case of Officers it also says "If the Officer ... leaves play". Since all these refer to the same case, I assumed they are all shorthand for the wording in the quote I supplied.

The same issue could also rise from Revive or any other spell / effect that says "restore a destroyed Grunt model".

So which is it?

TheUnknownMercenary
02-13-2010, 06:34 PM
The standard bearer would remain the unit leader until it is destroyed at which point you would then promote a grunt to unit leader.
From the Hordes PDF and Prime:



If the unit’s Leader is the unit commander and it leaves play
and there is no Grunt to replace it, or if an Officer is destroyed
and there is not a Leader model in the unit, choose another
model in the unit to become the unit commander. That model
remains the unit commander as long as it is part of the unit.
If that unit commander is destroyed, choose another model to
become the unit commander.

uri19
02-13-2010, 10:27 PM
The standard bearer would remain the unit leader until it is destroyed at which point you would then promote a grunt to unit leader.
From the Hordes PDF and Prime:
You are confusing the terms "Leader" and "unit commander" (to the point of using the hybrid term "unit leader").
The Leader is a specific model (in this case it's the model that was called "Huntsman" in MkI, he's the dude holding his spear over his head =) ), he even has different rules than the Grunts sometimes, such as in the case of Croe's Cutthroats or the Stormblades.
The unit commander is a title that one of the models in the unit must carry at any point, to determine formation, etc. The unit commander can be the Officer, the Leader, the standard, a member of a weapon attachment, and possibly a Grunt (in the cases of units like I mentioned before such as Boomhowler and Co. - or if case 3a is correct).

What you are quoting is what I mentioned in favour of 4b2, so I agree with you on the standard bearer staying the unit commander.
But being a unit commander is aside from becoming the Leader and the field promotion rule. Just like the normal case when you promote a Grunt to become the Leader even when there is another unit commander: when an Officer is in play.

There is absolutely no reason to invoke the field promotion rule when the standard is destroyed, as you say, since the eligibility for promotion either existed before or doesn't exist at all.

Bikko
02-14-2010, 06:17 AM
As long as there is a unit commander on the field you don't field promotion another model. If your unit is knocked down to the standard bearer then he's the commander of the unit. He stays the commander until he dies and there is a grunt to be promoted.

uri19
02-14-2010, 10:25 AM
As long as there is a unit commander on the field you don't field promotion another model. If your unit is knocked down to the standard bearer then he's the commander of the unit. He stays the commander until he dies and there is a grunt to be promoted.
I'm sorry, but that is also incorrect.
Promoting a Grunt to a new Leader is done regardless of whether the new Leader will become the new unit commander as a result of this. This is the case when the new Leader is normally not the new unit commander - which is when an Officer is present. Again from the Field Promotion segment:



Leader models are replaced even if there is an Officer model in the unit.
The eligibilty of the Grunt is not in question here because of the existance of another unit commander, since choosing a new unit commander is a completely separate rule from the Field Promotion rule, which discussed exchanging a Grunt model with the Leader model.

I can see the confusion between the two terms, but do note that "Leader"/"Field Promotion" and "unit commander"/"designating a new unit commander" are TWO SEPARATE TERMS.

The eligibilty of the Grunt to be promoted is in question here solely because of a timing issue which is unclear in the rule's wording - can a Grunt be field promoted ONLY when the leader stops being a part of the unit, or ANY TIME when a Leader is not present?